Talk:Jesus College, Oxford/Archive 1

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NPOV!

The Student Life secion seems biased.

  • 'One result of the size of the college site is that first-year students tend to see a lot of each other and thus form both strong bonds of friendship and a keen sense of college spirit, giving rise to the reputation of Jesus being a friendly college.'
    • 'The size' - small? It's not particularly small.
    • Students in almost all colleges form strong bonds of friendship.
    • Reputation: really?

<<<SEE COMMENT BELOW>>>

  • 'recently featuring highly in the academic Norrington Table'
    • 13th out of 30 is not high
  • 'while the sports teams have often reached the heights of intercollegiate competitions.'
    • Really? Perhaps this could be justified on this talk page.
  • 'Many undergraduates feature in the music and drama worlds, while others contribute to student journalism for Cherwell or The Oxford Student. One area in which Jesus undergraduates tend not to appear, however, is politics: the college has a well-deserved reputation for apathy when it comes to Oxford Union and OUSU hacking and undergraduates seeking to change that have tended to find the consensus unwilling to budge.'
    • These all need justification. This sounds like original research to me...or original experience, at least.

Hugh Price should be mentioned together with his position as Archdeacon of Brecon in the first paragraph. This would set the context for subsequent references to the Welsh connection.----Clive Sweeting 29 AUG 2006-

Hugh Price should be mentioned in the opening paragraph. Mention of his position as Archdeacon of Brecon would help to set the context for the Welsh connections which are subsequently developed---- Clive Sweeting 29 Aug 2006

  • According to The Sheepshagger the College Bar has the friendliest bar staff to be found in the University.
    • Just no. Not from the college's own informal newsletter.

I will make changes in hours/days to come.

Samgra 09:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC) (Note: I am an Exonian)

No objections from me. --Mel Etitis (??? ??????) 14:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that some of this section looks iffy. Some can be justified (see below), but there is a need for pruning. The bar staff are indeed great, but this is clearly POV on my part, and I wouldn't try using The Sheepshagger as a citation for anything! Whether 13th of 30 is high or not is also POV; we should state the figure or give a link to the Norrington Table if we think it matters. If this bit was written before the 2005 figures came out, describing 5th of 30 as "featuring highly" would be a bit more justifiable. I think on balance these details are out of place; you wouldn't put last week's scores in an article on Chelsea Football Club!
--Casper Gutman 00:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC) (Full disclosure: I'm a Jesubite of almost six years' standing)

IT REALLY IS SMALL - the reference is to the physical size of the college. Compared to other Oxford Colleges, Jesus is very small. And since it isn't physically big, it is almost entirely populated by first years (who spill out into Ship Street - the College cannot accommodate a full year group) as post-prelims almost all second/third/fourth years necessarily live in college flats either in Cowley or on the Woodstock Rd, thus the comment here is accurate. The college is small, first years do see a lot of each other, this does form a kind of college spirit and Jesus does have a reputation as a friendly college - it's part of the ganda of oxford tour guides, its mentioned in blurbs about the college in prospectuses, and many Oxford students know Jesus as friendly. Objective evidence of a reputation - perhaps not, but reputations are always subjective. The point being made is that compared to larger colleges, e.g. Christchurch, that year groups are relatively small and live together helps to establish a close-knit friendly atmosphere, where students get to know a higher proportion of their year group than elsewhere. Sorry to go on - your other comments seem fair. TymShepherd 07:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Citations please? --Mel Etitis (??? ??????) 22:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
  1. For evidence of the small size of the college's main site, a quick glance at a map will suffice! There's a nice one of central oxford, with college sites highlighted and labelled, at http://www.dailyinfo.co.uk/sheet/maps/dn-day.pdf.
  2. For evidence that the college houses all Fresher undergraduates on the main site and in houses in adjacent Ship Street, and that most students then live on the college's other sites in later years, see the college prospectus at http://www.jesus.ox.ac.uk/admissions/prospectus/accommodation.php.
  3. There is evidence out there that the college is reputed to have a close-knit, friendly atmosphere; proving the reputation to be well-founded would be trickier so I won't try! The best I could manage in ten minutes was the web version of OUSU's Oxford Handbook. At http://www.oxfordhandbook.com/the_university/colleges/jesus/ the third paragraph says "The atmosphere among the students is friendly and close-knit. Jesubites can get the reputation for being a bit insular, but that certainly makes for an increased sense of community in college[...]". Since this is from a website/printed publication comparing Oxford colleges it is presumably intended to imply friendliness etc. beyond that to be found at Oxford colleges more generally.
I haven't provided evidence that (3) results from (1) and (2), but it doesn't seem an unreasonable proposition, and I can't think of any more likely explanation.
--Casper Gutman 00:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC) (Full disclosure: Jesus College student)


