Talk:Ubiquinol

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Bias

Seems to be a very one sided article - consisting almost entirely of summaries of selected positive research papers. If I take this article at face value, Ubiquinol is practically a miracle substance. Given that Ubiquinol is widely sold as a "supplement", I believe the article displays unacceptable positive and commercial bias.

The body of the article does not attempt to survey knowledge of the substance - merely to report lots of "good" results. Each section is a summary of some research paper, always positive. Each summary is very detailed but gives little context or background and no contrary position.

While this is not my field, but in the absence of other replies, I'd be willing to prune the article right down. The article would be much improved by someone who knows something of human biochemistry hacking into it and providing context, background info/links from a neutral point of view. Drpixie (talk) 01:34, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this article is severely biased. It also relies very heavily on primary sources which isn't appropriate according to policy at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine). And it contains examples of original research, such as making connections between in vitro study and human health that are not warranted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.115.169.20 (talk) 11:23, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am removing the very detailed (and clearly contrary to Wikipedia policy) descriptions of original research, but initially leaving each subsection. When this stuff becomes better understood, and more widely accepted, it MIGHT be appropriate to add a LITTLE detail :) Drpixie (talk) 01:57, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To whoever put all that detail on original research into the article, I appreciate the work that must have gone into it. However wikipedia is a general, public encyclopedia - it isn't the right place for detailed summaries of research papers. It you are genuinely surveying the work on ubiquitol, perhaps a Surveys paper would be more appropriate. It you are acting for a supplements purveyor, then this is not the place for commercials. Drpixie (talk) 02:44, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong chemical formula

Seems like the formula is wrong. The brackets at the 10x Isoprene part must contain the first carbon atom as its drawn in the Ubiquinol article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.230.157.187 (talk) 12:43, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Regarding third edit: 13:12, 13 August 2010

Lambian - please reconsider one of the changes made on the second line of the third edit (13:12, 13August2010). Previously it said: The natural Ubiquinol form of Coenzyme Q10.... It was changed by you to read: The natural form of ubiquinol.... However, this would then imply that that there are other unnatural forms of ubiquinol, and it can only be one particular molecule. If you agree, please return the beginning of that line to: The natural Ubiquinol form of Coenzyme Q10... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Committed molecules (talk • contribs) 16:50, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've made the requested change (which you could have done yourself), but I'm afraid I don't get the import. Doesn't "The natural ubiquinol form of coenzyme Q10" equally suggest that there are other, unnatural ubiquinol forms of CoQ10?  --Lambiam 17:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest a wording that reinforces that "natural" in this context refers to the fact that ubiquinol (as opposed to -none) is the reduced form of Coenzyme Q10. I assume that word "natural" would refer to whichever form is more stable - i.e. not going to transform into the other form. But I don't know if there is a convention on this - either in chemistry, or for wikipedia. The only other example I know of is glutathione, which can exist in a reduced or oxidized form. I believe the reduced form is usually referred to as plain "glutathione (GSH) whereas the oxidized form is referred to by GSSG. That might indicate that the reduced form is considered the "natural" form, but I forget just enough high school chemistry to know if that is true in general..

Another note on terminology, is there a general term that encompases all the different "Co-Q[n]" compounds? I think it might have been Co-Q10 that I read the body having the ability to synthesize from two of the lower-order "Co-Q's". It was either CoQ10, or the MK-7 form of Vitamin K. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.232.121 (talk) 19:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Male infertility

That is way too much coverage for a study that hasn't even had time to get cold yet. Wikipedia is not a newspaper. It becomes noteworthy when it is repeated, particularly by a second and third laboratory. You can let people look at the reference and make their own determinations without placing the information, which is based solely on the abstract, at that, into the article.JSR (talk) 17:00, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of peer-reviewed clinical findings excess and inappropriate

