Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red/Archive 108

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Women in Red Continental Challenge - Oct 2020 - Dec 2021

The Women in Red Continental Challenge ran from October 2020 through December 2021. Please note any miscalculations were generated by me from a manually compiled spreadsheet. I have posted the complete table at talk:WikiProject Women in Red/Metrics . WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 20:04, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Continent Month Articles
Europe Apr-21 264
Europe Jun-21 212
Europe May-21 208
Latin America Aug-21 174
Asia Nov-20 165
Oceania Oct-21 139
Latin America Jul-21 122
Africa Jan-21 111
Asia Oct-20 111
Oceania Nov-21 89
Africa Mar-21 78
Asia Dec-20 75
Latin America Sep-21 74
Oceania Dec-21 67
Africa Feb-21 60

WomenArtistUpdates: The astounding success of this contest was largely due to your untiring efforts to prepare attractive meetup pages, monitor progress, display results and distribute awards.--Ipigott (talk) 20:42, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Ipigott And you are in the rarefied company of a quintet of prolific editors :) WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 01:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Ditto WomenArtistUpdates - thank you SO MUCH for all your dedication and organisation - so much of the success is down to you! AMAZING! Lajmmoore (talk) 10:48, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Lajmmoore! and a huge hat tip to you for all your contributions on every continent! WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 19:41, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Anna K.Nelson

The Society for Historians of American Foreign Relations has created an award for archival excellence in honor of Anna K. Nelson. She gets a nice write-up by the American Historical Association [1], AU holds her papers [2] [3], interview [4], WaPo (local) obit. Is there any more? Eddie891 Talk Work 20:22, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Nomination to be on the Assassination Records Review Board. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 20:39, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Tina Rivers Ryan

This new BLP stub has been nominated for deletion but I think it is notable. If anyone has extra time, it could possibly use a few more citations and details to help in the AFD decision making process. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 05:29, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Women in Green report for 2021

Just a quick report to let folks know what WikiProject Women in Green got up to this past year: in 2021, WiG members submitted a total of 57 GA nominations related to women and women's works (53 passed, 4 waiting review). We reviewed 37 GA nominations relating to women or women's works (34 passed, 3 failed as not yet meeting criteria), and also submitted 4 successful FA nominations. We welcomed 19 new members over the course of the year, and successfully hosted our first GA editathon event in October 2021 (with a theme of women's rights), in which experienced GA editors and newer participants worked together to improve articles. We're hoping to organize another two editathons later in 2022. Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 16:39, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

That's an excellent record of your 2021 activities. Maybe we should put together a similar summary of what Women in Red achieved last year.--Ipigott (talk) 21:28, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, Alanna the Brave, for the report, and congratulations on the accomplishments! --Rosiestep (talk) 14:40, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Female animals

Hi all. I just wanted to ask, are we including female animals in WiR too? I only ask as I created Rosa (cow) today and I was wondering if it was under the project's auspices. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 15:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

I can only speak for myself here, but that seems like a clear no to me. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi God Save the Queen!. I agree with Headbomb. In August I wrote about three fillies and mares that won the Melbourne Cup, but did not feel it appropriate to tag as WIR on the talk pages, nor list on a WIR meetup page.--Oronsay (talk) 18:47, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red report for 2021

Inspired by the Women in Green report above, I have put together some of the principal WiR results for 2021.

  • Overall the percentage of women's biographies increased from 18.67% in January to 19.10% at the end of the year; there were 24,787 new biographies of women although the majority of these were not created specifically under Women in Red. By the end of the year, there were 355,957 biographies of women on the English Wikipedia.
  • Our WiR metrics pages record a total of 26,805 articles created in 2021, 3,301 less than the 30,106 created in 2020. This can be explained by our discontinuing manual additions to the lists from February 2021, subsequently relying fully on bot-listed results.
  • Membership according to our mailing lists was 1,185 including 114 members who joined in 2021. (These figures may not fully reflect membership as a few members have requested removal from the lists while a number of non-members have added their names.) About half of those listed are no longer active.
  • A total of 5,722 articles were listed as new or improved on our meetup pages, of which 2,080 were on #1day1woman, 1,598 from the Continental Contest (Africa, Europe, Latin America and Oceania), 1,584 under other monthly priorities and 460 in connection with our year-long emphasis on Women's rights. The most popular topic was our three-month-long Olympics & Paralympics with 1,185 new or improved articles of which 195 were subsequently deleted.
  • The most popular monthly priority was Women writers in September with 225 new or improved articles, the least popular Gender studies in April with only five articles listed.
  • According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/DYK, over 500 articles tagged with a Women in Red banner were highlighted on the Main Page as DYKs. For example 105 of those under #1day1woman were displayed as DYK. Many articles were also displayed on the Main Page under In the news.
  • Articles created under WiR and subsequently ranked FA or GA can be seen at Women in Green.

These results may be useful in discussing priorities for future planning.--Ipigott (talk) 12:52, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much for this interesting report, Ipigott. Appreciate the work you did to pull it together, and yes, we should consider the findings as we plan events this year. --14:39, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
(copying from Women writers talk page) Rosiestep: As soon as I saw Alanna the Brave's report for 2021, I though we should have one too. As we have all the data, it's simply a matter of extracting and summarizing the most important items. (Hope my arithmetic was OK.) Like you, I was pleased to see that Women Writers did so well but was surprised at how many new articles were listed at #1woman1day rather than under our other monthly priorities, many of which were really disappointing. While our monthly events provide minor improvements in our coverage of unexplored areas, it's pretty obvious that topics such as artists, writers and STEM continue to be the most popular. On the basis of our Continental Contest, it looks as if we should start planning another competition along similar lines. I was wondering if we could put something together on award winners (based on generally accepted notable awards) or perhaps on women by language: not just the major world languages such as Spanish, Arabic, Mandarin, Hindi, French, German, Portuguese, etc., but by the relatively minor languages in the developing countries, including those of indigenous peoples. Looking for inspiration on how this could be presented.--Ipigott (talk) 14:59, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
I think language-based themes would be really good - what really got me hooked on editing was the 'Arab World' theme in 2019. There is also a suggestion on the Ideas page, for a Francophone theme from @Sahaib3005:. Lajmmoore (talk) 10:21, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

List of your articles that are in Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors

See also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red/Archive 80 § List of your articles that are in Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors

A couple of articles are in need of some reference cleanup. Basically, some short references create via {{sfn}} and {{harvnb}} and similar templates have missing full citations or have some other problems. This is usually caused by templates misuse or by copy-pasting a short reference from another article without adding the full reference, or because a full reference is not making use of citation templates like {{cite book}} (see Help:CS1) or {{citation}} (see Help:CS2). To easily see which citation is in need of cleanup, you can check these instructions to enable error messages (Svick's script is the simplest to use, but Trappist the monk's script is a bit more refined if you're interested in doing deeper cleanup). See also how to resolve issues.

