Talk:Binge drinking

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Amethyst Initiative

I removed a large section related to the Amethyst Initiative since much of it was POV and mostly unrelated to this article. I replaced the section with brief information sourced to a WSJ article and two internal links that will take interested readers to much more detailed info at AI's main article. Flowanda | Talk 23:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict with Alcoholic beverage

This article conflicts with Alcoholic beverage. Here it is stated that legal drinking age in Denmark is 16. In Alcoholic beverage it is stated that it is 15. --Ysangkok (talk) 14:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The internet seems just as confused about it. I've found several pages that claim the drinking age to be 16 and several to be 18. The most conclusive answer I found (If not entirely reliable) is this wikianswers page here (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Whats_the_drinking_age_in_Denmark) which states that one has to be 18 to buy alcohol but there is no legal required age for which to drink it. Where's a Danish lawyer when you need one? 81.101.36.95 (talk) 14:45, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's 16 to buy it in a shop, but 18 to drink in a bar.146.186.189.35 (talk) 17:26, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wizard Stick?

I'm from British Columbia and I've never heard of wizard stick....must be eastern Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.197.133 (talk) 20:49, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of "binge drinking"

Is a college study (as referred to in the article) really sufficient evidence to say 'binge drinking often means 4 - 5 drinks'?

Being that the dictionary definition of "binge" is 'A period of excessive or uncontrolled indulgence in food or drink:' (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/binge) and most rational people would not consider 4 to 5 standard drinks "excessive and uncontrolled" I think this article (currently) propagates the ultra-conservative views of the medical associations, rather than public consensus - because it doesn't highlight that the fact that most people do not define "binge drinking" the way the AMA does (nor the fact that the research that uses AMA definitions would drastically overstate the 'problem' because of this ultra-conservative definition).

Perhaps this would be more balanced with reference to studies that were conducted that defined binge drinking as 'excessive and uncontrolled drinking', rather than 4 - 5 standard drinks in a sitting.XQx (talk) 03:53, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article is in terrible shape and actually needs a full rewrite. To address your point though, this is not generally a liberal versus conservative issue, your point is actually defined by what is considered healthy and what is considered unhealthy via extensive peer reviewed research. If you have references for societal views and cultural views and so forth, please feel welcome to add them. No one seems enthusiastic to develop this article, so please feel welcome to develop the article. What we must be careful not to do is to reinterpret the peer reviewed literaature according to our own, moral, personal opinions etc; see WP:NOR.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 13:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In what universe is four pints of ale in a night considered binge drinking? User Literaturegeek, the issue here is that a portion of the medical establishment (not all of it, judging from the behaviour of many doctors I know) has established a hyper-aggressive definition of binge drinking which they are trying to impose on society. The only effect of this is to make perfectly normal people view the medical establishment as a bunch of loons; if you give silly advice you will be ignored. By the message of the article (which you support), the bulk of English people are raging alcoholics going to an early grave, whereas in fact people have been drinking heavily in many societies since we learnt how to make alcoholic drinks in Sumerian times - there is a lot of evidence for this, literary and archaeological. Get a grip and a sense of proportion! It would be more useful to have an article that is aware of the background of this phenomenon and which tries to compare modern drinking patterns to historical ones, rather than citing hysterical journalism about students getting smashed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.102.120 (talk) 18:09, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In our universe. :) Well, I don't think if someone drinkings 4 pints in one night a few times a month is going to end up brain damaged and alcoholic. It is all about volume and frequency and individual sensitivity. I think you need to appreciate that I can only write an article based on reliable sources and what they say; I have not used any journalist sources, any sources cited to journalist were added by other editors before I came to this article. All sources that I have used are peer reviewed secondary sources from the medical literature. It is a work in progress. You are welcome to find your own reliable sources and summarise them in the article.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 20:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A bit biased and alarmist, no?

Not only is the article much longer that it was a few months ago, much of what has been added is highly debatable, especially the rather novel idea that binge drinking is more neurotoxic than chronic alcoholism, and the some of the stuff about adolescents. There seems to be exaggeration of some of these effects as well. Lots of rat studies are cited that have not been conclusively demonstrated in humans, leading to unwarranted extrapolation, and the levels of alcohol needed to produce some of these effects are unrealistically high in some cases.