Readers of the ubiquinol page - there have been an excess sniping of text here on the ubiquinol page. Perhaps the changes were done under the reasonable objective of removing biased text, however what occurred is wide swaths of text were removed, instead of engagement of each specific instance where suspected bias occurred. For instance, all text indicating the effects of ubiquinol on subjects in Class IV Congestive Heart Failure are completely removed. People would want to know whether or not ubiquinol has any effect on Ejection Fraction. Another examples is the paragraph on ubiquinol and statins. In these recent edits, all text related to statins is removed, doing a disservice to the large number of wiki readers that would be interested to learn about ubiquinol and statins. Scientists certainly think this topic is interesting, otherwise why do they keep researching this topic? Peer-reviewed Journals still think this topic is important, otherwise why even publish this data? These are but two examples of a dozen, or so, paragraphs that have been completely eradicated. I open this topic up for discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Committed molecules (talk • contribs) 19:14, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To Committed molecules - the substantial edits were done to remove the very detailed summaries of research papers. Multiple people had expressed various concerns about that part of the Ubiquitol article. Perhaps because each researcher wants their paper to be significant, research papers are generally phrased in a very positive light - the summaries given here generally reported a single positive result, and generally did not explain the significance of that result or of it was generally accepted.
Please be careful reporting scientific papers - research is not a one-way street - and especially so for the horribly complex fields of biomedicine. Over time, many people will look at each aspect of the field, and confirm or contradict each others' findings. Only after much research and many papers do people accept specific behaviours or effects. This means that one biomedicine paper, by itself, is not very useful - much better is references to commonly acceptable texts, perhaps medical textbooks, public guidance, or widely cited surveys.
Wiki policies require reliable sources ... "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources" and "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation". See Wikipedia:No_original_research "Ideal sources for such content includes literature reviews or systematic reviews published in reputable medical journals, academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant field and from a respected publisher, and medical guidelines or position statements from nationally or internationally recognized expert bodies. Primary sources should generally not be used for medical content." Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)
The substance of the article (the sections on Nutrient function summary, Energy production, Bioavailability, Content in foods, Molecular aspects) were left untouched apart from a typo or two. I think it would be valuable if those sections were expanded and explained things in a suitable fashion for the audience - remember wiki readers are the general public. I left the research skeleton is place in case someone wants to explain Ubiquitol with respect to each area. But please take care that such explanations are not just a summary of one (or many) research papers. In that context each explanation would focus on meaning, importance and reliability, and would be short, layman-friendly, and supported by secondary/tertiary sources (or at the least the balance of many independent primary sources). As you did, each would, of course, be supported by detailed references.
I certainly agree that effects of ubiquinol on Heart Failure, or interaction with statins, would be useful and interesting to the general public. But multiple readers/editors thought the extremely detailed paper summaries were out of place. Instead, carefully crafted explanations are more appropriate and will come across as less commercially motivated. A good explanation is a thing of joy but a difficult thing to produce - hence the notable status given to great articles.
Drpixie (talk) 11:32, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Drpixie's concerns and observations. The article needs more help from experienced editors. --Ronz (talk) 19:41, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Primary research on liver health

The editor Committed molecules has twice inserted this content, which is primary research and so shouldn't be used especially (as WP:MEDRS says) for biomedical content. I have reverted the additions accordingly. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 05:33, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(Add) Okay, so Committed molecules has edit-warred this content back in (adding it three times now) without even substantive discussion. I have issued a warning for edit-warring and will wait for input from other editors ... Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 06:55, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Entire "Effects and Research" section improperly sourced?

I haven't been through it with a fine-tooth comb yet, but at first glance this entire section seems to be built from primary sources, often with nothing-y summaries (the aftermath of some compromise between editors?) It's really poor. I propose everything based on primary sources is removed to bring the article into line with WP:MEDRS / WP:RS / WP:NOR, and am tagging the section. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 05:42, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I've previously removed lots of detail and tried to leave room for a constructive article, but there seems to be a desire out there, to list lots positive sounding statements supported only by primary references (some of low quality, none widely supported). It certainly looks like someone has a barrow to push, and that barrow is contrary to wiki policies re medicine. I support removing all that primary referenced material and references. Drpixie (talk) 03:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Characteristics