The following articles could use some of your attention

To do
  1. Hannah Arendt
  2. Ednorah Nahar
  3. Ellen Atkinson
  4. Ethel Jackson Morris
  5. Evelyn Roth
  6. Fanny Grattan Guinness
  7. Graciela Salicrup
  8. Jessie Jack Hooper
  9. Julia Stephen
  10. Jyoti Gogte
  11. List of South Dakota suffragists
  12. Margaret Radcliffe
  13. Mirra Alfassa
  14. National Woman Suffrage Association
  15. Sayuri Yōko
  16. Virginia Woolf
  17. Women's liberation movement
  18. Yehudit Harari
Done
  1. 1917 Bath riots
  2. Andrea Ar Gouilh
  3. Barbara Engel (historian)
  4. Behiye Sultan
  5. Bertha Sophia Menzler-Peyton
  6. Caroline Starr Balestier Kipling
  7. Daisy Cocco De Filippis
  8. Dorothy Vaughan
  9. Dolores Cabrera y Heredia
  10. Eileen Gibb
  11. Eleanor Keaton
  12. Elina González Acha de Correa Morales
  13. Elisa Brătianu
  14. Frances Elizabeth Barrow
  15. Françoise Bernard
  16. Haru M. Reischauer
  17. Jang Gye-hyang
  18. Jane Withers
  19. June Mathis
  20. Katcheri
  21. Kaʻiulani
  22. List of suffragists and suffragettes
  23. Louisa Wade Wetherill
  24. María Currea Manrique
  25. Marta Salgado
  26. Masako Nakata
  27. Nina Petrova
  28. Ochy Curiel
  29. Pro-Emancipation Movement of Chilean Women
  30. Richardis von Stade
  31. Sara Braun
  32. Shirley Temple filmography
  33. Winifred Holt
  34. Yelena Stempkovskaya
  35. Zoë Porphyrogenita

If you could add the full references to those article/fix the problem references, that would be great. Again, the easiest way to deal with those is to install Svick's script per these instructions. If after installing the script, you do not see an error, that means it was either taken care of, or was a false positive, and you don't need to do anything else. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:32, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Virginia Woolf has two. One is simple, the 2nd complex. Possibly unsupported fact on Lee 2015. I couldn't locate it on the archive.org book. scope_creepTalk 16:09, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

WIR Instagram - 1000+ followers

Hello folks! In social media news, I noticed that the Women in Red instagram account passed 1000 followers over the holidays! Lajmmoore (talk) 11:49, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Fantastic, Lajmmoore!!--Rosiestep (talk) 16:42, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Problem with Join button on our January invitation

I have just been informed that the Join button on our January invitation does not work. It works on the original of the invitation at Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Outreach/2022 but the access no longer works on the distributed versions (as can be seen at January_2022_Women_in_Red on this page) although the code seems to be identical. I thought this would offer an easier way for people to join the project as I have been told it is sometimes difficult to find the membership box on our main WiR page when using mobiles or reduced screen display sizes. Any suggestions as to what we should do about this? All I can think of at the moment is an apology in the February invitation. I apologize myself for the trouble this has caused.--Ipigott (talk) 11:05, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Ipigott, no apology necessary. It was a good idea. If we never try new things, where would we be? We tried it; it didn't work; we'll try something else with the next invitation. Creative ideas welcome from one and all. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:46, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

J. K. Rowling delisting as FA

I realize this project is not primarily concerned with FA articles but as J. K. Rowling is among the most frequently accessed bios on women (almost 60,000 page views on 1 January), I thought that perhaps some contributors to WiR might like to see if we cannot prevent its delisting. One of the problems mentioned is instability but this seems to be a result of differing opinions on her recent statements. In my opinion, such problems should not lead to the rapid delisting of FA bios about women. We have considerable experience with women writers. Perhaps we can help out here.--Ipigott (talk) 19:15, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Not sure how to fix a content dispute going on months due to Rowling's actions. She's the one creating the instability herself. And I do rather agree with the people pointing out that the FA passing was 13 years ago and the articles was less than half the size it is now, resulting in a lot of unreviewed content for FA standards. SilverserenC 19:48, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
I’m not a featured article contributor but I’ve warned people in the past that this could happen. People are so bent on their own agendas that they forget this a BLP. Perhaps Discretionary Sanctions could get the political fighting in check. Trillfendi (talk) 21:00, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
That's a take lacking in WP:AGF, Trillfendi, and comes across as authoritarian (Redacted), if you don't mind me saying. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:03, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
Ever since at least December 2019 (that's when I started noticing an uptick), people have been using this article as a vessel to debate about her political views and everything against neutrality. They even put TERF in her lead. This is one of the most notable authors modern history and editors have reduced her to "TERF" because of a tweet. So if Karlie Kloss, who isn't even a political figure at all, has sanctions on her article because of someone she is related to by marriage, I don't see why not for someone who is overtly giving her political opinions frequently. Trillfendi (talk) 00:37, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
She's made her political views her primary identity over the past several years and almost all of the news coverage in that time period has been about those views. While her authorship is her primary notability, her ongoing notability after the period of time/history of making said books and movies seems like it will be about her anti-LGBT stances. How many years of continued news coverage about her political views is required before including it in the lede, do you feel? SilverserenC 01:08, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
@Silver seren: I think the way it is phrased now is probably as good as it's going to get for the foreseeable future though it still doesn't please everybody, it seems. Trillfendi (talk) 20:19, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
I think it's important to note that the first, major concern outlined in the FAR was a lack of literary analysis of her writings, a major omission considering her most notable occupation is being an author. Regardless of the instability in the article regarding her political views, I do not think reviewers will endorse keeping this an FA unless the literary analysis is added. Z1720 (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
I would suggest that a separate article for the HP series (Literary analyses of Harry Potter?) may be appropriate, but an overview certainly at Rowling's article. I have written sections on the analysis of films, but I assume that such an overview would also focus on her overall literary styles and themes? Maybe Literary style of J. K. Rowling may also be apt, given her large body of work? What I'm saying is more consideration needs to be given to that, which will outlast a FAR. Kingsif (talk) 01:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
"She's made her political views her primary identity over the past several years and almost all of the news coverage in that time period has been about those views." - the second part is certainly true, but I very much doubt the first is. She has continued to write, and I'm sure would very much rather the media focused on her recent literary output. But they aren't too interested in it, and instead focus on her few public comments on trans issues. This btw is not usually considered a political issue as such in the UK by the way, any more than abortion rights. Johnbod (talk) 15:23, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
She knows about the controversy, obviously. If it were true that she "would very much rather the media focused on her recent literary output" then she wouldn't keep fanning the flames. So instead it appears that she likes using the soapbox her literary prominence provides. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:18, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
That seems highly unfair. Any comment she makes expressing her views is seized on by social media and the media, and actually she makes pretty few. That shouldn't be seen as "fanning the flames". I think she often rules out discussing the topic in interviews - or certainly nothing on it appears. Johnbod (talk) 14:45, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have contributed at FA some with opera articles (I worked on improving Rinaldo, Carmen, and L'incoronazione di Poppea during their FA reviews). I have contributed as a reviewer on some biography pages, although not BLPS. I concur that there are coverage gaps that need to be filled to meet FA. Normally, I would suggest highlighting those in a review and working to improve the article through editing to get it whipped into shape and re-pass the review. Unfortunately, I don't think that is possible with this article. I have to agree with delisting the Rowling article because of instability and edit warring that has lasted over a year per criteria 1E at Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. Rowling has chosen to express controversial opinions repeatedly in public forums, and this has made her a divisive figure. Even if we resolve the current edit warring issues, I think its likely the page will not remain stable for long. Rowling will inevitably make another controversial post on Twitter which will cause another media storm which will in turn lead to further edit warring and instability on the page. Rinse, Recycle, Repeat. I really think we need to delist and wait to do another FA review until the page has calmed down and remained stable for at least a year. I don't think a year of calm is likely to happen any time in the near future.4meter4 (talk) 00:40, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Request granted

