Talk:Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima

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Former featured articleRaising the Flag on Iwo Jima is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 9, 2006.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 16, 2006Featured article candidatePromoted
August 12, 2012Featured article reviewDemoted
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on February 23, 2005, February 23, 2006, February 23, 2007, February 23, 2008, February 23, 2009, February 23, 2010, February 23, 2012, February 23, 2015, February 23, 2022, and February 23, 2023.
Current status: Former featured article

Photo Too Small

The original uploader of the photo of Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima (18:25, 2 April 2005 . . Dbenbenn) had permission from Associated Press to post the photo and posted a fine image at 1380×1111 resolution. The photo has now been replaced with an image with a resolution of only 417×336. That may have been adequate for an 800x600 monitor; but on a 1920x1200 monitor it is too small to appreciate any detail. If Wikipedia is going to have any lasting value, there need to be higher resolution photos available. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrJohn (talk • contribs) 04:01, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where is the info that AP said the image could be 1380×1111 resolution? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esemono (talk • contribs) 09:41, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The camera used

From what I understand, the Camera Joe Rosenthal used to take the picture currently resides at the George Eastman House. That might be something interesting to note, If it is in fact true, I would be willing to bet the GEH would be more than happy to supply a photograph of said camera. 70.101.92.136 06:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"possibly the most reproduced photograph of all time"

I realise this is sourced, but the source does only say "possibly". File:Guevarakorda3.jpg ? Stu ’Bout ye! 08:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ultimately came to be regarded as one of the most significant and recognizable images in history
Frankly I couldn't believe this article made it to featured status with such weasel words in the first paragraph! Personally I've never even seen the photo before so it can't be that significant and recognisable. Better words would be "has been called" which is what the sourced AP article said. Came to be regarded implies a regard by unspecified persons, presumably the world community in general. Has been called means that one or more individuals have called it that. Ben Arnold 10:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you have never seen this image before then you need to crawl out of whatever rock you have been hiding under. --Looper5920 11:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As a non-American, I also never ever saw this photograph before. At best, it reminds me of the painting La Liberté guidant le peuple. However, I did see Soviet flag over the Reichstag before. There are definately many more (globally) significant and (globally) recognizable pictures in existance, e.g. The Blue Marble (according to Wikipedia, one of the most widely distributed photographic images in existence). I would presume these really iconic images get reproduced more widely and more often. — Adhemar 11:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
[1], [2], [3], [4]. Here are 4 more quick references for the above claim I pulled from Google. I left out the ones I thought may be construed as biased but AP, Wash Post, NY Times and A&E TV are not the worst of sources. Bottomeline is that it is a valid claim. Not only has it been a Pulitzer prize winner, stamp, war bond poster and yes propoganda but it has been so for over 60 years. Hope this helps.--Looper5920 11:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It does to me. Thanks. (From time to time, I seem to not know something that is common knowledge in a large part of the world. Then again, that's why we have Wikipedia.) — Adhemar 13:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC) [P.S. Of these sources, AP might be biased, as they are copyright holder. But I disgress][reply]
I changed my mind again: It no longer does to me. As rightly pointed out below, all of those sources are American. And apparently I'm not the only person not to know the picture. — Adhemar 10:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to your user page, you have a specific interest in U.S. Military History, so you are highly likely to know about photos that have significance in U.S. military. If the photo has significance internationally, why do all the sources you cite hail from the United States? Anyway, my main point is that the the phrase has come to be regarded is a weasel phrase (see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words). Regardless of the truth of the comment, the way it is presented gives the impression of bias. (By the way, I do think it's a good photo!) Ben Arnold 17:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Weasel words shouldn´t be allowed on a "featured" article. I have heard in a lot of places than Korda´s "Che Guevara" picture "ultimately came to be regarded as one of the most significant and recognizable images in history", outside the USA. So? without reliable citations, those phrases are completely irrelevant.