I'm opening this discussion to hopefully make some changes to the characteristics section, with the aim of improving the citations. If any editors have any opinions on how this could be achieved then please comment here. Currently only one reference is used in the entire section, therefore I feel it needs improving. Committed molecules (talk) 16:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have started discussion here but did not get any response so I am going to clearly describe the statement I want to add in this article. If no one responds, I will add it to the article per WP:BRD:

"Researchers invovled in a study subsequently performed detailed investigations with the ubiquinol form. An in vitro investigation utilizing a human monocyte cell line (THP-1) exposed to a stimulator of inflammation called lipopolysaccharide (LPS) showed ubiquinol inhibited the release of proinflammatory substances, specifically cytokine TNF-α pro-inflammatory chemokines RANTES (normal T-call expressed and secreted) and MIP1-α (macrophage inflammatory protein). The scientists observed ubiquinol to exert a stronger effect on these inflammation-mediators than ubiquinone."

Reference: Schemelzer, C, et al. In vitro effects of the reduced form of Coenzyme Q10 on secretion levels of TNF-alpha and chemokines in response to LPS in the human monocytic cell line THP-1. J Clin Biochem Nutr. 2009, 44: 62-66

  • Published on Pubmed at following link: [1] / also published on [2]
  • Pubmed ID: PMID 19177190
  • Also published by online by Journal of Clinical Biochemistry and Nutrition at [3]

I am open to User:Drpixie's advise of carefully crafting this statement if some one objects. --Committed molecules (talk) 09:01, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please use secondary sources. Alexbrn (talk) 08:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a template to the top of this page that has links to reviews in pubmed that you can use to expand the article, Committed molecules. Jytdog (talk) 12:30, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Journal of Clinical Biochemistry and Nutrition is a peer reviewed journal. Please see their acceptance criteria here. They have a 2.29 impact factor [4]. Other studies have also cited this fact, [5]. User:Alexbrn, tell me what specific objection you have with the sources I used? Please be clear so that I can get a better reference. Primary sources are good to cite certain claims per WP:MEDRS. Now if you can tell me per this policy what is the issue with my source and what is wrong with the content, I can make a correct. Do not revert just because you see a research paper. Please clarify.
I know that Citing research papers on wikipedia is allowed and I am doing it correctly. I know what sources are reliable for medical claims and what can be used on wikipedia. But in my response to revert by User:Alexbrn, I will suggest to use the following sources that are secondary (review or meta in nature) and in peer reviewed journals to expand the characteristics section for more content as well:
Extended content
I am going to use these to expand this section but before I do if you have an objection on a source, tell me now so that I can take this to WP:RSN. --Committed molecules (talk) 06:59, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sources can only be evaluated in respect of some specific content (and RS/N requires both to be supplied for any assessments) - so it's not possible to declare a source "reliable" (or not) in the abstract. Good encyclopedic content fairly summarizes what the best secondary sources say. Don't use primary sources for biomedical content: there are no circumstances that would justify such a use for this article's topic, for which secondary sources are abundant. Alexbrn (talk) 07:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That is fine. You have both the content and the source for the edit you reverted. Please tell me what the objection is in that source. What is violation and what makes it primary only (although it is peer reviewed). And if you still believe it is primary (based on a reason), still I think it is ok per MEDRS to use it for this sentence as it states "Peer-reviewed medical journals are a natural choice as a source for up-to-date medical information in Wikipedia articles.". The journal has good reputation for fact checking and accuracy. It is clear that "ubiquinol inhibited the release of proinflammatory substances". It also has a "stronger effect on these inflammation-mediators than ubiquinone". The statement backed up by this [6]. User:Alexbrn, Please clarify your objection for revert in respect to the source and content as you said. --Committed molecules (talk) 07:19, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really understand what you're asking. PMID 19177190 is a primary source. So is PMC 2613501. If you don't understand the difference between primary and secondary sources then you should rectify that before editing content on WP where that kind of understanding in a basic prerequisite. It is explained in WP:MEDRS. Alexbrn (talk) 07:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ok you did not understand what I said. It might not be "secondary" in the meta sense of a source but it is peer reviewed. I know what secondary sources are and I have posted the above source list so that you are clear that I have other options to improve content from those sources. Here the problem is I want to clarify why you are reverting this statement. I said even if you regard it primary, it is ok according to WP:MEDRS to use it for this statement. I quoted statements for primary use of Biomedical journals from MEDRS. I mean you should not jargon me that just because it is primary it is bad WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD (read this it is for regulars like you to understand "they can be authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, expert-approved, subject to editorial control and published by a reputable publisher"). So please answer my question with respect to the subject. Do you think ubiquinol does not inhibit the release of proinflammatory substances? --Committed molecules (talk) 07:41, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Regard it as primary"? It is definitively primary, no ifs and no buts. Being peer-reviewed has nothing to do with that. Do not use primary sources for biomedical information: that is the "prime directive" of WP:MEDRS and is only broken in ultra-rare circumstances (which do not apply here). Alexbrn (talk) 07:50, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am not using a primary source to contradict present content("Individual primary sources should not be cited or juxtaposed so as to "debunk", contradict, or counter the conclusions of reliable secondary sources"). It is not contradicting with MEDRS. I am only using a research to explain characteristics and it is not a bad thing because it is reliable information. --Committed molecules (talk) 07:56, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The point is, it is not (known to be) reliable: we need secondary sources to make that determination. Anyway you're now arguing against or misunderstanding WP:MEDRS which I have tried to explain several times. I'll leave this to others to continue discussion. Alexbrn (talk) 08:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Committed molecules, please read WP:MEDHOW. We start with independent reviews in the biomedical literature, statements by major medical/scientific bodies, and textbooks, read them, and summarize them. "Peer reviewed" does not mean secondary. Please do also read WP:MEDRS, especially the definitions section, and try to understand the heart of it. If you have questions about how we source health related content, please ask. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 13:05, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Therapeutic Uses of Ubiquinol