Just a word to let you all know that thanks to Z1720 we have been granted some extra time to work on improving the article, in particular by adding a section on literary analysis within the next week. I'll start putting something together myself in my user space as soon as time permits. Anyone with suitable experience interested in helping me along should let me know here or on my talk page. I'll then be able to keep you posted on progress.--Ipigott (talk) 16:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you all for these supportive comments and special thanks to AleatoryPonderings for making such a constructive start on a new "Literary work" section within the article itself. As a result, there is obviously no further need for me to begin a draft in my user space as any further contributions can now be made to the article. The current additions should reduce the possibility of delisting and provide more time for further improvements.--Ipigott (talk) 07:42, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

doi:10.1057/9780230279711_6 was mentioned at FAR as a source that still needed adding; the book itself (doi:10.1057/9780230279711) seems widely cited and a good general summary of HP criticism. I'm getting tired of summarizing HP litcrit on a deadline so if someone else has access to Springer (publisher) through a university or WP and would like to add from this book, it would be appreciated. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
I have access: I'll try to do some work. I think it's somewhat inevitable that I go from being a reviewer to a writer on this one anyway. Also happy to share a pdf. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

WMF's 2022 equity landscape pilot & consultation

This may interest some of you: m:Global Data and Insights Team/Movement Data/Equity Landscape/Pilot & Consultation. --Rosiestep (talk) 23:13, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Lani Guinier

Very sorry to hear about Lani Guinier passing. If anyone is up for working on an ITNRD, do join in. Could use more on her scholarship, and some citations are missing (especially in the honors section.) Thanks all. Innisfree987 (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Hélène Bergès

Hélène Bergès, a French biologist, has been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hélène Bergès. Normally here I would say, go view the AfD, participate if you have an opinion, etc. But really what this one needs is not so much participation in the AfD (although that would be helpful) but cleanup and sourcing to make the article more fit for keeping. Right now it's in a sad unsourced state that goes a long way to justify taking it to AfD. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:23, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Good, do you think, David Eppstein? SilverserenC 19:46, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Much better, thanks! —David Eppstein (talk) 19:54, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Smithsonian "Women in Science" edit-a-thon this month

The Smithsonian is holding a "100 Women in Science" Wikipedia edit-a-thon on January 20th at 1pm EST (6pm UTC). I thought I'd mention it here in case anyone is interested - you can read more about it here and the event link is here.

I'm not sure which 100 women they're focusing on (apparently they have already made wikidata items for them), but there may be some crossover with our year-long Climate initiative. - Whisperjanes (talk) 20:54, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Roslyn Fuller

While doing a little poking around on Lani Guinier (Innisfree987 did their usual stellar work there), I noticed a brief reference to Roslyn Fuller. I tried to find some decent sources and good ones are difficult to find. That surprised me, because she has two books published by reputable publishers: Beasts and Gods and In Defence of Democracy.

The article was kept at AfD in 2009, following, among other things, a weak keep !vote from David Eppstein. I was considering nominating it again but wanted to see if anyone could find some decent sources before I do. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 04:31, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm confused, AleatoryPonderings, on why you would think about nominating her for deletion. There's a bunch of coverage of her books, particularly the second one. And I'm fairly certain most if not all of the sources I'm about to list are already in the article.
And that was just from a basic Google search. I didn't use ProQuest or anything else. SilverserenC 04:55, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
I hadn't seen the Catholic Herald review, which is good, as is the LA Review of Books review. The WaPo review is not actually a review by WaPo, but a blog hosted at WaPo, and the Silicon Republic and University Times pieces are interviews or essentially interviews. I'm not sure whether Hamilton Review of Books is reliable. Hence my thinking notability was borderline. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 05:03, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
No, it's a column hosted at WaPo, which is most of their reviews and non-political articles. And the Silicon Republic article is an article about her, her background, and her views for the political position she's running for. And there's plenty more news coverage about her and the things she's done outside of her books. I just focused on the two books you mentioned. And didn't even look for academic journal reviews of them. For example, here's (Page 46) a review in The Law Society Gazette of the textbook she wrote. SilverserenC 05:18, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Nowadays I'd be likely to go with a stronger keep on the basis of WP:AUTHOR and the published book reviews of her books. Along with the ones listed above there's a mini-review of Atak in Books Ireland at [14] and a review by Atack of Beasts and Gods at History of Political Thought at [15]. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:24, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
I agree that it's still pretty borderline and the interviews do nothing to establish notability (per longtime consensus), but having reviews of multiple books is supposed to be essentially an automatic NAUTHOR pass. JoelleJay (talk) 04:15, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, so no second AfD nomination on this one. Hard to see the notability through the promo atm, so pruning help would be appreciated. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 05:42, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Bice Brichetto

I was reading the article of Iris Love and came across the name of artist and designer Bice Brichetto, a woman Love had a relationship with. I can’t seem to find much on a simple google search. Does she appear to have any notability? I can’t even seem to find an obit. Thriley (talk) 05:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm, they seemed to have had an exhibition at Galleria S. Croce, Florence, and worked as a costume designer https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZRqK9010Z1AC&pg=PA93&dq=Bice+Brichetto&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiGvJnNyqn1AhX8Q0EAHbgSCCEQ6AF6BAgLEAI & https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UbYyEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA82&dq=Bice+Brichetto&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiGvJnNyqn1AhX8Q0EAHbgSCCEQ6AF6BAgGEAI and that one production of the Barber of Seville (?) they worked with Zeferelli. If you a google scholar search there's quite a lot more though. Lajmmoore (talk) 11:27, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

ListeriaBot fixes in the Community Wishlist Survey

I have created a proposal for the Community Wishlist Survey to fix ListeriaBot memory issues: meta:Community Wishlist Survey 2022/Bots and gadgets/Fix ListeriaBot memory issues. Voting phase will be January 28 – February 11, 2022. MarioGom (talk) 19:52, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Good call. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:02, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Yes, thank you! Do we need to do anything prior to voting to support? Innisfree987 (talk) 20:14, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, MarioGom, for taking this initiative although from the related discussion there already seem to be problems. It would be interesting to find out whether Magnus Manske is under some kind of constraint to limit computer time for ListeriaBot or whether he feels long lists with various criteria should simply not be supported. It's interesting to see that MusikAnimal (WMF) has actually suggested that if the problem cannot be solved by adjustments to ListeriaBot, it might be necessary to create a new tool.--Ipigott (talk) 15:19, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

can anyone who knows Arabic help?

Does anyone here know enough Arabic to negotiate Arabic wikipedia? It looks to me as though https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q27896772 is the same Fatima as https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7489675 ? If that's right, I think there are correspondng Arabic WP pages which need to be merged, to allow the wikidata pages to then also be merged. But I am out of my depth here! Dsp13 (talk) 22:57, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Dsp13 You could try asking in English at the Arabic version of Wikipedia:Embassy. TSventon (talk) 03:32, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
I've pinged @ArabicWikipedia on twitter - https://twitter.com/ArabicWikipedia - which seems to be an active account. https://twitter.com/Tagishsimon/status/1480749492869738496 --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:55, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Thank you to both of you! I didn't know about the embassies - useful! Dsp13 (talk) 17:23, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
The issue's been picked up at ar-wiki - https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%D9%8A%D9%83%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%A7:%D8%B3%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9#Possible_duplicate_articles . --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:34, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

