Talk:ICC Men's T20 World Cup

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Performance of teams

Shouldn't a tie be considered as a win for win percentage calculation based on the end-result, i.e., super-over or bowl-out, rather than a splitting of points? Does this not simply defeat the purpose of having a tie-breaker in the end? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheInnocentBystander (talk • contribs) 13:11, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 19 October 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Despite the references to WP:COMMONNAME, WP:OFFICIAL NAME and WP:CONCISE, it seems clear that in this situation a sex-specific title is needed. One of the running themes seems to be if one was a new reader, what would one require as a title to explain this event. This is a situation that requires WP:IGNORE. (non-admin closure) comrade waddie96 ★ (talk) 17:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]


ICC T20 World Cup → ICC Men's T20 World Cup – Move request made on Talk:2020 ICC T20 World Cup. I would assume we cannot change one without changing the other, so raising the request here as well to widen the input Jopal22 (talk) 15:13, 19 October 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Sceptre (talk) 18:19, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussed at the Talk:2020 ICC T20 World Cup. Dey subrata (talk) 11:17, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
† There are examples of naming Men's tournament as "Men's", as its official name. For example Men's Hockey World Cup, 2019 FIVB Volleyball Men's Nations League, 2020 Men's World Ice Hockey Championships, NCAA Division I men's swimming and diving championships, these are some other popular sports. More than that USA's national team is named as United States men's national soccer team, its a very "Unique"example. which support the name change argument twice. First its inconsistent with other "(Country) National football team", and also the name use "USA mens national soccer team", which is also inconsistent with other article, but its still here as the official name is that one. So what is official should be put, which all logics indicates such. ICC don't recognize Indian or Australian male team as India cricket team and Australia cricket team, They separately recognise them as India men's cricket team and Australia men's cricket team from women's team. All their records include the word "Men's, like this here, someone made those articles in wrong way in the first place. It should be changed, along with all other national team articles. I can do it without complaining, if there is 100 articles I can do it, no problem, it can be made consistent with all other articles just within half an hour.Dey subrata (talk) 11:11, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: ICC Men's T20 World Cup is the official name by ICC. The logo itself in the article showing the name. It would be bizzare to not write the official name in the article. Secondly, all other popular website like CRICBUZZ, ESPN, CRIC WAVES address the tournament disambiguous way. Citation already added in the article also says so. Finally, the argument of inconsistency does not come into picture, by that logic, the article should not be even named as ICC T20 World Cup as previous all other edition are named as ICC World Twenty20. And lastly, from now all ICC tournament will be disambiguously named, for male tournament it will be added "Men's" and for female, it will be "Women's" starting the T20 tournament. So, if its official then Wikipedia must display the same and make changes to other articles to maintain consistency with the latest article but not making changes in the official name to bring consistency with the previous articles. Dey subrata (talk) 11:29, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@David Biddulph: Which part from WP:COMMONNAME and WP:Official names you think not align my comments. If any of the policies opposing my move of changing then it ideed oppose the present name itself, as previous name of the tournament was ICC World Twenty20. Dey subrata (talk) 11:47, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The old title doesn't really work in terms of naturalness for me. Two abbreviations after each other make me think of some computer tournament instead of sport. If this title change doesn't make it, the lede should make clear that this is about men's cricket. Femke Nijsse (talk) 22:18, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, the proposed title also include both abbreviations: ICC and T20. How adding a gender an improvement? Khestwol (talk) 10:58, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The abbreviations are not next to each other anymore. Two abbreviations next to each other gives me the impression we're talking computers instead of sport. By including a gender, it's more clear that this is sport as there aren't that many domains in life anymore where we separate things by gender. Femke Nijsse (talk) 11:17, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have confusion with the 2018 FIFA World Cup, for example? What sport is it? What gender is it? Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 12:24, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A bit yes. I had to explicitly learn that FIFA world Cup wasn't the name for the two tournaments together, but instead a term reserved for the men's tournament. It still takes me a bit of brain power each time it's mentioned to realize they're not talking about both World Cups. I've had countless conversations about football where people did get confused about the gender when not explicitly mentioned. In contrast to football, cricket is not very well known outside of the UK + connected countries, so many international readers might not know the intricacies of gender politics there and just assume that it's similar to hockey or tennis in terms of mentioning gender in the case we're only talking about one gender. Femke Nijsse (talk) 14:42, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Lugnuts:
  • Yes I have. I am fifteen years old, who first encountered with FIFA world cup now, I felt confusion in determining what gender is playing this tournament and I am severely confused with "male" team being called as "national team" but "female" team is segregated as "women's national team". Yes I have confusion.. why the idea of generation before mine is putting there sexist idea and gender biased idea on me. I would rather prefer to define the article as "ICC Mens' T20 Worldcup" (which is offcial now) which makes me clear along with every new idividuals like me who first encountered it, without reading history of the tournament, because I don't want to go through all what happened in past, I like to focus on present things and I don't find disambiguaity in the name and thats why the official name is "ICC Men's T20 World Cup" not "ICC T20 World Cup" and I will be more confused as the Women's T20 gonna starts before the Men's T20 and it will be held in the same country and if we don't segregate I will be confused and many other. Dey subrata (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Secondly, it is a poor argument by bringing another sports reference to support your logic. If thats you logic then now answer me which one is less confusing, 2018 FIFA World Cup and Men's Hockey World Cup. Consider youself to be first time encountered with football and hockey world cup, and seeing both the name, in which case will you immediately say that, this tournament is definitely a men's tournament ??? Question yourself. This wikipedia is not for people who already knew things, but for the people also who are new to this world, don't make them confuse with your poor logic. Dey subrata (talk) 12:46, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thirdly, ask an Australian editor or reader, hey "When is the T20 World Cup?". Guess what, the first response will be Which one, Men's or Women's ???, we are the host of both tournament.. Now you got it. How confusing it is?? Yes its a huge confusion. (The page move is requested along with the page move of 2020 ICC T20 World Cup to 2020 ICC Men's T20 World Cup, thats why discussion of this move is relevant with the other page move ) Dey subrata (talk) 12:54, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"don't make them confuse with your poor logic" - Please see WP:NPA. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 12:51, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, if you don't have any answer it become personal attack, I did not do any personal attack, I know very well what a personal attack is. Better you answer all those asked above. Dey subrata (talk) 12:57, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"I know very well what a personal attack is" - I know, as you have used them here. Anyway, if the title is confusing to you, then you read the lead to tell you what it refers to. For example, take this article linked from the frontpage. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 13:11, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • You didn't response to my above points, specially 2nd and third. First response these.
  • I am reader who interested just in match infos, I don't want to go through the lead. Many people visit to just go through the stats, why should I waste my time in reading lead of the section.
  • Why should I have to read the lead to understand, "Oh it the men's tournamnet they are referring as ICC T20 World cup not by official name". I hope your response must be specific to the above points now. Dey subrata (talk) 13:27, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • And if its only by reading "lead" I have to understand that the article is talking about ICC Men's T20 Worldcup, then why do you need to write even "T20 World Cup" you can just name the article ICC T20 tournament and just reading the lead one can understand what the article is talking about. Again a poor argument. Dey subrata (talk) 13:31, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The men's article for the Cricket World Cup is at Cricket World Cup. The women's article is at Women's Cricket World Cup. The (men's) football world cup is at FIFA World Cup, with the women's article at FIFA Women's World Cup. Same for the national men's teams in cricket (England cricket team vs. England women's cricket team) and football (England national football team vs. England women's national football team). Per countless other examples on WP, the men's tournaments and teams omit the word "men's". Your rationale is flawed. Lets move India national football team at the Olympics to India men's national football team at the Olympics, so it's crystal clear. Basically, you're trying to make a point, after you didn't like the reversal of your earlier page move of this article. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 19:04, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, you failed to respond to the above point 2nd and 3rd.
  • You repeated again what you said in your first comment, which I responded (above †) and after which you had no response. To clarify again there are many such articles which are disambiguously written for male "Men's" and for female "Women's", the example are given twice above, you must have ignored. Now we are talking about cricket, so please don't bring other sport here, because my example cancels your logic as I have given examples of other sports where its been used. If coming to football as you brought the topic, If FIFA officially annouce any of its tournament specifically as Men's, I will ask to change all tournamnets name and team name, but its not such officially by FIFA. But why here, because ICC has officially and specifically named it as Men's, period. Dey subrata (talk) 19:57, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • support, it's confusing to use the non-sex-specific name for the men's tournament when the official name is sex-specific and the non-sex-specific name may refer to both tournaments. Frietjes (talk) 12:12, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Archiving references

