User talk:Sitush/Archive 33

The Editor's Barnstar

		The Editor's Barnstar
		Thank you for your tireless dedication to the English Wikipedia by ensuring that articles are accurate, objective, and free of misinformation. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 19:06, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Yamaguchi. I'm not sure how long I will stick this current spate of activity - I am being pulled in a lot of directions, as is the norm with India/caste stuff. - Sitush (talk) 21:49, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Jat walled garden

Can you take a look at contributions of Hind ji? I have deleted some of the more atrocious cruft, but there's a lot that I can't just delete, and there's stuff calling the Gupta empire as Jats that and I'm getting a real bad headache from all this!. Abhishek0831996 may be able to give more context.

Will try but I am already on maximum paracetamol! Take a look a my comment just now at User talk:HariSinghw - if Twinkle was usable on mobile, I'd open a case at SPI. I have asked questions of them but it's pretty much a duck. - Sitush (talk) 18:46, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

SpacemanSpiff, I have a feeling that the source at Jangladesh edited by Vir Singh isn't reliable & has been discussed at WT:INB. But it could be a different Vir Singh & I can't search the INB archives using mobile. Any ideas? - Sitush (talk) 21:47, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

This is what I could find Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_45#Assistance_requested aloong with: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Vir_Singh_(author), Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Vir_Singh. It appears to be one of those things brought here by that Burdak. —SpacemanSpiff 00:38, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh gosh, I thought there was more than this. He is a Jat writing about Jat history & apparently heading up an association named after Suraj Mal, none of which bodes well for independent thought etc and I can't even find reliable sources which cite his stuff. I am inclined to say he is not RS even as an editor of books because we know how lower-rank academics mix fact & fantasy when it comes to their caste histories. - Sitush (talk) 06:58, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@SpacemanSpiff and Yamaguchi先生:, could the ip who has just reinstated some Hind Ji-style Jat stuff at Puran Mal actually be that person evading their block? - Sitush (talk) 11:09, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

• I have blocked the IP and another account Naseeb2468 that was involved in the same activity, similar copyvios and referencing. —SpacemanSpiff 11:16, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, SpacemanSpiff. I have just gutted one of their creations that I think has been deleted previously under a slightly different title. See Jadaun rajput, where the access-date for the sole remaining source is 2014, so they have just copy/pasted from somewhere. The stuff I removed also had a bizarre range of acess dates. - Sitush (talk) 11:41, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

• I think Fowler&fowler might want to look at some of these too, like Battle of Sikandra, I can't make head or tail of what the article says! —SpacemanSpiff 11:50, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

It has taken me hours just to clean up their last 150 edits, and some of those were irrelevant because they were talk pages etc. This does not bode well. - Sitush (talk) 12:17, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

User:Gupta Ynr

Could you take a look at the contribs please? I blocked after I noticed some page move vandalism around List of Iyengars, the talk page is very telling but the contributions are really weird and I can't make head or tail of most of it. I suspect a lot would need to be deleted. Blocked for a week to clean up without interference but I'm guessing more action would be needed soon! —SpacemanSpiff 07:16, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I have had dealings with them at, for example, Celibate Ascetics (Vairagi). They are at best utterly lacking in competence & have left such a mess that I am uncertain how to clean up while still abiding by our policies. In my ideal world, I would nuke every edit they have made but I know I will just draw the wrath of the AGF crowd if I do + it can't be done anyway without admin privileges. Johnuniq has had some input. - Sitush (talk) 07:28, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I have indefinitely topic banned them (almost an edit conflict with the block), see their talk for the recent moves. Johnuniq (talk) 07:31, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Can all of the page moves be undone and then delete various redirects that resulted. If neither Spiffy nor I can make sense of it, with our topic experience, then they are likely as useless as they have been disruptive. Undoing those would be a start. - Sitush (talk) 07:41, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I believe that's done. Johnuniq (talk) 10:22, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

There are those relating to what is currently at Celibate Ascetics (Vairagi), which is unquestionably contrary to our titling guidelines. - Sitush (talk) 11:35, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I didn't see the TBAN, Johnuniq, until just now. I just wanted this mess to stop and went with a block as an immediate measure. This Bairagi / Celibate Ascetics thing is a flustercuck! Sitush, it's copy-paste moved and title moved multiple times with multiple histories and I can see three different articles from the single source. Pinging Utcursch to see if he wishes to do anything editorially on this, I'll take care of the hist-merges, deletions, and attribution trails when we come to that stage. —SpacemanSpiff 11:50, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Template deletion, anyone?

It's a complete pain on mobile! Does anyone fancy nominating {{DNA India}} for deletion? It is an inherent breach of WP:ELNO #9 and even if it were not I don't see why we should be promoting a fairly poor Indian news website in this way. - Sitush (talk) 15:15, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I asked for opinions at Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard#Templates that link to a list of links. Johnuniq (talk) 05:06, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I probably won't be around much for a few days - 2 x AZ jabs but covid confirmed today via PCR test. I could have predicted I would be one of those who proves nothing is 100% efficacious :( - Sitush (talk) 17:21, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Sitush, I can only hope the information in the media is correct: that breakthrough infections after vaccination are milder and rarely lead to hospitalisation. Take care of yourself. Bishonen | tålk 08:56, 25 August 2021 (UTC).

Do take care, Sitush & get well soon. Ekdalian (talk) 10:39, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

What bad luck! Hopefully as Bish says the vaccinations will still do their job of making any effects milder. Doug Weller talk 10:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Take care Sitush. --RegentsPark (comment) 15:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Take care and get well soon, Sitush, really hope it's a case of breakthrough infections are mild. —SpacemanSpiff 16:17, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

sorry to read this :-( . Anyway, get well soon Sitush. Should be mild given that you had two shots.LukeEmily (talk) 17:39, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Wishing you well Sitush. — Ched (talk) 18:56, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Take care of yourself, Sitush, hope it's a mild case and a quick recovery! Ravensfire (talk) 19:15, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

MOUSTAFA

Oh Sitush.. Sitush! We would REALLY value even so much as a discussion "off the record" regarding your decimation of the Moustafa article and similar others over the years. As per [1]. You are one of three editors from around the world who we are examining in a fair and balanced way for an international doc distributor - about how Wikipedia is edited. No doc (and in this case an associated book) has ever "lifted up the bonnet" in the way we are doing - and the necessity for your right to reply is becoming more and more apparent. The tx is planned for July 2022. We know your identity but, of course, will keep it totally private. In fairness and anticipation. Wiktvdoc (talk) 19:54, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Can anyone end this harassment? - Sitush (talk) 17:22, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Ended (blocked). Good to see you back Sitush. Hope all is well. --RegentsPark (comment) 17:37, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I am fiddling with stuff, then stopping, then fiddling again. 5 weeks since symptoms first appeared & my temperature is still fluctuating wildly between 37 (fiddle time) and 39.5 (can't stop shaking). Fed up with it. - Sitush (talk) 17:45, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Goodness! I hope it goes away soon. Five weeks is a long time. --RegentsPark (comment) 17:57, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Review of edits by Rudra821

Hi Sitush, I wanted to ask for your help, if your schedule permits. There appears to be an extensive amount of original research and poorly sourced content changes added to a host of different articles by user Rudra821 (talk · contribs) some of which date back 5-6 months. These changes range from completely unsourced to attribution to non-verifiable and potentially non-existent sources. There are likely instances of good faith edits from other editors which are unfortunately caught in between. If possible, would you please review some of these, and take action as needed? Namely I am concerned w/ the article Kedar Ray but there are many others. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 21:46, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

My sincere apologies, I just saw your notes above regarding your recent illness! Please take care, and I wish you a complete and speedy recovery. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 21:49, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm still on and off here, sorry. Not in the best place to do any deep diving. - Sitush (talk) 18:18, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Claudia Webbe

Not for the first time, there seems to be some serious COI editing at Claudia Webbe. The IP is based where the subject lives & hasn't got a clue about policies etc. Worse, on the one hand they are removing a source saying that it is subject to a legal challenge & on the other they are relying on it to verify some other point. I think I can revert no more, and I have already left notes on the article & IP talk pages as well as in edit summaries.

Anyone fancy taking a look? - Sitush (talk) 13:31, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I've warned the IP about the sourcing problems, and explained some about the sourcing principles here. If that doesn't do it, I guess the next step will be semi. Bishonen | tålk 13:55, 28 September 2021 (UTC).

Thanks. They have sort of responded. Still clueless, still disrupting, and their COI seems now to be admitted. - Sitush (talk) 15:16, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

OK, and now they're doing it all again at the article, claiming privilege, misunderstanding what it said & even throwing a couple of vague accusations of racism around. They need to be blocked and reverted. - Sitush (talk) 16:25, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I've semiprotected.--RegentsPark (comment) 17:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I have reverted pretty much everything. I note someone else is now raising concerns similar to mine on the article talk so hopefully whatever issues remain can be resolved in a policy compliant manner before too long. - Sitush (talk) 17:43, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Ha! And now back as Claudiawebbe (talk · contribs). It is blatant & that account was warned of COI years ago. - Sitush (talk) 17:58, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I've partial-blocked Claudiawebbe indefinitely from editing Claudia Webbe. I'm thinking of blocking the IP as well, but I suppose the semi will hold them. If they should start disrupting the talkpage, I will block. Bishonen | tålk 20:00, 28 September 2021 (UTC).

Leads

Hi there, nothing for me or you to get worked up over, but just a comment on leads. Per MOS:LEADCITE, "The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article." I often find in cases of breaking news on BLPs, citing in the lead is helpful - I've seen other editors bring people back to life because the death was only cited in the main part of the article ([2], Ctrl+F "he died"). I was just making sure that recent arrivals to the page who hadn't seen the news would know it was true that she was convicted. No need for you to reply, here or at my page, happy editing. Unknown Temptation (talk) 20:25, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Unknown Temptation there was actually no need for you to post here but presumably you are unaware that you are teaching me to suck eggs. The statement was not controversial and I'll give long odds that 99% of visitors to the article post-conviction are driven there precisely because they have seen the news of her conviction, as I suspect you were yourself. - Sitush (talk) 20:33, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Need input

Hi there Sitush. It seems that you are busy but your participation at Talk:Breast tax#Redirect is needed. An affirmation of position[3][4] on the subject is needed for emerging consensus. Thank you. Azuredivay (talk) 15:02, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Boo!

