Talk:List of best-selling game consoles

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Addition of PocketStation to Best-selling consoles list

Is there any particular reason why the PocketStation is not included in the list? The source in its article says it sold nearly 5 million units.

I figure the likely reason is that most editors don't see it as a console (the old PSP image that was here for years claimed that the PSP was Sony's first handheld).

However, sources cited in the PocketStation article do refer to it this way: RPGFan, GamePro TavianCLirette (talk) 14:59, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because it's not really considered a console, probably. Its article currently describes it as a "is a memory card peripheral", which is consistent with my knowledge of it. It's more of an accessory. Closer to those old LCD game things, or a tomagotchi. Sergecross73 msg me 15:08, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I'm saying, but by who? It seems as if that's merely describing an aspect of the system. It doesn't help that the article's infobox & categories also label it a handheld console, as do mentions in other articles.
No source establishes that acting as a peripheral is mutually exclusive with being a standalone machine. See also: the VMU (no sales figure for that, though).
Furthermore, among old LCD game machines, the Game & Watch is included in this list, despite being a series of dedicated game-playing machines. TavianCLirette (talk) 15:30, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sources like this echo what I just said. Or this one from IGN. Memory card with tomagotchi-like features is a common, recurring theme. As this Kotaku feature outlines, it only featured the most bare bones of little mini games. Honestly, it take way more mental gymnastics to try to classify it as a console. Sergecross73 msg me 15:50, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, Game & Watch needs to be removed from the list. Yes we know how many units were sold, but they do not constitute a single console and lumping them all together doesn't change that. In fact, it makes it an invalid and misleading comparison. It's not like we include all those Tiger Electronics LCD handhelds lumped together, and they certainly sold enough units combined to be on the list if the Game & Watch line is here as one entry.
Those LCD handhelds also don't qualify because they are electronic games, but not video games, as the screens are only limited to the cutouts built into the LCDs, not actually creating video as the term is defined. They really don't belong here and I'm going to remove the Game & Watch entry. oknazevad (talk) 17:39, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support that too, for the record. Sergecross73 msg me 17:41, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thirded. -- ferret (talk) 17:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Checked the talk archives. There was never consensus to add it. In fact, it was specifically rejected in times past. Why it creeped in I don't know. But if someone in good faith re-adds it, it should be removed again. oknazevad (talk) 17:48, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with that. The Game & Watch doesn't belong on the list because each unit was a single game, with the screen designed for that game. That sales figure would be more comparable to software sales of a console. Thanks, everybody!
Anyway, back to the topic - the PocketStation. Neither of the criteria we've used against those LCD machines applies to it. The PocketStation has various software that it can download from PlayStation discs, including many that are small games.
I'll add that said games being more rudimentary doesn't hold weight against them being games by definition.
Of course, the PocketStation has an LCD screen with proper square grid-based graphics, albeit just black & white. The same can be said of the Microvision, which is called a handheld game console in the article's lead. TavianCLirette (talk) 22:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Commonly being classified as an accessory and not commonly being called a console is more than enough reason to keep it off. Sergecross73 msg me 22:09, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair argument. However, it can also be applied to home console add-ons, which are also on the list (Famicom Disk System, Sega CD, PC Engine CD-ROM).
Add-ons are effectively accessories for home consoles that let them play certain other games. What's more is, unlike the PocketStation, virtually no source considers add-ons to be their own consoles at all. If the PocketStation cannot be added, then those should definitely be removed. TavianCLirette (talk) 01:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not going to take any particular stance regarding the G&W. But did you all consider when analyzing, that the first game consoles in history were somewhat different than modern ones? It wasn’t until the second gen with the channel f the interchangeable cartridges appeared. WOWLWOWL 17:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is true that early machines intended to play video games are different from the consoles with interchangeable media that appeared later. I would say that neither single-game home systems (such as the Pong machines from the early era) nor single-game handhelds make the cut as “consoles” as the use of multiple media is a fundamental aspect of the term - however, I am having trouble finding sources that repeat this sentiment, so I have left it out of my most recent edit to the article. TavianCLirette (talk) 22:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pocketstation, game and watch, tamagotchi, tiger electronics, NES/SNES/etc mini, magnavox odyssey (1 and 2), atari pong and more are dedicated game consoles. I and many others consider them to be game consoles so unless otherwise establishing a criteria to be on this list I believe these should be included for a more inclusive, accurate, better informative list according to the title of itself. WOWLWOWL 18:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're approaching this from the wrong angle. If items have been removed from the list as a result of talk page discussion WP:CONSENSUS, then you should not be re-adding them until you hold new discussions to show there's a consensus for it. Sergecross73 msg me 19:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you implying I have added or edited something? WOWLWOWL 19:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, nowhere did I imply that. You said that you believe these should be included. Im answering that I disagree with that notion when you're referring to items previously discussed that didn't have support for inclusion. Sergecross73 msg me 19:42, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Saying I believe they should be included unless otherwise stating a set of criteria is not the same as “I will include them”.
What you said sounds like you’re reproaching me about something. So maybe you should be clearer or less intimidating.
”then you should not be re-adding them until you hold new discussions to show there's a consensus for it.” WOWLWOWL 20:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it was me saying what would happen if you did what you said you believed should be done. Sergecross73 msg me 22:19, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And can you see how wrong of a behavior you are showing? For real you need to take a chill pill this is a talk section to discuss ideas you cant be handing out threats like that. WOWLWOWL 23:29, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is why it might be a good idea to add a “Criteria” section before the table of best selling consoles to understand why the consoles on the list are on the list and why others arent.
on a side note, I do think game and watch and the Pocketsation should be included but Im not the consensus. Its just my opinion. Why? The G&W is a primitive video game machine. Yes they are dedicated (but dedicated home consoles are included in this list) and yes they are precut visuals but to me that is still a very primitive form of displaying a very short repetitive video. On those days people said “im going to buy a game and watch” and then chose the game. Its like buying different programmed cartridges. Thats what dedicated means.
Anyways, the Criteria for which console is on the list would help clarify and unify the decisions. WOWLWOWL 19:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What happened to all the 100 million console bubbles and psp bubble?

