Talk:Alcohol intoxication/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Untitled

more articles should link to this, IMHO

Title

I'm not sure about the current title of this article. A more scientifically rigorous one might be, say alcohol intoxication or maybe intoxication (alcohol). Right now the article is an interesting mix of the physiology of intoxication as well as it's position in society (legal, religious etc.) At the moment the section on the physiology of the topic is rather short, but given the amount of research that's been done on stuff like this, I think it might be worth while to have an article with the one of the above suggested titles that would be about the medical condition (and merge Acute alcohol intoxication into that, and then leave Drunkenness as an article about intoxication's legal/social aspects. Ce1984 (talk) 01:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Inebrietaion is redirected here... since that implies 'drinking' rather that intoxication on substances introduced by other methods such as injection, inhalation or topical introduction, it could be a suitable title. Redirect 'drunk' and 'alcohol intoxication' to this possibly.McGootch (talk) 06:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Photo

is the photo really necessary? it doesn't illustrate anything nor enhance the meaning of the encyclopedia article.

I agree that the photo really doesn't contribute to the article. There is no proof this man is drunk. He might have any one of a myriad of other problems. He might just be exhausted for instance. There's got to be a better way to illustrate "Drunkenness". --Billywhack 11:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not ideal but I would prefer it to be reinstated until a better one can be provided. --Guinnog 02:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

How is one to actually put a signature on a picture of a drunk man/woman so to speak? Someone that looks drunk, possibly is drunk This then better defines characteristics of a peson that is really drunk.

Just a thought.

JoeyGWilliams 05:30PM, 02/08/06


The photograph has clearly been included so that one individual can claim to have their picture on Wikipedia under the drunkenness article. As others have stated, it does not contribute, nor clarify any of the information contained within the article and should therefore be deleted immediately.

A picture or image should only be added if it can be said to be informative in some way. This is Wikipedia, not Facebook. 86.130.63.91 (talk) 22:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

It IS informative. It shows a very drunk person continuing to do so. It works as an example of binge-drinking too.

Brain Chemistry

A well-known side effect of alcohol is the loosening it has on inhibitions. Alcohol makes neurons (nerve cells) much more permeable. This enables sodium ions, present in axons sprouting from nerve cells, to pass more easily out of cell membranes, negatively affecting the function of these cells.

Textbook I got the principle of this from didn't explain exactly *how* this affected the function of nerve cells. Do a large number of sodium ions stay out of the cell preventing nerve impulses, or do the sodium ions going outside the cell actually start an accidental impulse? -- sodium

I do not believe this is correct; it may not be worth closer investigation. -Ikkyu2 03:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

"This could be caused by heightened alpha brain waves surging across the brain. "

This is a large misnomer in my opinion. "brain waves" are hardly causal. People place far too much stock in the measurement of voltage across the head. This reveals so little information about what is actually happening to the neurons within. This probably should not even be talked about. --anon

Another one of alcohol's agreeable effects is body relaxation, possibly caused by heightened alpha brain waves surging across the brain. Alpha waves are observed (with the aid of EEGs) when the body is relaxed. Heightened pulses are thought to correspond to higher levels of enjoyment.

I agree with the above commenter; brain waves are not causal of anything. They are an electroencephalographic finding. Also, the stated correlation is not valid. If anything, alcohol's effect on the EEG is to increase the amount of beta activity, not to enhance the alpha rhythm.

After reading some of the comments here, it appears to me that this article is in need of major attention; correction of factual errors and removal of offensive and culturally insensitive text would be a good start. -Ikkyu2 03:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

"Alcohol sensitises the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) system of the brain, making it more receptive to the neurotransmitter glutamate."

It is my understanding that alcohol has NMDA antagonist properties, i.e. it blocks the activity of glutamate. See these links:

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:XSyN9utArUkJ:www.drugabuse.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVol15N2/Ketamine.html+ketamine+alcohol&hl=en

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:ver_y4flQ7UJ:www.third-plateau.org/faq/dxm_physiological.shtml+alcohol+site:third-plateau.org&hl=en

Cultural stereotypes

Some societies, such as those of Russia and Ireland, have cultural stereotypes associated with drunkenness--in such societies, the ability to drink vast quantities of alcohol without getting drunk is thought to be worthy of respect.