Happy Halloween!

---

Hello Sitush:
Thanks for all of your contributions to improve Wikipedia, and have a happy and enjoyable Halloween!
    —usernamekiran • sign the guestbook • (talk) 18:58, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Webbe & SCG

You seem to have reverted my reversion without following BRD or reviewing the talkpage, why is this? Alssa1 (talk) 22:56, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Alssa1 you want to retain it but provide no examples despite saying they exist; me and A N Other explained why it is a poor idea. Consensus would trump BRD anyway. - Sitush (talk) 21:02, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

"you want to retain it but provide no examples despite saying they exist" Can you explain what is in this edit exactly if I didn't provide any examples? Alssa1 (talk) 21:28, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Propoganda editing

Hi sir this person https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/RS6784 is always editing Wikipedia for his Pro-Rajput caste and Anti-Gurjar / Anti-Ahir propoganda. Please see his edits. 2401:4900:5044:DE12:A487:6B00:46D4:795D (talk) 08:09, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

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Recent changes

Hi Sitush, hope you are doing well. When you have time please check the recent changes made to the article Ezhava as per the talk page request. Thanks R.C^{Outlander07@talk} 16:39, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Io, Saturnalia!

		Io, Saturnalia!
		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:08, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Nine years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:35, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Is this Jatland?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_states_in_Rajasthan

Just review this article and tell me why should this even exist? 42.106.197.219 (talk) 13:24, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Season's Greetings

		Season's Greetings
		Here's wishing you a marvellous holiday and the best of 2022 Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Nomination of Aam Aadmi Party (Pakistan) for deletion

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Are you all right?

You've not been around for a while. I hope you're doing fine! Bishonen | tålk 12:36, 30 January 2022 (UTC).

Me too. You are sorely missed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:15, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Same concern, here! Hope you are fine. Ekdalian (talk) 14:21, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Not too well again but will be back. Thanks for the concern. - Sitush (talk) 15:47, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Great to see your message, finally! Take care of your health. I was also going through the comments in the section below; I must admit today, I have learnt a lot from you as far as caste articles are concerned. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 18:14, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Unreliable publishing houses

A question for Sitush talk page stalkers. Sitush had created a list of unreliable Indian publishers, does anyone know where it can be found?--RegentsPark (comment) 17:24, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

I have the same question. I know that Concept Books was high up on that ladder. Probably Atlantic Publisher belongs to it as well. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:57, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Not sure which list you are looking for but I have User:Sitush/Indic publications of dubious merit, User:Sitush/CasteSources and User:Sitush/Common on my favourites (no I won't call it favorites (oh, I just did)) - Arjayay (talk) 21:06, 18 February 2022 (UTC))

I was wondering about Popular Prakashan, specifically the source used here (obviously not a wikipedia mirror!). --RegentsPark (comment) 21:38, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

The link is to a scholarly book by R. Mukherjee, Dynamics of Rural Society in Bengal, published by Akademie-Verlag, Berlin, 1957. It should be reliable if slightly dated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:49, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks F&f. The "in-between castes" usage seemed odd to me and gave me pause but I guess it is kosher. --RegentsPark (comment) 00:52, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Ramkrishna Mukherjee was a major quantitative sociologist of Bengal. A protege of sorts he was of P. C. Mahalanobis, the founder of ISI, Calcutta. He had collaborated Moni Mukherjee, a statistician of the income of Bengal, also at ISI, early. Moni Mohan Mukherjee does not seem to have a WP page; he should. I'll have to examine the in-between castes usage, which I haven't yet. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:05, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

@RegentsPark: As we are on Sitush's talk page, I thought I'd mention that I happened upon a discussion on a "Raj-era" source on RS/N which I joined. I was duped somewhat as I didn't realize that some who were expressing their opinions on the source had in fact been locking horns on various Bengal-related caste pages such as the brahmin, the kayastha, the baidya, and likely more.

There is little available on these castes in the India-wide caste books such as Susan Bayly's Caste and society in India ..., Cambridge, 200?, I mean little that is separate from North India brahmins and kayastha. The editors are resorting to cherry-picking, usually from sources that make an oblique mention. Had Sitush (of old) been around, he's run his red pen through the lot of them.

In light of that RS/N discussion, I'd say that Ramkrishna Mukherjee's book might not be Raj-era, but it is dated and should be used on these pages with an abundance of caution. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:29, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Kayastha etc stuff has always been a battleground, in my opinion. I would quite happily support a proposal that all contributors in India and all other people who profess an Indian identity are barred from editing caste articles/restricted to talk pages. Every one of them has a conflict of interest and far too often they are here to promote their particular opinion. - Sitush (talk) 15:51, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

If it is not tongue-in-cheek, it is complicated by the fact of some of the great sociologists of caste also being Indian: G. S. Ghurye, M. N. Srinivas, Veena Das, Andre Beteille (though he is half-French, at least biologically), Dipankar Gupta, T. N. Madan, Iravati Karve, and no doubt others. ... But you are not talking about the sources, only the editors ... Frankly, don't know what the solution is. Caste in India won't go unless arranged marriages go (as these are overwhelmingly within caste and sub-caste). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:03, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

For starters, all caste-related articles could default to the 500-edit rule (forgot the acronym). We are way too liberal & it leads to burn-out of good editors. - Sitush (talk) 17:08, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Anyway, prepare for screams of anguish because one of my first tasks when I get going again will be to do global searches to remove all Raj-sourced statements. There will be no messing about this time: I have no intention of tagging with {{cn}}. - Sitush (talk) 17:11, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree with both. 500 min is good. The cn does not apply to caste in my view too. For the craziest assertion these days there is a source somewhere. It is usually DUE that is the problem and cn is useless there. I feel we could move the DUE discussions to the talk pages; even restrict the lead and infobox to widely used undergraduate texts published by scholarly publishers, quoting WP:TERTIARY. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:38, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Sitush! Your help will be really appreciated. Is there some script that can detect years that we can run across caste pages? We can help. BTW, there is a battle going on between Baidya and Bengali Kayastha editors at this moment as to who is 2nd in the hierarchy of Bengal :-) Just check the talk page on Talk:Baidya. It gets frustrating after a while trying to resolve disputes. TB probably resigned from the same page due to the same issue. However, the caste pages I have found most battles are Rajput and Maratha related pages. It is impossible for a few good editors to keep up when 100s of disruptive editors edit across wikipedia. I really like the 500 edit rule for all caste articles. At least the editors will be conversant with sourcing by then. As a start, anonymous edits on all caste articles should not be allowed as it is easy for socks.LukeEmily (talk) 17:50, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

@LukeEmily: Ping either me, Vanamonde, Spiff, Bishonen or DougWeller with any caste page that needs semi or ec protecting. I agree that ec will be helpful but, of course, that would not help at Baidya.--RegentsPark (comment) 19:16, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

• I learnt a lot by seeing your posts.great to see you back.your contribution will be so helpful. Nobita456 (talk) 21:02, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Baidya (& Chitraguptavanshi Kayastha) POV pushing - Socks & update

Hello Sitush, would like to keep you informed that during your long absence, lot of caste warriors have actively tried to push their POV stuff in the articles on Baidya and Chitraguptavanshi Kayastha articles; I have tried my best to protect these articles, and got tremendous support from RegentsPark and Bishonen. All such editors (mostly socks) were blocked. The current version of the article on Baidya was achieved through the combined efforts especially by TrangaBellam & LukeEmily. Regarding the latest sockpuppet investigation, please refer to the discussion [here]. Thanks! Ekdalian (talk) 10:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

This situation was known as SNAFU in the 1940s. - Sitush (talk) 10:50, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

you almost tried every admin to block me of sockin but couldn't.even in that sockpuppet investigation I reaming proved innocent. Nobita456 (talk) 11:14, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

This is a part of the problem. There have been so many socks on caste articles that they have tainted things for newer editors. You can hardly blame experienced editors for a certain degree of cynicism. My advice to you would be to work collaboratively and across a wide range of articles, build a degree of respect & experience, and then revisit this particular bone of contention if you still feel strongly about it. There is no deadline. - Sitush (talk) 11:24, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Great piece of advice for new editors indeed! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 11:48, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Invite for comment

As you are so experienced in the caste-related article I am inviting you to give your opinion here before doing WP:RFC . thanks Nobita456 (talk) 09:47, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I seem unable to respond. Although the WP app shows the section, it refuses to commit my reply on the grounds that it doesn't exist (!). I don't understand why a separate section would be required. - Sitush (talk) 10:52, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Varna status section is already there where two sub section Colonial and Modern is present with the views regarding Varna.I want to create a new sub section Mediaeval and want to add the views.Thats it,thanks. Nobita456 (talk) 11:12, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Unless I have misunderstood things, I also do not see how starting an RFC would be helpful. You appear to be in a minority of one, you are fairly inexperienced & limited in your interests, and those several peoplewho differ from you do have considerable experience in the wider caste-related sphere. I can't stop you from raising an RFC but I do think that you would likely be wasting your time & that of everyone else, especially when taking into account also the long history of sockfarms etc at such articles - AGF is not a suicide pact. - Sitush (talk) 11:18, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Do you think the mediaeval varna section should not be there ? I am new to wikipedia doesn't mean I know less about Bengal's castes. I will use academic sources to create that section not my opinion. Nobita456 (talk) 11:30, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

What I have just again tried to post is

As far as I can see, the medieval status is mentioned - there were only two varnas commonly recognised then. This has parallels with other areas of India (eg no Kshatriya varna in various southern bits). I don't understand why a separate section would be required, and especially not if it would basically be a single sentence. We certainly should not be using medieval sources directly and, whilst you may have knowledge of Bengali castes, as a relatively new editor you will not have much experience in how Wikipedia works - not a criticism, merely a fact. - Sitush (talk) 11:38, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Have you seen the Baidya article which is one of the best caste articles of bengal? it clearly gives different views of purans and literatures(mediaeval era varna). I just also want to add them in kayatsha article also, that's it. and I will definitely not use Mediaeval sources but the sources by modern scholers.Nobita456 (talk) 11:41, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

