Talk:Kazuo Ishiguro

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Spoiler within "Literary Characteristics"/Overall appropriateness of the section

Just wanted to point out that the passage "This pathos is often derived from the narrator's actions, or, more often, inaction. In The Remains of the Day, the butler Stevens fails to act on his romantic feelings toward housekeeper Miss Kenton because he cannot reconcile his sense of service with his personal life..." contains a significant spoiler for one of Kazuo Ishiguro's major works for no real reason. Additionally, the entire section is original analysis, so I'm not sure if it's even appropriate for a biographical article on Mr. Ishiguro. I am very new at this, however, so I'll let the bigger brains handle any actual editing. Sandbaths (talk) 23:10, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Insufficient film citation

In the (as far as I can see uneditable) first section of the article, it's noted that Never Let Me Go was made into a movie. This suggests that Never Let Me Go was the only Ishiguro novel made into a film, but The Remains of the Day was released as a film released in 1993, garnering 8 Academy Award nominations and 6 BAFTA Award nominations. So it seems significant.

67.232.68.42 (talk) 22:12, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Need IPA?

@Bensin: I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. I've been proficient in Japanese for some time so maybe I am out of touch, but are the names "Kazuo" and "Ishiguro" so hard to read that readers with enough knowledge of linguistics that an IPA rendition would be useful to them would actually need it to attempt to pronounce the name? User:Sheila1988 added a really complex IPA rendering of the name, apparently as in standard Tokyo Japanese, which seemed anachronistic for someone whose parents emigrated from Kyushu with him when he was a toddler and who has lived in the UK ever since, and also seems somewhat dubious in its motivation -- was the point to tell readers that they should pronounce the name in Japanese even though that's nearly impossible for most native speakers of the language he writes in? We don't do that for Haruki Murakami, and Murakami is Japanese so a much stronger case could be made that the standard Japanese pronunciation is the "correct" one. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:26, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree. I see no added benefit to the addition of the English IPA other than to separate the subject further from his British heritage and bring him closer to his Japanese heritage. This appears to be editorial POV. I have no experience in Japanese but have no difficulty reading the name Kazuo Ishiguro. I am Ethiopian which perhaps gives me an added NPOV. It has been made abundantly clear that he is a British citizen of Japanese descent.

I could be convinced that a Japanese IPA is necessary but that should be in the pronunciation native to the region his family comes from which Hijiri88 points out is not Tokyo but Kyushu. —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I added it to the page since there was a request, but I agree that the need is tenuous. I'm fine with the removal of it; although, I do not agree that it is editorial POV. Nihlus 15:19, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

My apologies. Accusations of POV pushing on my part were not necessary. I am just concerned by the frequent back and forth this article is going through recently with frequent additions of Japanese related POV. I see you were just adding a requested IPA. IMO, an ENG IPA is not necessary but a Japanese IPA maybe necessary as the name in Japanese does seem to be listed in the surname-first style. If the IPA added by Sheila1988 or the one added by Nihlus is the correct pronunciation of his name in his native region of Kyushu (I am not sure if there are variant pronunciations), it should remain. —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 15:28, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't think it's a "Japanese POV" one way or the other. Yes, a few of the sources indicate that Japanese readers often treat him as one of their own, but that's relatively benign. In my experience the Japanese do that with westerners who lived in Japan and adopted Japanese names as well. Mainstream translations of Lafcadio Hearn's works tend overwhelmingly to refer to him as "Koizumi Yakumo" (as opposed to "Rafukadio Hān"), to the point where many of my Japanese teenage students have heard of him but think he simply was Japanese like them. Same with Hideo Levy, whose original given name "Ian" rarely appears on Japanese book jackets from what I can see. Rather, I suspect the "Japanifying" of Ishiguro is a western POV that "foreignizes" him. I've actually been discussing with User:Curly Turkey whether the kanji for his name really belongs in the lead: it's interesting encyclopedic information, and it was his legal name for a long time, so it definitely belongs somewhere in the article, but he is not known by it in English-speaking countries (the bulk of the target audience for his literature), and placing it so prominently in the lead does create the false impression that he is a Japanese writer, not a British one. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:18, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not going to take a strong stand on the kanji issue (though I lead mildly towards keeping it out of the lead), but there's absolutely no way that /ˈkɑːzuːoʊ ˌiːʃiːˈɡuːroʊ/ is a credible rendering of Ishiguro's name. IPA should appear only really when there's a likelihood of mispronunciation, which I doubt is the case here, but if we are going ot have IPA, this can't be it. The stressed syllables and the "oʊ" indicate it's an "English" pronunication—in which case, why is every vowel long? that's neither an English nor japanese pronunciation. The pronunciation Hijiri links to is th esort of thing that belongs in a textbook, never a Wikipedia opening sentence. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:32, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

