Talk:Battle of Marinka (2022–2023)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Change back to 'Battle of Marinka'

I don't agree with designating the fighting in Marinka as a siege. A classic siege would mean the entire settlement is cut off from supplies in all directions and there are no indicators as of today that all the roads leading into Marinka are cut off or controlled by Russian forces. I will stand corrected if there are sources that do suggest that Marinka is cut off, but I don't believe this to be the case. DeepCriticalThinking (talk) 12:40, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Fully agreed. I can't find any source describing it as a siege. Jebiguess (talk) 14:32, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 26 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 (talk) 00:42, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Marinka (2022–2023) → Battle of Marinka (2022–present) – Based on when the United States was involved in the war in Afghanistan, the Wikipedia article reads (2001–present), since the battle is still ongoing, it should be read as Battle of Marinka (2022–present) because readers will compare that article to They get the wrong conclusion that the battle is over. Parham wiki (talk) 23:38, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Support. It more clearly conveys the fact the battle is not ended (CRITERIA of recognizability and precision), and per the proposal better satisfies the WP:CRITERION of consistency. —Michael Z. 17:21, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
Obvious support matches other articles. 90.255.6.219 (talk) 08:42, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Battle over?

As far as I can tell, Marinka was fully captured by Russia on December 12. Unless I'm mistaken, the infobox should be changed to the battle ended on "12 December 2023," not "present." AmericanBaath (talk) 11:46, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

It seems like there's still a small section of land on the northwestern outskirts of Marinka (north of the reservoir) that's either Ukrainian controlled or grayzone (because it's open area without cover). It remains to be seen if Marinka will indeed be officially/overwhelmingly considered captured without technically controlling 100% of it (as in Bakhmut where the dacha area on the southwestern edge of the city was grayzone for a long time due to similar reasons). I think we should wait a few more days until the information consolidates. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:01, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
  • This video made by the Austrian colonel confirms that the Russians have fully captured Marinka. He states it at around 22:25. Can't get more credible than a member of the Austrian Bundeswehr. 42Grunt (talk) 08:01, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
    He said "capture pretty much". We all know that there's less than 2% left. But it seems sources are waiting for it to be 100% cleared, which should happen soon, to officialize the capture and end date. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
    I agree with 2 per cent remaining which is fields and not actual city . At the same time Avdiivka is not under 100 p.c. Ukrainian control but is not pointed as contested... At least we should follow one rule 46.198.236.112 (talk) 18:02, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
    I later checked the ISW map and indeed there's still a single urban street left to capture, thus still urban perimeter. On the other hand, Avdiivka is marked as contested, so I don't know what you're talking about. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:50, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Well...no Avdiivka is not marked as contested Template:Russo-Ukrainian_War_detailed_map — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.198.236.112 (talk) 18:37, 17 December 2023 (UTC) Also, Klishiivka, Novomykhailovka are no marked as contested... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.198.236.112 (talk) 18:40, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

You're right, the map needs to be updated. Well, at least the settlements list is up to date. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 23:47, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
  • According to most recent ISW report [1], Russian sources claimed on December 15 and 16 that Russian forces advanced ... on the northwestern outskirts of Marinka ... The Ukrainian General Staff reported that Russian forces unsuccessfully attacked near Marinka ..." Hence no, the city was not taken yet. But even if were, the battle would continue. My very best wishes (talk) 01:26, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
    But even if were, the battle would continue. Please don't man. There is no simultaneous Ukrainian counteroffensive happening on the flanks of Marinka to even justify the contemplation of extending the scope. The battle of Bakhmut might have been an oddity, but this battle is a plain and simple "capture and victory" battle, it's already long enough... Alexis Coutinho (talk) 04:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Status of the Battle of Marinka