Just curious as all of the consoles over 100 million (and the psp) had an image on the side with a small description so I am just curious as to what happened to them. 158.135.172.117 (talk) 18:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 100m console images were removed because they made a large gap between the text & the list in some browsers. Before that, I removed the PSP image because the PSP isn't really notable for any real achievement. Another one that was removed was for the Game Boy & Game Boy Color, but was because they are separate consoles, not notable individually. TavianCLirette (talk) 16:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would the Game Boy really not be considered notable? It was the first console to reach 100 million plus established the modern handheld market Gemini.skywalker (talk) 02:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I thought so it was why i suggested its bubble originally. Also shouldn't there be one for the highest still selling console. Basically what i mean by that is in many charts if it is some sort of stat (like in sports) the highest active one gets a bubble saying they are the highest active one? 2601:2C4:C900:460:DF6:A3BE:3197:1FBC (talk) 05:30, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gemini.skywalker, that sales figure is exactly what I’m getting at. The Game Boy console alone did not sell over 100 million units. That’s the figure for it combined with the Game Boy Color. It is the only figure Nintendo provided after the release of the Game Boy Color, but it does not make the exaggerated “fact” any more true or noteworthy.
Even still, I believe the 100 million mark is arbitrary. There are incredibly impactful systems that sold just under that mark. Besides, while systems like the Wii & PS4 are famed for their success, I believe their high place on the list is sufficient coverage for their notability.
However, Nintendo showed it sold over 64 million before the Game Boy Color released. If another source can be provided which says at that time, the Game Boy was the best-selling console of all, that along with its role in popularizing its market might be notable enough to warrant a picture. TavianCLirette (talk) 20:25, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
well you just answered the question as the best selling console of all time before the Gameboy was the NES which sold when it was all set and done 61 million meaning that 64 means the Gameboy had overtaken the number 1 spot. The only thing that might challenge that is where the ps1 was in sales but even then the Gameboy with its combined sales would push it over to the number one spot before the ps2 would eventually dethrone it.
Basically the number 1 spot would be 2600 NES (depending on your opinion there would be another in there but that depends on how people count game and watches), Gameboy and then Gameboy/Gameboy color (again ps1 might have done it though it is unlikely), and PS2. 2601:2C4:C900:460:4B9:729C:C24A:7D4B (talk) 20:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria to fit this list

I can see there is a lot of inconsistency with what is chosen to be on this list and not. On one side the list has both dedicated and non dedicated home consoles. One thing to note is that the Odysseys also made dedicated versions and I believe those add up to the units sold being used here. So in that case there is even a mix of dedicated/nondedicated consoles. “ Dedicated consoles are a subset of game consoles that are only able to play built-in games. Video game consoles in general are also described as "dedicated" in distinction from the more versatile personal computer and other consumer electronics.” On the other hand portable consoles only accept non dedicated. Game and Watch not here for example. ” A handheld game console is a lightweight device with a built-in screen, controls, speakers, and has greater portability than a standard video game console. It is capable of playing multiple games unlike tabletop and handheld electronic game devices.”