It is not unusual for someone to slightly alter the pronunciation of their name when they visit or move to another country. The IPA-request I added was for how Kazuo Ishiguro himself pronounces the English version of his name. The request is not intended to take a stance in any possible conflict on to which culture he belongs "more". I was not aware of such a conflict and I am not interested to take part is such a discussion. I am, however, interested in helping interested readers to learn how to pronounce Kazuo Ishiguro's name like he himself pronounces it. I think all biographies should write out the pronunciation of the names using the International Phonetic Alphabet. That will help users to read the pronunciation of the names (Even in the case when a sound-file is present in the article because the reader's computer may lack speakers). Readers who don't have English as their native language may have a hard time to differentiate between similar sounds in English. For instance, is the z a voiced consonant here? It may be difficult to perceive for someone speaking a language where that sound does not appear. ("Only about 28% of the world's languages contain a voiced dental or alveolar sibilant."[1]) Which syllables are stressed? What is the exact sound of the last vowel? I'm aware there are readers who are less concerned with pronunciation, but I've read that it is a courtesy to pronounce someone's name the way they want you to pronounce it. An IPA would be helpful. --Bensin (talk) 13:37, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

So... English Wikipedia should provide a pronunciation key for readers of English Wikipedia who don't know how to read English? how Kazuo Ishiguro himself pronounces the English version of his name was not specified in your original request, and you didn't make it clear for over two weeks during which several other users chimed in. It really looked like you were requesting the "correct" pronunciation of the name in standard Japanese, since no one would assume your request was meant to help non-English-proficient readers of English Wikipedia. And honestly, the logic of your new rationale would apply to virtually every other biographical article as much as, if not more than, this one. Think about it: the common pronunciation of Ian Murray McKellen would not be at all intuitive to someone with only a rudimentary knowledge of English orthography, but that article doesn't give IPA in the lead sentence, probably because this is English Wikipedia, not Simple English Wikipedia (which is intended for non-native speakers). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:03, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Sure, it is true that someone who don't even know how to read English won't be much helped by an IPA. :-) I'm talking about those who do know English (of any level) but are uncertain how a certain name should be pronounced. What I suggest is that any reader who don't know how to pronounce a name can look it up on Wikipedia. I imagine this is helpful for anyone (but perhaps extra helpful for readers with another native language than English). Even a common name as Ian have alternative pronunciations (see Ian Ziering), and even such a common name as Theresa May (see that talk page for details) may cause doubt for a speaker whose language does not contain all the sounds that appear in English. As far as I'm concerned, the only "correct" pronunciations are the pronunciations that Kazuo Ishiguro himself uses (or prefers). So in this particular case, adding phonetics for both the "English pronunciation" and "Japanese pronunciation" would make sense to me. --Bensin (talk) 15:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, you should take your proposal to WT:MOS or WT:BIO: adding both "the Japanese" and "the English" pronunciations (which Japanese and English pronunciations?) to the lead sentence of this particular article would cause the parentheses to take up at least a full line of text on most screens, nothing about your proposal is particular relevant to this topic, and would apply at least as much to almost every other biographical article.