I had to Google to find the photo you're talking about, and yes I've seen that one a billion times. Of course, this isn't about what you or I or anyone else finds familiar, it's about attributing opinions to sources and not to unnamed protagonists hiding behind the passive voice. Ben Arnold 17:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. To me, Che Guevara is far more iconic than Raising the Flag. A bit higher Ben Arnold is also right: all cited sources are American based, the statement might be very US-centric. Che Guevara and The Blue Marble are very know, also outside South and North America respectively, Raising the Flag probably far less so. — Adhemar 07:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Weasel words are "some people say" or "it has been claimed" - claims without clear attribution. Providing a source (in this case, the Associated Press), it is, by definition, not weasel words. The reason it says "possibly" is because there's nobody keeping clear tabs on just how many copies of all images get produced - so any claim along these lines is inherently a best guess. Raul654 17:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The most significant and recognizable images in history, and possibly the most reproduced photograph of all time may be true for the US but the other backward countries may not recognize inherent greatness of the photo. Picking a Czech language book "Japanese War 1931 - 1945" by Aleš Skřivan, 1997, ISBN 80-85983-28-1, there's picture of landing on Iwo Jima but not the flag (it mentions the photo, though). Obviously the book must be lacking ignoring such a monument of photography for a photo of actual war action.
Pavel Vozenilek 21:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Raul. Yes, a source is provided, but the words are weaselly because they don't attribute the claim to the source. I'd be looking to replace:
ultimately came to be regarded as one of the most significant and recognizable images in history, and possibly the most reproduced photograph of all time.[1]
...with...
has been claimed as the most memorable photograph of World War II and possibly the most widely reproduced photograph of all time.[1]Ben Arnold 09:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
(Belated entry) The following is extracted from a BBC article: The photograph of the US Marines raising the flag over Mount Suribachi was taken by Associated Press photographer Joe Rosenthal and is one of the most famous images of the war. It won the Pulitzer Prize in 1945.[5] SoLando (Talk) 11:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In his talk at the TED conference 2006, Larry Brilliant claims that the most reproduced photograph shows a child suffering from smallpox. During the smallpox eradication program, 150,000 people performed door to door searches for the disease. They distributed two billion copies of this picture to aid recognition of smallpox. He explicitly states that its circulation exceeds that of The Blue Marble. Video source at [6], 05:32 - 06:07. --Akatose 23:35, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

"most well recognized photo of World War II" ?! maybe if you're american. I'd seen the photo before, but thought it was something to do with Vietnam...(sorry) to me, a recognisable photo would be the Dunkirk evacuations or that one where the Queen Mum visits the blitzed East End. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeygirl (talk • contribs) 08:53, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Missing/replaced frames on video?

Stepping through the video of the flag raising, I notice a skipped sequence right about the point where the video most closely resembles Rosenthal's image, which has been replaced by earlier frames. The flagpole lurches at first, than repeats part of its motion over a half second or so. It's as if the very image that most resembles Rosenthal's has been edited out and then replaced with others to make the break in the sequence less noticeable. (There are also several frame duplications and skips throughout the sequence which I presume may have something to do with mapping frame rate differences between film and ogg format, but that's not what I am talking about.). Any known explanations? Steipe 17:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about the video linked to from this site as I've never watched it, since I have all of Genaust's footage in original color, and like you have "stepped" through it frame-by-frame. There is only one edit in the original film, and that is done "in camera." Genaust first filmed the guys holding the pole, awaiting Schrier's command to raise it (and lower the other). During this sequence Harold Schultz ambles over from off frame and is the last of the six to join the group. After Schultz is in place, the film "jumps" (Genaust stopped filming, and moved to a slightly more "head on" position beside Rosenthal) and the next frame shows the guys starting to push the pole upward. There is no edit in the original film as the flag is raised and the guys steady the pole. Genaust was afraid of running out of film and stopped filming until the flag was really ready to be raised, plus he moved to a better filming angle. Sir Rhosis 23:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

LST-758 or LST-779

The claim that LST-758 supplied the flag for the second raising should be removed as the source Robert L. Resnick, "USCG Veteran Provided Stars and Stripes for U.S. Marines" has major dispcrencies in his story:

  1. While it is confirmed Rene Gagnon took the second flag to the top of the volcano. It is never mentioned that he also dragged a, "21-foot galvanized steel steamfitter’s pipe. It weighed more than 150 pounds, Resnick said. Gagnon slung it over his left shoulder, tucked Resnick’s flag under his right arm, and headed up the volcano as Resnick stood on the deck watching history unfold." [7]
  2. Resnick claims that it only took 20min to get from his ship, LST-758, to the top of the volcano, "Renee Gagnon struggled mightily but the sand at the base of the volcano was too soft and Gagnon barely made any headway,” notes Resnick. “Then he dropped the pole and pulled it by its nose. Evidently, he called up to the summit and two other Marines shouldered the pipe and Gagnon carried the flag the rest of the way up."[8]
  3. As shown by almost all sources only the soldiers doing the actual flag raising noticing the second raising yet Resnick claims that everyone cheered, "As LST-758 began leaving the beach in reverse, Resnick heard, “a tremendous and sudden ovation from every man on the beach.” “There was a whooping and hollering — a tremendous cheer as the flag went up,” said Resnick. “Every ship tooted its horn,” he said. “The memory is very clear and compounded by great sentiment and great apprehension as I recall the sites of death,” said Resnick.[9] The great cheer that everyone talks about was when the FIRST raising took place which didn't involve Gagnon or Ira who weren't on top of Suburachi at the time.
Maybe a marine got a flag from Resnick on ship LST-758 but it wasn't Rene or Ira who carried it up and it wasn't the second flag that Joe Rosenthal captured in his famous picture. It wasn't the first flag either as according to lieutenant Greeley Wells the first the 54-by-28 inch (137-by-71 cm) American flag was from their transport ship, the USS Missoula (APA-211).
All references to the flag being from LST-758 should be removed from the article and only refernces from Marine history should be used. -- RabitsVinge 07:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The US Coast guard historian's office counts it as part of their official history, so it merits a mention in this article. Raul654 12:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Even if that account is wrong? -- RabitsVinge 22:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is the Coast Guard reference for Coast Guard Quartermaster Robert Resnick from the USS Duval County (LST-758) since the other references aren't workable. [10] The DOD site also did Resnick's story with two photos of him on May 26, 2004. Resnick claims he attended a 5th Marine Division convention, he's a honorary member of the 5th Marine Division (member in 2001), and that he got a call from a former corpsman on Iwo Jima who told him he saw the flag/pipe.
Former Marine Lt. George Greeley Wells, 2/28 Marines adjutant in charge of both of the two American flags raised on 2/23/45, wrote in the NY Times in 1991: that Lt. Col. Johnson ordered him (Wells) to get another larger flag, he (Wells) sent Rene Gagnon to get a flag off a ship off shore, Gagnon returned and gave it to him (Wells), this larger flag was sent up Mt. Suribachi by Gagnon with a message for Schrier to raise the larger flag and send the other flag down with Gagnon, and Wells received Schrier's flag from Gagnon.YahwehSaves (talk) 04:24, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Request for information or link to information

Is there any information regarding the children of the flag raisers? I've done some searching but have been unable to turn up any results Geogo3r (talk) 23:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The three who died on Iwo Jima had no children. I don't believe Ira Hayes had any either. Rene Gagnon had at least one son (Rene Gagnon Jr.). [11]. John Bradley had 8 children. One of them is James Bradley, who wrote the book "Flags of Our Fathers". Raul654 (talk) 23:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the quick response Raul! Geogo3r (talk) 23:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first flag raised on Japanese soil during WW2?

I have a copy of a photograph of an American flag raised on Iwo Jima early on the morning of D-day, February 19th, 1945. Could it be a photograph of the first American flag raised on Japanese soil. (JCH1952 (talk) 03:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC))[reply]

You should post it on this site or if you want you can email it to me and I can do it for you! -- Esemono (talk) 07:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Something is wrong with Rene Gagnon's bio

The paragraph on Rene Gangon's post-war experiences contains an inaccuracy about either his age at death or the length of his marriage. The article states that he died "in 1979 at 54" and that he had a "47-year marriage", meaning he would have been 7 years old when married. My guess is that his marriage duration is wrong, but I could not find a source stating how long he was married.Algaedna (talk) 18:50, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • That bit in the Flag article you reverted was about John Bradley's marriage, not Gagnon's. I reverted it back. Sir Rhosis (talk) 19:47, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:USMC War Memorial Night.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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File:Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima.png Nominated for Deletion

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Sentence structure

Would some literate person with an interest in this topic please fix this sentence?

Anti-war activists in the 1960s altered the flag to bear a peace symbol, as well as several anti-establishment artworks.[52]
Amandajm (talk) 02:31, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FA fixes

There are several issues here in regards to maintaining FA standards, for example: some refs are missing parameters, one is Angelfire, and there are 9 citation needed tags.???PumpkinSky talk 21:33, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not completely sure it's up to 2012 FA standards. The prose ain't much to write home about. This article needs a thorough, picky, going over. It was probably in a better state on TFA day.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:23, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So /2006/. I looked at this a while ago and was shocked. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alan Wood