So this criteria should be specified: For this list, dedicated portable consoles are not accepted but dedicated home consoles yes.

Another example of incoherence is the absence of consoles like the steamdeck because “it doesn’t have its own dev kit”. Dedicated consoles dont have devkits and there are probably other things on this list without devkits. Another criteria that needs to be specified.

There are some add-on consoles but then others aren’t allowed because they are more like accessories to the eyes of someone.

The Nokia ngage which is a phone primarily is here but other consoles with dual purposes aren’t included don’t know why.

The only real criteria established by this article is that it needs to have sold more than 1 million units (which is a shame because it weeds out classics like the Magnavox Odyssey).

I guess where I’m trying to head is that in order to avoid confusion there needs to be a text explicitly stating the scope and limitations of this list. WOWLWOWL 18:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It’s interesting that you mention that the list has some add-ons - I thought I removed them all not too long ago. I did so because, in another discussion (where I proposed the PocketStation be added), other editors held that we ought to get rid of entries that were more like accessories than their own independent systems. The add-ons seemed to fit the bill.
As for dedicated home systems versus dedicated handhelds, I’m under the impression that the home systems in the list made it because they still have multiple games (thus they are consoles by definition), while handhelds like the Game & Watch are generally single-game only. I agree though, the lead should be redefined to accommodate that. I’ll find the time to work on it.
Lastly, it is indeed strange that the N-Gage is included. By that logic, you’d think the iPhone, one of the most successful platforms to have video games ever, would be here. But it isn’t. At the very least the iPod touch, which doesn’t have the cell phone feature, & was marketed mainly for its ability to play App Store games, should easily be here if N-Gage is. TavianCLirette (talk) 22:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As the source in the article notes, n-Gage, at the time, was considered by reliable sources to be a console/phone hybrid. I'm indifferent to its inclusion, but that was probably the logic of whoever added it. I'd lean way more towards removing it than adding iPads/ipods/iphones, as they simply are not classified as consoles. Sergecross73 msg me 23:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
N-Gage used distinct physical media for games, too. Not that physical media is a requirement of consoles, but the distinct, closed platform format (as opposed to the open platform format of PC games) is a console characteristic. oknazevad (talk) 15:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, that too. They had a defined library of physical games, and the games and consoles were sold in video game retail stores too. I can see how editors/reliable sources could group them into consoles. Sergecross73 msg me 15:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reason for omitting the Game & Watch series and similar LCD games (like Tiger Electronics') as much as them being individual games only is that they're not video games. Their displays are incapable of displaying video. oknazevad (talk) 00:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ideally every game console that we know in our hearts are game consoles should be included in this list. G&W, Magnavox, Steamdeck, N-Gage, the add on consoles, even pocketstation and tiger electronics as a whole, etc. Im all for having the most complete list. Ipads, computers, cellphones, clones and emulation consoles have no reason to be here though.
What this article should have is a text that exposes every set of criteria that is taken into account to make it to this list.
Im saying this because this wikipedia article is currently the main one in this “best selling game consoles” subject. So every time someone comes here to check the position of a console that we all consider a game console and sees some inconsistency, we’re gonna be opening up the same discussions so its better to just refer to reading the set of criteria. WOWLWOWL 15:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
we know in our hearts are game consoles is simply not how Wikipedia works. You should understand by now that we reflect what is stated and covered by secondary reliable sources. Those are not consoles. They are various peripherals, accessories, and in some cases simply not referred to as consoles (Tiger handhelds). -- ferret (talk) 16:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. We cannot operate on subjective criteria like "what one knows in their hearts" because that will vary wildly across different editor's opinions. Sergecross73 msg me 16:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know that bro, Im not saying that we use our own opinions as a source. Im saying that I think it Would be better to include all consoles we all know are real market consoles and then find sources for them and make them “legal”. But in any case I suggest the article just includes the criteria taken into account and use that as a guide/reference point for any debate. Which is the topic of this discussion, not which/what are the criteria. Do you think something like that can help keep the article more transparent? WOWLWOWL 18:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's impossible to answer a hypothetical question like that without an actual set of criteria. Whether or not it would help would be 100% on what the criteria actually would be. Sergecross73 msg me 19:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't a hypothetical issue sergecross, its as simple as if it would be beneficial or not to write a set of filter. Its an idea to be discussed not a rough draft of it since it hasn't even been discussed. Anyways in that sense, for example a few criteria I think have been discussed:
Criteria for home consoles:
- +1 million units sold
- dedicated and non dedicated are accepted
- have its own game library
- have its own dev kit
- add-on consoles are not accepted
- emulation consoles are not accepted (except for the official licensed “mini” variants??)
- computers are not accepted
- VR consoles are accepted
- single country exclusives like the segas in Brasil are not accepted
- clones/homebrew not accepted
Criteria for handheld:
- +1 million units sold
- Dedicated are not accepted
- lcd screens are not accepted
- have its own game library
- have its own dev kit
- emulation devices not accepted
- clones/homebrew not accepted
- Consoles that are also mobile phones and/or computers not accepted
- mobile phones and tablets not accepted
of course this is worded very primitively and casually but the idea is something that avoids future debates if things are already cleared up WOWLWOWL 22:33, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe even make a separate table just for these that functions sort of like a blacklist WOWLWOWL 22:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sega Master System

