Talk:Porsche 917

Comment

I deleted my previous comment because I misread the article and had mentally transposed 917 and 512M

Racing car template

I've had a stab at a template for racing cars (see template:Racing car) to summarise the usual data. I've used the F1 templates as a starting point and applied it to the Brabham BT46 article. If anyone's got an interest in this, please have a look at the template and modify or suggest changes as appropriate. After a few people have had a go at it and we have something we're happy with we could start to use it more widely. Note that it's not meant to be specific to F1, by the way. Cheers. 4u1e 10:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Would like more info on video game appearances

I posted the initial listing of Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed, but would love to find other games where I can drive this car.

Rag-time4 18:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Mythic stories that need substantiating

There's a claim of a V-16 917 lacking a citation under the cam-am part. This is verified in "The Unfair Advantage" by Mark Donohue. I don't have it with me so I can't be technical but he mentions driving it briefly and that he could hear one end of the engine start before the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.152.146.100 (talk) 16:35, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

There are a couple of things I've heard about the 917's racing history that I think are worth repeating but I can't find references for them.

One I read years ago in Motorsport magazine about the 917 at Monza. Apparently the torque from the motor was so large that it could temporarily warp the frame and make driving the car ina straight line difficult. I might have parts of this confused with a story about Monza also being the place where the width of rear slicks hit their natural limit whereby rubber movement through the parabolica (in e.g. Formula 1 cars) resulted in the tires having a slightly conical shape by the end of the corner also causing crabbing down the main straight.

John Allen's 'Porsche 917 Superprofile' mentions that chassis flexing was originally thought to be the cause of the car's poor handling, but tests disproved this theory. Halmyre 07:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

A Nigel Roebuck piece which appeared aeons ago on Autosport's web site quoted Frank Gardner as saying that "this thing flexed so much that the actual position of the gearchange used to alter. You'd reach out for where the lever had been last time you used it, and it wasn't there! It had moved." Said article is reproduced at http://www.legslarry.org.uk/917.html, and also contains a graphic description of the 1970 BOAC 1000, a.k.a "The Day They Forgot To Tell Pedro It Was Raining", as well as some lovely Frank Gardnerisms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Larrington (talk • contribs) 13:39, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The other rumour (on the www.project917.com page) is that the aluminium (and prsumably magnesium) frames were prone to cracking and that to calm driver fears Porsche devised a method where the entire frame was pressurized. With a tire pressure gauge they would check for leaks, indicating the frame had cracked.

If either of these can be substantiated they're worth putting on the page.

It's true that the frame could be pressurized. The frame was prone cracking. Pressurizing the the frame and checking for leak with a tire pressure gauge was a test procedure. But Gérard Larrousse reported in Automobile Historique that the Martini racing 917s had a presure gauge on the dashboard to check for leaks during the race. I have to check for complete reference. Ericd 17:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Paul Frere's 'Porsche Racing Cars of the 70s' and John Allan's 'Superprofile' both mention the pressurised frame, but neither mentions a dash-mounted pressure gauge, and none of the cockpit shots show such a gauge. There is a famous Frank Gardner story relating to his and David Piper's shared drive at the 1969 Nurburgring 1000km. One of the Porsche engineers showed Frank a pressure gauge and told him that if it went to zero he was to drive back to the pits 'with care'. Frank's response was that if it happened he wasn't driving anywhere 'with care'; he was going to park the bastard, walk back to the pits and collect his wages. Halmyre 07:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've read the article again. In fact it's in "Rétroviseur" and not in "Automobile Historique" in fact what Larrouse said is unclear. I'm not sure there was a gauge on the dash. Ericd 09:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

At http://www.1-18scalecars.com/0Porsche_917K_(1970_LeMans_winner).htm they state there was a pressure gauge on the dash board. Ericd 09:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Not really reference-grade material, unless they can provide some pictures or other information they might have used for their model. Flanker235 (talk) 06:12, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Stability Solution

