Talk:Gymnasium (Germany)

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Term Giftedness

The phrase The Gymnasium is the classical higher or secondary schools of Germany for gifted students. is misleading. The majority of pupils in a Gymnasium are not gifted, but merely future academics. The mean IQ of these pupils is around 115 being far below 140 which is considered the minimum score of gifted individuals.

I agree. Gymnasium is not a school for gifted students, but one for children who are good at studying. Gymnasien do not choose their pupils by IQ -tests (actually very few Germans know their IQ-tests-scores). Instead they are chosen by teachers reports and sometimes by examination. Oh, and by the way one has to be careful interpreting german IQ-test scores. The standard deviation used in German IQ-test may be 10 or 15 or 10 or 20 (depends one the test you choose). So 115 does not tell you anything unless you know the test, which was chosen.
The question is, what does "gifted" mean. I guess many contributors to the article may be Germans, who won't know. I don't know either. I have learnt in school that gifted means "begabt" or talented. This is no IQ-specific thing; it usually means that someone is above average in performance ("good at studying", not IQ). It need not even necessarily mean that; people are eager these days to find out some giftedness in everybody (which is a good thing), or decree par ordre du mufti that everyone is gifted (which, as it only leads to [self-]censorship of thoughts without changing a thing, is a bad thing). A Hauptschüler is, by ideal, a gifted handicrafter. A gymnasiast is gifted in more spiritual things. He is a future academic. I do not expect you can make it through universities without being gifted, though. It may not be rocket science but at least it is social science.
The technical term for one above 130 (not 140) IQ is "hochbegabt". A Gymnasium is not a school for hochbegabte students, although you would expect its students to excel a bit in IQ also. I once had a classmate who did an IQ test after malperformance in school (after making it through 4 years of it), and, upon finding out it was 93, chose to leave school. Otherwise he might in fact have chosen differently.--217.251.78.118 (talk) 14:46, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Abitur

I just removed from the lead some material about the Abitur, which seemed confusing. It read: After 9 years the students pass an exam, called Abitur in Germany. Nowadays there has been a strong political movement to reduce the time spent at the Gymnasium to 8 years in all of Germany since 2004. Since the 1970s it is possible to pass the exam Abitur at comprehensive schools in Germany after 9 years of education. Nowadays it is still possible to spent 9 years' time until the Abitur at those comprehensive schools, known as Gesamtschule, in Germany.

It wasn't clear to me why the information was present: could someone with knowledge of the system clarify

  1. Whether Gymnasium students sit the Abitur at the same age as Gesamtschule students;
  2. Whether this has recently changed/will recently change?

Gonzonoir (talk) 22:28, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First of all thanks a lot for correcting the article.
I did not write that sentence, but I will try to explain. This is really complicated, because responsibility for German education system lies primarily with the Bundesländer (states) while the federal government only has a minor role. So
  1. In some of the Bundesländer, the Gymnasium-students graduated after 12 years of schooling ever since Gymnasiums were founded. In some of the Bundesländer they used to graduate after 13 years and are graduating after 12 years of schooling now and in some of the Bundesländer they still graduate after 13 years, but this will change soon
  2. those, who visit a comprehensive, sometimes graduate after 12 and sometimes after 13 years
  3. there are several other ways to college, such as the Stadtteilschule, where students graduate after 13 years
I think our system is really complicated and we should probabaly focus only on the Gymnasien in this article.-- 212.201.82.47 (talk) 14:55, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some other stuff

You changed "some Gymnasien are private institutions" to "some Gymnasien are established by secular private institutions". I think we got lost in translation here. I think the one, who wrote this meant the schools to be the institution. In Germany we refer to schools as "institutions" and as far as I know the founders sometimes were institutions, sometimes they were philantrophist and sometimes they were a group of wealthy parents, but I really do not know that much about private schools. May be someone else would like to comment on this. I used that word institutions, when talking about Josef Kraus, who said The German Gymnasien "ranked among the finest institutions in the world". So I am not sure if I translated that right. What Kraus said was that in his opinion the German Gymnasien "ranked among the finest schools worldwide", but to me this sentence ("ranked among the finest schools worldwide") sounded funny. Yet I am not a native speaker. How does it sound to you?