And, assuming you are right that Ishiguro himself pronounces his name "in English", then that can't be the only "correct" pronunciation: he was given the name by his parents, and given that his parents lived in Japan until they were adults then if his name has an "English pronunciation" they wouldn't use it.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not saying that Ishiguro's pronunciation of his own name "in English" is preferable to Ishiguro's pronunciation of his own name "in Japanese". Both can be added as far as I'm concerned. If it takes up too much space, the information can be added using a footnote named "pronunciation". --Bensin (talk) 17:46, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

IPA wouldn't reflect Ishiguro's own pronunciation; it would reflect how other people might approximate his pronunciation in their own voices. But they can already do that with the standard Hepburn spelling, and you have not been able to demonstrate that they would have a problem doing that. Normally IPA is used in articles like this where the person's own pronunciation differs radically from the intuitive reading (e.g., Kate Mara). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:26, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Kanji in lead?

Note that the leads of Daniel Inouye, Fred Korematsu, and Yuri Kochiyama also include kanji despite none of them ever being in Japan. Kazuo Ishiguro, on the other hand, was actually born in Japan and was there for the first 5 years of his life, and only received British citizenship in 1983. Vivexdino (talk) 23:31, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, but they also all have English names that are clearly different from their Japanese ones, meaning that the Japanese name is at least unique information and reflects the name they were probably known by in "private" when their relatives spoke to or about them in Japanese. (Well, with the exception of Kochiyama, but that's complicated.) Telling the reader that Kazuo Ishiguro in Japanese was originally known as Ishiguro Kazuo is not helpful information, and is slightly misleading. I don't find the "he only received British citizenship in his late 20s" argument convincing, as he was already publishing in English before that point, and his main identification document recognized by UK immigration authorities from when he was five until that time was his Japanese passport, which almost certainly had his name printed in English as "Kazuo Ishiguro"; the fact that his Japanese birth cert probably gave the kanji and not the Hepburn is pretty irrelevant. The kanji name is only really useful for people who are primarily known somewhere in the world under the kanji name, and this has never been the case with our present subject. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I still don't see anything wrong with the kanji. The article makes it pretty clear that he's British and no where does the article call him Japanese. Vivexdino (talk) 23:58, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

You're missing the point. The burden is on you to explain how including kanji in the lead is useful. Non-Roman text at the stands out far more than any statement that he is British and not Japanese, in the lead or elsewhere.

You are wrong if you think the article explicitly, unambiguously, and in a manner that clearly makes my concerns moot, states that "He is British, not Japaneae, and his works are a part of English literature, not Japanese literature". The British titles we give him don't help, since he could have those by virtue of holding British citizenship and having had his Japanese books widely read in English translation -- we present Jin Yong the same way and his books aren't widely read in languages other than Chinese. Giving his Japanese name so prominently creates the impression that somewhere in the world, at some point, he has published writings under that name. It doesn't serve any other purpose.

Another point that didn't occur to me until just now is that, appearing in the lead but not the body, as opposed to the body but not the lead, means it is not sourced and is difficukt to request a source. I actually suspect reliable sources giving his name's 漢字表記 might be in short supply, since he was almost certainly not a well-known writer in Japan before he became a British citizen -- maybe the book jackets of Japanese translations of his works give the kanji in parentheses, or maybe they actually appear under his "Japanese name" (see the Lafcadio Hearn comparison above)? But we certainly won't find a lot of English sources that give his name in kanji, which makes one wonder why an English-language encyclopedia article would feel the need to give it such prominence.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:28, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Then we should also remove the kanji from Yoichiro Nambu and Shuji Nakamura using that argument. I find it extremely hypocritical how you make a big deal out of this article having kanji and not other articles like Daniel Inouye, Fred Korematsu, and Yuri Kochiyama, even though those people are purely American and have absolutely no connection to Japan whatsoever. If anything, this article downplays his Japaneseness even though Ishiguro himself has described it as a big part of his identity. Vivexdino (talk) 02:44, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Then we should also remove the kanji from Yoichiro Nambu and Shuji Nakamura using that argument. What argument? I made several different ones. But it doesn't really matter, since nothing I wrote applies to either Nambu or Nakamura, both of whom did things that made them notable in Japan before ever moving to America, which they did as adults, and both are clearly known in Japan by their names as written in kanji.