The tone appears to be inappropriate for Wikipedia as well.Ajax151 (talk) 02:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments. The article as you have noted has recently went under a big update. What I did was read through all the reviews for the past 10 years on binge drinking on pubmed and summarised them on this article. The article does need some refining. Information on things such as mechanism of action/toxicity will always come from animal studies as a neurotoxic study on humans, especially adolescent humans would never get through ethical approval. However, I will read over the article in the next few days to see if any reviews of animal studies have been used inappropriately. With regard to binge drinking being more neurotoxic than alcoholism; is it your opinion that it is debatable or are there sources that say that it is debatable or come to a different conclusion? Please also note, the article does say that it is regular binge drinking which is worse. I will see if I can improve sourcing to make it clear that it is heavy and regular binge drinking is where the risk of brain damage occurs. What stuff about adolescents do you disagree with? There are human studies and reviews which do find evidence of neurotoxic effects in humans. Please remember this is a work in process and the article is far from being fully developed.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 19:48, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With regard to the article being alarmist; no medical source that I read talked about binge drinking in favourable terms or neutral terms, all were documenting harm. As editors we are meant to reflect what reliable sources say; if reliable sources are all or mostly negative about binge drinking then this is going to be reflected in the article. I do understand and appreciate that many people binge drink during their adolescence and even as adults for recreational purposes, deriving pleasure from doing so and without any long-lasting adverse medical consequences; also the recreational abuse of alcohol is more socially acceptable than say recreational abuse of stimulants or cannabis etc. You are welcome to contribute and add sources if you have them which say binge drinking is relatively safe or sources which have differing viewpoints to existing sources to add balance but be mindful of WP:UNDUE and WP:MEDRS. In a lot of respects alcohol is one of the most toxic recreational drugs of abuse, in terms of organ toxicity and brain damage. The developing central nervous system is especially sensitive to alcohol abuse, with good evidence for fetal alcohol syndrome and emerging evidence for increased risk of neurotoxicity in children and adolescents. The general public unfortunately often view alcohol as "not that bad" because it is a legal recreational drug.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 20:00, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course no medical source would talk about it in favorable or neutral terms. I am not claiming that such behavior is safe, just that in recent years the harms have been exaggerated by various anti-alcohol forces, particularly by "defining down" binge drinking. Four or five drinks in an evening, even occasionally, is a binge? Come on. What about the context or speed of drinking? And the other definition of 0.08 BAC, while it is potentially lethal when behind the wheel or operating machinery, is otherwise not very dangerous. As for the claims about adolescents, I would not doubt that heavy drinking is harmful, especially in early adolescence but what exactly is the threshold? And as far as drinking in late adolescence being significantly more dangerous than for adults, that is not entirely clear either. In terms of neurotoxicity, the only study (Demir et al.) that directly compares those who began abusing alcohol before 20 with those who started after 20 (and controlled for number of years of drinking and amount drunk) showed no significant differences between the groups in terms of long term cognitive impairments.[1][2] Otherwise we are looking at rat studies, and retrospective studies of truly heavy drinkers with no older comparison group, often with small (single or double digit) sample sizes, and these facts need to be known so the reader can understand the limitations of the current research. I made several edits because many of the claims and the tone appeared to be unscientific and/or redundant.Ajax151 (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can see your point, and it's appreciated. Nevertheless, I'd caution you against relying on your own evident knowledge in this area, even if it is meant to tone-down what seem egregious passages. For example, if a reliable source says "X causes Y", and there's no source saying otherwise, we have to write "X causes Y", not "It is believed that X may cause Y", because we have reservations about the way the source expresses itself. We need to find equally good sources that express our doubt and marshal them to show that we should modify the original source. Similarly, a statement "X" from a review or study that is not contradicted elsewhere needs to be written as a fact, not "Some studies/reviews/researchers believe X" – the latter formulation is reserved for statements that contradict other sources' conclusions, since we should then be attributing them as opinion, rather than fact. --RexxS (talk) 22:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ajax, I cannot help what is medically defined as binge drinking. I do not think binge drinking a couple of times a month is likely to cause neurotoxicity. Now heavy binge drinking 2 - 3 times a week over a long period of time probably would cause at least some neurotoxicity. The problem is is that this is my original research. Speed of drinking I think is mentioned in this article and I am sure that you or we could find further sources which discuss speed of drinking. the article does mention drinking alcohol with the result or aim of becoming intoxicated. That study comparing people who were early onset alcoholics versus late onset alcoholics is quite interesting. It was a very small study, it would be interesting to see larger scale studies to see if the results are replicated. It is not appropriate for this article though as this article is on binge drinking, not alcoholism.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 23:13, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The source I mentioned is no less appropriate than the studies of adolescents with alcohol use disorders, whose effects are generalized to binge drinking or even teen drinking in general. As long as age of onset of (binge) drinking is discussed at all in the article, which was not the case a few months ago, the source should be included in the article to avoid giving undue weight to the apparent pseudo-consensus about the effects of age.Ajax151 (talk) 23:33, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, the 0.08 limit is what you might consider a fine definition of drinking as opposed to sipping (well, you might lessen it to 0.05 for the purpose, but you get the idea). To capture the idea of "binge drinking" as present in usual language, i. e. something very much excessive, the limit would need to be far higher - unless of course if you want to pathologize a behavior which is perfectly normal, but which you disagree with because you don't like alcohol.--2001:A61:21B1:F701:B07E:9E6F:F65E:4019 (talk) 22:55, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits

The problem with this edit is that it is a primary source from 1999 being used to cast doubt on a 2009 review paper. Using a primary source which is more than 10 years old to cast doubt on a 2009 review paper is a violation of WP:MEDRS.

Sorry about that. I just fixed it by adding a citation for a 2008 review that discussed the controversy.Ajax151 (talk) 21:57, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This content was deleted even though it was cited to a recent review paper. The reason for deletion was given in edit summary that it was not a world wide view that brief interventions and raising alcohol age reduced alcohol morbidity and harm. Instead what should have been done was if other recent secondary peer reviewed sources existed, they should have been added to give another viewpoint. Please do not remove well sourced content.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 20:46, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I know it has a supposedly reliable source, and I guess we have to agree to disagree on the merits of the claim. The brief intervention part is likely true and is a worldwide view; the drinking age part though is dubious. So I will not attempt to remove it again, but I did clarify it better.Ajax151 (talk) 21:57, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I see wat you are saying. Raising the drinking age may not be the best treatment, who knows, but like I say feel free to add in well sourced differing opinions. We can agree to differ. I deleted this addition. The first source was from 1999 as explained above. The additional source that you added did not reflect the text summary so I deleted it.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 22:17, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can I just add that it can be a confusing process for newer editors when they are confronted with all sorts of acronyms linked to Wikipedia policies. That's particularly true when articles have medical content, because there's a consensus only to use the very best of sources in this area. That results in a real preference for secondary sources – meta-analyses and reviews, or top-quality published medical books – and we have a rule that primary sources (e.g. individual studies) can't be used to contradict a later, secondary source. It's all laid out in WP:Reliable sources (medicine-related articles), but I'll happily do my best to explain anything that isn't clear in there. --RexxS (talk) 22:32, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed it again, this time using a new 2010 review paper (reliable secondary source). No rules against that. Not only does it discuss the 1999 source, but also discusses new research (involving rhesus monkeys) to study age at first drink vis-a-vis later development of alcoholism. Long story short, this new research supports (or more propely stated, fails to reject) the null hypothesis as well. The new source added does not conflict with Wikipedia policy. I was more careful about that this time. Please don't undo my revision again without discussing it on the talk page. Thank youAjax151 (talk) 22:45, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good source and it's appreciated. I hope you don't mind me tweaking the {{cite journal}} templates, but if I can be helpful: all parameters should be lower case; there's no need to supply a url if you give a pmid because the template will use the pubmed url to link the title anyway, unless there's a different url (like Elsever) that can lead to full text; and always supply a pmc if there's a PubmedCentral full text version available - the reader then has the choice of which link to follow. Hope that helps. --RexxS (talk) 23:09, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Good to know.Ajax151 (talk) 23:17, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rats and small sample sizes