My talk page is not the place for this. - Sitush (talk) 12:05, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Thats why I pinged you at the talk page of that article.please give your opinion there if you are interested. Nobita456 (talk) 12:08, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

@Nobita456 :I am not interested. As I have said on a few occasions recently, I am using the app at the moment and it isn't great for tracking pings, reading convoluted discussions or checking diffs. - Sitush (talk) 12:11, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks for your time and comment. Nobita456 (talk) 12:12, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Vandlization

Dear Sitush In this page of Tyagis : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyagi I provided total 6 sources from different books from 19th centuary to 20th centuary. And in the source no 6 its clearly mentions that Tyagis are Gaur Brahmins and this repory was from Government of Haryana.But now every time any comes with a single source and in which no where is written that they claim Brahmin status.Kindly please check all the sources i have mentioned and one thing more they say Raaj Sources are not valid so i also added the non raaj sources too.And on the other pages Raaj Sources are valid but not valid on this ,vandalizers for their propoganda doing this.Please help to prevent this. Thanks Avinash Vats (talk) 15:29, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Dear Sitush I am waiting for your response , your edit was this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tyagi&oldid=844542276 but from the last year vandaliation carried on by certain ideology people. I also added Brahmanutpati Dapran signed by the Shankracharya printed in 2005. But Marvel200 continously engaged in edit war i already left message on his talk page he never respond their. Without checking the sources claim that all are false i added around 10 sources. Please resolve this issue as soon as possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avinash Vats (talk • contribs) 14:39, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Ones to remove on sight?

in your Ones to remove on sight you've stated about jatland wiki and bhim singh Dahiya, I'm asking out of curiosity why is that so? Vhemie (talk) 16:50, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Vettuva Gounder?

Hey, I know you were involved in verification of old content on this page years ago, but is there a way you can come back to verify as it appears the attempted overwrites are firing up again? A WP:AFD might also be in order, but I cannot be inclined to send it myself due to my lack of knowledge of non-global subjects relating to India and South Asia. I also happened to notice years of copyvios in the page's edit history, so maybe that can also be submitted for revdel? Thanks! Jalen Folf (talk) 03:12, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Raj-era photographs

I somehow wandered into the topic of use on wikipedia of Raj-era photographs of supposedly 'typical caste members'. TrangaBellam then pointed me to an earlier occassion when this topic has been discussed, unfortunately to a stalemate. The next time you are active and have time to spare, would love to hear your thoughts on the topic, whether it is a suitable subject to be addressed at WP:RAJ, and whether it needs to be discussed afresh at WP:INB. Hope you are doing well IRL! Abecedare (talk) 18:34, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Category:Members of the 3rd Tamil Nadu Legislative Assembly has been nominated for merging

Category:Members of the 3rd Tamil Nadu Legislative Assembly has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 03:04, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Karana-Kayastha Connection

Hey Sitush, I am extremely sorry to disturb you. This is to inform you that a discussion regarding the Karana-Kayastha connection is going on in WP:DRN. If you wish you can provide your advice here. Wishing for your good health. Have a great day. Thanks. Regards,Satnam2408 (talk) 16:50, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Nomination of Habibzai for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Habibzai is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Habibzai until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

BeReasonabl (talk) 12:22, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Lightbreather appeal

The Arbitration Committee is considering an unban appeal from Lightbreather (talk · contribs). You are being notified as you participated in the last unban discussion. You may give feedback here. For the Arbitration Committee, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:32, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Sitush. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Barkeep49 (talk) 18:01, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Raj Era caste sources

Any opinions on this ethnolographic survey from 1913, edited by Denys Bray? An editor is trying to use it to add contentious material to Arora. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 18:03, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

@Ohnoitsjamie : no Raj era sources are deemed to be reliable. There is a brief explanation regarding this on one of my userspace pages. I am on mobile & can't remember which one! Maybe User:Sitush/CasteSources. Sorry for the delay in responding. - Sitush (talk) 14:32, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ohnoitsjamie, Denys Bray falls under User:Sitush/CasteSources#Writings_of_British_Raj_administrators hence he is not reliable for opinions on caste. We do use some Raj era sources for noncontentious issues or if the source is a scholar or an academic source. For example Jadunath Sarkar or Irawati Karve but not the nationalist historians especially those who supported the aryan race theory. If I understand Sitush's page correctly, the blanket ban is on the administrators since they had no formal training to give opinion on caste or history of a caste.LukeEmily (talk) 15:14, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

@LukeEmily well, yes, there may always be idiosyncratic exceptions to the rule. FWIW, I certainly don't think Sarkar is up to the mark by today's standards, however lauded he was by his contemporaries & still is by those castes whom he glorified. He's probably no better than the once-esteemed G. M. Trevelyan; both of them are now history themselves. - Sitush (talk) 17:53, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Censoring

This user, who I believe is a possible sock of accounts editing Ezhava talk page and related pages, is now censoring the caste at Nangeli. The article was tampered and content was not as per the given citations. Please keep as eye on. 2409:4073:48D:7EF7:6CBF:C8CC:557F:7BF6 (talk) 13:09, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	For your extraordinary service in keeping difficult topics in India reliably sourced, neutral, and well-written. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:10, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

• +1 Absolutely. --Titodutta (talk) 23:08, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

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Always precious

Ten years ago, you were found precious. That's what you are, always. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:32, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Seasons Greetings

Whatever you celebrate at this time of year, whether it's Christmas or some other festival, I hope you and those close to you have a happy, restful time! Have fun, Donner60 (talk) 00:16, 23 December 2022 (UTC)}}

Donner60 (talk) 01:57, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you remember me?

It's been a decade. How are you? Kautilyalundit (talk) 13:16, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy new era

Bishzilla and all her socks wish you a happy new Jurassic era! bishzilla _ROARR!! pocket 16:46, 31 December 2022 (UTC).

Happy Kalends of January

		Happy New Year!
		Wishing you and yours a Happy New Year, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free and may Janus light your way. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:06, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Sitush!

Happy New Year!

Sitush,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
— Moops ^⋠T⋡ 20:43, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

— Moops ^⋠T⋡ 20:43, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

khandayat caste

Hello, A user named P.sitansu doing propaganda edits on khandayat article. He intentionally trying to relate khandayat caste with gouda by misusing a book . I am from odisha and I studies many books and articles like tribe and caste of odisha and Bengal by HH risely, Hindu caste and sect by j bhattacharya, Madox settlement report, Cuttack Gazetteer by IAS Tara Dutta, God,People and caste system by LK Mohapatra, Generology of paika rebellion by akio tanabe, Peasant militias of odisha by Prasant Pradhan and many more. All the source says the same. Khandayat caste has relation with chasa caste. That's why khandayat are cultivator. But no source says gouda has any connection with khandayat. The fact is Khandayat and chasa are same caste. He misused a book of hc das which is a translation of a odia dictionary. I think he is a gouda by caste and intentionally doing this. Pls do something against this vandalism. Sekharblack123 (talk) 15:49, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Rowther

Would you please take a moment to look at recent changes. I am suffering from twitching antennae, the more so with the rather aggressive edit summary from a new editor, whom I have warned with an only warning about article ownership. My challenge in this area is that I find telling good edits from bad edits to be hard. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 08:45, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Wrong information

Dear False information is given int the wikipedia in the "viswakarma caste" article. Before publishing some information on the powerful social media such as wikipedia, you have to go through a thorough research, especially when the content spoils the respect of a clan. You go through the vedas for konwing the brahminical status of the viswakarmas. By reading few useless puranas, it is irony to decide the viswakarmas have no relation with brahmins. It seems the article is written either inadvertently or with jealous. You have no right to discriminate a brahminical caste. Viswakarmas won around 22 cases in various levels of courts officially, proving that they are the brahmins. If you dont know.. first of all know it. otherwise dont write an article with just half knowledge. Baabjitvk (talk) 07:36, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Sockfarm

Hi, it is regarding this edit by the banned sockfarm [5], username, editing area, et al. I believe their edit needs to get WP:BANREVERTED and new SPI case be filed. Please do the needful, thanks. - 117.201.115.37 (talk) 09:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

User:Sutyarashi

Hi, the user mentioned above has been editing articles with revisionist history with a pro-Jat bias on many pages, kindly intervene. His [edits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sutyarashi] CrashLandingNew (talk) 10:52, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I've also reported him for sock puppetry here. CrashLandingNew (talk) 12:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

@CrashLandingNew I am interested to know that where is the pro Jat bias in my edits? If you accused me of anything like this again I will surely bring this to ANI. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:26, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Do not just keep removing sourced content you personally dislike. If you have any concerns, use talkpages, they are for this purpose. If there occur any further disruptions from you, then you will see me on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:48, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Regarding my topic of interest & an additional note.

Hi @Sitush,

I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to formally express my agreement to refrain from making any further edits or contributions to my topic of interest (Sindhi Tribal History) on Wikipedia. As someone deeply passionate about my chosen subject, I have invested considerable time and effort in sharing my knowledge and expertise with the Wikipedia community. However, it has come to my attention that there have been instances of bullying and harassment directed towards me in relation to my contributions. While I firmly believe in the importance of open collaboration and the democratic nature of Wikipedia, I also understand the significance of maintaining a respectful and inclusive environment for all contributors. Regrettably, the recent experiences of bullying have hindered my ability to continue engaging in a constructive manner within the community. In light of these circumstances, I have made the difficult decision to step back and refrain from making any further edits pertaining to my area of interest. I trust that this action will help alleviate any tensions or conflicts that may have arisen and contribute to a more harmonious environment on Wikipedia. I sincerely appreciate the opportunities I have had to contribute to the platform thus far, and I would like to extend my gratitude to @Girth Summit and @Starkex who have supported and guided me during this time. I highly respect @AngelicDevil29, though a fallen soldier, nonetheless his contributions to the minority community topics on Wikipedia are great. I even respect that I have had the pleasure of being called a sockpuppet account of his by a certain user (which of course I am not). My commitment to promoting knowledge and understanding remains unwavering, and I will continue to contribute in areas outside my topic of interest. Thank you for your attention to this matter and I wish the Wikipedia community continued success in its mission to provide accurate and accessible information to a global audience.