June Preston

Hi Folks!! I wonder if any is interested in try to help on the child actor/star June Preston article. A coi editor who Preston's daughter was trying to update the article and preserve her memory and it reached the coin noticeboard. The article was ce'd down to almost nothing as it was wasn't referenced. Its coming back now, but I wonder if anybody could do a deep search and add a biographical section. A paragraph would do. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. scope_creepTalk 16:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I did a ProQuest search of many publications (Los Angeles Times, New York Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, Variety, Billboard, etc.) and searched the archives of the Metropolitan Opera, San Francisco Opera, Lyric Opera of Chicago, etc. I write on opera singers regularly, and it would be unusual/impossible for a working American opera singer not to have coverage in those publications during that era. I didn't get anything substantial. It appears she only had one film role of note, the Anne of Green Gables film, and then appeared as an actress in a bunch of small parts in which she didn't even get a billing in the credits. The opera content by the coi editor was not accurate. I went through the performance archives of the Metropolitan Opera which are comprehensive. She never performed with the company. I did find some records of performances with minor institutions, but they were all press releases written by the artist or her publicist and lack independence (the Beethoven's Ninth Saint Louis article for example is a standard press release bio and not a review). With zero critical reviews and independent coverage of her work as a soprano, and a bunch of material that was easy to prove false, I think this article may be a candidate for deletion.4meter4 (talk) 16:37, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Note: She was never a star. Unnamed role in a feature film, and uncredited roles in short films. Softlavender (talk) 02:04, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
    I did a cursory search on Google Books for the string "June Ravich soprano" (NB: she went by "June Preston", but the search turned up locations where the names were adjacent), which turns up a handful of items that are a.) behind paywalls, and b.) in Spanish (which I do not speak), as well as a passing mention in Opera News of 1952 which I can check (we have a near-complete archive). I also tried searching the database of the Teatro Colon, to no avail. Seems to me she may have had a singing career largely tied to her husband's opera company, with little independent notice. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 02:19, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
I did a search through my normal sourcing. American Film Institute only lists Anne of Green Gables. AFI normally lists even the most incidental appearances by an actor. Turner Classic Movies lists that one plus Our Gang Follies of 1938 (1937). UCLA Film and Television Archives has nothing on her. The Paley Center for Media, has nothing. AllMovie only mentions the Anne of Green Gables. IBDB (Internet Broadway Database) mentions one minor role in a 1925 stage play "Bringing Up Father" than ran for less than 3 weeks. Sorry to come up empty, but there's just nothing out there I can find. — Maile (talk) 03:02, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Thanks both of you. By the way, in 1925 she apparently wasn't even born yet, so that wouldn't be her. Also, her "husband", if he was ever really that and if so for however long, absconded with the funds of the Latin American tour, leaving all of the singers in the lurch down there, and was apparently never heard from again, as far as I can tell. Softlavender (talk) 06:50, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

OMG, I cannot believe what I am actually reading on this page. I AM June Preston's Daughter! It sicken me to read some of this. I just can't' believe it SoftLavender really?. I literally have a trunk of my Mom's press both film and opera. Anyone on this page that lives in California, is welcome to come to my home (email me) I'm not kidding!!! and see if for yourself, (its a principle now) I am NOT a lier! And YES she DID toured with The Metropolitan Opera, I have the newspaper articles and the program and reviews in newspapers! And by the way you mention "Minor role" in 1925 my mom wasn't even born yet she was born in 1928 so YOUR facts are wrong too. And by the way... Anyone who knows anything about the 20's, 30's and 40's is that child stars were contracted and a lot worked uncredited so that is a fact for you as well. For example, my Mom was in "Christmas In July" (it states it in print in a newspaper which I have, she is also front center in the "movie still" which I have, but is not listed in the credits (that is the way things were)!!! If she wasn't a star like you suggest, why would she have over 50 manufacturing lines (yes that is in print too and I have it) I also have dozens of June Preston dresses hanging in one of my rooms, I would do anything for one of you to come over to my home and see for yourself so you can eat your words (those of you insinuating she is a nobody). I'm beyond offended with your insinuations that my mom was not a film actress our a well established opera singer (i have reviews from around the world, posters, photos, programs from all over the world). Before you claim she is no one and that I am lying for some reason why dont you ask me for proof. Which I have. I can take photos of everything I have just said and send them on this page! Your "ProQuest" and whatever else searches are not the end all be all! You want proof, let me know and I will send it to you! Have ANY of you gone to her Pinterest Pages? This is a fraction of what I have! If you don't believe, take a look at both of those pages. Now, what do you want me to send you as proof first and how? how do I put a picture on this page? just tell me and I will send them all! then you will get your proof! Pinterest page: Actress: https://www.pinterest.com/sabmeows/june-preston-famous-film-child-star/ Opera: https://www.pinterest.com/sabmeows/june-preston-opera-singer/ SabrinaIdoonie (talk) 00:24, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:Verifiability. We still need reliable sources for information. Also, pinterest is not a reliable source.
And I'm pretty sure they're not saying she's a complete nobody, but simply not notable enough for Wikipedia. Read this. – AssumeGoodWraith (talk | contribs) 01:56, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
@Idoonie and Softlavender: pinging – AssumeGoodWraith (talk | contribs) 01:57, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
Idoonie, child stars from the exact same era -- Shirley Temple, Freddie Bartholomew, Judy Garland, Mickey Rooney, Jackie Cooper, Dickie Mooore, Roddy McDowall, etc. -- starred (credited) in feature films and had abundant significant written coverage in reliable sources. Even those whose screen careers ended by their early to mid teens have abundant retrospectives and biographies -- of at least several pages or paragraphs long -- in books and other venues. Whereas, so far no independent Wikipedia editor has been able to find even a paragraph about June Preston's childhood career in any independent work, except for a bit of bloated promotional hype surrounding the release of Anne of Green Gables. The fact that product lines were named after her means nothing in Wikipedia terms; that's just a marketing device manufacturers use and then continue to use if it succeeds. Unless the product lines are discussed somewhere in a completely independent reliable source, that does not contribute to notability in Wikipedia terms. You need to realize that Wikipedia is not a personal website or a personal web host for you to memorialize your mother. That sort of thing needs to be done on a personal blog or personal website (websites are free these days). Softlavender (talk) 02:03, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
I had a look on Newspapers.com to see if I could find some of the Pinterest clippings; there are many mentions of the dress(es?) but I could not find significant discussion of her biography and career as we need for WP. Unfortunately this clip bodes poorly for our purposes. I agree that it looks like a personal website to host the memorabilia (or just stick with Pinterest!) is the way to go, unless @Idoonie has more material that profiles her mother in-depth and can tell us the reference details (name and dates of the newspapers/magazines/etc.) so an independent editor can have a look. Innisfree987 (talk) 04:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) While Pinterest cannot be directly used as a source, the sheer amount of press clippings is impressive and do not look doctored. That said, without specific notation, it is hard to establish notability. For contrast, I am an absolute nobody, but I have managed to be named in newspapers twice and once with a photograph and my mom put it in a scrapbook. A find sources search (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL) yields very little. A contract with RKO does sound notable, but didn't studios sign hundreds of people back then? I feel very sympathetic towards Sabrina aka Idoonie but verifiability is a cornerstone of Wikipedia. Cheers, --SVTCobra 02:08, 7 January 2022 (UTC)