Thanks for the discussion.

  • I have deleted the reference to sheepshagger
  • I have corrected the "high" on the Norringtonn Table - 13th out of 30 can only be called average/middle. I don't think you can really argue that 'high' is a better term than 'average.'
  • I'm not convinced about the reputation. Prospectuses are hardly reliable and oversimplify things. But I will leave this for the moment.
  • Size: I was thinking in terms of student numbers, but now realise that the sentence doesn't necessarily mean this.

Also:

  • What sports has Jesus done well in lately? I don't know - I'm not in Oxford anymore. I just wonder if this has been left in there from years past.

Samgra 09:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Reworded "not being especially noted for its prowess in any particular field", as I felt it sounded a bit derogatory. I'm sure that wasn't the intention, but it just struck me as something that didn't sit well.
This paragraph (Student Life) is still pretty weak, but probably better than it was. I might try adding more verifiable (and maybe interesting) info at some point.
Not sure about recent sporting achievements - not really my thing....--Casper Gutman 09:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Edited the offending section some more, and added a few extra things. Is this any better? Opinions? --Casper Gutman 12:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a huge improvement. I've removed the NPOV warning. Thanks for putting up with an Exonian editing the Jesus page! Samgra 12:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
No problem. Thanks for spurring on the improvements! --Casper Gutman 15:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


Welsh connection

I remember a service conducted all in Welsh, presumably on St David's Day. If this tradition is continuing, it may be worth mentioning. --Alf melmac 07:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Quite right, Alf. The St David's Day service still takes place each year. Having been in the choir for that service a good few times, I must be one of the select few non-Welsh speakers in the world who could write this out from memory... "Gogoniant i'r Tad, ac i'r Mab, ac i'r Yspryd Glân; Megis yr oedd yn y dechrau, y mae yr awr hon, ac y bydd yn wastad, yn oes oesoedd. Amen." I'll add a little paragraph! --Casper Gutman 10:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Glory be! :) new section works for me, I was previously unaware of the pudding. --Alf melmac 15:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Jesus College, Oxford/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Cut-and-pasted from the article talk page (Casper Gutman) Wow! Excellent, well-written article! Nice use of photos. Well referenced. Good work! Dr. Cash 22:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 06:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 15:05, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Named after...

Someone (anonymous) changed the entry for "named after" in the infobox from "Jesus Christ" to "Jesus of Nazareth". I feel the former was probably marginally preferable — though calling Jesus "Christ" is a specifically Christian thing there can be no doubt it was the Christian messianic figure the college's founders had in mind when they named the place! Anyone else have any views? --Casper Gutman 20:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree that "Jesus Christ" is better in this context. Was tempted to make the reversion myself when I saw it earlier, but wasn't sufficiently concerned to act unilaterally. If there is consensus either way on this one, so much the better. Bencherlite 20:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC) (PS Casper - nice infobox fix on the GCR President point!)

Peer review

I just requested a peer review to get some ideas for improving the article. All contributions welcome at Wikipedia:Peer review/Jesus College, Oxford/archive1. --Casper Gutman 12:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

MCR vs. GCR

Jesus doesn't have an MCR, instead it has a GCR. I tried to edit the file to reflect that, but changing the M to a G just made the entry not show in the table. Can someone cleverer than me fix this?

booth.adam 3/1/07. (Disclosure: old member).