Is there a possibility of changing status of the Battle of Marinka from ongoing to Russian Victory or do we need to wait for Western or Ukrainian sources to confirm it? LegendaryChristopher (talk) 16:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Russian sources are unreliable, so yes, we do have to wait. 72.229.242.36 (talk) 17:06, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I agree Russian sources aren't reliable but that doesn't mean Western or Ukrainian aren't too. That's why I perfer to see geolocation proof when it comes to confrim any gains claims rather taken someone's words. There is geolaction proof of Russian Forces taken the remaining parts of Marinka that was under Ukrainian control but there might be some cleaning up ongoing, so maybe we will be able to 100% confirm it in the upcoming days. LegendaryChristopher (talk) 17:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I'd say that Russian sources are even less reliable, for some of the bogus claims that they made up over the course of this war. 72.229.242.36 (talk) 17:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Understandable, but that doesn't mean we should wait for western or Ukrainian sources to confirm something . That's why like I said previously I resort to using geolocation proof for any claims LegendaryChristopher (talk) 17:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Germans never confirmed loss of Normandy. This does not mean WW2 is not over. I think we should go with geolocation rather than who confirms what. Just my 2 cents.
162.221.125.217 (talk) 18:25, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Just don't use social media as a source, they are not a reliable source. Instead, you should probably wait for ISW to verify it, or some other news source that is considered reliable. 72.229.242.36 (talk) 18:50, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Isw is reliable source? From when? Kanikosen (talk) 00:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
ISW has pretty much always been reliable regarding territorial changes. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:15, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Week after Ukraine lose something and you can't hide event any more. Hardly reliable. Kanikosen (talk) 14:34, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
It took them months to recognize the capture of Serhiivka by Russia. They only did it after geolocated evidence. I think that's pretty responsible. Besides, the prominent Russian military journalist Rybar already explained that Ukraine still controls parts of the city. See the link below. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 17:13, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
ISW is totally an unreliable site. This organization is known to parrot Ukrainian propaganda and spread as much news negative to the Russians as possible. Elias Ziad (talk) 22:45, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
It's biased, which doesn't necessarily mean unreliable. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 03:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
Russian sources are somewhat more reliable than Ukrainian delusions and propaganda. Elias Ziad (talk) 22:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Ukrainian forces still control the northwest of the city https://t.me/rybar/54645. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:19, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
"Russian sources are unreliable" and what? Ukrainian sources are reliable to you? Russian sources are much more reliable than Ukrainian sources, which gets quoted a lot in wikipedia. Elias Ziad (talk) 22:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Marinka is captured, deal with it... Im neutral but this avoiding of facts its silly and irresponsible... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.188.242.172 (talk) 21:12, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Editorial War (start 17 March, not 20 February 2022)

Not a single bullet or grenade was fired on February 20 at Marinkа, and even if maybe one bullet was fired, it does not mean that the battle has started because it was the front line. The systematic bombing of Marinka began on March 17, 2022, three days after the Ukrainian missile attack on Donetsk. From that day on, there was no break in the fighting as the Russian aviation began terrifying airstrikes that razed the place to the ground. The thesis about February 20 is nonsense and stop it so that the editorial war does not start. — Baba Mica (talk) 19:23, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

The tweet you listed as the start date doesn't list a source, and the only March 17 source is a Russian MoD tweet from that date mentioning Marinka that stuck around on Wikipedia for a while because we did not have a start date. Disregarding the unreliability of the Russian MoD in these occasions, it seems March 17 was a date Wikipedia editors retconned into existence.
OSCE mentions shelling intensifying in Marinka leading up to February 24, and shelling in the direction of Marinka on February 25. Something was obviously happening in Marinka at the time of the full-scale invasion, it makes no sense for everywhere on the frontline sans Marinka to see intense fighting. What likely happened is that nobody was able to record fighting in Marinka because OSCE and journalists moved westward. I don't think there's any exclusive source saying "the battle of Marinka started at this date" that doesn't lead back to Wiki. Jebiguess (talk) 16:54, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
It is important that intense fighting began. Then the 24th or 25th of February are in question as the start dates of the battle, but before the 24th of February it is not 100%. Avdiyevka is, but Marinka is not. —
Baba Mica (talk) 20:46, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
The Marinka battle had its highs and lows, so I don't think adopting "intense fighting" as a cutoff is automatically a good idea. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 08:36, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

It's over https://www.novinite.com/articles/222979/Marinka+Has+Fallen+To+The+Russians

The batle concluded even as per pro-Ukrainian sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.198.236.112 (talk) 22:33, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Seems like it.[2] Alexis Coutinho (talk) 22:44, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2023

I request that status of the Battle of Marinka be changed from ongoing to Russian Victory now that it has been confirmed of the settlement capture by Russian forces. 32.209.87.44 (talk) 19:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Source? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 15:27, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Title

I changed the title of the page since now the battle is over but I was thinking of instead of the title being the battle for Marinka (2022 - 2023) it will be better to change it to the Second Battle of Marinka since according to ukrainians then been at war with Russia since 2014 and going by their logic that means the first battle of Marinka happened in 2015 so that means the current one that just happened should be considered the Second Battle of Marinka. I don't want to change it again without the consideration of the rest of the community. LegendaryChristopher (talk) 18:49, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Technically, the real first battle of Marinka was in 2014 - check out the Marinka page for details. I think we should stick with the year-based titling for now. HappyWith (talk) 20:19, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Years in dates

Several dates in the article have been included without the year.