So Softlavender, So you say "product lines are discussed somewhere in a completely independent reliable source"... Are you telling me that the hundreds of newspaper advertisements from all over the states of my mom' frocks from the 30's through 40's (June Preston & Shirley Temple) side by side on the ads are not reliable? That the newspaper article mentioning "June Preston RKO Film Star article donating her June Preston Frocks to the needy children of the MPRF also known as Motion Picture Television Fund (MPTF) for Christmas along side Gloria Swanson, William Powell, Carole Lombard, Marlene Dietrich and more." is not reliable? That the Photoplay and Popular Screen magazines with her articles inside are not reliable? that the newspaper that states June Preston "stars" in the Paramount "Christmas In July" movie in addition to her being in the center of the photo movie still as Mrs. McDonald's daughter for that movie is unreliable? okay so she is not credited so what, doesn't mean she didnt have a legit in the movie... It was obviously enough to be put in print... And the written reviews and critics reviews in newspapers worldwide, the programs, the photos on her opera career are unreliable too. That the newspaper article, programs showing the Metropolitan Opera cast along with my Mom and Jan Peerce side by side is unreliable? These are all printed in a newspaper or magazine, are you kidding me? Do you think I'm cooking all this up in my oven to fool all of you... I have much better things to do, trust me. Her career was all pre internet, so what if it didnt make you databases. I have the trunk full of proof and like I said and will say again, any one of you can come over and look for yourself if you are local. I can't believe I even have to defend myself and my Mom. Do you really think that a nobody as you put it would have multiple manufactures with multiple apparel lines and toys from 1934 to 1950 because she was a nobody? Really? Her name is clearly patented in 1934 and continued to 1950. Does THAT sound like a nobody, that is in print too on the internet by the way. So let's be real here. I don't have a "Scrapbook" like someone mentioned, I have a huge trunk full of proof (including fan mail from around the world)! So what if she doesn't have internet presence, she wasn't Shirley Temple or any of the kids you mentioned above (which by the way, she knew them all) so they had more work and a better agent, so what... Out of all those kids my Mom was the only one with the same Merchandising contracts as Shirley Temple for years and that should tell you something right there. It does NOT mean she wasn't a star. All you people do is look to the internet and searches for information... I have the real thing, the paper proof, the actual dresses, the magazines, programs, hundreds of photos from the studios, I have her Guild card, her William Morris Agency contract for her Opera tours so instead of sitting looking on your searches why not just ask me to look at photos of the real thing.. not everything is on the internet you know...

As for the "Opera" buff up there who writes on the subject, you can't find anything on my Mom and it's "Impossible" that is she wouldn't be on your searches ... Well guess what, it's possible... I have it, you want to see the actual program, and newspapers with a picture of the Met cast all together on it including my Mom and Jan Peerce the biggest Met Tenor of the time with HER name on the Headline of the article talking about the tour they are on in South America...performing La Boheme and La Traviata? How about her European tour, you want to see the poster showing her performing at the world's famous The Concertgebouw or maybe programs from Barcelona, Portugal, Italy, Greece, and how about all the reviews and critics writing in the newspaper as well be my guest, just email me and I'll send you your proof, then we will see who knows more about June Preston me or your precious searches! Any of you want proof, email me and I'll gladly send you proof. It's the principal of the matter now. Sabrina Idoonie (talk) 04:17, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Idoonie The Metropolitan Opera keeps a meticulous and complete historical archive of all of its performances, both in New York and on tour, which you can search at this website: http://archives.metoperafamily.org/archives/frame.htm. Every performance given by the company during its entire history since the 1880s until today is there. If you search for your mother's name, there is no record of her having performed with the company. Further, the 1952 tour to South America (which your mother was a part of) was not sponsored or organized by the Met, although the tour was billed as "Stars of the Metropolitan Opera" or "Opera de Metropolitan" (see https://northernohiooperaleague.org/jan-peerce/ which makes this clear). It was not uncommon for Met singers to join a touring opera group while on break from the Met and for that troop to capitalize on the prestige of the Met's name for marketing purposes; even though these touring groups were not actually under contract with the Met or artistically linked in any way to the Met. Its clear from Variety and the opera league article link above that the tour had no actual connection to the Metropolitan Opera and was organized by Gregorio Ravic who had a reputation in the press for being deceptive. (You can read about that tour and Ravic's legal troubles in "International: Bad-Check Impresario Lands U.S. Opera Troupe In Colombia Hot Water". Variety. Vol. 187, no. 6. July 16, 1952. p. 11.). I know this must be difficult for you to hear, but truly she did not sing with the Met on tour in South America or she would be in the Met's performance archive. Best.4meter4 (talk) 04:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
Yes, Idoonie, I'm saying that advertisements by definition are not independent, in Wikipedia's viewpoint; they have a conflict of interest which is to sell the product advertised, the product for which they paid a licensing fee to Preston to use her name. Please read and learn what Wikipedia considers reliable sources. Please also read and understand what Wikipedia considers significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. If you can produce viewable links to, or findable mentions (title, author, publication, page numbers) of, newspaper or book or magazine coverage of June Preston that are at least a few substantial paragraphs long, that is not an advertisement or a promotion, and that is in a reliable source, then please do. Unfortunately your say-so about specifics is not usable on Wikipedia, which is an encyclopedia and requires checkable citations from reliable sources that are independent of the subject. By the way, no one is saying or implying that June Preston did not have a career as a child actress and a subsequent career as an operatic soprano. We are saying that the level of significant independent coverage she seems to have received in reliable sources does not appear to rise to the level of Wikipedia's threshold of notability. Every editor on this page and editing the article itself and its talkpage is doing their absolute best to try to find such coverage, but we haven't so far. You can help by pointing us to specific items (title, author, publication, page number), or posting photos of such coverage on your Pinterest along with title, author, publication, page number. But to clarify, publicity photos, passing mentions (less than two paragraphs), and advertisements do not count as significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. And by the way, many people are trying over and over to explain all of this to you, and you do not seem to be really taking it all in, so I urge you, if possible, to step back and detach as much as you are able. Softlavender (talk) 05:24, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Gathering sources

Not sure what some of you are claiming that Pinterest isn't a source. Pinterest isn't being presented as a source, actual news clippings are. Which ARE reliable sources. Hey, Idoonie, I'm going to gather a list of the usable things from the Pinterest pages you linked below.

I'll be expanding this section as I find more. I'm thinking for the non-English ones, if we just could have one of us to make a transcription of the text, then Google translate should be good enough after that to figure out what they say. SilverserenC 05:32, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