Time for national stereotypes: I was told once that there are countries/societies/subcultures where it is the length of time someone can refrain from going to the toilet rather than the quantity of alcohol itself that is "worthy of respect". Can anyone verify or falsify this? Obviously it's not very important -- I'm just curious. --KF 23:09 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

Why pick out Russia and Ireland?


Whiskey, guinness and vodka, of course! j/k

I believe you're referring to what I know as the 'Golden Seal'. In cultures where peeing is recognized as simply an occurence rather than a status, it's reference to the first time one has to urinate after beginning comsunption. The theory is that once you make your first trip to the bathroom, you will need to make subsequent trips more often. The major flaw is, urination is inevitible with mass liquid consumption. Basing frequency of trips on time between first drinking and first trip to the bathroom is ludicrious, as this can only be based on a physiologial trait like blader capacity or amount consumed and the timeframe in which it is done. That capacity won't be changed with the event of urination. For example... ever drink 1 or more cups of coffee before drinking? Or even water for that matter. Liquids have less nutrients and are passed through the body more rapidly. Urinating only affects the liquid that has already been processed by your system.

In terms of respect, its more of a fratboy ideaolgy that holding ones liquor is equivalent to manliness, or any other trait. It's dangerous to insinuate that that type of behaviour is required to earn respect, as if often leads to sickness, or worst case death.McGootch (talk) 06:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Slang

We don't need the "slangs" section, do we? The slangs are no links to articles, it's just word definition, all of it. :/ Delete that section. —Sverdrup(talk) 03:55, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Keep. Some of the terms redirect here. Also they are all colloquial terms for the state of drunkeness thus valid. quercus robur
Having a list of expressions that are used as synonyms of drunk was also the idea behind posting the Out of It book cover (which, however, was deleted on September 1, 2003). --KF 10:23, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I came to this article specifically looking for slang variations of "drunk", and had to trawl through the history. Helpful, much? Artiste-extraordinaire 02:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


I honestly believe that there should be a link to a separate Wikipedia entry for the numerous slang terms, particularly in the English language, for the state of drunkenness, an individual who is currently or often in such a state, and the places that such individuals go in order to attain such a state! If I need to write the article myself, I will.:::: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lhargrove (talk • contribs) 04:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Cam't that just be left to urban dictionary...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.77.188 (talk) 05:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Nothing in this section redirects anywhere. Should be removed.

Misc

Removed It can make ugly girls more hot, for example. Didn't seem like it would make sense in an encyclopedia. -Jeshii 14:30, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

i remember seeing on msns page that scientist proved that "beer goggles" (where a woman looks more attractive to a man) are a side affect of alchol. (by beer goggles i dont mean that plastic goggles that distort your vison) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.146.222 (talk) 02:44, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone think that the term high when talking about drugs shouldnt redirect here? alchohol isnt the only cause of being high

My only counter argument is that alcohol is a 'downer'.

Seems to me that the last bit about the Ancient Greek superstition doesn't really fit in with the sort of information presented by the rest of the article. But you'll have to pardon me if it DOES fit in, and my brain just isn't working properly- I've been doing shots of tequila all night, so...--Deridolus 08:25, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I have trouble with the title.

How many contributors to this talk page are drunk at the time of their post. Now thats a stastic i'd love to see! —Preceding unsigned comment added by McGootch (talk • contribs) 06:27, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Dosage

It would be convenient if this article listed different stages of intoxication and how much ethanol per kg body weight constituted each stage. As a tee-totaler I am ineligible to provide this information. = ) But it would be useful nonetheless. I think I saw some kind of table with this info in an AMA publication once, but I may be mistaken. Jeeves 12:10, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree: Wikipedia is *not* a medical dictionary, but neither this article nor alcoholism gives a description suitable for the general observer (as you and I are (g)), story writer and "persons concerned about people they know". At what stage does "regularly becoming drunk" shade into alcoholism? 212.85.6.26 16:28, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, alcohol comsumption is based on personal statistics like metabolism, weight, tolerance, etc. It's virtually impossible to gauge intoxication in any way other that a breathalyzer or blood test. Affectation is unique to the consumer.McGootch (talk) 06:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Medical pointers

An improvement to this article is basic* medical treatment of intoxicated persons. Basic warning signs when to cut off, recovery position, reasonable vital signs, and when to call an emergency response team. -GChriss

