Talk:Women in Greece

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The article claims Athens to be unusual in its attitude towards women, which is neither sourced, nor found in the linked article on women's rights from which this page is copy+pasted. It also claims Greeks to inherit sexist attitudes relatively late in their history, which is not true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.129.94.13 (talk) 04:04, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, my name is Talia Fragner and I am a student from Colgate University. I will be working on edits in this article, more specifically in the sections regarding "Women in Ancient Greece." I will be adding information regarding women rights to divorce and education.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tfragner.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:57, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 September 2019 and 15 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): EAB2000. Peer reviewers: McLeanB23.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:57, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Which is the main article?

In the Ancient section of this article, there is a main template linking to Women's rights#Greece. However, on that section there is another "main" linking back here. The two sections are comparable in length, but that seems to be mostly because one is copy-and-pasted from the other. It looks like Women in Greece is meant to be an expansion of Women's rights.

In any case, there shouldn't be these two "main"s linking back to each other. One should be changed to a see also. But I also don't think there should be two separate sections that say the same things word-for-word, as that's not really helping users of the encyclopedia to get a better understanding of the topic. One ought to be rewritten; if I had to choose, I'd shorten the Women's rights section as that article is already quite long.

Women in Greece could also be angled slightly differently, perhaps by adding a section about notable Ancient/Modern Greek women (from Sappho to modern political leaders [Greece is not mentioned at all on relevant pages]) and/or sections about any feminist movements or controversies in the region. Both pages are at least distinct from Women in Classical Athens, which is good. But overall, there still seems to be a lot of work to be done. -- 2ReinreB2 (talk) 19:19, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

The whole situation with these articles is a total mess, basically. We have Women in Classical Athens and Women in ancient Sparta on particular subsections of the ancient Greek world (and Women in ancient Rome rounds off the "Women in [part of the classical world]" articles). Then there's Women in Greece (this article), Women's rights#Greece (which talks solely about women in ancient Greece, and doesn't strictly confine itself to their legal rights), and Legal rights of women in history#Athenian law (which is short, and doesn't discuss women's rights anywhere outside of Athens). There may be more articles which are relevant which I don't know of.

If I had the time and energy to totally rework the whole thing, I would have articles on "Women in Greece" (a broad overview, with sections on e.g. history of women in Greece from antiquity to the present, economic position, cultural expectations, political position, healthcare...), "Women in Ancient Greece" (containing summaries of Women in Classical Athens and Women in ancient Sparta as well as evidence from areas where there isn't enough scholarship for a full article, e.g. Gortyn, discussion of change over time (archaic/classical/hellenistic/roman Greece), etc.), and then the "Women in Classical Athens" and "Women in Sparta" articles pretty much as they are shaping up at the moment. I don't know anything about women in modern Greece, though, so I'm concentrating atm on the Classical Athens and Sparta side of things (and more specialised articles about gender in ancient Greece, such as Against Neaera, Adultery in Classical Athens, etc.), and I might at some point write an article on Women in ancient Greece (at the moment, that redirects to Women in Greece#Women in Ancient Greece

Frankly, both Women's rights#Greece and Women in Greece#Women in Ancient Greece need rewriting, as what is there currently is a) badly written b) violating WP:NPOV/WP:DUE (e.g. the article doesn't make it clear that there is some debate among classicists as to whether Athenian women were considered citizens or not) and c) misses key parts of the scholarship on ancient women (e.g. does not discuss the implication of the fact that our sources are almost invariably men, does not discuss the fact that we know that women played more of an economic role than they were legally "allowed" to, does not discuss women's major role in religious life).

Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:16, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

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The Privileged Sex by Martin van Creveld

The Privileged Sex by Martin van Creveld says the following:

Women also left home, the literature shows, to visit their favorite soothsayer,[18] participate in some public ceremonies,[19] admire works of art on the Acropolis,[20] visit men in prison,[21] argue their case before arbitrators,[22] and attend courtrooms to rouse the sympathy of juries for their male relatives.[23] Women also listened to public speeches; one, Elphinike, reproached Pericles after the latter gave a speech in honor of the Athenians killed in the war against Samos.[24] Plato says that refined women preferred tragedy to comedy; from this, as from two other passages, it appears that women frequented the theater as well.[25] Not only did women participate in their relatives’ funerals, but without them those funerals could not be carried out at all. Women were active in religion.[26] They could become priestesses; indeed, some priesthoods were reserved exclusively for women. Some religious rites in which women participated were carried out daily, while others focused on festivals held on fixed dates. Some of the festivals were mixed, with others reserved for women. None could have taken place if women had been confined at home. And that is not to mention the feast of Dionysus, during which women not only left their homes but the city as well, making for the mountains instead.

So what should we do with this article? YukaSylvie (talk) 07:59, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

This article could stand plenty of improvement, but a self-published source by a non-expert which has attracted zero notice from actual experts in the field is not a useful starting point from which to do that. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 18:57, 25 November 2022 (UTC)