It's also pretty clear to me from these clippings that the majority of coverage of her is in non-English papers. Which obviously aren't going to be in ProQuest or the Newspapers archive. SilverserenC 05:42, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
There's probably more to glean from your two archives, but this is a good place to start. What we're going to need from you, @Idoonie:, as I pointed out above in my parenthetical notes, are the names of the newspapers, books, or magazines that each clipping is from and the date it was published. That should be enough info to use as references. SilverserenC 06:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
The Beethoven's Ninth in St. Louis is already in the wiki article. BTW, cannot rely on or repeat claims in concert announcements, because their purpose is to sell tickets, and thus with that COI they are not independent. Also, promotional fluff like "Will they be rivals?" is also COI (used to increase box-office) and not usable. I believe most of us working on the June Preston article have already reviewed all of the clippings currently on Pinterest (in both collections) as of this date. Softlavender (talk) 06:27, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
And yet I see none of the non-English coverage in the article, nor any discussion of them on the talk page. And, honestly, with your comments on the talk page, I don't think you're capable of determining what a good source is on this topic. You seem to be angry at Idoonie and it has significantly impacted your judgement and ability to rationally discuss the article. You should leave. SilverserenC 06:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
Silver seren, I have been on Wikipedia 15 years and made nearly 90,000 edits. I have edited extensively on, and created, articles on actors (including child actors) and singers. I have endeavored as much as I can to research June Preston and improve the wiki article, and have endeavored as much as I can to help Idoonie. Please take your personal attacks elsewhere. Softlavender (talk) 06:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
And yet your comments on the talk page there, such as this:
One reason to keep the article. Frankly, I was of the exact same opinion -- I was going to AFD in a week if no significant coverage in reliable sources were found. Now however I am of the opinion that the article should stand, as an accurate rebuttal to the preposterous bloated claims her daughter has posted on IMDB (biography) and all around the internet
And this:
When I consider that most of the major claims are outright lies, I'm not inclined to have any patience with them whatsoever.
Show that you can't view the topic neutrally at this point. Furthermore, you've been making claims that the coverage isn't significant. Meanwhile, you have coverage like this from the Diari de Tarragona, which reads:
With extraordinary success, the famous soprano June Preston gave her recital on the 3rd of the present day, corresponding to the 11th concert, of which the Musical Institute organized for this year.
The outstanding personality of June Preston can be reflected in some very expressive words full of artistic sense: advanced school in the technique of singing, mastery of the scenic resources, sympathy, and powerful architect of that admiration that great figures know how to get from the public who listen to them.
With these exceptional qualities, she was reeling off all the works that made up the program, to whose gifts we can still add her pleasant timbre of voice with perfect mastery of the highs and lows in their respective chords; wonderful musicality, sensitivity, grace and poise. In short, her recital constituted a demonstration of high quality in this artistic specialty.
In the first part I interpreted "Komm Susser Tod" J. S. Bach; "An Choloe" Mozart; "Warnung" idem; "Wedding of Figaro", idem; "All Mein gedamken" Strauss; "Zueignung" idem; "Vergebliches Standechen", by Brahms; "Standchen" idem and "Der Schimed", by the same author.
In the second part: "The rim of the monn" Michel Head; "Velvet shoes" Randall Thompson; "Linstead macket", Arthur Benjamin; "The Hero", Menotti; "The tree of oblivion", Ginestera; "Cobla leonsesa" Sandoval, Cantiga de idem and "Copla bailable" idem.
It cannot be said that the accompanying pianist Pedro Vallribera, already known by the Tarragona public, once again demonstrated his great pianistic qualities, solving with great skill all the pitfalls of accompaniment. He was an excellent contributor to the success of the concert.
June Preston and Pedro Vallribera were very sincerely applauded, and they performed off-program: "Black Spirituals", sung with great grace and splendorous mastery.
Are you seriously claiming that isn't the exact sort of significant coverage we'd be looking for? SilverserenC 07:03, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
Particularly as an encyclopedist and a Wikipedian, I'm frustrated with the deceptive claims that Idoonie has perpetrated, but I'm not angry with her, and I've repeatedly tried my best to help her. If you are asking me if I consider a concert performance at the Instituto Musical de Tarragona would contribute towards notability, no I do not. Plenty of U.S. singers have created minor careers performing in far-flung and/or obscure venues outside of the U.S., and have even been reviewed in those locations, but unless the singer rises to the level of at least some significant national U.S. (or English-language) coverage and recognition (whether for work in or out of the U.S.), they are generally not considered notable enough for Wikipedia. That is my general observation having created and/or worked on wiki articles on opera singers for the past 12 or so years and being a member of WP:WikiProject Opera. Your assertion that "you can't view the topic neutrally" is another personal attack and mind-reading. Please stop. Softlavender (talk) 07:40, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

With respect, Softlavender, this is certainly not Wikipedia policy. We are always keen to draw on good secondary sources in languages other than English if they contribute to biographies, whatever a person's language or nationality. As is becoming apparent in this case, the performances of Preston when in Europe and Latin America provide significant background on her evolving career. Several of the articles and clippings under discussion seem adequate for sourcing in this connection, providing the newspapers and books can be more clearly identified. One of the ways in which we have been able to contribute to women's coverage in the English version of Wikipedia is by writing articles about women who until now have been largely forgotten in English-language publications. It seems to me that a more detailed biography of Preston is a case in point and that Silver seren is in the process of working on it. If any help is needed with the Spanish, Dutch or other languages in the sources, please let me know which and I'll try to help out.--Ipigott (talk) 10:56, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I believe her "claims" to be those of a daughter wanting to honor her mother as she originally stated. It's easy to look at this from the viewpoint of a Wikipedia editor that has been here for multiple years and been exposed to the Wikipedia culture. We can have built-in skeptical tendencies because of our experiences here. That's true of almost anywhere in life. The challenge for any human being is stepping outside our own knowledge and experience to feel what another person feels and see things from the viewpoint of another human being. I don't think she is being intentionally deceptive or lying about anything. I think she is going based on what she has been told and the personal insight she has gathered from her mother and those in connection with her. She may even be privy to information not found online. But that would be deemed as non-independent original research. That's why I cautioned her that she would most likely never be regarded as having a NPOV when it comes to her mother nor would I expect she would. But I would never say she was being deceptive or lying precisely because I am not a mind reader and because the most human thing I can do is show her compassion. Honesty and truthfulness is all good and we need more of it in this world. But it amounts to nothing if it isn't joined with compassion and kindness. I'm not saying June Preston should have an article on Wikipedia. I personally don't feel it enhances or diminishes the real beauty of her life either way. But showing kindness and compassion in words and deeds directed at her daughter reflects on us as we continually build a better community paralleled by a better encyclopedia by honoring the principles of assuming good faith and upholding civility. --ARoseWolf 16:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
I think some of the claims such as "would go on to become one of the most notable opera singers of her time" in the 2 Jan version are so clearly untrue (not listed in any major reference works where a notable opera singer would be found) that it has made it difficult for people to react calmly. But if some of those adverts we see in Pinterest, of "come and meet the child starlet who will sign your dress label of the range named after her" can be sourced, even as adverts, I reckon that's a fair element of a claim to notability - and not least because it's the sort of thing which sends a reader to an encyclopedia: "This old dress of granny's was a "June Preston Frock", but who on earth was June Preston?" (Mind you, I feel the same about people who have plant species or buildings named after them: I want to know who they were, and they aren't always really notable enough for an article, especially if they or their heirs just provided the funds for the building!) I've searched the London Times and the BL British Newspapers database and found just one mention of JB in a cast list of a film at local cinema, so her concert tours don't seem to have included the UK. But the press cuttings on Pinterest do seem to add up to notability as a singer, it's just a pity that many of them are unusable for Wikipedia as they don't include the newspaper name and date. In my past life as a mostly pre-internet academic librarian one golden rule I drilled into beginning postgrads was "Label all your photocopies": we had a stream of "I copied this 2 years ago / My supervisor gave me this photocopy ... and I need to cite it in my thesis now and I don't know what it is". On one occasion a colleague recognised the kind of striped headband of the binding which gave him a clue as to the publisher and series, and he tracked it down. Similarly, any collection of press cuttings is only any use if we can identify where they're from. Good luck to those who are working on the detective work. And yes, certainly, non-English sources are valid. This isn't just an American encyclopedia, but an international one, and someone can be thoroughly notable without anyone west of the Atlantic ever even noticing them. PamD 18:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
Interesting to look at the lead, over time:
  1. "an internationally renowned opera singer of her time" in the first version of the article,
  2. trimmed July 2016 "(ce, rm "peacock" adjectives)" to "an opera singer" but
  3. by October 2016 changed to "a world famous opera singer" "(Minor change, added 1952 Met opera tour. (I am her daughter, she lives with me.)";
  4. changed by an IP to "one of the world's most famous Opera stars of her time" in Sept 2019;
  5. trimmed to "went on to a career in opera" in Feb 2021, "(I don't think she was one of the most famous opera singers of her time. A Google search of her name brings up 29,700 results, not all of which are hers.)";
  6. Idoonie changed it to "went on to become one of the most notable and famous opera singers of her time." in June 2021;
  7. another IP editing in August 2021 changes this to "Preston starting from 1952, as a vocalist would go on to become international famous and one of the most notable opera singers of her time";
  8. and that, despite the wonky grammar, stayed put until the 2nd Jan etc flurry of editing.
A loving and loyal daughter with an exaggerated view of the significance of her mother's career, it seems. But, without the hyperbole, there is notability: it just needs to be sourced. PamD 18:24, 7 January 2022 (UTC)