There is a paragraph that now reads "Most Gymnasien offer a number of social and academic clubs, offering chess, photography, improv, debating, yearbook, environmentalism, and choirs". Again I do not know if we got lost in translation here. The Gymnasien do not always offer the same clubs. They do not always offer "chess, photography, improv, debating, yearbook, environmentalism, and choirs". That'S stuff which is very common, but some may offer different clubs. So I guess that is very similiar to the UK or the USA where (according to what I know) schools often offer a variety of clubs, but not always the same ones. .-- 212.201.82.47 (talk) 15:56, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Education of teachers

Gymnasien are the only schools in Germany that require teachers to be university educated. The teachers of primary schools, Hauptschulen, Realschulen and comprehensive schools are often not university graduates, but have qualified at "Pädagogische Hochschulen" ("Teachers' highschools"/"Teachers' college").

Though not being wrong, it seems to me that this statement is imprecise.

First, only one of the 16 German Bundesländer still maintains those Pädagogische Hochschulen, all the others having abolished them in favour of university courses for all teachers (cf. the German article on Pädagogische Hochschulen).

What's more, I do not think that the translation "Teacher's highschool" is correct for the remaining Pädagogische Hochschulen as their position in the German educational system is in many ways comparable to the position of universities. To mention one example, Pädagogische Hochschulen are allowed to award doctorates ("PhD"s) in educational science to their students, which a high school could not (cf. for instance the web site of the Pädagogische Hochschule in Karlsruhe)

In conclusion, my proposal is that this section of the article be specified.

Best regards, --Mg22 (talk) 13:28, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this should be specified. However I think that it is still true that many schools other than Gymnasium still have teachers, which did not qualify at a university and do not hold the Abitur and thgey definetly still teach there. I actually have relatives, who are teachers and do not hold the Abitur and never went to university and many of their co-workers are in the same position. They live in the State of Nordrhein-Westfalen. I think it is really rare for an older teacher of the Grundschule or Hauptschule to have graduated from university in this State.
I think "Pädagogische Hochschule" could also be translated with "teachers college". "Teachers high school" is the most literal translation as "hoch" means high and "Schule" means "school" in Germany, but may be that translation does not make much sense.
I think it should be called "teachers college", but not university, because they still do have different entrance requirements [1], also lectures are hold in a different style. In case of the universities lectures are more scientific, in case of the Pädagogische Hochschule they are more "hands on".
However I am not an expert on "education of teachers". So what would you like to write?-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 14:32, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again,
  • It is true that "high school" is the most literal translation of "Hochschule", but I do not consider it senseful to use it in this context because most readers of this article will probably think of the American high schools when reading the term "teachers' high school" which is very different to a Pädagogische Hochschule, as the Pädagogische Hochschulen are part of Higher Education whereas high schools as found in the US are part of Secondary Education. Many German books for English learners even list "high school" as a typical Faux ami.
I'm not quite certain how to translate it better myself, so I'm kindly asking for proposals. However, "teachers' college" is already a more precise option. The Pädagogische Hochschulen themselves seem to use the English term "University of Education" [2], which does not facilitate the finding of an appropriate translation as this does not mean, as you pointed out correctly, that they are completely the same as German Universitäten.
  • I'm not sure that "(...) it is really rare for an older teacher of the Grundschule or Hauptschule to have graduated from university in this State (...)". I doubt that because as the German article tells us, the process of abolishing the Pädagogische Hochschulen already began in the sixties and it tells us that the last Pädagogische Hochschulen of North-Rhine-Westphalia disappeared in the early eighties (refer to section "Ehemalige Pädagogische Hochschulen in Nordrhein-Westfalen" of that article). What's more, I think that many of those who attended the PHs in fact do hold the Abitur, although there might be exceptions. But it is certainly right that there is still a respectable amount of active teachers all over Germany who hold a PH degree rather than a university degree.
  • Moreover, the Pädagogischen Hochschulen in general require you to hold a "Allgemeine Hochschulzugangsberechtigung" (i.e. the Abitur) or a "Fachgebundene Hochschulreife" (which is comparable to the Abitur, but which is not valid for all degree programmes) source(pdf). The same holds true for the Universitäten, as far as I know. However, entrance requirements in Germany are a very complex and confusing matter, so I do not want to claim to have a complete overview here ;)
Once again best regards, --Mg22 (talk) 16:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I changed "teachers high school" to "teachers college". Of course I do not know every teacher in Nordrhein-Westfalen, but the older ones I know did not graduate from Universität and do not hold the Abitur. So i think it is safe to assume that it it is possible to teach Grundschule or Hauptschule without qualifying at a university. We do not have to make a statement about what percentage of Grundschule teachers really did not attend University.
and as far as I know a Gymnasium teacher always has to qualify at the Universität. There is no exeption from this rule as far as I know. Would you agree? (I also think that the education of Gymnasium teachers differs from that of other teachers, because it focuses less on pedagogic and more on the subject they want to teach. But I did not include this because I have no data on this and thus am not sure if it is just my personal point of view. However I would like to know how you think about this.)
Regards Greatgreenwhale (talk) 17:36, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi again. Yes, I fully agree that we can assume with certitude that it is possible to teach at a Grundschule or a Hauptschule without having graduated from university but we should also assume that the majority of teachers entering in that profession today consists of university graduates - including teachers at Grundschulen and Hauptschulen. You are also right saying that the university courses for Gymnasium teachers differ from those for the other teachers as the latter concentrate more on pedagogy and didactics. So it might be beneficial if we added some basic information on how Gymnasium teachers are educated. I had a go at it and drafted an additional section for the article which reads as follows:
In general, to obtain a teaching degree for Gymnasien, prospective teachers have to study at least two subjects which are part of the curriculum of the Gymnasien at a German university. Some also decide to study three subjects or more. In adition, the university programmes for teachers always include lectures on educational sciences and didactics. After nine semesters or more spent at university, students have to pass the so-called "Erstes Staatsexamen" (first state examination) which is roughly equivalent to a Master's degree and which marks the end of their academic training. However, having passed the Erste Staatsexamen does not authorize someone to become a teacher at once. The Erste Staatsexamen is followed by the "Referendariat" (internship) which normally lasts two years. During this time, the "Referendare" (trainee teachers) gain practical teaching experience under the supervision of experienced colleagues. This phase is completed by the Zweite Staatsexamen (second state examination) which for the most part assesses the trainees' practical teaching ability. Those having succesfully completed both the first an the second state examination can then apply for employment at a Gymnasium.
However, the systems of teacher education differ among the Bundesländer, include exceptions and are not seldomly modified. One general trend is the abolishment of the first state examination in favour of Master of Education programmes. The second state examination is not affected by this development. (main source) Please feel free to comment on this draft!
In addition, I specified your change to the article a bit to underline that it is not common any more for Hauptschule teachers not to have graduated from university, albeit still possible. Best regards again, --Mg22 (talk) 22:13, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good :) -- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 15:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Canisius-Kolleg picture?