Alan Wood, who supplied the flag raised in the iconic photo, has died http://news.yahoo.com/wwii-vet-provided-flag-iwo-jima-died-033413807.html Irish Melkite (talk) 03:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See LST-758 (Resnick) or LST-779 (Wood) section above in regard to Lt George Greeley Well's statement in NY Times 1991 about the 2nd flag in the famous photograph (the flag taken up Suribachi by Gagnon according to Wells who was the person in charge of it). From what I read about Wood, he did not recognize Rene Gagnon as the Marine whom he gave a flag to. YahwehSaves (talk) 22:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

American Indian Marine Was Part of Iwo Jima, But Kept Out of Spotlight

Two American Indians played big parts in both flag-raisings on Iwo Jima’s Mount Suribachi. Louis Charles Charlo, from the Bitterroot Salish Tribe of Montana, helped with the first flag. Ira Hayes, a Pima from Arizona, is in the famous photograph taken later that same day of another flag being raised. Why Ira Hayes is an internationally known hero and Louis Charlo has been lost to history Read more at http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/11/07/american-indian-marine-was-part-iwo-jima-kept-out-spotlight-60406 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.183.119.36 (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The "Indian Country" reference (2011) above, which seems to be about getting a "Medal of Honor" for Charlo ("helped with the first flag"), leaves out Charlo was in F Company not E Company (lLt Schrier's patrol that went up Suribachi). So, there wouldn't be any photos of Charlo and the 1st flag on Suribachi. The confusion is over the 4-man, F Company scout patrol (Charlo) that made it up Suribachi, and the 40-man, E Company combat patrol with the flag carried by Lt. Schrier (flag-raiser) that made it up Mt Suribachi. Charlo was part of Iwo Jima (Mt. Suribachi) as the article says, but wasn't part of the first flag-raising.
The reference also says that Hayes was ordered to leave his buddies in E Company and return to the States to be hero of Iwo Jima for a bond tour. Then the reference blames Haye's drinking ("heavy") problem over the pressures of him not wanting to be on the bond tour, when in fact Hayes was with his buddies (Strank, Block, and Sousley) from his rifle squad when they died on Iwo Jima, Hayes and E Company left Iwo Jima together on 3/26/45, and Hayes supposedly was proud to be in charge of the second flag raised on Mt. Suribachi that went with the three flag-raisers during the bond tour. Charlo's photo (recon patrol on Suribachi) was on an entire front cover of Yank Magazine in 1945. According to the reference Charlo, KIA, received a Bronze Star Medal that was upgraded to a Silver Star Medal in 2009 for trying to save a wounded Marine (both KIA). YahwehSaves (talk) 03:08, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct it was to help him with medals, but the fact remains he was there for both flag raisings as the article points out, Hayes was used in the photo for the second shot. He deserves credit for what he did. Soldiers that were at the raising of the flag state that Charlo was there. "Louis Charles Charlo, from the Bitterroot Salish Tribe of Montana, helped with the first flag. Ira Hayes, a Pima from Arizona, is in the famous photograph taken later that same day of another flag being raised. " you can also contact my tribe for more information if needed. CSKT.org http://www.buffalopost.net/?tag=louis-charlo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.62.205.109 (talk) 13:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Seems you and your tribe are competing with Ira Hayes (your tribe and his tribe?) over flags. Do you and your tribe know 1Lt Schrier received a Navy Cross citation which says, "he and Sgt Thomas, his platoon sergeant", raised the first flag? Others from E Company, Third Platoon, that personally helped secure the first flagstaff in the loose sand and wind, are the ones identified in SSgt. Lowery's 1st flag photos (no Charlo). The confusion is over F Company (Charlo, and any others) being up on Mt Suribachi while the first and second flag was being raised and or flown. Fact or truth is, F Company (Charlo), had nothing directly to do with the two pipes with attached flags being raised on Mt Suribachi by members of Company E (except for Jacobs, F Company radioman who was assigned to Company E). Charlo (and the other recon team members) wasn't assigned to Company E, and didn't "hoist" or help with the 1st flag as rumored. [12].
Many Marines and corpsmen were up on Mt Suribachi doing their jobs and didn't get decorated with medals for doing their jobs as the two flags were raised and flew on Mt Suribachi, so why would Charlo get a medal because, "he was there"? Even the Army Pfc from Yank magazine was up on Mt. Suribachi while both flags were being flown. The Marine litter bearers and navy medical corpsmen getting killed out in the open while under fire aiding and or helping the wounded, or while carrying wounded Marines to cover on their backs standing up or crawling, usually get Bronze Stars and Silver Stars like Charlo, but not Medals of Honor, so why would Charlo get a Medal of Honor? Why isn't Charlo's Bronze Star Medal citation (and Silver Star citation) posted anywhere which probably says he was in F Company, not E Company, and shows exactly what he did?
Sgt Watson who led the F Company 4-man recon patrol (Charlo) up and down Mt Suribachi may have received a commendation or medal for taking the patrol up, but not for just being there on Mt. Suribachi while the flags were raised and flew. Watson was Charlo's squad leader and where Watson was, Charlo was (in same F Company platoon), on Mt. Suribachi, and they wouldn't be with E Company members (3rd and 2nd platoons) who raised the flags. Why would Lt Schrier need Charlo to raise or help with his flag(s)? Seems there were other recon patrols (and another Indians?) from D and F Company that were ordered up Mt Suribachi besides Watson's patrol. The Sgt. who led the D Company recon patrol up got a Silver Star. Do you and your tribe know that Schrier's radioman during the flag raising, Raymond Jacobs (Charlo wasn't the radioman), who knew Charlo (BAR man) personally in F Company, stated he didn't see Charlo on Mt. Suribachi, that Charlo wasn't a flag raiser, and that Charlo didn't help E Company raise (or secure) the flag on Mt. Suribachi. [13] YahwehSaves (talk) 22:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We aren't competing with anyone. What I believe is; people look at us all as "American Indians" when in fact we are different. We speak completely different dialects have different customs. Like French, English, Irish, German ect. http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com is independent not affiliated with either tribe. And to make sure we are absolutely clear I have the utmost respect for Ira! And to be extra clear this isn't about medals.. History should be told correctly..