@Gog the Mild: Need archiving here. Dey subrata (talk) 05:41, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ranking overall championship

Surely it goes number of wins, numerous of runners up, number of semis. 82.3.116.211 (talk) 12:28, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

po 2409:4050:E0C:591C:0:0:11C8:6009 (talk) 08:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy

@Marshyg what's your problem as you are promoting non free content on page's infobox over free content —🪦VSVNB1058 (2020-2023) (TALK) 11:19, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 15:09, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– All ICC events and particular tournaments do not have the word Men's in it as the common name is that withoutt the mens, for example; 2023 Cricket World Cup, 2019 Cricket World Cup or 2017 ICC Champions Trophy. Moreover, previous events of the same tournament are called 2016 ICC World Twenty20; where they dont have Men's. ICC introduced adding that word to the official title, yet as the common name for the 2023 Cricket World Cup does not use men's, neither should these set of articles; and the women's tournaments as per existing precedent already have the word "women's" in them. The qualifier articles for even the 2021 edition do not have men's; so it should be move. Its even debatable if the word "ICC" needs to be there in the name of every article. If editors do end up disagreeing to this move, then we would also have to change the Cricket World Cup articles to "ICC Men's Cricket World Cup; as that also has new official logo, name and branding." Obviously, that outcome would be acceptable (though it will make for a lot of unnecessary page moving and non-following of WP:COMMONNAME, so please keep this in mind before !voting. Apologies for having written this thrice) 