Additional note: In some time, I will personally travel hundreds of kilometres to the Institute of Sindhology's library to prove my case on the provided Kolachi reference which has been removed even though it respects WP:RS and is in English. I am serious about this and will provide scanned images of the book to prove my innocence to Sitush. So I hope this matter is addressed now. Thanks. Sir Calculus (talk) 10:54, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sutyarashi This message may be of interest to you. You are allowed to revert, completely remove the tribes template I worked on or do whatever you deem necessary you want on Sindh related articles as you have experience on Wikipedia. I will no longer call you out for bias towards my community and will not object to the removal of content. You are free to remove anything you want. Good luck. Sir Calculus (talk) 10:59, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sir Calculus There is no need to stop contributing. Wikipedia needs contributors. The crux of the issue is that tribe/caste/ethnic groups of Pakistan, India etc is an incredibly contentious area of the project and requires a pretty good grounding in policies & guidelines, or a willingness to listen, learn and accept from the outset. It is, unfortunately, a graveyard for many new editors.

My advice to you, as to most new editors, is to contribute first in relatively benign subject areas, build up some knowledge of how we operate in a less frenetic environment, and then apply that knowledge in your approach to the more contentious subjects. Going away and then returning won't actually help most newer contributors because they will still have a knowledge deficit with regard to how to do things on Wikipedia.

There are a lot of single-purpose accounts, as yours seems to be, which hit this problem. Perhaps it is inevitable: controversial subjects are controversial in large part because people wade in with different views &, like rubber-neckers at a road traffic accident, that brings in more people & more controversy. The good news is that, in my experience, most people have more than one interest & so can, if they choose, take a sideways step into a less stressful area. I would encourage you to do this: going sideways for a while is likely to be more beneficial for you than retreating & then advancing again on to the same subject. - Sitush (talk) 11:25, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay thanks. Sir Calculus (talk) 11:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Kalhora

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Sundi caste

@Sitush Sir, you are senior than me but it doesn't mean that you can just ignore the fact and the reality.. because of you people's our society is getting misleading.. when you don't have proper knowledge... then you should atleast have a proper research on that.... Listen sir I belong to this caste only if you want proof than i can provide you with my caste certificate also, which is directly made by government... Sir a caste never be Dalit and OBC at same time. then I can provide you with government Sources where it is clearly mentioned that Sundhi caste is a Sub caste of Bania... I can give you best clearly in it... You can't even say sundhi as dalit... it is proper vaishya caste according to government. I don't think that you are from India or here that's why you don't know about caste system of india and dalits. It's my request PLEASE DON'T MISGUIDE the peoples have a proper clearly and research. Raj Hanse (talk) 04:25, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Thought I'd ask...

I recently speedy-deleted four articles created by the Koli sockmaster, Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala, that you had helped clean up a bit:

• Babar Deva
• Joban Pagi
• Rama Kirve
• Nemshah Mukne

Let me now if you would like to have any of these undeleted. Abecedare (talk) 22:58, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@Abecedare Pfft. I recognise that sockmaster from years ago. Am content with the redlinks, thanks. - Sitush (talk) 00:08, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Eraser Barnstar
		I Fowler&fowler award this barnstar to Sitush for doing yoeman's work, ... nay stalwart work, ... nay prolific and trend-setting work in removing unnecessary information from Wikipedia, especially that extolling the bane of caste. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:56, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler Thank you. It's a bit soul-destroying, tbh. To paraphrase Opprnheimer quoting the Bhagvadad Gita, I am become Death, the destroyer of prose. - Sitush (talk) 00:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

There might be some truth in that, though my Barnstar was a token of true appreciation. Todd, Risley, Ibbetson, Thurston, Crooke, and others await your return. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:02, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

As do the censuses of British India, 1871 to 1941. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:06, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Caste-based disruption

HI, i am recently coming from a cleanup of articles disrupted by the Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala/koli sock network, User talk:Abecedare#Caste-based disruption. Seeing that you have recently removed a lot of caste cruft added by this network, can you please look into the spurious additons at Gabat State and Ilol State and Ambliara State as well.

Thanks Gotitbro (talk) 17:52, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

• Also, about WP:CASTEID, is the consensus not for self-identification/reliable sources? I had added this bit after noticing a back and forth edit disruption by IPs. There was controversy raised over claims of her being a non-Keralite (with the release of her film The Kerala Story) when she actually is half-Malayali and a Palakkad/Kerala Iyer. Considering this I thought it would be relevant to list what she herself has stated about her. Gotitbro (talk) 02:41, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Gotitbro If a person is living then we can only show the caste with which they self-identify in reliable sources (assuming that they do so at all). It isn't really a CASTEID thing but rather a straightforward application of BLP. Similarly, we can only show self-identified religion.

  Both of the above apply to categories also, covered by BLPCAT. - Sitush (talk) 02:48, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  Where CASTEID comes in is really a matter of relevance. Living people might identify with a caste, or dead people might be identified with one, but it may have no great relevance to their notability etc & thus is as trivial as which cricket team they support. - Sitush (talk) 02:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  I see, while I think the controversy raised would pertain to her work but in a restrictive sense it does not unless her work also comes to centre on it if that is what the interpretation of CASTEID is.

  But then again we do mention these details in articles of importance such as Mahatama Gandhi etc. Where would then CASTEID limit itself in such cases? Gotitbro (talk) 02:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Gotitbro I haven't looked specifically at either of your examples. In most cases, caste should not need to be mentioned but examples where it would be relevant might include when the person is leader of a caste association, such as the Nair Service Society, or when they have been elected to parliament from a reserved seat. There are grey areas, so a bit of discretion and common sense is needed. - Sitush (talk) 03:06, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  Oh, and I slightly misled you about categorising people by caste, sorry: we should never do it, dead or alive. That is a consensus & I've written about it somewhere in my userspace. - Sitush (talk) 03:06, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  The application of the policy does appear to be quite tricky. In general I think we can follow WP:3PARTY sources in such cases i.e. if a general tertiary biography mentions the fact of their caste we can apply it in our article's context where relevant. These though may be readily available only for more prominent personalities.

  In other cases I understand that they are best left out, unless their politics or work provides otherwise. I see the thing about caste cats, thanks. Gotitbro (talk) 03:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Gotitbro I hate it when Indian newspapers refer to someone's caste for reasons that seem to be pure clickbait. That sort of thing should definitely be avoided here. - Sitush (talk) 03:34, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  By 3PARTY, I meant to refer to WP:TERTIARY (encyclopedias et. al.) not newspapers (many of which are not reliable in such matters anyhow unless listing a self-stated description). Gotitbro (talk) 03:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• About the non-diffusion of caste cats in bios: a sock network has added Category:Gurjar (along with creating a whole host of dubious ones) to any article that barely matched in wording with "Gurjar" etc.. Wile I have removed the most obviously blatant cases where these were clearly not applicable, there appear to be a few bios that have een populated with the cat. Please take a look when you get the time. Thanks. Gotitbro (talk) 07:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Gotitbro Sorted those out a day or two ago. - Sitush (talk) 13:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• Sorry, for disturbing you yet again, but caste craft just keeps popping up. Can you please see Mutharaiyar dynasty and Muthuraja, where there appears to be an attempt to conflate the two in the latter caste's article but does not appear to be constructive. Gotitbro (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  Also Paravar, the lead is what alerted me here, definitely a problematic article. Gotitbro (talk) 21:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Notable List on Vanniyar page

I tagged you on an edit request on Vanniyar talk page to add Auto Shankar in the list. I provided the citation link from a reliable source as one of the replies to the user on the talk page. Please add him back to the list . Also I am curious , why did you remove Kaduvetti Guru from the list? He is dead for past 5 years. Not sure why BLP restriction is applicable to him. 24thHusbandofDraupathi (talk) 14:18, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Please see

Sir, if you can, please have a look at this one. Thanks. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:36, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk I'd like to see all of these caste lists deleted. They're mostly contrary to WP:CASTEID and the consensus on not categorising people by caste They are timesinks. They are replete with BLP violations and poor sourcing, which in the case of Indian newspaper sources often is, I think, circular. They add little to our knowledge and attract the worst of caste warriors and SPAs. Some are already lengthy, almost unmanageable, and there is no end to it, as I said a few hours ago at Talk:List of Brahmins. - Sitush (talk) 10:00, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, 100%. We can have an RfC on this (deletion of such lists) at WP:INB. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:07, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk I'm useless at RfCs. Also, there is a large group of people across the entire en-WP community who are, at worst, obsessed with lists of all varieties or, if not that extreme, at least think they do no harm and are by default encyclopaedic. Hence, it has always been extremely difficult even to get existing lists deleted at AfD. I really don't know what means we poor maintainers have at our disposal to free up our time to do more useful things. Add into that mix the fact that far too many people simply don't understand caste, so "it's not my problem, guv". - Sitush (talk) 10:18, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk I have had a go at an RfC at WT:INB. I expect to be shot down by the proceduralists - most RfCs I see seem to have people objecting that they are "malformed". But hey-ho. - Sitush (talk) 19:44, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Please have a look at this. Thanks. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:17, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk I cleaned up & left a note on Talk:Sahota but have been reverted. Suspect the editor is not new to Wikipedia but their own talk page was blank. - Sitush (talk) 15:13, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding recent discussion on caste lists

Hi Sitush, I can understand what you're thinking about those caste lists. I also clean up some of the caste articles and lists occassionally. One thing i can't understand that how so much source are available for people of some caste groups verifying XYZ person belonging to that caste group and nothing like that is available for several other castes. I mean, do we have any list for caste like Nishad, Dhanuk, Paswan and even Kurmi? There is nothing like that, on the other hand, for caste like Brahmins, Rajputs, how they are able to find out that some of the most important people of India are from these castes. I can't believe that Dhyanchand had said in any interview to some newspaper that he is Rajput. I read in some newspaper that his daughter uses Saini surname. I doubt that for the purpose of associating these important personality with particular castes, fake sources are produced here on Wikipedia. Newspapers of India sometimes takes stuff from Wikipedia and such claims get published again and again by different newspapers, making them a member of that caste group, even if they weren't.-Admantine123 (talk) 17:35, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 Newspapers recycling bilge from our articles is certainly a problem. I mentioned it in my opening blurb for the RfC. - Sitush (talk) 00:13, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