Here's something from http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/iwoflag.htm

At 8 a.m. on February 23, a patrol of 40 men from 3rd Platoon, E Company, 2nd Battalion, 28th Marines, led by 1LT Lieutenant Harold G. Schrier, assembled at the base of Mount Suribachi. The platoon's mission was to take the crater of Suribachi's peak and raise the U.S. flag. As a member of the first combat patrol to scale Mount Suribachi, Cpl Lindberg took his 72-pound flamethrower and started the tortuous climb up the rough terrain to the top.

As they reached the top, the patrol members took positions around the crater watching for pockets of enemy resistance as other members of the patrol looked for something on which to raise the flag. Present at the crest were six Marines of a 40-man patrol. They were 1LT Lieutenant Schrier, Sergeant Thomas, Sergeant Hansen, Private First Class Charlo, Private First Class Michels, and Corporal Charles W. Lindberg.

At approximately 10:20 a.m., the flag was hoisted on a steel pipe above the island. The sight of the small American flag flying from atop Mount Suribachi thrilled men all over the island. And for the first time during WWII, an American flag was flying above what was considered traditional Japanese territory. This symbol of victory sent a wave of strength to the battle-weary fighting men below, and st (ruck a further mental blow against the island's defenders.

The reference is a business site that incorrectly says Lindberg was "shot through the stomach" (would have died). In 2010, your Tribe site incorrectly made Charlo the "U.S. Marine Radioman with E Company" (instead of Jacobs who died in 2008) and incorrectly wrote on your Veterans Monument for Charlo that he was "Radioman" and "he was one of four Marines who participated in the first raising of the US flag atop Mount Suribachi". [14] YahwehSaves (talk) 21:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Book used as a source

There is a book used as a source here called "On the Origin of Spin: (Or how Hollywood, the Ad Men and the World Wide Web became the Fifth Estate and created our images of power)" Paperback – June 29, 2013. It seems to me this book has lifted multiple paragraphs from this wikipedia article. If so, it would be useless as an independent source. You can read the relevant section of the book here: https://books.google.com/books?id=7rNu06-I6IsC&pg=PA9#v=onepage&q&f=false


Here is a version of the wikipedia page from March 2013 (before the publication of the book), so you can see which one came first https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima&oldid=545010729 Kaltenmeyer (talk) 23:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Kaltenmeyer Excellent pick-up. Both citations in the article were secondary sources, and the book may have used the original quote without properly referencing it. The original is from an article written by Rosenthal himself in Colliers Magazine from 1955 (hence the mention that he said it 10 years after the date he took the photo). I deleted the 2 secondary sources and changed it to the archived reference I already used in the article. His quote is on page 3 of the Colliers article. Thanks for noticing this. NotaBene 鹰百利 Talk 22:26, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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