The paragraph "However, most studies that have found evidence of significant brain damage from binge drinking were done on rats, or were retrospective studies done on heavy drinkers with alcohol use disorders, often with small sample sizes" is an assertion not made in the source (Courtney 2009). Although it is tempting to analyse a secondary source and then draw a criticism from it, that constitutes original research and it's simply not the way we write articles. If a reliable source can be found that makes the assertions about most studies being on rats, or that the sample sizes were small, then please cite it to support that paragraph. If not, it is likely to be removed. --RexxS (talk) 21:15, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed it. New sources were added, but what I wrote was common knowledge. Rats are not little people, and generalizing from those with alcohol use disorders to those who occasionally have 5 or so drinks is a bit presumptuous. And small sample sizes can bias results as well. Nothing controversial about that.Ajax151 (talk) 21:40, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the "Choose Responsibility" source. Sadly we're not allowed to write wikipedia from common knowledge, and we need to assemble sources, then reflect what they say, citing them if challenged (have a look at the example in WP:OR: "Paris is the capital of France" needs no source because no one is likely to object to it, but we know that sources for that sentence exist). Nevertheless, the conclusion from the source you gave does indeed contradict the implications drawn from rat studies, so it is perfectly proper to give weight to those conclusions. I still couldn't find anything criticising small sample sizes in the studies, but the retrospectives on humans seem compelling - it makes you wonder why anybody does trials on rats if the results have no implications for us. I think there's a point where binge drinking on a regular basis does cross over into alcohol abuse, and some material make eventually be better placed there. But for the moment, as LG says, it's a work in progress. Btw, I don't assume this article should only cover the issue of an occasional 5 drinks; there's a lot of work out there on the effects of binge drinking on an all-too-regular basis, but I guess it's the editors' job to crystallise those sort of distinctions as the article progresses. --RexxS (talk) 22:19, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have been thinking about this and I am not sure that the Choose Responsibility source contradicts anything; the early versus late onset alcoholism brain scans, were only measuring "brain volume". The concerns about adolescents being more sensitive to neurotoxicity were not arguing that they have a higher risk of brain volume loss, but rather the concerns were focused on developmental processes in synapses, and inter-neuronal connections etc. Neurodegeneration and dysfunction can occur without a loss of brain tissue mass, which would require a PET scan to detect. Other problems include it being a very small single study, it being on alcoholics when this article is about binge drinking and Choose Responsibility is not subject to peer review.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 21:58, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I took a look at the source that Choose Responsibility cites and its results seem to focus on hypoperfusion in different areas of the brain, rather than "brain volume", but I think I understand what you are saying. That study is cited by 26 others according to Google Scholar, so it might be useful to look at those to see if other secondary sources reach the same conclusions as CR. If you get a chance, LG, is this something you could do, as it's pushing the limits of my expertise? If you're busy, don't worry, I'll set aside some time this week to try to understand as much as I can from those 26 sources. I agree that CR doesn't display any reputation for peer-review or editorial oversight, but it has a Wikipedia article and is obviously concerned precisely with the topic of the effects of alcohol on the 18-20 year-old group. Bear in mind that here in the UK, I'm used to alcohol being legally supplied to 18 year-olds, so I don't see CR as having a fringe opinion. It's possible that US editors may view it in a different light. Anyway, to be cautious, I think we may be best to explore other reviews for comparison. Would others agree? --RexxS (talk) 23:22, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, I was writing from memory, I should have reread the paper before posting that. Ah 26 studies, I am a bit pushed for time over the next few days. I have to do a submission for funding and it has to be tip top in the recession and cuts in spending climate etc. OH, no I don't think that CR are fringe; actually they do have a point; while reducing the age limit from 21 to 18 may cause some increase in alcohol abuse, I think education and also culture and society's attitude towards alcohol is probably more important with regard to the harm of misuse of alcohol. As you probably know some european countries have lower age limits than the UK but less of an alcohol abuse problem so clearly other factors are important. I don't have a problem with citing the viewpoint of the CR organisation, I was just querying whether their reviews of the peer reviewed literature is reliable as their reviews are not subject to peer review.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 00:10, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The main reason I even brought up that particular study was not about blood flow and volume loss, but long-term performance impairment on neuropsychological tests. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if they cogitate with their adenoids, it is how they perform. And it was the only human study I could find that compared those who began abusing alcohol before 20 with those who did so after. Most studies of binge drinking adolescents do not have an adult comparison group, thus the effects of age have not been adequately tested in humans. And you make a good point about fringe beliefs--outside of the USA, Choose Responsibility's beliefs are not considered fringe. We need to maintain a worldwide view.Ajax151 (talk) 15:43, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is the pathophysiology section really necessary?

The pathophysiology section seems to be redundant (the gist is already mentioned in other sections) and seems a bit too techincal for Wikipedia. Any thoughts?Ajax151 (talk) 23:08, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I know what you're saying (I'm not a medic myself), but there's pretty general agreement that a mechanism or pathophysiology section is required to complete a medically-related article. I guess the point is that Wikipedia is actually used by real physicians as well as read by the lay audience, and anyone can always skip a section they find too technical. Again, there's a manual of style specifically agreed for use in medicine at Manual of Style (medicine-related articles), and recommended guidelines for sections at the Sections part of it. I suppose you could say that if there are sources discussing the mechanism, then we write about it. I'd be tempted to cut LG some slack on repeated information, though. As the article expands, it will duplicate stuff, and there's usually a point at which the editors agree that it's time to copyedit the whole article with a view to culling any redundancy, but let's not rush there yet :) In the meantime, I'm going to review WP:JARGON and later on, I'll try to explain as much as I can of the article in plainer English. Perhaps you'd like to join me in that task? --RexxS (talk) 23:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, and it needs to be shorter as well.Ajax151 (talk) 23:28, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks RexxS. Yes there is some redundancy in the article and I do intend to prune things within a week or 2. There is no need to rush things. The article will still be here tomorrow to edit.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 23:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, no need to rush. Looks like we can agree on something.Ajax151 (talk) 23:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed a few things, but there is still much more to go.Ajax151 (talk) 01:22, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good job, thank you.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 00:11, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Binge drinking...redefine?