If you get time, please see Battle of Madarpur. I tried restoring the last best version, but I think that it's not notable event at all, to be included in Wikipedia. On Google search, only source I found which mentions in depth about this is [6], interestingly it's written by some Bhumihar caste reformer, and can't be considered as reliable. Also, the lede of article itself say that "Bhumihar Brahmin Vanshawali" mentions about this battle. That one was written by Sahajanand Saraswati, a caste leader from same caste. In such situation, we lack Secondary sources for this article.-Admantine123 (talk) 05:17, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 Saraswati isn't reliable. In fact, I think he was really quite deranged. - Sitush (talk) 03:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

If Brahmins have done something then their name will definitely be there, anyway Rajputs and Brahmins are still on many posts in Indian Army, have taken many awards, and there are many records from Rajasthan to other areas which are showing the achievements of Brahmins. , Then why would they lie, 800 years of slavery could not erase the name of Brahmins and Rajputs from India, so why hide the truth now 103.206.179.90 (talk) 18:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Brahmins were the main target from Turkish to Mughals, many of Brahmins have been martyred because they were called Kafir !

brahmins have fought on their own from 712 ad till 1947 103.206.179.90 (talk) 18:04, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

@103.206.179.90 I'm really not interested in messages which appear to be from caste warriors & glorifiers, regardless of caste. If you have something useful to say, and sources to support it, then OK but otherwise please stop. - Sitush (talk) 18:07, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

List of Yadav politicians

What to do with this list List of Yadav politicians. Clean-up is also a difficult task, but i believe most of the entry here violates WP:CASTEID Admantine123 (talk) 17:42, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 Isn't there a List of Yadavs? if so, merge it into that list and redirect. Clear duplication/POV fork, so I would be bold and just do it rather than go through the merge proposal routine.

If any are unsourced then delete from the list. If any of the sourced ones are for living people & the source doesn't show self-identification then delete those, too. Last name is not verification. - Sitush (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Also for many notables here, there is no Wikipedia article. Being a list article WP: WTAF will apply. I will do as you suggested after finishing some work. Thanks.-Admantine123 (talk) 18:28, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Also there exists Yadav (surname), no list of Yadavs exist there, as it is very difficult to get sources having self identification with a particular caste. But, this surname list also contains many names, who are not using Yadav surname, similar case as Saini surname. (ex: Rao Tula Ram is mentioned in this list).-Admantine123 (talk) 18:37, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 Yes, that is a common issue when people repurpose lists. If they don't bear the name Yadav then they shouldn't be in Yadav (surname), and that list needs a disclaimer for BLP purposes, noting that being called Yadav doesn't mean that they are of the Yadav caste.

The politicians list really should be at List of Yadavs. I suspect that way back in time we did have such a list. The Yadav caste glorifiers have been among the worst of that type in my experience & I'd be astonished if no such list ever existed. - Sitush (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I found that most of the sources there do not mention anything about the caste of notables. I am okay with that surname article, but this list of Yadav politicians is a gross violation of WP:BLP. They have used caste website like [7] as source. It is above ones capacity to clean up. It is surely a WP: POVFORK. Also Yadav (surname) was earlier List of Yadavs, until it was moved by a user. Hence, i have nominated it for delition as we don't require such a POVFORK, with gross BLP violation and lack of verifiablity. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Yadav politicians -Admantine123 (talk) 08:35, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Caste POV

Please have a look at this article. Caste POV pushers keep on adding it contravening WP:CASTEID policy [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]. I've requested PP. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:12, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Caste lists RFC on the talk page for India wikipedia project

I support your assertion and have added a comment. However, it seems like the discussion hasn't had an update? Are we not pursuing it anymore? Wrythemann (talk) 18:17, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Friendly ping - I would really like to see 99% of caste lists gone. Wrythemann (talk) 17:48, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@Wrythemann Sorry, I'm having long-ish breaks from WP & then frenetic bouts of editing.

RfCs get closed independently & this one, certainly, was centrally notified & therefore likely to find a closer. I haven't looked at it for a while but it was getting bogged down in tangential minutiae, which was threatening to derail the entire thing and probably now has. My own opinion hasn't changed and in fact a discussion this week at Talk:List of Rajputs rather strengthens it - a similar argument could be had, for example, of whether Bhumihars should be included in a list of Brahmins, given the Bhumihars claim to be Brahmin but their claim isn't widely accepted. These lists are just huge timesinks for minimal gain. - Sitush (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you - these lists are huge time sinks with zero encyclopedic value. Wrythemann (talk) 20:29, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Surnames/clan/subcaste

There are many terms, which are used both as surname and subcaste. As for example is this Aulakh. It's a Jat clan and many people use it as surname. So, is it ok to go like this for such articles, where we can give some background of the origin or association of the term with some caste groups and then giving a disclaimer that as a surname it may or may not be associated with that particular caste. (To serve as both a clan article and surname list, as standalone article of clan and surname seperately can't exist due to notability issues.) Admantine123 (talk) 18:42, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 I don't like mixing caste and surname lists. I would rather the surname list just stuck to any relevant etymology + the actual list of people than blur the lines with caste commentary. I think caste warriors, in particular, like to game the system and mixing the two helps them.

The compromise I developed was to make it as clear as possible that being a person in the list did not imply that they were of the caste. I introduced some fairly boilerplate text for this, principally because of BLP issues.

What is certain is that there is a longstanding consensus that last name does not ever verify caste in the context of Wikipedia. My favourite example is Helen Reddy, who most certainly is unconnected to Reddy. - Sitush (talk) 20:27, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Most of the Jat clans are existing as surname articles itself. Like we have Sandhu, Randhawa, Virk etc. The Kurmis also use several surnames, which are also their subcaste, a case similar to these jat surname articles. In fact, we can't create seperate article on Jaiswar, Katiyar, Sachan, Gangwar. Because, we can't expand them. But as surname article they can have some stuff. It is easy to find 4-5 Wikipedia articles of people with every surname. Admantine123 (talk) 20:34, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 If they aren't notable as clans, it seems like coatracking to finagle a surname list to achieve that purpose. I'll be honest: most surname lists aren't worth the effort anyway, unless perhaps they serve some useful function for some people on the autistic spectrum (no offence intended to anyone). The only way in which they have an encyclopaedic purpose is as an aid to navigation/disambiguation ... and I guarantee you that in the case of Indic surnames that isn't in the mind of their creators. - Sitush (talk) 20:41, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

You are right. But, i found many people asking here and there, like on quora, about the indic surnames and the caste with which they are associated. Many caste website provides wrong info by associating that surname with themselves. As for example, Jatland.com will tell you that every surname belongs to jats only. There is one IndianRajput.com, which also claims the same. There is a genuine need to find a way forward for this. Admantine123 (talk) 20:48, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 I don't think there is a need to find a way forward. Disinformation, ignorance and plain stupidity will always exist and always have an audience - Wikipedia isn't a fact-checking organisation & indeed specifically notes that its information is only verifiable, not "true". - Sitush (talk) 21:07, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I would rather the surname list just stuck to any relevant etymology + the actual list of people, take an example of Yadav surname. Its recent origin can be traced from what we call Sanskritisation of cow herding people from gangetic plain, who adopted the surname to link themselves with Yadu dynasty. Do you mean this by your words i highlighted above? (Similar is the case with origin of Saini surname, when gardening population of north western India started calling them as Sainik Kshatriya, in short Saini) Admantine123 (talk) 21:01, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 The less we say about a caste in a surname list, the better. I accept that it cannot always be entirely avoided but generally speaking I'd rather the caste was mentioned just as a dabhat etc ... and if we can't dab because the caste lacks notability for a standalone article then don't bother at all.

But I'm sure the inclusionists, and in particular the thousands who choose to view Indic articles from afar, will disagree with me. Their grandiose desires are often, frankly, arrogant - it's easy to set goals from a distance, hard to appreciate the effort needed to attain and maintain them. - Sitush (talk) 21:14, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Few months ago, I was reverted by Utcursh, when i tried to convert it into a proper surname article here [13] and [14]. This one also uses a particular source, which talks about a small region, to include various communities in list of Mahtos. In short, this is also acting as surname/clan/title article altogether. Actually, only two or three community of this list has used Mahto surname historically. Sometimes Mahto used to be title of some village headman, but this list article shouldn't mean so. It is about surname isn't it. Admantine123 (talk) 04:21, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 Utcursh has more experience than me & must have reasons. Did you ask? - Sitush (talk) 07:29, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

He replied the same, i am saying here. Even in his edit summary, he said that Mahto is both a clan name and title, besides surname. The one source from Sachidanand had discussed that in some of the revenue villages many communities can be a Mahto (a title used for revenue collectors for Zamindars), hence he allowed the article to serve the dual purpose. Admantine123 (talk) 07:32, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

You marked my edits 'poor'

Greetings. How are you? I noticed you have been marking my edits as 'poor', though I do have proper citations and did follow the WP:CASTE mandate. You also stated you couldn't view the sources but it was visible through me.

I wanted to change my edit. Rajputs of Gujarat have had historical marriages with other Gujarati communities such as the Patidars, Kolis, and others. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Census_of_India_1961/b7vUAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=rajput+patidar+marriages&dq=rajput+patidar+marriages&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Routledge_Handbook_of_Contemporary_India/--9WCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=rajput+patidar+marriages&pg=PA274&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Census_of_India_1961/IgAdAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=rajput+patidar+marriages&dq=rajput+patidar+marriages&printsec=frontcover

Sources have noted the marriages amongst the Gujarati communities. No2WesternImperialism (talk) 03:40, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@No2WesternImperialism Use the Routledge source because it is academic & relatively recent. The commentary in the 1961 census was often just copied from the Raj era census.