I have started this new section in the article. I took some time to research sources that were not only published by reputable publishers but also secondary sources based on a wide range of primary research and expert review. This content is different from previous but I still hope there will not be unnecessary objections now. If there's an issue, please discuss it here first instead of WP:OWN removal form article. I will like to avoid editwar.--Committed molecules (talk) 10:45, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

None of the sources meet WP:MEDRS you know. Some of them are of the crappiest (NaturalNews! Seriously?!) Alexbrn (talk) 10:48, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. Infact your blanket revert calling all sources poorly sourced is disruptive. Either you self revert and discuss source by source and present your concerns so that I can replace sources if need or else stop reverting out everything being added to this article. This source [7] for example is based on 28 references which is pretty much secondary. If you do not self revert or continue to dispute my edit, I am going to start a thread at WP:DRN so that some one fit for dealing with this can mediate. Now are you willing to discuss what you dispute or you are going to revert and go away like before? --Committed molecules (talk) 10:59, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Life Extension Magazine is not WP:MEDRS (and not WP:RS for much either). DRN would be a waste of time since it is evident you have not read (or maybe read but not understood or accepted) WP:MEDRS: there is little point discussing what is obvious. You need to follow WP:MEDRS for sourcing helath information. Alexbrn (talk) 11:04, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I will seek neutral editors then at reliable sources notice board [8]. I have started a thread there. If you are not willing to explain your own objections on each source then some one else will do it ("they are not per MEDRS" is not an objection. Tell why?). --Committed molecules (talk) 11:23, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Committed molecules, you need to read MEDRS and take that on board. If you don't understand something in MEDRS, please ask, but you are responsible for reading it and understanding it. Jytdog (talk) 12:46, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have read and understood MEDRS. What I am asking is that Alexburn may quote from MEDRS the points which my sources do not adhere to so that I can look for those who do not. Giving me a link to a full policy page and saying "follow" this is only helpful for my general editing not to specific sources. This is why I have taken dispute to WP:RSN so that some one can clear these things. Till then I am searching for more sources. --Committed molecules (talk) 12:21, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "I took some time to research sources ... based on a wide range of primary research and expert review." This is great! Please use these expert reviews published in scientific journals for referencing. So far you did not. My very best wishes (talk) 13:01, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The heart of MEDRS is that we source content about health two kinds of sources - high quality reviews published in the biomedical literature, or statements by major medical or scientific bodies. Those are what we call "secondary sources"; we call "primary sources", what you find in most of the biomedical literature - namely, reports of research. We don't source health content to primary sources. As a quick benchmark for the "high quality" part of that, with regard to review articles, we generally use Pubmed or MEDLINE indexing - if it is not indexed by one of those, it is not a high quality source. Jytdog (talk) 13:37, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I will not like to advertise or prefer reliable sources indexed by a select few websites over others except for credibility. That is why I do not think I should limit myself to those only indexed here as it may miss out on other reliable references. Wikipedia is not bound by pubmed policies.
All that aside, let's collaborate to get this article better. This is a review article from J Am Assoc Nurse Pract. that should be usable to establish that statins do lower CoQ10 plasma and that supplemental CoQ10 has a beneficent effect on statin-induced myopathy [9]. There is this second study plan from Beth Israel (highly reputable!) that plans to test ubiquinol in statin therapy [10]. I do not ask to add anything in the second reference as a fact but it can be used for context. I propose the following:
"Statin therapy has been shown to lower CoQ10 levels in the body with potentially adverse effects, particularly in the mitochondrial function of muscles in the vascular system (cited J Am Assoc Nurse Pract). Research is being conducted to try to determine the extent of the influence of statins and the potential role of ubiquinol therapy as a complementary corrective strategy." (cited [11]).