Another improvement would invovle archiving the chemistry and biology involved in achieving the state of drunkenness, the processes involved in detoxification, and the physiological consequences of drunkenness. I'm astounded that there is no science in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.95.200 (talk) 13:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I was led to believe there is in fact a chemical formula for alcohol intoxication... it'll be here as soon as (read:if) I can find it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by McGootch (talk • contribs) 06:29, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The management section needs rewriting. It reads as a complete checklist but is inaccurate and incomplete - UK doctor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.26.87.10 (talk) 20:44, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Uncited Research

Behavioural changes associated with drunkenness are, to some degree, contextual. A scientific study found that people drinking in a social setting significantly and dramatically altered their behaviour immediately after the first sip of alcohol, well before the chemical itself could have filtered through to the nervous system. Likewise, people consuming non-alcoholic drinks often exhibit drunk-like behavior on a par with their alcohol-drinking companions even though their own drinks contained no alcohol whatsoever.

I've seen this same language used in a number of articles online, but it's never accompanied by a reference. Does anyone know when/where this study was conducted, or have a link to information on it online? Seems very relevant.

Psychosematic symptoms can appear even before comsumption in the right atmosphere. Theres also the urban legend of swapping out non-alchoholic beer unbeknownst to drinkers having similar though less intense results. —Preceding unsigned comment added by McGootch (talk • contribs) 06:24, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Symptoms of drunkennes

What exactly are they (g): as with the related article on alcoholism all technical and no general description (eg the general change from "pleasantly relaxed" to "falling down drunk") - and where the danger points are.

Cultural attitudes

I made two main changes for this section in the interests of NPOV: I changed "leading as it often does to alcoholism" to "as it may lead to alcoholism", since the use of 'often' is vague and therefore misleading; and I toned down the bit about how being sober may be 'socially unaccceptable'. It also included the dread word 'often', and generally sounded a bit too much like it was trying to say "drunk people are often mean to sober people". Oh, and in the last paragraph I changed 'church' to 'Church' to keep it specific to the Catholics, and changed 'don't mind' to 'don't prohibit'. --Last Malthusian 10:42, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

What image?

This page has a {{reqimage}} tag but I don't see any specific request for an image, and nothing sensible comes to mind. Any ideas or should we remove the request? Tim Pierce 05:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the request. An image won't improve this article's quality anyway. Mrtea (talk) 02:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


Proper Disambiguation or Related Links

I believe that there should be a general intoxication page, possibly with information from the DSM-IV(-TR); The "related links" section should contain a specific link to alcohol drunkenness, or it could be listed at the top. This would present the information without having the bias. Brian 04:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, disambiguation could lead to other drugs and pharmacuticals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by McGootch (talk • contribs) 06:25, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't Drink and Type

I've never tried to type while intoxicated, so I can't say it's untrue that alcohol can lead to "impaired speech or impaired ability to type". But that is one odd thing to mention at the start of the article. How about juggling? Doesn't drunkenness impair your ability to juggle, hang-glide, tap-dance, and whistle? Since driving while drunk is recognized as a serious social problem, I would expect to see it mentioned there, but not typing.

It's not really an error, of course. Just...weird.

I've been drinking tonighti and for the sake of scinece i've dicided i woujld not backspace. ....at least we know its true

--68.35.204.107 00:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Content

This page seems more of a joke :) than a serious article.

--- OFTEN THE CASE IN KU CLUB ON A WEEKEND

What the hell did this mean?

In anycase removed it.

Binge drinking

"Binge drinking" is perceived as being a recent problem in the UK mostly by certain newspapers. I see little evidence in reality of it being either a problem or being new. So I've edited that clause out. DrHydeous 11:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Binge drinking is a serious problem in the United States and especially amongst college-aged populations. I believe that this section is relevant and to some individuals, the topic is relatively new in terms of being discussed openly and particularly on the national news! user:lhargrove

Quotations

Unencyclopedic - will anyone object if I remove it and provide a link to wikiquote:Alcohol? riana_dzasta 14:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Quotes about being drunk is not exactly the same as quotes about alcohol(ism). Robin22 01:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I think, that this is a great plus for the page. Not only does it have abundant following and humorous entity. It also relates completely with drunkeness as a whole. To take the quotation section off this page would not be good, imho.