Hypergamy isn't unique to Gujarat, of course, eg the Nairs in S India have hypergamous marriages with Nambudiris. - Sitush (talk) 07:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

If you don't mind, can you please re-add the photos along with princely states and famous personalities? No2WesternImperialism (talk) 05:44, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

@No2WesternImperialism Why would I do that? - Sitush (talk) 07:07, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Again

A new user bloating the article again [15], seems WP:OR and also large chunks are unsourced. I've opened a new SPI case here. Please have a look. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:07, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk@Sitush . I am just adding sources not in this article but in other articles too. Plus I saw the history of this guy @Fylindfotberserk. This guy removing useful content from every Indian page related to castes , geography & this guy promoting his caste though you never see his old edits by thinking that he is an old Barn star editor. Lotus109 (talk) 20:14, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

@Lotus109: What are you talking about? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 20:18, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I check history of the page which you are talking about and I am the only new user there so its simple you are talking about me simple its not rocket science bro.Hope you got what I am taking about. Lotus109 (talk) 20:22, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I am added in random kind of Investigation

Hi ! Admin or Editor , I am added to an investigation & I am replying there but i have no idea what is that its here. Tell me what is that.

Thank You. Lotus109 (talk) 21:12, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

RfC on the "Airlines and destinations" tables in airport articles

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) § RfC on the "Airlines and destinations" tables in airport articles. I saw that you participated in a discussion on a similar topic. Sunnya343 (talk) 18:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Most of the Indian which are locked have random or not reliable sources

Articles related to caste, particularly those concerning the Jats and lists of individuals, lack reliable sources, as they are currently locked. I observed that Fylindfotberserk and NitinMlk have been adding random information, which appears to be copied from Jatland.com and is sourced from books that have referenced Jatland. Lotus109 (talk) 20:21, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

@Lotus109 You appear to know a lot about Wikipedia for someone with 21 edits. Is this your first account? - Sitush (talk) 02:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

This one is my second account I have one account in 2016 in my college days but I don't remember the username and passowrd of that account. I am talking about below vandalisation :

See Shikhar Dhawan article it says he is Khatri by caste but in the article List of Jats he is included as Jat and you know what is the source ? random song tweet by him same goes for Ved Prakash Malik in his main article no mention of caste but he is also added just by using tweets in he is just mentioned part of a community which according to me means part of army as he was the chief of army so every community is family.

Same goes for Ranjit Singh , this book mentioned him Sansi but he was added in List of Jats by using this book and the author himself says Ranjit Singh being a Jat is just as theory , rest of the two sources taken the Raj Sources which also says its just a theory. This video is of Sansi people which arr thanking the SGPC for accepting Ranjit Singh was Sansi.

Now I am adding below fake articles created by Jats without any source:

1. Sidmukh State its a tehsil in Rajasthan but added as Jat State in List of Jats article and there ruler name is also added i.e Raja Maldeo but his page have no sources.
2. Teja Ji his main article says he is Jat from ABP website but Navbharat Times says he is Rajput see this. There are many pages like this I will add sooner.

Lotus109 (talk) 19:25, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

3. Another one Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal is added in List of Jats but all the census & books mentioned them Rajputs. See below links :

First second 3rd 4th Lotus109 (talk) 19:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

4. Charkhi Dadri - Its says this : . In May 1864, some fifty Sangwan Jat villages revolted against his descendant Raja Raghbir Singh but the rebellion was crushed. Three principal villages which took part in the rebellion, Charkhi, Mankinas and Jhanjhu, were burned down.

But when open the linked book i.e used as source than there nothing about this incident even Sangwan word is also not mentioned. Lotus109 (talk) 19:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

5. This one is the biggest one till now Sikh Empire is added in List of Jat Dynasties all 10 Gurus were Khatris , most of the Sikh Saheeds & Gurbani authors are Brahmins & warriors from different communities like Ramgarhia , Ahluwalia , Valmiki etc. Why not Sikh empire written as Khatri empire or Sansi empire as Ranjit Singh was Sansi. Lotus109 (talk) 19:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Same in List of Jat Dynasties they just added Random tows as dynasty or state without any source & funny thing is all these pages are locked. If you can allow these pages to unlocked than I can patrol them & edit them. Lotus109 (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Lotus109 You can make edit requests on the article talk pages anyway. Protection in its various forms isn't a step taken lightly but valid arguments for changes to protected articles are always accommodated. - Sitush (talk) 21:47, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

This User is Targetting Specific Caste Based Pages

He's been derailing Maratha and Brahman Peshwa pages. I suggest you stop doing it. He's e some it to the point of completely destroying whole sources and paras. Thewikiuser1999 (talk) 17:42, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

done it to* Thewikiuser1999 (talk) 17:43, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

@Thewikiuser1999 You are topic banned from anything related to India, Pakistan or Afghanistan. If you had read the information about the effects of this, you would know that it means you cannot even refer to such matters on talk pages. - Sitush (talk) 17:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I suggest mods to check his edit history, he's targeting caste and regional based articles related to Mithila and Brahmans. Thewikiuser1999 (talk) 18:04, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

@Thewikiuser1999 Sigh: care to take a look, Bishonen? - Sitush (talk) 18:10, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes take a look @Bishonen Thewikiuser1999 (talk) 18:12, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Regar

Hi Sitush - glad to see you are back to "full time" editing. If you have time (ha ha), could you please look at Talk:Regar#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_14_October_2023. I assume we can dismiss the 1901 census, but was the 1951 census suddenly reliable on caste matters, despite being held so soon after independence? Many thanks - Arjayay (talk) 10:06, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

@Arjayay Not back full-time. There will be big gaps - this place becomes quite depressing/frustrating.

1951 & 1961 census just took their descriptions, commentary etc from the Raj era efforts. I've no idea whether they have any merit statistically but we shouldn't be using their verbiage. - Sitush (talk) 10:11, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks - hope you keep improving - I've amended the link in my original post, which should have been to the talk page - sorry - Arjayay (talk) 10:31, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Have a look

Please have a look at this article. Thanks. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 20:08, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Spmeone re-added those [16]. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk I'm lost on mobile. As far as I can see, a couple of admins have reverted & there is a topic ban in place. Am I looking at the wrong article? Is there some reason why you can't fix it if it isn't right? - Sitush (talk) 16:06, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Toda

Good work on pruning Toda. Little did I know that when I last edited it in October 2007, that stub would overgrow in such fashion. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler Ha! Thanks. Pure happenstance to come across it as I was fixing the numerous overcategorisations which were apparent at Category:Social groups of India. Toda got a light prune; some others have been more slash-and-burn. - Sitush (talk) 14:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Suraj Pal Chauhan

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page Suraj Pal Chauhan, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

• A "bare URL and missing title" error. References show this error when they do not have a title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

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Indic Script Consensus

Please kindly read my discussion under User_talk:Javierfv1212#Replacing_Devanagari_with_Brahmi and User_talk:Symphing12#Aṣṭādhyāyī and maybe let's begin anew a talk about consesus on using Indic Scripts, because I think those contained in Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_48#Native_languages_in_lead (re:lead)] and Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_64#Multiple_Indicscript_in_infoboxes_are_out_of_control (re:infobox) are dated. noychoH (talk) 21:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

@NoychoH I have already responded there, following your first message here. - Sitush (talk) 22:19, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Dumal page

I found out that you deleted all of the data I had inserted in the page Dumal without even doing a cross check of the data sources. I had cited the national archives website of the Indian government as my source. kindly re add those data after visiting the site and please text me if you need any kind of help regarding the data. thank you. Ashutoshkalta823 (talk) 11:59, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ashutoshkalta823 I gave reasons in my edit summaries. Which do you not understand? - Sitush (talk) 12:04, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

You said the citation is incorrect and dumal is not mentioned in the book, maybe you should have gone to the exact page to read about the article, or you could have atleast asked the editor about the source first. I didn't just took from any other site, it's the national site for indian culture and from there only I cited a government published book. Please do take another look at it. Ashutoshkalta823 (talk) 19:13, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ashutoshkalta823 Why not quote me the relevant bit? A lot of what I removed were books from the Raj era which, even if on a government website, aren't considered reliable for our articles, per the information at WP:RAJ. - Sitush (talk) 19:33, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Please do take a look at the link https://indianculture.gov.in/gazettes/orissa-district-gazetteers-boudh-khondmals page number 71. Thank you. Ashutoshkalta823 (talk) 09:08, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ashutoshkalta823 Done. It seems that the problem is the embedded search function there missed the terms such as Dumal/Dumals which I searched for ... and I searched because you didn't provide a page number when Citing. Feel free to use that source for whatever statements you want to make at the article. - Sitush (talk) 09:25, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Really thank you a lot for giving your precious time. I tried giving the page number in the citation but it didn't work, and all the data I had inserted were mentioned here and there in pieces throughout the whole book for which I didn't mentioned the pages. Anyways thanks a lot. Ashutoshkalta823 (talk) 10:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ashutoshkalta823 Give me a short time & I will prepare a citation which you can copy/paste into the article with whatever information you want to add. I'll ping you here for it. - Sitush (talk) 10:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Can you please kindly re add those deletions if it's possible for you to through any single click or something like that, because it's asking me to type all those again from the beginning. Ashutoshkalta823 (talk) 10:38, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ashutoshkalta823 The citation can be <ref>{{cite book |title=Gazetteer of India: Orissa: Boudh-Khondmald |publisher=Government of Orissa |year=1983 |pages=71-72 |editor1-first=Nilamani |editor1-last=Senapati |editor2-first=Durga Charan |editor2-last=Kuanr |url=https://indianculture.gov.in/gazettes/orissa-district-gazetteers-boudh-khondmals}}</ref> It isn't the easiest book to cite but this will do. You can edit the page numbers as you see fit, eg change to "71-72, 94" (without the quotes) if you want to mention p 94.