Claim is sourced by pubmed reference. The second reference is not making any health claim only a government website giving additional one line data on what is going on that readers will be interested in so my proposal will be compliant to WP:MEDRS. There is no denying that research is being carried out and it will be backed by second reference. It is WP:RS to confirm relevant research. --Committed molecules (talk) 20:04, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Committed molecules, please understand that lots of people arrive at Wikipedia being big "fans" of one thing or another. One reason the the community (not me, and not Alexbrn) developed all the policies and guidelines that it did, was to help resolve disputes when people who feel strongly arrive at Wikipedia pages; policies and guidelines are not potatoes that we just throw out the window. It is all the more important to keep to them when emotions are strong. Also, clinicaltrials.gov is not a useful source for Wikipedia. It just records that clinical trials happen. It does list the publication that came out of trial, which is this one: PMID 21171098. That publication is what we call a "primary source" in MEDRS, and we do not base content about health on primary sources. Jytdog (talk) 20:19, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that policies are important and I am spending my time complying to them as it is apparent by searching for pubmed and other reliable sources. You have not commented on first part of the sentence which is sourced by pubmed but I will wait for further comments on it before I add it to article. On second reference I am not making any health claim with that. As you said clinicaltrials.gov records trials that happen - it is reliable for that record - so I am just mentioning that trials are happening not what result they bear. It should be OK to say this in context. I am no fan of adding a government site to the article but it makes sense to cite it with a record when I say trials are taking place. --Committed molecules (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are 9 clinical trials in clinicaltrials.gov and 100 for coQ. It is UNDUE to pick one out of the 109 records to discuss in a QP article. One of the many reasons why we rely on review articles, is that we rely on experts in the field (the ones who write reviews) to tell us which studies mattered. We cannot make that judgement. Jytdog (talk) 20:30, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • review article: this is an OK source. (not great, but OK) the content you propose: "Statin therapy has been shown to lower CoQ10 levels in the body with potentially adverse effects, particularly in the mitochondrial function of muscles in the vascular system" is not accurate. CoQ's function in the body is in mitochondria. What these studies measured, is CoQ in serum (in blood). Also, please pay mind to the lack of correlation between serum levels and pathology -- what the review says is: "review of the literature affirmed that statins lower plasma CoQ10 levels. However, the correlation between lowered serum CoQ10 and myopathy is questionable because not every patient undergoing statin therapy experiences myopathy." You see? It also, in the conclusion, says "Patients experiencing statin-related myopathy might benefit from supplementation with CoQ10." (emphasis added) It also rightly notes that: "Some limitations of research included the small sample sizes, short length of studies using multiple interventions simultaneously, and issue that myalgia is a subjective symptom people experience differently. The short time frame of these studies limits how we can assess the effectiveness of CoQ10. The mean duration before the onset of symptoms associated with statin therapy is 6.3 months (Sathasivam & Lecky, 2008) and the longest study evaluated only 3 months’ time. In order to effectively assess the benefits of CoQ10, a long-term random controlled trial needs to be performed." All those limitations (including the serum measurement and its uncertain relationship with pathology) are really important - this is why the conclusion was "might benefit". Jytdog (talk) 20:38, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well it is It is okay to reflect "might" and "in mitochondria" in the proposal. Can you please suggest your own statement so that we can move to a compromise proposal based on our consensus? --Committed molecules (talk) 21:11, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Another suggestion: "Statin therapy has been shown to possibly lower CoQ10 levels in the body with potentially adverse effects in the mitochondrial function of muscles in the vascular system, and supplemental ubiquinol is being investigated as a therapy to address this." We use "possibly" or might if you want to rephrase it. Might or might not for conclusion is left upto reader who can read reference article for more data. And we only state it is being investigated. Please work with me to resolve this to what you think is more correct. --Committed molecules (talk) 21:31, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So this is ok not too good but ok. It has reliable pubmed reference and also I have corrected "might". I am going to add statement with [12] only. Do not remove it like before. If you want rephrase then talk about it. --Committed molecules (talk) 14:39, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So it's been about a year since I last looked at this article and we're still having fundamental problems with MEDRS sources and use? Why?
