Talk:Revival Lê dynasty

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Imperial standard of the Revival Lê Dynasty

The flag concerned.

I wonder, but why isn't this royal flag considered to be legitimate? I did some research into many of the removed so-called "Vietnamese dynastic flags" and almost all flags from Vietnamese and Chinese dynasties can be originally attributed to the Museum of Vietnamese Military History (as the military history of Vietnam is 90% Chinese invasions), later these flags and banners were "picked up" as "national flags" by a large number of people and were (unfortunately) added to many Wikipedia articles, these flags I term "Museum fantasies" and have been rightfully removed.

But this imperial standard is different, this file isn't attributed to the usual sources that can be traced to the Museum of Vietnamese Military History it is based on what the author titles the "Lam Kinh royal plate", if this is a contemporary source then this could confidently be assumed to be an imperial standard. --Donald Trung (talk) 06:50, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

@Donald Trung: this flag was invented a few months ago by user trương guy, a delusional ultranationalist. His goal is to remove any mention of China in articles about Vietnam, you could check his edit history. The other popular Lê dynasty flag (also fake), the yellow one with a white circle and a 黎 character in the middle, trương guy hates that one because of the Chinese character 黎 so he made this one.--KomradeRice (talk) 18:06, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

@KomradeRice:, thank you very much for bringing this to my attention, I checked their other uploads (something which I didn't bother doing before) and found out that they uploaded a number of egregious fictions which I all tagged on Wikimedia Commons as such. Regarding the other fantasy flags, I actually found their origin. Many are from the Military History Museum of Viet Nam. The thing about these flags are that often battle flags were used in the history of Chinese cultural countries, but only Japan adopted flags in the same manner as Europe as Japanese feudalism was nearly identical to Germanic feudalism and flags and coats of arms are all products of the intricate socio-political system (of course, despite the myth that China and Vietnam were "feudal" societies as proposed by Communist historians, likely based on Soviet historiography). The concept of "national flags" didn't even exist in the non-Japanese Chinese cultural countries until the late nineteenth (19th) century, but banners with Traditional Chinese characters on them were certainly attributed, for example I know for a fact that Quang Trung's (battle) flag was real but it was never "the national flag" of the Tây Sơn Dynasty. I would support adding actual imperial banners to these articles if we can find evidence for them, but I notice a trend in nationalists wanting to re-write history through Wikipedia which is very much unfortunate. Thank you for standing up against this person's irrational attacks on history.

Also kind of odd that this bloke wants to remove Chinese things from Vietnamese history articles as Vietnam is basically a Chinese province in both language and culture, but then again the tale of "the nation state" is that of uniqueness, I find Vietnamese and Korean history fascinating because it's essentially just "a mini-China" that developed differently, kind of how Europe was made up of hundreds of smaller copies of the Western Roman Empire mixed with the Frankish Empire (somewhat reductionist, but in principle it's accurate). Regarding the Lê fantasy flag, I think that it might have been a battle standard but I will need hard evidence before I will consider it anything other than fiction. --Donald Trung (talk) 19:15, 14 July 2021 (UTC)