Someone earlier stated that this article seems a bit alarmist and I have to agree with that. There is very little talk of binge drinking on university campuses and the level of actual binging that goes on there. This article makes it seem like a few mixed drinks on a Saturday night and you're an alcoholic. Where is the explanation of the effects (or lack thereof) of having a few shots of tequila on weekends or a few times a month? This article's sole purpose (it seems like) is to deter people from having little more than a glass of red at dinner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wickedxjade (talk • contribs) 06:09, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article only recently got a major rewrite and I expect that it will be refined and improved on over time. I did most of the rewrite; what I did was put binge drinking into quotes and searched a medical search engine and read all the review articles on there and summarised them. From what I can tell just about all scholarly including medical sources talk about binge drinking in terms of negative impacts; so it is not so much that the editors here are biased but rather the medical literature is predominantly negative on binge drinking, almost universally so. Try finding a medical source which talks about the safety and benefitial effects of binge drinking and you will see what I mean. While this may seem biased, we can only reflect what reliable sources say. If you feel that the article is biased against binge drinking, you are welcome to find reliable sources and use them to add balance to the article.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 20:14, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think Wickedxjade was trying to say that the definition of binge drinking is flawed, and I agree with that. 4-5 drinks, even once or twice a month, is a binge? Come on! Many people can do so without even getting drunk (and 0.08 BAC is NOT drunk, just pleasantly buzzed, but notably still dangerous if behind the wheel or operating machinery) given enough time to pace themselves. Those who do that get lumped in with those who have, say, 10 drinks in an evening, and/or pound 5+ shots of liquor in a few minutes, which IS truly dangerous (but relatively common in some subcultures) so of course the medical literature would be negative on the entire group. It's just driven by the more extreme drinkers who skew the results. And many who say they only have 4-5 have significantly more than that. I'm not saying that 4-5 drinks is completely safe, and in some contexts can be dangerous, but it seems an arbitrary place to draw the line, and pathologizes relatively normative behavior without taking the context into account. Just my 2 cents, but worth much more.Ajax151 (talk) 14:36, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I understand where you are coming from, in that having 4 or 5 drinks in one session a couple of times per month is not harmful in most instances (except such as driving etc). Similar arguments are made for people who take other recreational drugs. I agree that extreme drinkers are the ones who cause the most harm to themselves and others but this is how the medical literature and health bureaucracies define binge drinking.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 20:02, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Necessity of Expanding the Approach to this Phenomenon

Am I the only person who has looked up Wikipedia's binge drinking page after a night of binge drinking? Perhaps. However, I think it is a mistake to approach binge drinking from a purely medical perspective. Binge drinking is as much a psychological and social phenomenon as it is a medical phenomenon. Considering alternative approaches to binge drinking would very likely result in an article that is not so negatively biased against binge drinking. 173.180.197.244 (talk) 11:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think a lot of people look up these articles when drunk (due to vandalism levels) or after a drinking session. Yes I understand that the article is almost entirely negative on binge drinking which as you seem to know from reading the talk page here is due to the medical literature not talking about it in positive terms. If you have reliable sources which you would like to use to add a different viewpoint for neutrality feel welcome to edit the article.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 20:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Terrible Article

This is really a terrible article. A hysterical diatribe against drinking. No attempt to explore the reasons why its done, for example the need to, well, PARTY! The social release people get while drinking, the ice breaking effects. I totally endorse the comment above. Could we nominate this for Worst Wikipedia Article? Special category: Bias? Opinionated? Dutchdavey (talk) 14:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the article is essentially 100 percent negative on the recreational use of alcohol. The problem is that the medical literature does not discuss binge drinking in positive terms. Other reliable sources such as academic books and the media are similar. If you can find a reliable source which discusses binge drinking in positive terms feel welcome to add it. It is not the article that is biased but the medical literature. Your criticism is misdirected but rather you should direct your criticisms at the medical literature.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 18:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are wrong, the reasons for binge drinking are actually discussed in this section,Binge_drinking#Cause.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 18:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, I found that bit. It was hidden under a PostIt on my screen.