The result will appear as:

References

- Sitush (talk) 10:52, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ashutoshkalta823 It is difficult for me to self-revert on mobile. There are subsequent edits & it isn't possible to copy/paste the content back in via the page history. The edit which needs to be reverted is this one & perhaps some talk page watcher here might do it. You'll need to straighten out the citations fairly soon after, though, and at least each paragraph should have a cite at the end if it, even if it is to the same page of the book. - Sitush (talk) 11:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ashutoshkalta823 I found a way to reinstate the stuff. It needs citing properly, certainly within a few days. - Sitush (talk) 11:36, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

thank you, thank you a lot for your time and support. Ashutoshkalta823 (talk) 18:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ashutoshkalta823 You still need to sort out the citations, with correct page numbers, otherwise the information is liable to be removed again. - Sitush (talk) 07:36, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I see, thanks for the information, I will cite with page numbers tomorrow. Ashutoshkalta823 (talk) 17:32, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Category removal question

Hi Sitush, I noticed your recent removal of categories from several articles on my watchlist:

• Bindu Ammini [17], removal of Category:Dalit feminists, with the edit summary "we don't categorise people by caste etc". Her caste is not only sourced, but her role as a Dalit activist also seems to be a notable part of her biography (see e.g. WP:CASTEID). I have a question about why this category was removed, based on my understanding of the WP:CASTEID discussion.
• Meena Kotwal [18], removal of Category:Dalit women, with the edit summary "we don't categorise people by caste etc". Her role as a Dalit journalist is well-sourced (although it appears you removed sources that help show this from the lead [19]), and it would seem Category:Dalit women writers and Category:Dalit writers also apply. I have a similar question about why these categories should not be included with this article.
• Baby Halder [20] (removal of Category:Dalit women writers and Category:Dalit writers), with the edit summary "we don't categorise people by caste etc"; caste does not appear to be mentioned in the article or in sources I spot-checked, and I would remove the categories if there is no support in the sources, so I do not have a question about this article at this time.

I would appreciate hearing your perspective on these issues. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 01:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

@Beccaynr Could hsve saved yourself a lot of typing, I think, because my edit summaries stated we don't categorise people by caste etc. Nothing to do with sourcing in individual articles etc.

The consensus precedes CASTEID, I think, and may originate with CFD. I have some links somewhere and will try to find - a bit tricky on mobile but they're on some page in my userspace. I had no participation in wherever it originated.

If we suddenly make an exception for Dalits, I guarantee you umpteen other castes will then demand similar treatment because, despite what Dalit activists shout, there are hundreds of seriously disadvantaged non-Dalit communities also. - Sitush (talk) 06:02, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

There is an example link at User:Sitush/Common#Castecats, which in turn links to earlier examples. It is possible that SpacemanSpiff knows more about when the consensus emerged - I'm pretty sure that's who told me of it - but Spiffy has been largely inactive for some time & might not want to comment at present. (Caste stuff here is soul-destroying, burn-out is common, and we need to retain every decent contributor we possibly can because there have been many thousands of malign or incompetent ones over the years.) - Sitush (talk) 06:46, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, my question is generally related to the categories, not Dalit-related, although I see in your edit history that recent removals of categories have had a focus on Dalit-related categories, e.g.

• Raja Dhale [21] Category:Dalit activists, Category:Dalit writers
• Ramsharan Darnal [22] Category:Dalit activists, Category:Dalit writers
• Suraj Pal Chauhan [23] Category:Dalit writers and removal of a source; other edits to this article include removals of sources that may help support the significance/relevance of the category [24]
• Manoranjan Byapari [25] Category:Dalit writers (and removal of a source that may help support the significance of the category [26] - Mint)
• Anand Teltumbde [27] Category:Dalit writers, Category:Dalit activists
• Shantabai Kamble [28] Category:Dalit women writers, Category:Dalit writers
• Meena Kandasamy [29] Category:Dalit women writers, Category:Dalit writers
• Narendra Jadhav [30] Category:Dalit writers, Category:Dalit (and removal of an Asia Times review by Jason Overdorf of the book Outcaste: A Memoir by Narendra Jadhav [31])
• Madara Chennaiah [32] Category:Dalit writers, Category:Dalit Hindu saints, Category:Dalit saints
• Sharankumar Limbale [33] Category:Dalit writers
• K. Nath [34] Category:Dalit writers
• Yashica Dutt [35] Category:Dalit writers, Category:Dalit women writers (a source in the article includes: Coming out as Dalit: how one Indian author finally embraced her identity, The Guardian)
• Rekha Raj [36] Category:Dalit women writers, Category:Dalit writers, Category:Dalit activists
• Shantabai Dhanaji Dani [37] Category:Dalit feminists, Category:Dalit writers, Category:Dalit women writers
• Prahlad Shinde [38] Category:Dalit artists (this source is in the article: Dalit shahirs of Maharashtra: Prahlad Shinde's dual approaches to music, Firstpost)
• Kanjibhai Rathod [39] Category:Dalit artists
• Malvika Raj [40] Category:Dalit artists
• Adarsh Shinde [41] Category:Dalit artists
• Mimi Mondal [42] Category:Dalit artists
• Jagannath Pahadia [43] Category:Dalit politicians
• Jagjivan Ram [44] Category:Dalit politicians
• T. N. Sadalakshmi [45] Category:Dalit women, Category:Dalit politicians
• Chandrashekhar Azad Ravan [46] Category:Dalit activists (and removal of a source that may help emphasize the significance of Dalit-related activism [47])
• Grace Banu [48] Category:Dalit activists
• Marimuthu Bharathan [49] Category:Dalit activists
• Civic Chandran [50] Category:Dalit activists
• Jaglal Choudhary [51] Category:Dalit activists
• Mudnakudu Chinnaswamy [52] Category:Dalit activists
• Ram Babu Harit [53] Category:Dalit activists

There are more similar removals in your edit history that have also happened recently. I have not closely examined the sourcing for all of these articles, or the relevance/significance that the categories may have for the biographies (e.g. per WP:CASTEID). I also do not have a lot of familiarity with the category system, but I see in some CfD examples you pointed to that sourcing was discussed, e.g. 2011 Kamma people CfD; 2009 Nair people CfD.

From my view, with the categories existing and often seeming applicable to biographies if proper sourcing exists, this seems to potentially be an ongoing issue without some more centralized clarification. For example, Category:Dalit politicians states, "Features politicians from the Dalit community." Category:Dalit women states, "Dalit Women features Dalit Women of note from all around the world." Category:Dalit artists states, "Artists from the Dalit community who made significant contributions to various art forms like literature, poetry, music, painting, etc."

I am wondering if starting a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Categories or Wikipedia talk:Categorization might be helpful - would you have a preference for a forum? Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 14:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

@Beccaynr I have no particular desire to discuss it anywhere. Most people accept it, and especially those who actually know something about caste & its issues.

The Category descriptions bear no relation to the creators' knowledge of the consensus, otherwise they would not have been created in the first place. Sources are irrelevant, too. You seem to be putting the cart before the horse, ie the cat exists therefore we must populate it.

As far as I am aware, there is nothing to stop you creating categories for, say, Indian politicians elected from reserved seats. Or anti-caste activists etc. The whole Dalit thing is a SJW magnet, of course, but that's not my problem: check back and you'll see that I periodically clean up bios for, say, Brahmins or Rajputs. I really couldn't care less what group is involved, and nor should anyone else because those who do are enabling the politicisation of this project.

Not sure why you felt the need to list a whole load of recent edits. Seems a bit passive-aggressive to me, given I know what I did 24 hours or so ago - I'm not senile yet. If you were trying to embarrass me, it hasn't worked. - Sitush (talk) 15:54, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Maybe the most efficient way to avoid anyone being categorized by caste, regardless of whether sourcing exists, and regardless of whether sources demonstrate caste as relevant or significant to a biography, is to have a CfD for caste-related categories that appear created for people, such as e.g. Category:Dalit politicians, Category:Dalit women, and Category:Dalit artists, noted in my comment above. Then the categories would simply be removed from all of the biographies, if consensus exists to delete such categories. Beccaynr (talk) 20:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

@Beccaynr Or we could just follow existing consensus instead of creating a huge storm by mobilising our very efficient but clueless do-gooders who know nothing at all about caste and don't give a crap about the ramifications. But I have no idea why you are musing on my talk page because it seems like faux politeness to me: you have already decided. Fill your boots. - Sitush (talk) 03:15, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Guruvayoor satyagraha

Hi , sitush I was recently reading the page Guruvayoor Satyagraha and found the recently added topic 'kandooth assault'. I cannot see the connection beetween both as potrayed in the article , can u please check . ? Bilgiljilll (talk) 05:02, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bilgiljilll Sure, I'll take a look later today. - Sitush (talk) 05:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bilgiljilll Kandooth appears to be at the wrong time and in a different place but I'm a bit hampered by not being able to see all of the sources due to how Google Books varies what it shows depending on location. (I have occasionally used a VPN because of that.)

It might just qualify as an item in a See also section, if it is indeed tangential rather than directly connected. I'll try to do some research but that can be a pain on mobile.

