Talk:Autism spectrum

Frequency

This is described as "1 in 100 children". Autistic children grow into autistic adults so surely "1 in 100" is more accurate. Polymath uk (talk) 21:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

that could be the case but Wikipedia should not reach any conclusion that isn't explicitly stated by the sources. The source for that statement is this fact statement by the UN: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/autism-spectrum-disorderswhich clearly says "About 1 in 100 children has autism."

You can read more about this policy in WP:SYNTH and WP:NOR Theaxeisaxe (talk) 11:18, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

"About 1 in 100 children has autism." I did not realize that it was relatively rare. Does the source provide any statistical data? Dimadick (talk) 22:33, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

My brother in Christ, it is in the link that he sent Eldaniay (talk) 03:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Differences vs. Deficits

Recent changes included language to highlight that autistic people show differences in "reciprocal social communication [...,] social interaction, verbal and nonverbal communication", though this change was reverted because it was "POV writing". Personally, I would argue that "differences" has a lesser perspective than "deficits", which places a judgment on how people should communicate, indicating that autistic people communicate poorly. Proponents of the neurodiversity paradigm have argued against such deficit language for multiple reasons. On the other hand, nobody is arguing that there are differences in communication styles between autistic and non-autistic people. As such, wouldn't using the word "deficit" instead of "difference" have more POV issues than vice versa? (ping @ATC) Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 16:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Autism is mainly characterized by difficulties with social interaction (and communication and by restricted or repetitive patterns of thought and behavior). In DSM-5 it is,

Diagnostic Criteria for 299.00 Autism Spectrum Disorder

To meet diagnostic criteria for ASD according to DSM-5, a child must have persistent deficits in each of three areas of social communication and interaction (see A.1. through A.3. below) plus at least two of four types of restricted, repetitive behaviors (see B.1. through B.4. below).

• Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
  • Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
  • Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
  • Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.

— https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html

While I generally sympathize with the proponents of neurodiversity, I think we should adhere to WP:NPOV in Wikipedia and state what the medical literature actually characterizes autism as. Changing definitions for perceived judgment or stigmatization is not a valid reason. --WikiLinuz (talk) 20:20, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

WikiLinuz: The DSM is utilized specifically to identify disorders and medical conditions. If this page were titled "Autism spectrum disorder", then it would be understandable to state, "The DSM utilizes the following criteria to diagnose ASD".

However, this is a general page to describe autism, which many people do not see as a medical diagnosis but rather as a way of being. For instance, one autistic scholar defines autism as "a genetically-based human neurological variant" that is "characterized by particularly high levels of synaptic connectivity and responsiveness", which "tends to make the autistic individual’s subjective experience more intense and chaotic than that of non-autistic individuals". She further states, "Autism is a developmental phenomenon, meaning that it begins in utero and has a pervasive influence on development, on multiple levels, throughout the lifespan. Autism produces distinctive, atypical ways of thinking, moving, interaction, and sensory and cognitive processing" (Walker, 2021, "What is Autism?").

I'm not indicating that the entire page needs to be written from the perspective of the neurodiversity paradigm; that would, after all, be a POV problem. However, the first paragraph is currently written in alignment with pathology paradigms that purely view autism as a medical diagnosis. If we're trying to be neutral, I think it would be beneficial to use a more neutral, less judgmental term when describing what autism is. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 21:41, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Basically, as Walker concludes, "To describe autism as a disorder represents a value judgment rather than a scientific fact." Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 22:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Difficulties = deficits. The core features (psychological phenotypes) of an individual on the autism spectrum are still social challenges (aka deficits). It's not as if autistic individuals would have no difficulty communicating with other autistic individuals and only have difficulty when communicating with non-autistic individuals (some argue maybe to a lesser extent, but that's not relevant here). [...] view autism as a medical diagnosis - Autism is still a diagnosed condition, meaning only a trained medical professional can "tell" (that is, diagnose) whether a person is autistic or not, which makes it, a medical diagnosis. After the diagnosis, they can view their condition/difficulties/traits as a difference (as in, part of neurodiversity and self-acceptance) or deficit (seek accommodations and therapies (Autism therapies) on areas that affect their functioning) - but that doesn't affect the fact that the condition itself is diagnosed using certain parameters of social deficits (mainly) and other traits. WP:SUBJECT of this article is about a neurodevelopmental disorder. It is recognized as a developmental disability in many countries (such as Canada, United States, UK, etc.). And why exactly should Walker's opinion be given undue weight here? Are you quoting from a peer-reviewed publication? --WikiLinuz (talk) 00:12, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Walker's definition has been provided as a definition of autism that does not view it through the medical model. This definition has been used in peer-reviewed sources (e.g., [1], [2]). To address some of your points:

1. It's not as if autistic individuals would have no difficulty communicating with other autistic individuals and only have difficulty when communicating with non-autistic individuals. On this Wikipedia page, we have provided evidence that "autistic–autistic interactions are as effective in information transfer as interactions between non-autistics are, and that communication breaks down only between autistics and non-autistics". That is, autistic individuals communicate with other autistic individuals fine. Autistic individuals can also have great conversations with non-autistic people.

2. Only a trained medical professional can "tell" (that is, diagnose) whether a person is autistic or not. Even the American Psychiatric Association recognizes that medical practitioners often fail to diagnose people, particularly women and people of color (see also [3], [4]). They're still autistic regardless of whether a doctor can figure it out. This is of particular issue for individuals who can function in a society and thus, don't display the typical "deficits". It doesn't change how they process sensory inputs. This feels on par with saying someone is "cured" if therapies make it possible for someone to thrive. They're still autistic.

3. Once again, everyone agrees there are differences in communication, etc. Not everyone agrees about the language of deficit. "Difference" can mean deficit; it can also just mean doing things differently. As such, it feels to me like it would be more neutral to use the word "difference" than "deficit". Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 04:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Studies (like the one cited) focus specifically on "information transfer", which is a narrow aspect of communication. Autism is characterized by broader social communication deficits that go beyond mere exchanging information. Even if autistic individuals can share information more effectively with each other, they may still have difficulties with other aspects of social interactions, like for example, (1) reading and responding to non-verbal cues, (2) understanding and expressing emotions, (3) reciprocating in back-and-forth conversations, (4) maintaining appropriate eye contact and body language, etc. And autism is also a spectrum disorder, so while some autistic individuals may find communication easier with other autistic individuals, those with more severe social impairments may still struggle significantly, regardless of the communication partner's neurotype.

Again, the subject of the article is about a neurodevelopmental disorder which is clinically defined as deficits (as explained previosuly). Humanities or social sciences sources cannot be used to override medical definitions in these articles, as sources must meet WP:MEDRS (medical claims, that is, diagnostic criteria or presentation of a condition, must be sourced from medical sources). --WikiLinuz (talk) 17:02, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

To further add to this point, most neurodevelopmental and mental disorders, and learning disabilities, could be considered a "difference". For example, ADHD is a deficit in executive function. You could say that it's just differences in executive functioning, but on an objective scale, these impairments go beyond mere differences in executive functioning and represent deficits in abilities that are considered essential for adaptive functioning in the environment/modern society.

This applies to pretty much everything, anxiety disorders (differences in how individuals perceive threat), bipolar disorder (differences in how individuals experience and regulate their moods and energy levels), schizophrenia (differences in how individuals perceive and process reality), OCD (differences in how individuals experience intrusive thoughts and the urges to perform repetitive behaviors), etc.

These are of course differences, but these differences arise from a deficit (maladaptation). Which is why it is more accurate (and in-line with current medical literature) to use the word "deficit" instead of "difference". --WikiLinuz (talk) 20:34, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to change or remove the infobox image

Hi all. This is something I'd normally be bold about, but because there were two previous inconclusive discussions about this (1 and 2) and because I'm not sure what else I'd put, I'm proposing this here, hopefully with a defintive consensus. I feel like the current image is far from representative enough of ASD to be there and this is for multiple reasons. All children like (and are encouraged) to stack things up; a child stacking up objects in what could be a perfectly neurotypical situation is, to me, not the best image to be the most prominent one in the article. This trait feels way too specific in an article that's about a spectrum. Besides, this trait is far from the most significant, prevalent or relevant one for autism. The image could still be used in its context. Just not in the infobox.
There seems to be a consensus that "any image is better than no image", so the problem of what image to put in its place arises. Some of the previous propositions suggested using an image with an identifiable person, apparently violating Commons' rule that "Images must not unfairly (...) demean the subject". I feel like that's reasonable. So that leaves us with more generic images. File:Autistic Mind 2.png has been suggested. Me, I'd adopt the infinity rainbow. I think both are good choices.
I'm glad to head what people have to say about this. Let's try to reach a consensus this time because, to be honest, I feel like the current image is a really inadequate one. Rkieferbaum (talk) 18:32, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I do not support the use of File:Autistic Mind 2.png, as it is nothing more than clip art. The infinity rainbow seems like a good choice if you feel we absolutely must have an image. Mind you that in articles, and in infoboxes, images are not mandatory. If there is not a good image, there is no need to have a placeholder or unsatisfactory image. I do agree that the existing image is unsatisfactory, as it is, as you say, not necessarily indicative of a pathology. Kimen8 (talk) 19:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The File:Autistic Mind 2.png is not really useful in representing the condition. I agree that current image of a child stacking up stuff is not a good representation of autism (it is also potentially misleading and stereotyping).