I removed the new content. If there are noteworthy results about it's use, then we'll add it. --Ronz (talk) 16:00, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ronz pubmed is WP:MEDRS source! Jytdog also said above it is OK source. I amended statement to match. Now what is your problem? Why have you removed reliably sourced content? Explain! --Committed molecules (talk) 17:48, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"If there are noteworthy results about it's use, then we'll add it" Wikipedia is not a venue for promotion nor is it a crystal ball. --Ronz (talk) 18:24, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"pubmed" is not a source; it is an index of sources. Jytdog (talk) 18:35, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I mean a pubmed indexed source is MEDRS. We had already agreed that it was OK so it is noteworthy if it is reliable. So Ronz I ask again, why do you call it crystal ball or promotion? Have you not seen that I have added acedemic data not commercial data. Why do you say it is not noteworthy when even pubmed has indexed it. --Committed molecules (talk) 18:51, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Because it is speculation on part of the authors, and something they need to do to get continued funding for the line of research. Further, including it in the article promotes a possible use for ubiquinol, a continuing problem with this article. --Ronz (talk) 19:26, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Expert review of literature and research is not called speculation. You can say all authors want funding for more research that is a fallacious argument. All drugs are supposed to have advantages / disadvantages and uses / characteristics section. I have not promoted any single use as this time I changed the data I was inserting and used pubmed indexed reference. This article is not neutral and you want to keep reverting without checking quality of edit I am making. Sorry but I think I will have to dispute this Ronz. --Committed molecules (talk) 07:50, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have started dispute [13]. Comment there. --Committed molecules (talk) 08:01, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was concerned that I overreacted, and I did. Reviewing it again, I still don't think it should be included until there are outcomes.
It most definitely is speculation until studies demonstrate the proposed interactions are indeed real. Then we need studies to demonstrate that the proposed solution is indeed effective and does not greatly reduce the number needed to harm. --Ronz (talk) 17:35, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objection to adding material citing this source, suitably caveated (i.e. much more than was the case in the attempted insertion). But, since the source's conclusions are a bit nothing-y, I'd have no objection to leaving it out either. Alexbrn (talk) 19:33, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Our mediator closed dispute because he wanted discussion from Ronz dispute. I know some of you thought this page was under promotional attack but it is not. I have improved my references on your request and I will improve even more when I add new data to this or other pages. So please WP:AGF for my work Ronz and do not overreact. It is not speculation when experts review wide range of literature. If it is presented in this reliable source then why censor it and not even mention. I do not mind rephrases but I contend that we should inform the readers that there is research on this use of ubiquinol. We should not say how much successful are results and we shall not advocate favor or against sides of this matter but we shall mention it. So I slightly disagree with Alexbrn that it is nothing-y. It gives a "lead" to reader. Two users Jytdog and Alexbrn think the source is good. We have consensus now but material is problem I think so here is one more rephrase:
"According to research, Statin therapy may lower CoQ10 levels in the body with potentially adverse effects in the mitochondrial function of muscles in the vascular system, and supplemental ubiquinol is being investigated as a therapy to address this."
Only facts that research is happening and if experts are concluding it may lower, then we have said same thing no opinion from me my friends. This short mention is well deserved. It can go into characteristics section. For other data I will need to do more research so let us only insert this. --Committed molecules (talk) 11:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest "As of 2014 the evidence of whether Coenzyme Q10 supplementation benefits people with statin-related myopathy is inconclusive". And I withdraw my tentative support for any reference here. If this content is included it should be at Coenzyme Q10#Statin myopathy (update: I've just done that). Alexbrn (talk) 12:05, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I noticed that it was already in that article, but the slight change was definitely needed appropriate given the reference.