e.g. “Prelude” events in February 2022 86.2.132.201 (talk) 10:56, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I think most of this is fixed now - years are added for basically every possible ambiguous date. Feel free to follow up if you notice any more of this. HappyWith (talk) 20:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

These footages should definitely prove the battle is over, although no date is given

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/18qkscb/ru_pov_footage_of_the_last_battles_for_marinka/

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/18qktba/ru_pov_russian_soldiers_display_the_flag_of_their/

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/18qkl14

45.74.78.11 (talk) 16:30, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

👍 Judging from the tweet from the previous section, those drone videos were recorded yesterday and published today. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:17, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Whether this is true or not, Reddit can't be used as a source on WP. IMO if this is good info, it is a matter of time for when this gets picked up by actual media sources. There's no deadline to put this in. HappyWith (talk) 20:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
You are a joke editor. You literally can't accept a source unless it's from Western media or Ukrainian state media. It's so pathetic that you have a clear biasness and an agenda. The battle is over, no matter what you say. There's geolocation footage to prove this which is more reliable than words from either side of the conflict. LegendaryChristopher (talk) 20:22, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Bruh, it's literally Reddit. It's not my bias to consider that unreliable, it's obvious Wikipedia policy. Also, I laughed when I saw the "you are a joke editor" part, but please read WP:NPA, because that's really not acceptable. HappyWith (talk) 20:27, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
But those weren't cited. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:12, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
I know, I was objecting to them being used as evidence, as the original IP was seemingly proposing. HappyWith (talk) 21:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Using Geolocation footage as source

I believe that the use of geolocation footage to prove any claims should be acceptable especially since both side of the conflict is unwilling to admit the reality of any situation in the conflict especially if it's the Ukrainian side who keep denying the capture of Bakhmut and Marinka which geolocation footage have showed as being fully captured by Russian forces. It's unfair to have to wait to confirm any claims because a specific source hasn't reported it especially if that sources has a biasness such ISW which is a neoconservative think tank and Pro-Ukraine, making it a unacceptable sources. Hopefully my suggestion is noted so we have a easier time confirming any claims without having to wait for one side to accept it a month later. LegendaryChristopher (talk) 03:22, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  • If even Deepstate UA also states that most of Marinka has been captured. It is a foregone conclusion. Even in those few pockets still listed as unknown, it is pretty obvious on where their fate lies if one were to geolocate the most recent videos. Credible news sites such as SBS and Barron's also confirm reporting of both Russian and Ukrainian claims. As seen here and here. Of course, the only ones denying this are Ukrainian 'news' sources. But like Russian 'news' sources, the Ukrainian ones are worth equally as much as toilet paper. It is within the interests of Ukraine to deny such a defeat. So of course they will deny it and do all sorts of excuses and semantic arguments to stretch whatever definition of defeat or 'stalemate' as best as possible. And it is within the interests of the Russians to do the opposite. This starts to fail, when the physical evidence are so overwhelming to one side, that any sorts of denialism would be akin to face saving. And in this instance, we simply have more Russian videos being geolocated than Ukrainian ones, which should tell you something. If we want to discount geolocation footage or news articles, than the only thing we can confirm is analyst maps. And in that case, even the very 'best' case scenario for Ukraine is that Ukraine WILL STILL lose Marinka very soon. No ifs and no buts. To state otherwise would be moving goal posts and scraping the bottom of the barrel of pure copium. 42Grunt (talk) 08:12, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Pretty confident the next ISW report will settle this and end the media outlets' current behavior of playing dumb and blindly ignoring the geolocated footage. Shame that they didn't release one yesterday. Hopefully we'll only need to wait a few more hours for a definitive answer. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
  • I have been skeptical of ISW ever since they contributed to the awful rise of the Russian 'shovel' memes and 'tactical bushes' debacle. But if ISW is needed to be the final nail for the confirmation, than I shall follow your advice and wait for the settlement. 42Grunt (talk) 13:21, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

end date should be 2023-12-24

According to this tweet the last Ukrainian position fell on 2023-12-24.

https://twitter.com/elysium0883/status/1738976955385409804

136.143.211.2 (talk) 19:45, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

A tweet is not the best source. Lets see if this gets picked up by papers. Smeagol 17 (talk) 20:30, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
According to Suriyak maps, combing operations are still ongoing. There were a couple of streets next to the reservoir that were under Ukrainian control until now. 2601:85:C100:46C0:58AA:2F69:9EE4:459C (talk) 21:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
WP:SELFPUBLISHED. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 13:57, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Russian MoD made official announcement today. Marinka will finally rest. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 17:32, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done We still need to find better sources though. Hopefully today's ISW report won't take long. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:40, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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