Funnily enough, the Dutch and German articles are much more balanced, though worse written. A basic discussion of the historical origns of binge drinking, together with a piece on its contemporary forms. (Dutchdavey) 167.202.201.3 (talk) 09:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey DutchDavey, welcome back. If there are parts of the german or dutch articles which are reliably sourced which you think could bring neutrality to this article then why not translate these parts and add them to this article? By the way within the next week or two or maybe less I intend to start shifting some of the kindling stuff over to more focused articles, such as kindling (substance withdrawal), which should resolve some of the weight issues given to some viewpoints and additionally it should remove excess technical detail by moving it over to a more technical and focused article. So stay tuned. :)--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 09:38, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Ok, I have moved a lot of content regarding kindling, neurotoxicity and mechanisms to a more relevant article. Hopefully this will address some of the major concerns other editors have raised. As I stated earlier this article was only very recently rewritten and is a work in progress. Feedback is welcome on how the article can be improved. :)--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 21:19, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One small way to improve the neutrality of this article would be to reduce its reliance on what is referred to as "Youth Drinking Rates and Problems: A Comparison of European Countries and the United States (Sources: 2003 ESPAD Survey and 2003 United States Monitoring the Future Survey)" as a source. This document is in fact produced by the U.S. Department of Justice as a justification for maintaining current U.S. legislation on alcohol sale and similar measures. It is not a study itself; it merely repeats certain statistics chosen from proper studies carried out in different countries. However it is used extensively throughout the article, so for example as of right now, the only reference supporting the article section on the country Spain, is this very brief policy paper produced by the U.S. Department of Justice which is discussing how policy should be formed in the USA, and is itself not intended to make observations or recommendations about the situation in Spain at all. The same document is used similarly in five other places in the article. If the sources cited by this policy document are indeed legitimate reliable sources, it would be far better to cite material from them directly for those countries that they consider. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Easier said than done; would probably need to find a reliable source that will enevitably be written in Spanish, a language of which I do not know. I see the text has been moved along with other text to this article, Epidemiology of binge drinking.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 00:04, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Definition

Nowhere in the first paragraph is a clear definition of binge drinking given. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.159.180.63 (talk) 04:13, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is probably because there is really no international consensus on a definition of "binge" drinking. The junk science 5/4 definition began with Henry Wechsler in 1993; before that, a "binge" typically meant a multi-day bender in which the drinker engages in extreme intoxication and/or other reckless behavior.Ajax151 (talk) 00:16, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get it.

This article seems to imply that it's apparently more safe to get drunk and abuse alcohol for long periods of time as opposed to short periods. 71.215.78.77 (talk) 18:12, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Only in some respects. Problematic binge drinking is more damaging to the brain than alcoholism,,, but alcoholism/non-stop drinking more commonly results in damage to say the liver. I have added in some more content that better explains this. See this edit as well as this edit.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 00:59, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. To say that binge drinking is more dangerous than alcoholism is minimizing the disease. It's like we are saying that alcoholism is not so bad after all. It's quite amazing that the medical class states that getting drunk on a single occasion is worst than being addicted to alcohol... when we all hear that alcoholics are addicted because their brain suffered neuro-chemical damage due to the drinking — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.250.110.88 (talk) 18:41, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"It's quite amazing that the medical class states that getting drunk on a single occasion is worst than being addicted to alcohol."
Who or what medical class has said that?--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 21:07, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the article on alcoholism as well as long-term effects of alcohol and this article, you will see that what the articles on wikipedia and the medical science is saying is that all forms of alcohol abuse are destructive but mild to moderate drinking is generally okay for people who have no past history of dependency.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 21:21, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Binge drinking has the propensity to result in brain damage faster as well as more severely than chronic drinking (alcoholism), due to the neurotoxic effects of the repeated rebound withdrawal effects" - that's were I read it. The source is mentioned no nº8. One single study agaisnt several that speak of the neurological effects of alchoolism. Do not say that I misread this article or that I must compare it to the alcoholism article. People who come to this page must have exact information on the subject without consulting outher pages. And what they read here is this - which goes against the commom knoledge that we have on alcoholism. So consider if you should have this isolated study mentioned in this way or if the text is misleading. Remember there are already 2 people under the "wrong impression" that this seens to minimize alcoholism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.94.238 (talk) 23:05, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you feel that the article is not properly representing the sources, some ideas for dealing with this include;
  • Devise a new version of the contested section, and propose it via a semi-protected edit request here;
  • Ask for assistance at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine in helping to make this section of the article better meet WP:MEDRS by properly reflecting appropriate sources;
  • Request unprotection of the page at WP:RFPP so that unregistered users like yourself can edit it;
  • Register a WP:ACCOUNT so that you will soon be able to edit the article yourself --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:16, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Another problem is that it seems to imply that alcoholism and binge drinking are mutually exclusive, which is not true since many alcoholics (especially early-stage ones) drink in binges (and experience frequent, severe hangovers) rather than get continuously drunk 24/7. Coupled with the low redefinition of binge drinking as merely 4/5 drinks, implying that doing so even occasionally is worse for the brain than alcoholism it is rather misleading to say the least.Ajax151 (talk) 19:55, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The alcoholism article discusses the neurotoxic effects of multiple periods of withdrawal. I think the majority of readers would work out that the more severe the binge drinking, the more severe the brain damage and risk of brain damage.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 19:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Which units?