@Committed molecules: As for bringing up AGF, don't. My comments are not based on any assumptions about any editors. I'm sorry to see that an editor decided to assume otherwise and then make requests based on such assumptions. --Ronz (talk) 15:37, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At no point did I assume bad faith. Editors who have conflicts of interest start editing all the time and are not aware of our COI guideline. Asking about COI on a user's talk page is not assuming bad faith. Committed molecules said he has none there, and I believe them. They are clearly an advocate for CoQ10 and ubiquinol, which presents a different set of issues. Just clarifying. Jytdog (talk) 15:52, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(Refactored) Sorry about that. It was in response to Committed molecules's WP:FOC problems, were the editor chose to bring up WP:AGF. --Ronz (talk) 15:58, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"As of 2014 the evidence of whether Coenzyme Q10 supplementation benefits people with statin-related myopathy is inconclusive" is in correct because expert review is not saying this you are saying this. Expert review says it might help. Your suggestion is WP:SYNTH. If you want to say it is inconclusive bring a reference that negates my reference! My dispute is not on Coenzyme page. I searched this reference to insert this here. Do not say it is helpful but if research is saying it might be useful, say it might be useful. Do not censor or remove only because I am asking to add it. Ok so mediator said he needs discussion between User:Jytdog and Ronz. Just clarifying too that I am not advocating use but inserting possible use mentioned in research that it is possible use. --Committed molecules (talk) 09:25, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ubiquinol audience should learn something about the connection of ubiquinol to statins (whether this is a possible use or under research). We have reliable reference to establish connection (I am not forcing you guys to say anything specific but we all know there is a connection. --Committed molecules (talk) 10:01, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is not true. we don't know there is a connection. there appears there might be a connection b/n statin induced myopathy and mitochondrial function (which is even then, not necessarily about CoQ), but we are far from knowing. see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4416140/. do not make things appear more certain than they are, please. Jytdog (talk) 10:12, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The possibility that there is a connection is verifiable WP:V. This possibility is worth mentioning and it will not be advocacy to say neutrally just like source says that it is possible, it is being researched etc etc. Is there any reason that it would be wrong to do this or is there any contradiction, Jytdog? Note my new suggestion is not to say "there is a connection" but it is fair to put it in open. Even your counter reference that cites 2 researches to say CoQ10 has not been substantiated for this does confirm that - "A number of complementary therapies, including ubiquinone (coenzyme Q10 [CoQ10]) and vitamin D supplementation, have been suggested to improve statin tolerability" - CoQ10 is a suggested method. Removing complete mention of such scientific attempts is not neutral and inserting them in this way will not promote their use. If it is a part of well known research that these are being attempted, it is ok to insert the data of attempts and possibility. Note I am not asking for confirming note in article until we have proof for it I am asking for inserting in same way that it is not certain but it is possible and attempted in research. Wikipedia is encyclopedia it should reflect everything that is part of secondary research. It is not medical text book that it should be limited to only the methods that are in practice encyclopedias also cover researches in progress and this research is in progress (oh, yes, so you can also say it is one of suggested researches in progress). --Committed molecules (talk) 10:17, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So we are talking about content for the coQ10 article now, right? Jytdog (talk) 10:31, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No we are on this talkpage. I am discussing Ubquinol from start. Alexbrn brought that on his own. My comment is general that all these methods including Statin therapy are in research. It can be mentioned in possible use or characteristic. I am ok with neutral sentence. --Committed molecules (talk) 10:37, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing in that source about ubiquinol, and that is the most recent and most authoritative source on statin-induced myopathy. Jytdog (talk) 10:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fresh suggestion