How come Sega Master System and Sega Master System (Brazilian variants) are counted as separate systems when elsewhere on the list Game Boy & Game Boy Color get lumped together? Seems disingenuous. 2601:19C:5101:7E50:BC9D:4F7C:6735:4565 (talk) 13:10, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe anyone is trying to be "disingenuous". Some regulars discussed it late last year without any real strong feelings on it at Talk:List of best-selling game consoles/Archive 4#Sega console Brazilian variants. Personally, I just wasn't sure if they should be grouped because of the different manufacturers and timeframes involved. Another editor questioned if they were truly the same thing. A third editor thought they should be merged. Then discussion fizzled out.
If you wish to pursue it, it could be persuasive if you could prove that reliable sources commonly group the figures into one. If they do, maybe changed is warranted. If not, then we should probably keep it as is. Sergecross73 msg me 13:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As for why the two Game Boys are combined, that's Nintendo's fault. As the note states, they only provided combined statistics. It's not us who combined them: The source did. -- ferret (talk) 13:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectoy#:~:text=Tectoy%20continues%20to%20produce%20%22plug,3%20million%20Mega%20Drive%20variants.
this wiki article provides some figures: 8 million Brazilian Master System variants and 3 million Brazilian Mega Drive variants. I stumbled upon a random youtube video that is talking about the Sega Neptune being finally released but only in Brazil, and started reading on TecToy the Brazilian hardware manufacturer which has the Sega rights to produce all Sega consoles in Brazil. Its a real thing and facts must be included in any wiki article. We only need official sales numbers which the article I pasted apparently has already, yet I don’t know how updated those are. Maybe in a Brazilian database more numbers can be found.

Majesco and Atgames are two other official Sega console manufactures. If someone finds official sales numbers of these three companies then I think it could be summed up with the Sega hardware sales and stay true to the facts. WOWLWOWL 18:31, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2024

The selling units of XBOX series X/S will be 27 millions (instead of 21 millions) as it has been published in a news article. sources: 1. https://www.ign.com/articles/new-data-suggests-that-ps5-has-outsold-xbox-series-xs-2-to-1 2. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1429647/xbox-console-cumulative-sales/#:~:text=Microsoft's%20best%2Dselling%20Xbox%20video,units%20as%20of%20February%202024. Skaisar (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: IGN is making a guess based on a third party presentation, no figure is announced. Statista is unreliable. -- ferret (talk) 02:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Steam deck?

The steam deck has surpassed the 1m mark but isn’t on the list 90.251.77.18 (talk) 13:35, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a massive discussion on this that's now in the talk page archives. There wasn't a consensus to add it. There's debate on whether or not it's classified as a console. It's also pretty difficult to get accurate/up to date sales figures on it anyways. Sergecross73 msg me 15:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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