There has been a scandal at the Canisius-Kolleg Berlin. It seems that two teachers have sexually abused at least 17 boys Elite German school reports sexual abuse cases. Should the picture of the school still be in this article?-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 14:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Latin (and ancient Greek) as prerequisites for medical studies

While it is true that for some studies (like history, as far as I know) the "Latinum" is still required, this has been abandoned for medicine in favor of a "course of medical terminology" more than 40 years ago. Source: My own experience as med student & the bylaws of medical exams in Germany. This constant reference to medicine should be removed as it's more than dated...88.79.237.11 (talk) 01:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can vouch for this as far as at least some history "subdivisions" are concerned and will change accordingly, so we are on the safe side. --Echosmoke (talk) 16:05, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Modern languages

The German State of Berlin, where secondary education normally begins in the seventh year of schooling, has some specialised Gymnasia beginning with the fifth year which teach Latin or French as a primary foreign language.

This is not quite right. There are some schools in other bundesländer of Germany too where you can learn Latin in the fifth year (known as LateinPlus). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.91.41 (talk) 10:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

plural form

Why is the article using 'Gymnasia' as the plural form? It might be correct to pluralise the English word 'gymnasium' as 'gymnasia', but this isn't the English word (even if it is spelt the same). As it stands, the article is applying Greek rules to a German word being used in an English context. This just seems weird. Wouldn't it be better to either pluralise it like a standard English word, or to follow the standard German plural 'Gymnasien'? I'd also question whether it needs to be capitalised each time it occurs. German grammar does that, but this article isn't written in German. Hengler (talk) 07:31, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I think Gymnasien should be used.--Greatgreenwhale (talk) 10:21, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Stumbled upon this again. Since this has been here for months and nobody's objected, I'm going to go ahead and do it. Hengler (talk) 19:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I put them all to 'gymnasien'. Using the native form from German seemed more reasonable than inventing an English one or using the plural of an English word which happens to be spelt the same but means something entirely different. Lower-case used because we're still speaking English, even if it is a German word. Exceptions made where it was being used as a German proper noun. Hengler (talk) 19:47, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They're all 'gymnasia' again; oughtn't they be changed? I get why some would object to 'gymnasien' (even though people love to do that with other foreign plurals), but then shouldn't we go with 'gymnasiums'? It's not a Latin word (that is, we're referring to a German concept and using the German word for it), and it does not pluralise in the Latinate way in German. To use 'gymnasia' is bizarre. -Coreydragon (talk) 02:54, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just use the word high school(s) - it is the actual translation of the german "Gymnasium", which has no connotation to the palaestra[/exercise ground for gymnastics, a building for sports with an arena] that is called in english gymnasium since the 1590s.