When this article references units of alcohol, it omits to mention which type of units it is referring to. As noted elsewhere on wikipedia, the size of a unit can vary drastically from country to country. A translation into grams would help. 217.42.22.218 (talk) 20:23, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't all binge behavior be combined into one article?

Wikipedia has separate articles for binge drinking, binge eating, and drug binges. Doesn't all binge behavior have many underlying characteristics in common? It would make more sense to have one article about binge behavior, rather than separate articles for each type of binge behavior. Cwgmpls (talk) 17:15, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but most of the reliable sources (or at least, the ones used here) treat them separately. So it would be very difficult to arrange a cohesive treatment of the overall subject. In addition, a combined article might be too long to be practical. Possibly there needs to be (or already is?) a separate article covering binge behaviour in general? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:35, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

POV-check

While the article has factual content, it is phrased in a non-POV manner. It takes for granted that the subject matter is wrong and harmful, rather than merely asserting it exists. As expressed therein, not all instances of the activity result in harm or wrongdoing, yet it seems judgemental and attempts to proscribe the behaviour rather than describe it. It would benefit from a rewrite in a more NPOV fashion. wolfe (talk) 09:32, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your views on the article and I can see where you are coming from. It is true that a lot of people binge drink to a certain level without ever experiencing any demonstratable medical or other adverse consequences and if a source addressing this point can be found please feel welcome to add it. Much of the article summarises the medical 'facts' and talks about the harm. Sure it is a recreational drug and people binge drink for pleasure, but the problem is society as a whole and importantly reliable sources and authoritative bodies from what I have read always describe binge drinking as a 'wrong' or harmful behaviour. Wikipedia summarises reliable and preferably recent sources and what they say. It is easy to request a rewrite but if there are no reliable sources (see WP:MEDRS for what constitutes reliable sources) that talk favourably about binge drinking then the article IS infact neutral, (see WP:NPOV to understand how wikipedia defines neutrality). Seeing as all reliable sources that I have read describe binge drinking/recreational intoxicating use of alcohol as being harmful and wrong/antisocial, I see no reason why a banner should be used to flag the article as biased. Unless evidence (in the form of reliable sources) is shown that the article unfairly describes binge drinking I think the banner should be removed. I have no problem with the article being made less 'biased' if reliable sources can be found to do so and you are welcome to edit and fix any errors you see, using reliable sources but we shouldn't rewrite an article because some editors or readers WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT.--MrADHD | T@1k? 23:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is plenty of authority linking binge drinking to violence and death. Not that something horrible happens every time someone gets drunk. User:Fred Bauder Talk 00:47, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Possible bias with introduction?

The bulk of the first three introductory paragraphs are about the harm of binge drinking. I am concerned that, while accurately cited and peer reviewed, that this may represent a bias towards a single aspect of the topic.