The article claims that the stability problem was solved by John Horsmann, but The Making of a Winner by Larry Pihera, J.B. Lippincott Co. '72 claims that it was David Yorke. Yorke noticed that there weren't any splattered bugs on the car's tail and thus an indication of an absence of downforce (p 113). As the article doesn't provide a cite for the Horsmann claim, does anyone have evidence that is was Horsmann, not Yorke? Tac27 (talk) 21:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Rather than rely on a minor book by an author that was not present at the event, a more definitive answer is provided by Brian Redman on page 138 of this autobiography, Daring Drivers, Deadly Tracks Evro Publishing 2016, where he clearly states that John Horsmann noticed the differences in bug splatter and then worked with the mechanics to craft the new rear section. While both Horsmann and Redman mention that Yorke was present, neither mention him in this context. Bill321 (talk) 04:13, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Why should being there make any difference? I'm not wishing to put down Brian Redman's comments but If the authors of that book have done their research correctly, they may have very good reasons for saying what they did. Do we know that Redman was there when it happened? Did the other authors interview several people - maybe even including Redman - before saying what they did because that was what most people said? Flanker235 (talk) 14:02, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Subjective Language

I removed the "very nice" description of the Laser kit car as it is entirely subjective in nature. Cite a source for it being "very nice" or leave it out, please.

139.60.210.5 (talk) 14:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

917 Top Speeds

There is a passage on this page which needs a couple of minor corrections. Firstly it states that the 917 was capable of "a top speed of over 240 mph (390 km/h) ."

It should be strongly emphasised that this speed was only ever achieved once in 1971 during a special testing weekend in April (where they introduced the new Langheck and the "Pink Pig") and not during practice or race conditions. It should also be pointed out that only the 917 LH was capable of this speed and probably not in race trim. The implied possibility of being "over 240 mph" is not verifiable and should be removed. Porsche's own computer predicted that the car would reach 239 mph; presumably in still air at STP.

Secondly, it states that the 917 LH displayed in the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart "also set the highest speed ever recorded on the Mulsanne Straight: 384 km/h (240 mph)."

This is true for the era but is no longer the case. Several cars have gone faster than this and more information can be found here:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/maxspeed.htm

More than any other car, the Porsche 917 has engendered a legend for performance and results but it is not helped by extending that legend beyond what it truly was. Stories of the car being clocked at 246 mph, propounded by no less than Derek Bell as well as many others, have never been verified and must be regarded as "Motorsport Myth" until more evidence is produced.

For example: it says "While testing the 917K for Le Mans, Porsche engineer Norbert Singer asked driver Derek Bell what revs he was pulling the engine on the Mulsanne Straight. He told him 8100 rpm, and Singer said that was good, because the engine would blow up at 8200 rpm. Bell recorded the fastest speed ever on the Mulsanne Straight: 246 mph (394 km/h).[6]"

This claim has been removed because it cannot be adequately referenced.

Even the Porsche factory does not make this claim for the 917. The highest speed they will vouch for is 384km/h (239mph, which is still plenty fast). Derek Bell's opinion, while well-qualified, is just that. No speed trap sources have ever been quoted for this and until they are, it would not be appropriate to include this figure in a reference article.

The Auto Club L'Ouest, which runs the 24 Heures du Mans, also does the timing and speed trap figures for the event. They make no such claim for the 917. The highest speed they ever recorded for it was 224mph during the race in 1971. It should be noted that the WM Peugeot was the first car to exceed 400km/h on the Mulsanne Straight, reaching 405 in 1988.

210.84.56.215 (talk) 12:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flanker235 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I note that a reference has been provided for the 240mph claim yet, having consulted that book myself, I can find no speed trap figures to support it. I have provided speed trap figures from the event to show that 240mph was not achieved by any car in 1971 (the year in question). Indeed, the Ferrari 512 was faster on the Mulsanne Straight in qualifying, according to Auto Club L'Ouest who operate the speedtraps. Numerous emails by me to Porsche on this matter have gone unanswered which shows that they neither support it or deny it. For this claim to stand, it is necessary to apply the same standards to both sides. I have shown that the claim is unlikely to be true. There has been considerable muddying of the waters, with claims that it was Jackie Oliver in night practice (was this actually done on the weekend in question?). Others say it was Derek Bell. Bell himself claims 246mph! Furthermore - and without reference to this article, there has been confusion between the three different types of 917: the Kurtz, the Langheck and the Can Am version. Confused? You should be. Flanker235 (talk) 22:00, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I will give this two weeks from today for speedtrap figures to be produced or the "over 240 mph" claim will be removed in line with Wikipedia's own policy that "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable". Flanker235 (talk) 23:05, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