I find it extremely hypocritical how you make a big deal out of this article having kanji and not other articles like Daniel Inouye, Fred Korematsu, and Yuri Kochiyama You're the one making a big deal out of it, and given that I have never edited any of those articles (I never even read the latter two until you brought them up, I find it pretty confusing why you would call me a hypocrite for not making particular edits to particular Wikipedia articles on topics I'm not interested in. You should strike that ad hominem remark, by the way.

even though those people are purely American and have absolutely no connection to Japan whatsoever As I have already told you several times, I am not interested in editing those other unrelated articles., but there is a reasonable case to be made that since those people had both Japanese and English names, noting both (and writing the former in Japanese script) is theoretically justifiable. But, again, you should take that argument to those talk pages if you have a problem with giving both the Japanese and English names of "pure" Americans with "absolutely no connection to Japan whatsoever". I'm arguing about unsourced content misleading readers of this BLP (all three of the examples you give have been dead for years) into considering Ishiguro a "Japanese author", something Ishiguro himself has noted as a common and problematic misconception about him and his work.

If anything, this article downplays his Japaneseness even though Ishiguro himself has described it as a big part of his identity. Umm ... citation needed? Ishiguro is notable exclusively as a writer, but no discussion of modern Japanese literature would mention him except possible as a western reader of it. He has said in interviews that he doesn't read Japanese (the source we currently cite for his naturalization implies that this was one of the reasons he decided to become a British citizen rather than renewing his Japanese passport).

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:14, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Most people would simply see the kanji as indicating he is of Japanese descent, and would simply skim past it as they can't read it. You're the one reading into it as giving the impression he is still a Japanese citizen and part of Japanese literature, completely ignoring the rest of the article and simply focusing on some minor kanji that most people skim past. You justify other articles including kanji because it "reflects the name they were probably known by in "private" when their relatives spoke to or about them in Japanese" applies moreso in Ishiguro's case compared to them. How you see this article implying that he is not a British author and not part if English literature, simply astounds me. If you're simply making a big deal out of this because you want to erase his Japanese heritage or ethnicity from the article, then you would need to wait to get consensus. Vivexdino (talk) 03:44, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Vivex, I have better things to do with my time than argue with you indefinitely over a change I didn't even propose making to the article, which you apparently "read into" a comment that was actually about something completely unrelated. I'll leave others to contemplate why on earth you did this, but I see no reason to waste any more time on it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:13, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Like I said above, I'm not taking an actual stance on the kanji issue, but if forced at gunpoint based solely on the arguments offered here, I'd have to say Hijiri's making a stronger argument. It's unlikely that "most people would simply see the kanji as indicating he is of Japanese descent", especially given how many people hwo have actually read his books assume them to be translations from Japanese.[2][3][4] The kanji is a straight fact from the subject's biography, but it's placement wihtin the first several bytes of the lead could be misleading and might violate WP:WEIGHT. It also doesn't serve the purpose it would in properly "japanese" articles, where many people (such as myself) consult the lead to find the correct kanji for the subject to perform searched in Japanese. Searching for Ishiguro's kanji won't get the desired results, as his name is spelt in katakana in Japanese works about him, and the vast majority of writing about him will be in English. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:42, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

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Related discussion

I have started a discussion at Template talk:Kazuo Ishiguro concerning which category Template:Kazuo Ishiguro should be in, which is of relevance to this article. Dunarc (talk) 16:41, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Place of Birth/previous nationalities in the lead

Per Wikipedia guidelines as specified in WP:Ethnicity, place of birth, previous nationalities, and/or place of birth are not included in the lead unless directly relevant to notability. Specifically, the country of permanent residence and/or nationality during which notability was achieved is the one included in the lead. For this individual, this was the U.K., as a British citizen. Furthermore, Japan does not permit dual citizenship. Therefore, the phrase "Japanese" and/or "Japanese-born" should not be in the lead but rather, further down in the article. Apoorva Iyer (talk) 02:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Archive index missing

What I said. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:00, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. Graham87 17:22, 11 June 2022 (UTC)