(I took the liberty of moving this to the bottom of the page, to keep the comments in date order). From what I can see, the infobox is based on a standard template and changing MCR to GCR can only be done at the source template page - which would mean that all other Oxford colleges would be given GCRs, when the majority have MCRs. Short of coming up with a second template for Colleges-with-GCRs, we may have to live with it... Bencherlite 23:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Since the infobox template has many optional fields, I could see no harm in adding one more! So, it now has a "GCR president" option as well as an "MCR president" one. Of course, no article will use both of these! This seems to me like a reasonable compromise. The (more complicated) alternative would have been to provide an entry for "MCR name" or similar, with a default value of "MCR". This could have been used for e.g. Brasenose's "HCR". I'm afraid my mastery of the more esoteric features of template-coding weren't up to this though! --Casper Gutman 20:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
So why exactly has GCR been changed back to MCR in the Infobox?D22 20:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Casper, who is no fool when it comes to Jesus College matters, changed it in this edit with the edit summary "GCR -> MCR: see http://gcr.jesus.ox.ac.uk/", but I can't see anything there to indicate that Jesus now has an MCR. (Pops off to ask Casper what he's doing). Bencherlite 20:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Should have replied to this sooner. Perhaps I did, somewhere else.... The GCR/MCR seems confused as to what it's called just now. Apparently the G/MCR committee tried changing the name (to MCR) a couple of times but failed to get the members to vote for it! Perhaps they'll manage to make the change one day but until then I'll leave the page alone. Casper Gutman (talk • contributions) 16:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
A little post hoc, but I should say that I participated in the vote to change the name last year and that it was passed, albeit after some debate, and that "MCR" is now correct. The change is largely cosmetic and was made because a sizable minority of the active membership at the time weren't actually graduates (4th year physicists, medics etc.) I am no longer a student at Jesus, I handed in my thesis last summer, so I am a little out of the loop, but I have not heard of any changes in this regard. Rje (talk) 23:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Peer review for a related Jesus College list

List of founding Fellows, Scholars and Commissioners of Jesus College, Oxford is listed for Peer Review at this location, if anyone is interested. BencherliteTalk 23:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


Endowment

I have removed the following from the lead:

"As of 2006 the college had a [[financial endowment]] of £119m.<ref>[http://www.btinternet.com/~akme/OXCpress.html Oxford College Endowment Incomes, 1973-2006] (updated July 2007)</ref>"

It is out of date and I am not sure about the website hosting the figures. If the size of the endowment is worth mentioning in the article, then an up-to-date and properly sourced figure is needed; the material should also be in the body of the article, not just in the lead. BencherliteTalk 10:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jesus College, Oxford/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Starting review. Pyrotec (talk) 10:55, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Inital comments

After several quick read-throughs this article appears to be at or about GA-standard, and I'm not spotted (yet?) any major "holds"; I'll therefore continue with an in depth review section by section, but leaving the WP:Lead until last. Pyrotec (talk) 13:42, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
  • History -
  • Location and buildings -

....to be continued. Pyrotec (talk) 19:14, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

  • Appears to be compliant.
  • People associated with the college -
  • Appears to be compliant.

....to be continued. Pyrotec (talk) 10:15, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

  • Student life & Silverware -
  • These appear to be compliant.

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    Well referenced
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    Well referenced
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
    Well illustrated
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

The problems that led to this article being delisted, particularly lack of adequate citations, appear to have been addressed. I'm therefore awarding this article GA-status. Congratulations, on re-acheiving Ga-status. Pyrotec (talk) 19:53, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

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"Sheepshagger" = offensive?

The article currently describes The Sheepshagger name as a reference to an 'offensive joke' about the Welsh. Is this really true? The term is freely bandied about amongst groups of English and Welsh friends with no offence intended or taken. No sane English person genuinely believes that a significant proportion of the Welsh population has sex with sheep. --Ef80 (talk) 14:48, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

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GA Review

Wow! Excellent, well-written article! Nice use of photos. Well referenced. Good work! Dr. Cash 22:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

w00t, pats on back all round, peeps.--Alf melmac 15:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


Great work. I can't believe that I was an undergraduate for four years and yet failed to come across so many facts about the college.

15:31, 15 May 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevehem (talk • contribs)

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