This article needs a serious clean up. There are now claims of 246 mph for the 917 Langheck, claims which have been made by writers of books, rather than the people who actually measured them. Apart from that, the article now contradicts itself in several places because these claims do not tally with the official timing which put the car at 224.4 mph, some 22 mph less. This is not merely a matter of turning up the wick or getting a tow or a good exit out of Tertre Rouge either. Simple aerodynamic calculations make it highly unlikely, even in ideal conditions.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/maxspeed.htm

This supposed to be a reference-grade article and it requires more than a quote from some book that someone found. The ACO is a better source than a random book. Now, if the author of that book can prove that the ACO speedtrap figures are wrong then I would welcome it but there would need to be some serious evidence that this is so. Otherwise it is nothing more than pollution. Flanker235 (talk) 03:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The following claim has been removed:

" These cars were so stable that the drivers could take their hands off the steering wheel at speeds which reached 246mph."

The reason for doing this is that there is no record of a 917 ever achieving this speed. The highest actual recorded speed is 362 km/h (224.4 mph) by the ACO speed trap in the 1971 Le Mans 24 hours race:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/maxspeed.html

There is also considerable conflicting evidence on the claim about the car’s stability. Flanker235 (talk) 10:15, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

1,580 hp: needs clarification

This output was only ever achieved on a test bench and never used in racing. The claim needs to be changed or verified, as do many for the 917/30. *sigh* I will give it the customary 2 weeks to be verified or it will be removed. Flanker235 (talk) 09:42, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

The following section has been removed due to a complete lack of referencing and too much speculation:

The 917/30 could go from 0-62 mph (100 km/h) in 1.9 seconds, 0-100 mph (160 km/h) in 3.9 seconds, 0-200 mph (320 km/h) in 10.9 seconds, and on to a top speed of more than 260 mph (420 km/h)[citation needed]. The high-level of performance and attendant fuel consumption of the engines, and ever increasing risk, has led to the 917/30 sometimes being cited as the car that killed Can-Am racing.[citation needed]

If anyone can find credible references for these figures, I see no reason not to reinstate it. Flanker235 (talk) 00:50, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, the uncited claim of 2.7 bar boost is definitely suspicious and probably just plain wrong. In an interview with Adam Carolla on DRIVE channel, a Porsche engineer said the boost went up to 1.4 bar. This would be a pretty good reason for removing most of the power claims for the 917/30 on the basis that they are unreliable in the extreme. The only constant I have come across - confirmed by that engineer - is 1,100 hp. Flanker235 (talk) 14:27, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

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What Wikipedia is not...

Wikipedia is not an registry of who owns what (WP:NOTDIRECTORY) neither it is a fansite, therefore the "Chassis numbers" section must go. Donnie Park (talk) 08:49, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree. It's almost completely unreferenced as well and nearly consumes the page. --Sable232 (talk) 01:52, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Pressurized frame

The article makes the well documented claim that the frame was permanently pressurized for crack detection, which I have no reason to doubt. However it also claims that the frame was used to pump oil to a front oil cooler. This seems highly improbable from an engineering standpoint. Its one or the other, right?Batvette (talk) 03:57, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Both claims are correct. In Porsche 917 the undercover story by Gordon Wingrove, Peter Morgan Media 2006, the author (a J.W. Engineering team mechanic who worked on the Gulf 917s) states on page 150 that Porsche had originally used frame tubes to carry oil to the front-mounted radiator, but the Gulf team replaced them with 'armoured hoses'. Bill321 (talk) 04:42, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Porsche/Chevrolet claim

The following claim is incorrect and has been removed: :"The 917 was also the only championship winning car in Can Am not to be powered by Chevrolet." Dan Gurney used a Ford-powered Lola T-70 to win the 1966 Bridgehampton race. See "CAN-AM 50th Anniversary", Levy, George & Biro, Pete, Quarto Publishing Group, USA, 2016, p.36. Flanker235 (talk) 13:29, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I goofed. It said championship. I have put it back. My bad. Flanker235 (talk) 13:39, 7 August 2021 (UTC)