Pharaoh496 (talk) 06:13, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: modifications were made to 2021 ICC Men's T20 World Cup Final → ... and 2022 ICC Men's T20 World Cup Final → ... because they are redirects, which are ineligible to be current titles in move requests. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 14:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose — see this gender specification in T20 World Cup articles is required because we have both men's and women's tournaments in the same year. Like there is even 2024 Women's T20 World Cup to be held later this year. It is understandable in the ODI World Cup, but we should have "Men's" in the titles in this case. Cric editor (talk) 08:35, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current articles which exist: 2016 ICC World Twenty20, 2016 ICC Women's World Twenty20. That would be enough to rest the argument.
  • All cricket men's national teams and women's teams coexist together but the male national teams do not have "mens", as names are according to common names; which is the convention for naming these articles.
Pharaoh496 (talk) 14:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
" Current articles which exist: 2016 ICC World Twenty20, 2016 ICC Women's World Twenty20. That would be enough to rest the argument."
Naming conventions have changed, ICC refers to the world cup as ICC Mens T20 World Cup https://www.icc-cricket.com/tournaments/t20cricketworldcup
"All cricket men's national teams and women's teams coexist together but the male national teams do not have "mens", as names are according to common names; which is the convention for naming these articles."
In my view, this needs to be changed too, example, there is a discussion on the Australian Men's Cricket team page on this as well, In fact for Australia, the cricket teams social media presence now includes the Men's team distinction. TheDataStudent (talk) 00:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It should most likely fail. India national cricket team had a change request which failed. Also, with that logic, shouldnt we also then change 2023 Cricket World Cup to "2023 ICC Men's Cricket World Cup"? Then this logic would make sense; but it would rip through convention and cause a lot of moving. Its legit the common name. Pharaoh496 (talk) 03:57, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2023 world cup should also change as it was marketed by the ICC as 2023 Men's World Cup.
My point is that we should follow whatever branding guidelines have been used to name these events by the event organizer. ICC specifies the gender in its marketing material, therefore Wikipedia should follow suit.
But that does not mean we retroactively move previous events to fit the new naming scheme, especially when previous events were governed by older naming schemes. TheDataStudent (talk) 05:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As for individual teams, I am still supportive of gendered team titles, having the Womens team specified as a Womens team, and the Mens team titled as just the national team suggests that the Womens team is somehow not on the same level as the Mens team as it pertains to national representation, this is however a social commentary and not relevant to the case at hand. TheDataStudent (talk) 05:55, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can read the discussion I mentioned to here the other side argument Pharaoh496 (talk) 09:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That does not make sense - having one name for one edition which is different from those of the previous ones. We should ideally keep one common name - either keep ICC Men's in all article titles or remove it from all. Thats how common name works. Someone goes on and refers to it commonly as the "T20 World Cup"; and not the "ICC Men's T20 World Cup."
It does make for an argument that theres a women's equivalent tournament, which is why it should be called men's; but for tournaments like Cricket World Cup; ICC Champions Trophy; Asia Cup (officially called ACC Men's Asia Cup) and so on; national cricket teams (which dont have men's in the name) and so on.
The sole reason I am advocating for this move is for a same norm to be set in on all these cricket related tournaments - the branding will keep changing but the WP:COMMONNAME is gonna be the same for the time being. Pharaoh496 (talk) 09:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Talk:India national cricket team#Requested move 4 December 2023 The discussion I am referring to. Pharaoh496 (talk) 04:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose these are clearly branded with men's in the name for these years, just look at the ICC event logos. This is unlike the 50 over Worls Cup, which brands the men's event as "Cricket World Cup". We shouldn't default to male as norm when sources and the ICC aren't doing so. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • And before 2019, the ICC and sources were using male as norm and not including men's in the name, so that's fine for those articles (which aren't listed here) to use that name. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:08, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand and respect your point. I am proposing this move in good faith. With that being said, the 2023 Cricket World Cup is named despite specific logo and official name branding as everyone just decided to follow usual convention.
    I feel that all the ICC tournaments and related articles should have similar naming, with us following a common name for the article. Maybe even remove the “ICC” from the name as well.
    The 2016 and before articles didnt have mens, 2021 and afterword do - we should keep one single convention and for that simply choose the common name. Its the same logic why the rcb page has its former name. @Joseph2302 Pharaoh496 (talk) 09:41, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia is not the arbiter of naming conventions for things it does not govern, the branding ICC uses includes the gender, therefore Wikipedia should do the same. TheDataStudent (talk) 00:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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