There is a tendency for coatracking and similar wherever Thiyyar/Ezhava issues raise their head, and in particular by those who claim Thiyyar is a completely separate caste & want to promote a distinct identity. This might be one of those times but hey-ho. - Sitush (talk) 05:54, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes , sure , Thanks for your reply , well you clearly understood the issue beetween the ezhava variations ,Coming to this , As per what i have studied i dont think that "kandoth assault" is very much related or a big factor that lead to the guruvayur rebellion as per the recent addition in the article nor i think that it have such an importance for that to be a big highlighting and detailed paragraph in the article. I fail to see any such relation beetwen both from the references. these are from independent sources correlated in the article. After reading that i feel like the page is dedicated to promote the kandoth assault rather than guruvayoor satyagraha. It says that kandoth assault lead to guruvayoor satyagraha . Also what i suspect is that it is a similar effort done to prove that the heirarchy of thiyyas is different , the ezhava variation of thiyyas were present in both guruvayoor and kannur (where kandoth assault happended) ,may be they want to confuse the audience from thinking that they were also one of the mentioned people in that region who were excluded from temple , I think its a similar attempt to make a wrong relation and propoganda , i went through many reference and i cannot find this kandoth assualt there . I think it need to corrected(kandoth assualt as a highliting factor need to be removed and can be added in the see also section if needed ) What do u think? A similar behaviour i found in the article thandan , around 2 years back with the help of un-related references and by making wrong relations the vandals of belonging to these propoganda group entirely hijacked the page called Thandan and changed its entire purpose amd meaning. I personally feel that its a similar attempt to change the cause and purpose of this article too. Bilgiljilll (talk) 09:33, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bilgiljilll The section is definitely poorly formatted etc. The more I look into it, the more I think it is irrelevant in the article body. It was one of several temple entry flashpoints, so See also looks like the place for it. - Sitush (talk) 09:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Tyagi

Hi ! Sitush hope you are good , I was reading this article in which its written they claim Brahmin status but the source which is added in the citation is not saying this see . It just tells about the village & caste conditions. And in this line : As of a 1990 report by the Backward Classes Commission, Government of Haryana, they were mostly engaged in farming , there are two citations 1 & 2. Now the first one is Report of the Backward Classes Commission, 1990, Government of Haryana which says on page no. 105 : " Historically Tyagis are Brahmins, but have now left priestly services and mostly are engaged in farming. services their representation is very less Educationally too they are backward." Another thing is they are included as Gaur/Tyagi category & on page no. 28 its is clearly written they are included in Brahmins. And the citation no. 2 does not mentions them ,there nothing in the result when you search for Tyagi. Similarly citation no. 9 mentions them as Brahmin see. Most of the sources included in this article tell acknowledge them as Brahmins but what is written in the article does not match with the given source. As the sources not the Raj Sources plus they comes from the Non Brahmin neutral authors & Govt of Haryana itself.

Now I have more sources for the above claims. K .S Singh in his book :Haryana clubs them with other Brahmins sub castes see , same thing he mentions in People of Indian : Haryana , see.

Some links to the news of Haryana in which Gaur Brahmin Sabha is honoring Gaur Brahmins including Tyagis as the are the same people : link to the news . Another in which Brahmins & Tyagis objects of giving quota to them as they are one people : link to the news. Admin editors who locked this article does not gone through the sources and they confused Tyagis with Bhumihars but they have no relation with them. And left the article with lock. I know the given sources are just snippets of the books but they can be used because none of them are RAJ sources & random blogs or articles. So , you must go through article and this article is vandalize in last 1-2 year before that its clearly written in this article they are Brahmins. And also the citation no. 10 also mentions them as Brahmins which is used in diet section. So , you must check all the sources & citations which is added in the article & what is written as none of thing is matched which is written in the given sources. Pitahma (talk) 06:32, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Pitahma Singh's Haryana isn't reliable because it mostly just reprinted Raj era stuff. The rest I will have to look at. - Sitush (talk) 06:46, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Pitahma As with you, I can only see snippets. I'm not sure what you're asking me to do here but I can't do much without a better view of the sources. Snippet views provide no context.

In particular, I don't know why you are referring to Bhumihars. I know that lot claim Brahmin status but few other Brahmins accept their claim ... but the Tyagi article doesn't seem to mention them. Admins don't protect articles if they are "involved", so it isn't likely that whoever protected that one made any judgement on its content - it will have been done as a neutral act due to a pattern of disruptive editing or something like that.

BTW, I see the Singh/Haryana cite isn't for the Haryana volume of the "states" series of People of India but rather for the "national" series. The national series was published by Oxford University Press & is reliable - it's the states series which we avoid. - Sitush (talk) 07:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I just refer Bhumihars as I saw some old discussion on talk page I thought , they are clubbed with Bhumihars so neglect that. Yeah I accept that the sources are snippets but they are with their page no. ( if you can explain that why we are not able to use snippet view source it will be good for me in future edits). Someone already asked for the your old edit & same thing was asked by another admin Abecedare i.e. this one. But another admin said that :

The main difference between the two versions is whether the Taga/Tyagi's were historically Brahmins. Based on Rath (2018), the change in caste name and varna claim of the Tyagi's took place during the British Raj, as part of a wider process seen among Hindu castes that saw them changing their name and varna affiliation in the Censuses. On that grounds I think the current version should be kept.

And another user Marvel200 who started this edit war just going by his feelings saying this :

Tyagi was never a class of Brahmins, they follow the process of sanskritization and start claiming Brahmin status. Some mischievous editors cites psuedo sources to vandal this wikipage. Tagas even not considered as Brahmins on the ground situation

And according to me both of them are just following their feelings not the sources. So by taking K.S Singh national series , your old edit will be better than the current version. And before edit this edit was also the stable edit. Pitahma (talk) 08:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Pitahma Neither I nor Chariotrider555 are administrators. Abecedare is and specifically says their protection measure was added due to edit warring.

I like my old version because I know it reflected the sources accurately. But that doesn't mean the current version is less accurate: I simply cannot see the sources sufficiently to comment.

As I said earlier here, snippet views lack context. Along with using search terms which might lead to confirmation bias (eg "tyagi gaur brahmin"), they're rife in caste articles and I know you have used them yourself. If you can't read at least the entire page, and the one before and after, then you don't have sufficient context in which to assess the aspect of the source which you wish to use. For example, you might see "Tyagi's are Brahmins" in your snippet but the very next words, which you can't see, could be "according to a few people".

Personally, I'm not really happy unless I can read at least the entire chapter. And I do. - Sitush (talk) 09:30, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining , I just want to know why snippets are not valid. I got my answer.

And for this : I know you have used them yourself. , mostly I search like this on internet if this is not the right way than how can we search for sources ? If in future I got complete page reference will edit a request on the page. Pitahma (talk) 09:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Pitahma In this case, search for "tyagi" or "taga" ... and spend time reading. There is no rush to improve articles. Good articles depend on good research. - Sitush (talk) 10:24, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of S. Raja Reddy for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article S. Raja Reddy is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/S. Raja Reddy until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Nagol0929 (talk) 11:56, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Rajput Mali moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Rajput Mali. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability and it has too many problems of language or grammar. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. UtherSRG (talk) 12:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Page chekavar

hi sitush , I was reading the page Chekavar , seems like it is clear misinformation or partial information . From the sources like the anthropology of cochin state . Chekavar are meant to refer ezhavas and thiyyas and belong to both malabar district as well as southern kerala . This is pure misinformation mentioned there that they only beling to malabar , also the thiyya variation is only applicable in the north kerala . What do u think ? Bilgiljilll (talk) 14:52, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

clearly cotracking according to me. Bilgiljilll (talk) 14:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Article Vandalization

Can you this check this article as most of the sources are unreliable. I already raise this issue with another editor by seeing his novice editor batch @/Satnam2408. Hemraj108 (talk) 15:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Mass moving of caste pages

Hi Sitush. Hope you're doing well. Could you take a look at this? RegentsPark (comment) 13:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Have a look

Please have a look at this article, and particularly these changes. The user seems to be a POV pusher [54]. Is "Infobox ethnic group" relevant in Gurjar article, and also the related "ethnic groups" parameter. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:26, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Also please see this, especially 'Indo-Aryan' → 'Aryan tribe' against norms. The sources do not seem to be of good quality [55][56], which were refbombed here and you have deleted most of them in the subsequent edits. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:00, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

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Long standing Vandalism - clean up needed

This article is vandalized by over time and clean up need. There are many vandalized edits by caste promo blocked accounts here Caste system in Kerala [57]. 68.33.4.126 (talk) 05:36, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

AGF

And you are aware of both wp:agf and wp:bliudegon, so do not accuse me of trying to provoke you, that might well be seen as a wp:pa. Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Slatersteven I'm pretty sure I have asked you before to stay away from here. Please do, unless you want to notify me formally. I prefer not to be baited. - Sitush (talk) 15:35, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Returning caste pov-pushers through sockpuppets

Various pages of Maratha history (including on families of Maratha caste like Dabhade Jagtap, Surgana Pawar, even Malusare and Angre) are being subjected to unsupervised defacement by politically-motivated Koli caste pov pusher going against established academic sources as well as recorded government statements.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2409:40D6:1013:A911:8000:0:0:0
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2409:40D0:B7:7B9D:8000:0:0:0

These are edits of the same nature as banned Koli User:Premachandaji and User:Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala. This is the same author who operates Kolistan blog (Premchand Mahaur) on behalf of Koli caste parties. A closer look reveals you were extensively involved in attempts to curb these activities. Requesting you to provide protection to the pages this IP is vandalizing especially because this subject diverts time and attention to other details. DeccanFlood (talk) 20:29, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Surgana State page need high level protection from DeccanFlood, he removing reliable sources and information from Surgana State, DeccanFlood is casteist and adding Maratha (caste) to all pages, administrators can see his edit history, DeccanFlood deserve to be blocked from edit and account creation for infinite time. He is doing editwar on Surgana State.

If you favour the DeccanFlood, there will be no history of Kolis of Wikipedia, Waiting for your response Sitush.2409:40D6:2A:66D1:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 02:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

History of Kolis does not require disruption of Maratha history with false claims made upon Maratha families. These royal families are even available for contact on social media and they do not have any association with Koli community. Keeping that argument aside, it is quite ironic for a Koli caste pov pusher to accuse others of casteist agendas. From the Kunbis of Maval to Angres, Kanks, Jagtaps, Pawars various other Maratha families have been falsely laid a claim over by Kolis like Premchand Mahaur (User:Premachandaji and User:Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala). DeccanFlood (talk) 06:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Caste POV

Hi Sitush, Hope you are doing well. I came upon these articles: Kaikalas and Sengunthar which appear to have been filled with royal mythos since the last time you cleaned them up. Do take a look when you have time.

Thanks Gotitbro (talk) 13:15, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Happy New Year

		Happy New Year!
		Wishing you and yours a Happy New Year, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free and may Janus light your way. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, thank you and my best wishes to you also! This reply is late, sorry, but at least still in 2024. - Sitush (talk) 14:55, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Baidya

Hey Sitush, I apologize for disturbing you. We have had disagreements regarding possible original research and the addition of certain content in the Baidya article. I have also initiated an RFC there. Thanks, — Satnam₂₄₀₈^(talk) 18:47, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Defunct political parties in Jharkhand

A tag has been placed on Category:Defunct political parties in Jharkhand indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:16, 12 February 2024 (UTC)