Hello User:Jytdog,

Sorry for replying late. I was in search of more sources and a better start. Let us move forward - I am suggesting new statement with new source (new authors), no real commercial value but scientifically relevant and of academic value. I have vetted the source much. See below suggestion:

CoQ10 has been linked to lower systolic blood pressure levels and since ubiquinol supplementation has the ability to deliver higher levels of CoQ10 to the heart, there is a rationale for using ubiquinol as a treatment of hypertension despite not being recognized as standard care.

-- Source: Cohen MM. Ubiquinol (reduced coenzyme Q10). A novel yet ubiquitous nutrient for heart disease. J Adv Nutr Hum Metab 2015; 2: e647. doi: 10.14800/janhm.627 [14]

This is Ubiquinol specific, WP:Reliable Source, WP:Verifiable and WP:Due. I will appreciate your comments. In all fairness, I also invite User:Ronz and User:Alexbrn to review before I add my suggestion to article.

Looking forward to constructive replies. --Committed molecules (talk) 15:49, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

that is content that promotes ubiquinol. We do not promote anything here. Please read WP:NOTADVOCACY and please stop proposing promotional content. Thanks.Jytdog (talk) 16:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jytdog I am not sure how you reached that conclusion. Can you explain how it promotes the substance? It appears you do not have issue with the source. Would you like to suggest a different phrasing of the content? --Committed molecules (talk) 16:17, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Journal is not MEDLINE index, publisher is on Beall's list of "Potential, possible, or probable predatory scholarly open-access publishers". I would avoid the source. Yobol (talk) 16:47, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Looking first at the article, it seems rather grandiose - not something I'd expect from a MEDRS source.
Looking at the publication, it's very new, so I'm didn't expect much could be found about it. Thankfully, Yobol knows where to look. --Ronz (talk) 16:58, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
saying "there is a rationale for using X as a treatment of Y despite not being recognized as standard care" is basically argument to use X to treat Y. We don't do that here. We say: "X is used to treat Y" or "there is insufficient evidence to say if X is useful to treat Y" - we don't tout WP:CRYSTALBALL possibilities - if we did, WP would be over run with bullshit, as most everything is potentially good for (and bad for) something. Jytdog (talk) 21:07, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for pointing out the newness of the journal. I had not noticed that and I withdraw my suggestion on those grounds. I think we should wait until the journal has had time to better establish itself and get indexed by MEDLINE and others and recieve impact ratings. Incidently, I dug a little more into the Beall list and the journal was not named specifically. The publisher was listed but with no indication on what grounds it was included. On the appeals page, Beall himself commented saying he "[does] not think this publisher meets the criteria for being a predatory publisher. To me, it looks like an honest new publisher." Apparently, he has not yet had time to update his list. --Committed molecules (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please look at this page - there are hundreds of things about which we could say "X might be useful for Y". We don't do that. Jytdog (talk) 21:31, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The "Appeals" comment was from January 2014, the list is updated in August 2015. The comment that it "looks honest" appears to be the old and outdated comment; the list is clearly the more recent, and therefore more reliable, of the two. Yobol (talk) 00:37, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Any use in humans?

I was prescribed co q 10 by my doctor because I am taking a statin. But I see no mention of any value of taking ubiquinone as a supplement. Is this an omission in this article? Why no mention? 98.2.238.89 (talk) 14:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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