Hi all, I'm overwhelmed there seem to be so many people leaving me messages LOL I can't keep track. I have sent sourced/verified/ articles to someone who is trying to help so I'm not sure if she is sharing that with you too? But Thanks for all your words. BUT, for the person and The Metropolitan Opera keeps a meticulous and complete historical archive of all of its performances. I hear what you are saying but do you think the Prince of The Metropolitan opera back then Jan Peerce would have just gone on a tour without someone saying something it's strange right? it's not like he was a bottom of the barrel singer at the met, he was the top tenor there at a the time. I'm not arguing with you at all but it seems strange such a huge star like him wouldn't have record there of him being on this long South American tour... Just Please email me and I will send you the full newspaper page with the publication and date showing "Metropolitan Opera" all the met stars including my Mom in the photo with her name featured in the article, there are 2 newspapers with all that "reliable information/sourced" on them, and I have the opera house posters, and programs for the Metropolitan Tour with all their names on them even photos of my Mom and Jan Peerce performing La Boheme stamped in the back (i know its not sourced) but the newspapers are. It's all there in black and white (kind of yellow now LOL) but truly it's there so please just help me put this bed and email me and I will send the photos to you just so you can see them for my own peace of mind, you can throw it away afterwards if you like, but I just want you to see it with your own eyes so I don't feel like the crazy one LOL. And hey, maybe you can let The Met know. You seem very connected that way so maybe they missed it somehow? and you would be the awesome person to let them know with reliable proof, where Jan Peerce was on tour at that particular time, it just might be missing, im sure they would be grateful for that type of info to add to their database. You know, I will put the articles on Pinterest (others need it anyway) so if you dont want to email me it's okay just take a look at Pinterest later on in the day. Ill put on more little by little for all who need the sourced info.

I think the issue here with checking the web and searches is my mom's Opera career was mostly abroad and I do have all full newspapers from all over the world talking about her performances. All verified, sourced whatever you want to call it (date, publication, you name it I'll start adding both material to both Pinterest boards she has for everyone to see :)

take care all, Sabrina Idoonie (talk) 19:57, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

@ Idoonie, I don't think there is any doubt that she performed the role of Mimi on that tour opposite Jan Peerce. The tour and the performances happened. Your programs and presss reviews are real. However, interpreting primary documents like programs (or even press reviews) are challenging when doing historical research in this case. That tour was deceptively marketed to the South American public and press as being connected to the Metropolitan Opera. In reality it had no official ties to the Metropolitan Opera (no financing, no artistic input, no managing, etc.), and was led/organized by Gregorio Ravic and Wladimir Lubarsky not the Met. The company was incorporated as a separate company entitled "Compañía de Ópera Estrellas del Metropolitan" (Company of Opera Stars of the Metropolitan). Opera News, which is published by the Metropolitan Opera, had a 1952 article about the tour which made it clear it was not organized or connected to the Met. See "Brave Rescue from A Fiasco". Opera News. 17: 13-14. 1952. Given that this is an official publication of the Metropolitan Opera, I would consider it accurate in regards to the history of the company and its lack of relationship to this tour. Best.4meter4 (talk) 17:32, 9 January 2022 (UTC)


Okay it's fine... All I can do to keep putting all the sourced newspaper articles, programs, and photos with June Preston performing with the cast of the Met. Articles which all consistently say "Metropolitan Opera: Jan Pierce, June Preston, Ballerini, Salvatore Baccaloni, Eduardo real and Nicola Moscona" of which all of them are from the Metropolitan Opera New York. Strange right? And it was La Boheme and Tosca she did with that cast. But it's all good. There is so much more that tour, Coca Cola tour is full of "sourced" papers etc. of her theatre performances, radio shows, telephone hour, tv award... then the European tour, I'll put all on Pinterest for everyone that is interested.

And by the way, whoever put the "Ravic" information on my mom's page, I would appreciate it if you would please take it off. The "Ravic" article is incorrect, my mom was not married to Gregoria Ravic, he was her manager at the time and she nor anyone else had any clue what he was up to. So, I ask for whoever put that she was married to Gregoria Ravic to please take it off of my mom's wiki page, in addition to being incorrect, there is no need for that article to be in there, this page is to celebrate her career and talent not make her look bad for someone else's wrongful doings. Thanks for your consideration!

Marriage clarification: My mom's husband was Saul Houben, my mom married him in 1962, he was a Violinist in Belgium then they had me a couple years later. They met at the Paris Opera House where she was performing when she was on tour in Europe (that tour will also be all posted on Pinterest (sourced articles) including the review of her performance at The Concertgebouw which "Walter Winchell" speaks about (also sourced) in his column posted on Pinterest board. Sadly, my dad died at age 60 in 1982 and she never remarried. He was the love of her life.

Some articles written back in those days are sometimes just wrong, I saw one that says her name is "Jane" Preston, another says she was born in Wisconsin, and another says she is from St. Louis, then from Texas and another one from Washington state. So sometimes, they just get it wrong (unless it is consistent, which it is not) it's either a typo or just a mistake.

Logistics: To help get the story straight: June Preston was born June Carol Preston in Glendale, California December 29, 1928. Shortly after, the family moved to Sherman, Texas and would travel back and forth from there to Hollywood (where her grandmother lived) which is how my mom got discovered, when her mom was visiting the studio a producer saw June and asked for an immediate screen test which got her a contact for 3 movies right off the bat of which Anne of Green Gables was the first. So In 1934 she did 3 films and then in 1935, they moved back to Hollywood because RKO signed her for an additional 5 years (sourced in newspaper articles). Then another 7 years after that. You can see in adds June Preston frock, toys etc. were still being sold up till 1948+ which is (sourced) ads on internet. She left the film industry and the family moved to Seattle, WA. That's where she continued singing and began her Operatic journey. In 1989, she was inducted in the WSHF Hall of Fame there for her Film/Operatic career (sourced and in various papers). Just wanted to set the logistics straight... There are plenty of articles (sourced) corroborate what I just said :)

For those of you helping me on the opera side, I will be adding more articles (sourced) from the Met tour, Coca-cola tour, USA, European tour then back in the US from. Just give me a little time to get this all complied, it's a lot. There is much to post on Pinterest, I have no other way to share all that with you, so it seems like a great place to put the information. This goes for Opera career and Film career.

People helping with the "Film career" part , I know she didn't have lots of film "credits" even thought she in many and featured in some was (Featured: it states that in articles, not my words), and I have articles stating the films she was in and I know you need the full page/date (Sources) so I contacted a couple papers, LA Times and Texas Herald to try and get the full page showing date/page (sourced) for you so at least you can justify she was in those movies. She was also one of the Meglin Kiddie's which is (sourced). You know, it's sad not everything was digitized. Someone told me about GenealogyBank do any of you belong to that sight? they apparently have a gazillion articles? I thought I'd ask before having to join the site to try and get a few articles for you which I already have but doesnt show the date/page. So more is coming on Pinterest for Film too. I'll try to put some in every day or every other day :) There are some press clippings done by various publicity agencies she had in CA, NYC, various other stats which clipped articles and stamped them with the publication/date/page number. I have those too.