Maybe something about binge drinking being filling and fun? User:Fred Bauder Talk 14:12, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Adding in content about the recreational effects of pleasure and social benefits would be of value.--MrADHD | T@1k? 21:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Extremely biased

I agree with the people who find this article judgmental, alarmist, and POV. Within the next month or two I'll be researching the context of the statements in the article (such as the one I deleted), as well as how much of the damage is really permanent, as the article suggests, and the extreme weight put on health consequences. Discussion and collaboration are appreciated. Le kasydzu (talk) 06:31, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What you will find is that there is a scientific consensus that binge drinking is very harmful to health, that alcohol is a potent neurotoxin when abused excessively and is a major cause of strokes etc. The statement that you tried to delete is actually a good explanation for why people complain on this talk page about the scientific POV that this article reflects. Most alcohol abusers do not appreciate the nature of the dangers of binge drinking. See WP:MEDRS to help you editing this article.--MrADHD | T@1k? 21:20, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ordinary drinking and binge drinking are entirely different. User:Fred Bauder Talk 23:27, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I did a quick web search and it seems to me that this article does not reflect the scientific consensus at all. Most of the cited sources are not even the original studies. The mounting consensus in the field is that even severe long term alcohol abuse does not cause significant irreversible damage. Here are a few studies conducted on HUMANS not rats and actually published in leading scientific journals backing what i just wrote: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16930216: No long term impairment in abstinent alcoholics. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9500305: Metastudy. No cognitive impairment at all in humans below a dosis of 17 standard drinks per Week. http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/130/1/36.short http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/34/4/567.short: Quick Recovery of alcohol induced damages in the brain. It seems to me that this article is alarmist cherry picking of bad science. Also the articles suggestion that the withdrawal episodes do the damage to the brain is outdated. Please include in the article that there is strong evidence against the irreversibility of alcohol induced brain damage and against any impairments caused by recreational alcohol consumption(less than 17 standard drinks per Week), binge drinking or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:A2C0:29B0:7029:91FE:9A60:7AD5 (talk) 22:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. Most if not all of your sources state that alcohol does damage or impairs brain function but states that most (not all) of these impairments are reversible. Most if not all of your sources are on alcoholism and not binge drinking. Sustained regular heavy binge drinking is more damaging to the brain the non-stop drinking of alcohol. Your references relate to the alcoholism article rather than this one. You need to provide references on bi he drinking specifically. Withdrawal related brain damage is not outdated. In fact excitotoxicity and seizure related brain damage and kindling etc is a firm well established scientific fact not just in relation to alcohol but also epilepsy and other disease states.--WholeNewJourney (talk) 18:31, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Photo removed

I accidently made this edit without leaving a full edit summary. My rationale for removing the photo is that it seems to be a fairly serious violation of WP:BLP to display a photo of a clearly recognizable person labeling them a binge drinker without any kind of supporting evidence whatsoever. The use of this photo could realistically have very negative consequences for the individual, and there seems no good reason to include it. Nick-D (talk) 05:34, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove page protection

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Page protection should be used to address problems and not remain in place indefinitely without regular review. I am not sure why this page was move protected. Here is a 2008 record that I found in the history log. I did not see any discussion about this since. I think it was an oversight that protection has been here for so long. If anyone knows more then please speak up. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:29, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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In the United States, sometimes the terms "extreme drinking" or "industrial-strength binge drinking" describe a more severe form of (single-evening) binge drinking; it is often defined as ten or more standard American drinks on a single occasion (sometimes as eight drinks for women).[17][18] If done over 2 to 3 hours, a typical adult would have a peak BAC of at least 0.20%.[citation needed]

This seems to be discussing information that is already addressed in the paragraph above. Does it add anything further or is it likely to mislead and confused readers. If it is to be retained then perhaps body weight needs to be factored into the paragraph and this could be supported by a Table which outlines bodyweight/ standard drink consumption and resulting blood alcohol concentrations

I would suggest we remove this all together

Jab094 (talk) 03:50, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How many drinks

Here it is stated that 4/5 drinks make a binge... To my mind comes if the guy ever drunk a single drop of alcohol in his life 4/5 drinks make a person be... well be normal at all like I mean in a binge is at least 12 drinks a day for a guy that does not normally drink... for a professional drunkard it may be a bottle or two scotch and call it a normal day after all... Like it's all filled with rotten pseudo-christian values without even a legitimation of those moral tartufferies — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lel789 (talk • contribs) 21:56, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Picture at top of Article

How does this relate to binge drinking. It just shows a drunk man.--83.136.45.136 (talk) 20:59, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It seems a percentage is missing in the section of ==Health effects==

“Males who drink more than 35 units of alcohol per week report being physically hurt as a result of alcohol, and 15% report physically hurting others as a result of their drinking.” What percentage of those males who drink more than 35 units of alcohol per week that get physically hurt? I'm now translating this article into traditional Chinese. Thanks in advance for any who can help.ThomasYehYeh (talk) 06:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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