The whole "Gymnasia or Gymnasium" issue is ridiculous, even bizarre.77.0.23.171 (talk) 08:23, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Letters of recommendation?

I'm a bit puzzled about the claim that "In some cases, students need a certain grade point average in order to apply to gymnasium. In most cases, students applying to a gymnasium nominally need a letter of recommendation written by the primary school teacher". I suspect that "letter of recommendation" might be an inaccurate translation of the German "Lehrerempfehlung" , literally "teacher's recommendation". In my personal experience (at the moment 12th grade in Bavaria) and according to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehrerempfehlung , the teachers' influence on a pupil's choice of school type is much more limited than than the constant referral to "letters of recommendation" in this article suggests. The German wiki tells me that in only 6 Bundesländer the primary school has any say here (Bavaria, Thuringia, Baden-Württemberg, Saxony, Bremen, Brandenburg), and in all of these the recommendation primarily depends on a certain grade average in the "Übertrittszeugnis", the school report at the end of the last year of primary school. Only if in this year the grade average is e.g. 2,5 while 2,33 would be required for Gymnasium, the primary school can make the difference by its assessment. In the majority of German states, it's solely the parents' choice what school they send their children to. That teacher's recommendation is rather an assessment by the teacher on whether it makes much sense for the less, say, "gifted" students to be sent to Realschule or Gymnasium, but normally this is only relevant in "border cases" as I mentioned above and for quite sure not "in most cases".

Therefore, I think that sentence in the "Admission" section should be turned around because, well, it's just not true as it is now. Perhaps a native speaker could be bothered to find a better translation for that "Lehrerempfehlung" for the rest of the article (teacher's recommendation doesn't sound really spot on to me). Especially in the sections about social differences etc. the article reads as though the teachers were responsible via their letters of recommendations for what school children may attend or not, which in the great majority of cases they are not - as I said, that's only the case in the federal states with concrete grade thresholds, and there only when the pupil's grades are quite close to that threshold. In most cases, it's either the parents' decision or depends on the student's grades which school type he/she may attend. It is however true that many teachers' opinions are somewhat unduly influenced by a pupil's social background in the critical cases where they are actually asked for that opinion, but these cases are the minority.

All this isn't a huge mistake, of course, but the article just struck me as a bit inaccurate on that particular matter.79.247.7.199 (talk) 15:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In some States of Germany they need this Lehrempfehlung ("letter of recommendation", "teacher recommendation"? what would be a better word?), while in other they do not. I think the German system of education is very complicated.--Greatgreenwhale (talk) 07:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I made some changes. Can you check them? --Greatgreenwhale (talk) 07:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have yet to learn about a practical case where a student was not admitted by lack of recommendation while he did make the demanded grades (an average of 2.0 in German and Math and at least a 3 in Multiarea Specific Knowledges [trying to translate Heimat- und Sachkunde]). And all students who lack the grades and/or the recommendation can still be admitted by an entrance exam.--151.100.102.129 (talk) 15:57, 9 December 2013 (UTC) (Bavarian background)[reply]

Corporal punishment

Was there really corporal punishment in the Gymnasium until 1973? I used to think that corporal punishment was for "obligation schools" (elementary and Hauptschule); a gymnasiast is by definition one who goes voluntarily to school (his sort of school, and does more for school, etc.). Hence, while there was a Karzer (some hours' jail), I thought that a Gymnasium would rather expel the student than punish him corporally...? --2001:4CA0:2FFF:1:0:0:0:8B (talk) 17:21, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Subjects

How the students study so many subjects? 119.30.35.161 (talk) 10:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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