By the way some of you may already know of this, but I found a great APP which translates articles instantly by having your iPad or phone hover over the article and it translates from any language to english (it's amazing) you can also scan it and keep it too. The translation is pretty good, not perfect but it works well. So for all her opera articles in Spanish, French, Portuguese, Dutch, I'm not sure about greek yet, haven't tried it yet. etc. it will help greatly if you want to ready the articles which are a fun read, some mention her Film career in them in addition to the opera... Anyway, Check out the tranlation APP "GoogleTranslate" (APP) its amazing.

Regardless what some say and what their opinions are, June Preston was famous in her day and I guess it will be up to the readers of her articles and photos to determine that for themselves. Yes, she is my mom, but i am not trying to maker he into something she is not. The articles and photos show her star status on their own merit in both careers. I am sure there are plenty of famous people out there that just got lost or forgotten in the "digital world" like she did but it doesn't mean they were not stars in their day and yes I mean "Stars".

Again, for all you helping me on this, thanks so much for your kindness and for taking the time out of your lives to help me. Bye all.. have lots of work to do tomorrow getting articles ready for you :) Take care Sabrina Idoonie (talk) 08:42, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for all this additional background, Idoonie. You will see that our biographies of far more prominent actresses and operatic sopranos do not give details of all the performances and tours but tend to pick out the more significant ones in order to provide a useful overview. May I therefore suggest that in your further research and use of Pinterest for showing the dates and sources of your newspaper clippings, you also try to pick out the most significant. I also suggest that in future you include them on the June Preston talk page rather than here. If you run into any difficulties, please let me know on my talk page.--Ipigott (talk) 10:34, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I though this was part to "Talk" I will see if i can find "Talk" and write on that. It will be no problem to give you want you need, i am currently (as promised to people on this board) going through her opera tours which stem from 1950 - 1963. It is quite extensive and yes, the newspaper clippings include the dates and sources, the opera programs also have that on them as a back up the the newspaper clippings.

For those waiting more info. it will come: I have posted a photo on Pinterest Pinterest to show you how extensive the material I am compiling for you is. 1950-1958 (different countries, shows, and years) not including the European tour. I will only add the clippings with the date & publication etc. but some pictures as well you dont need to look at but others will enjoy. Thanks Sabrina I guess i wont be speaking to you on this platform so just check Pinterest for updates for both careers. Thanks 172.116.187.37 (talk) 23:07, 10 January 2022 (UTC)


@Idoonie: A couple of points:

  1. If the above comment is by you, and I guess it is at is signed "Sabrina", please try to remember to log on and edit using your editor name rather than also editing as an anonymouse "IP" editor.
  2. You say this page is to celebrate her career and talent but it is not: a Wikipedia encyclopedia page is to provide an accurate and neutral description of a topic. That is exactly why we strongly discourage Conflict of Interest editing: people who are closely associated with a topic tend to want to "celebrate her career and talent", while other editors are working to produce a neutral, accurate and reliably-sourced encyclopedia. If you want, understandably, to celebrate your Mother's achievements, then it might be better to set up your own website to do so: there, you can make your own rules (as long as you remember issues of copyright of course). PamD 00:10, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I just want to let everyone know that I am adding more "Reliable Sourced" articles, including theater programs, and pics backing-up those article on Pinterest (Professional Opera Career spanning from 1950-1960's) North America, South America, Europe and the US including one of the Walter Winchell column "sourced" 1962 article I just found: ""June Preston American opera-lark, is getting rave notices in Europe. From an Amsterdam critic: "A smash! Every aria a Jewel!" June shrugged off the stallers along Broadway and is booked solid around the world..." I believe "stallers" was a typo it should read "Stellars" along Broadway... Anyhow, I have a lot of reliably sourced articles which I am also translating because they are in many different languages from around the world. I am also very pleased to let you know that the "reliably sourced articles" from 1950-1960's all corroborate everything I have said from the beginning about June Preston, which sadly some refuse to believe. Please check the Pinterest boards from time to time to see the Updates. I am adding articles on a daily basis starting with her 1950 tour onward. I will also update her Film page with articles as well. Thanks! I will continue my conversations on the Talk page in the future. Thanks for everyone's help on this page! Idoonie (talk) 08:07, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Apologies if this has already been covered (there's so much text above and I've not been following along), but please note that news clippings posted on Pinterest are likely to be copyright violations and if they are, Wikipedia shouldn't link to them. That's not to say that the sources can't be used, but per WP:COPYLINK "if you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work". Cordless Larry (talk) 08:13, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Invitation to submit session to RightsCon 2022

Dear Women in Red,

I'm part of the new public policy team focused on Global Advocacy - nice to meet you! I'm reaching out with an exciting opportunity to showcase the Women in Red group's work.

We're submitting a handful of session proposals for RightsCon 2022 (June 6-10, 2022), the world's leading summit on human rights in the digital age. Your efforts to highlight women's issues, biography, and work on Wikimedia Projects, and to do so via creative, community-led events aligns closely with the RightsCon focus. We think this a unique moment to showcase your group's work or problem solve challenges with the diverse audience that comes together for RightsCon.

To apply, please submit your proposal outline by January 10. Details about the process and proposal resources are included in the application form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfmd5mhxEpFpXiAVIM-_31QJM5UEKDHWovfLvgq2wOIQQiudA/viewform?usp=sf_link

Don't hesitate to reach out with questions. My name is Ziski and email is fputz@wikimedia.org

FPutz (WMF) (talk) 15:46, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, @Ziski and thanks for informing us about WMF's plans to submit sessions proposals for RightsCon. This interests me very much and probably others here, too. We'll do some brainstorming and maybe have some follow-up questions for you before the deadline. Thanks again. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:11, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm interested Rosiestep, but still kind of up in the air with mom's situation. Perhaps after Christmas we can discuss? SusunW (talk) 17:15, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
SusunW, hope everything works out well with mom. Yes, let's discuss the week after Christmas. Maybe that would be convenient for others, too. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Thanks all! Excited to hear there is interest. I do apologize that the deadline is so short and comes right after the Holidays. Looking forward to working with you.-- FPutz (WMF) (talk) 09:05, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
@FPutz (WMF)@Rosiestep@SusunW Please drop us a note if you think WikiProject Disability could also contribute to this. We're a very small project but willing. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:05, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Roger, I literally was just emailing with Rosiestep about this. She's with her family for the holidays but we've made tentative plans to discuss. Will keep you in the loop. SusunW (talk) 13:42, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
@SusunW Thanks. I've been less active on WP recently following the defeated RFC at the MOS about disability language. It's depressing to see how many troglodytes inhabit this place. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:42, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
@SusunW@FPutz (WMF) @Rosiestep I'm afraid I had forgotten about this and missed the deadline to contribute something from WikiProject Disability. Mea culpa Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:16, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
No worries Roger I had to bow out too. Too many real life things going on. SusunW (talk) 14:10, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
Roger, actually, the deadline has been extended to January 20th. But I don't know anyone who has capacity to create the submission. BTW, I just noticed that you became a Wikipedian 10 days after me; cool that our editing anniversaries are so close! --Rosiestep (talk) 18:52, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
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