It is very hard to find real-life or graphic representation for autism, unlike other conditions like bipolar disorder or anxiety disorder for example. But we could have a graphical representation of autism that lists core deficits seen in autism with varying "intensities" or "shades" (this is why the rainbow is commonly used).

So the idea is this, as per DSM-5, individuals with autism have difficulties in two main domains:

• A: Social communication and interaction difficulties
  • A1: Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity
  • A2: Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction
  • A3: Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships
• B: Restricted, Repetitive Patterns of Behavior, Interests, or Activities
  • B1: Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (example "lining up toys", echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases)
  • B2: Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior
  • B3: Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus
  • B4: Hyper- or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of the environment

To be diagnosed with ASD, the individual must exhibit both A and B, but they can have varying difficulties in the subset of criteria A1, A2, A3, and B1, B2, B3, B4.

For example, one person with autism may have severe social difficulties (let's say 0.8 on scale of 1 for A1, and 0.5 in A2, but may have 0 in A3) and for B, may have severe repetitive motions (say 0.8 for B1), sameness (0.7 on B2), but may or may not have other two criteria. Regardless, if they anyway meet A and B, it is generally sufficient.

So we can have each color for the two main domains with shades (representing intensities) and each color for the individual criteria within A and B, I think this is probably a better representation autism. A image that comes close to this representation that I could find on the internet are this and this. I'm not good in graphic design so someone else could create something similar and upload to commons. --WikiLinuz (talk) 22:51, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

List of Newsgroups Grouped By 'Autism Centricity'

Proposal: Add a section to "ASD in the media" that shows all historic and defunct organizations that cover autism and the many metrics that they can be 'graded' by.

Why? : Newsgroups that focus on covering ASD (or that spend a fraction of their time, money, and coverage on the topic of ASD) are a part of the media that we consume. Therefore, a page that is focused on "ASD in the media" is obliged to include a list documenting some of these organizations in some level of detail.

Definitions

'Austism Centricity': how focused a news organization is on the topic of ASD (for simplicity's sake, we could just include organizations that claim to focus on ASD or organizations that have a massive amount of content on ASD (comparative to the content they have on other topics) and have (or have had) a name that intentionally references some part of ASD (See spectrumnews.org as an example).

Newsgroup: any group that assumes/claims a role in the distribution of (factual) information (although it might be interesting to include and the amount of attention paid to ASD by satirical news networks)

Other Potential Solutions

- A wikipedia page/list of all groups that claim to 'dispense news', sorted by their primary foci and every other metric that we care to sort by.

- Another page that would categorize newsgroups by their coverage of and focus on ASD.

Thanks for reading this. This is my first time joining a talk channel on Wikipedia besides 2 minor edits I made on two other articles that I wanted to appends reasons for those edits to. I hope that this suggestion is decent and actionable, and that this did not read terribly. My reason for suggesting this was that I found this group called spectrumnews.org and their about page seemed pretty terrible. Naturally, I looked to Wikipedia for answers and was met with nothing but a linkless mention to this group in a disambiguation page for spectrum news.

If anything I wrote here was downright terrible, please feel free to let me know. If this falls into the category of original research, please let me know. Sorry if this was a bad 'idea commit'. In the case that this is a bad 'idea commit', please know that I did not intent for it to be so. Robitium (talk) 17:09, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Should “neurodevelopmental disorder and disability” be added?

Many sources, including the CDC and the National Autistic Society (UK), state it as such. It is also a disability from a medical and legal standpoint. PicoMath (talk) 00:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)