JoeyGWilliams 06:25PM, 02/08/06

Agreed. No rule against interesting and relevant content. Britannica is not the be-all and end-all of what's "encyclopedic". Bill Oaf 10:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


I have deleted around four quotations from the part which were not exactly about the nature of alcoholic beverage. Now it seems more distinguished and shiny to me (and no, i'm not drunk :o)) please check it out sometime. Angelophiliac 03:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I restored one, because it made such a good section closer, IMO. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Number one on Google

[1] ranks #1 on Google for "Alcoholism"NumberOneGoogle 19:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

For the Japanese proverb, I've only seen it in form of "the man drinks the first glass, the first glass drinks the second and the third glass drinks the man" It seems to make more sense the way I have heard it, not the way it is currently written. 70.64.104.35 01:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Winston Churchill Quote

  • "You're drunk, disgustingly drunk!" "And you're ugly, disgustingly ugly! But tomorrow I shall be sober." - A drunken Winston Churchill responds to Bessie Matlock MP.

Does anyone have a reference for that? Because I've seen it attributed to Voltaire. Maybe both of them said it, but then Voltaire should get the credit. Robin22 01:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

All of the quotes need to be sourced. --Guinnog 02:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

the first churchill one is in the little book of churchill quotes the second seem like a different version of the first.

Red nose

  • On some earlier versions of Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer's article, it says a red nose was associated with drunkeness. What is the origin of the "red-nosed drunk"? WizardDuck 03:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it's because the superficial blood vessels of the nose (among other areas) dilate in the presence of alcohol becoming, over time, perminantly distended leaving the blood flow close to the skin hence the colour. --Meridius 16:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Animals and drunkeness

are there any articles on animal drunkeness?--Filll 16:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

i got this: http://www.cannabis.net/weblife.html Angelophiliac 03:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

what is drunk?

If you wake up in the morning, after a night of drinking, but still remember every event that occurred during that night of drinking, are you considered drunk? Maybe this is the wrong place to be asking, lol...but either way, maybe someone could expand on it and add it in...Also, what about hang-overs, usually occurring the morning after a night of drinking, if you do not get a hang-over (usually throbbing head/headache, i guess?); was the person still considered "drunk" if they don't have a hang-over the next morning?


This depends entirely on who is defining it. In the United States over a .08 blood/alcohol content is generally considered "Drunk" at least when defining it in reference to driving. On a broader level, this is a subjective question and there is no definitively correct answer. It depends on the person/institution that is defining the term. Cadentsoul 01:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Article name

I think the name of this article is poor. I think there are more clinical terms for it. Maybe "Alcohol Inebriation" or something of that sort? Anybody else have any thoughts on this? Maybe we should have a vote. Who supports a name change to "Alcohol Inebriation"? If you think this is a poor choice, please leave what you believe is a more appropriate name. I think a week is a reasonable amount of time to vote before a move. --Billywhack 11:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Intoxication

Intoxication is not the same as drunkenness, it's much broader, why the hell does it link to drunkenness? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.118.33.132 (talk • contribs)


Because no one bothered to write the article yet. Don't complain, write. Get off your butt and write.--Filll 03:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


Quotes

What is with half the page being quotations. Some are barely relevant to the subject.

I'm going to cut a bunch out. I've added a link to the Wikiquote page on alcohol (they don't have a page on drunkeness), so I'm going to cut all the quotes from TV shows and other less august sources. Natalie 00:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I also ended up cutting any quotes that were based on reversal of words (the spin is rooming, etc) and anything that was primarily about alcohol and not drunkeness. I think it's a bit better now. Natalie 00:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, the Japanese Proverb and the quote by F. Scott Fitzgerald are basically the same. I'm not sure they should both be there. Rajrajmarley 23:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Studies, symptoms

Shouldn't we add things about the symptoms of "drunkenness" and studies to that effect? As someone who is mildly drunk while adding this comment, I suggest we look into studies of drunk individuals and look at how they differ from sober individuals or themselves when sober (e.g. decreased eyesight, balance, e.t.c)* to the article? *Don't add this w/o citation, as it is merely OR based on what I'm going through at the moment. --GracieLizzie 00:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. This article needs much more content as to why ethanol does what it does to folks.Gwen Gale (talk) 01:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge

If you want this article to be more science-oriented, then merging Acute alcohol intoxication into it would be an easy way to start that process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Jmlk17 09:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Science Needed

This article is disgraceful! It is number one in Google's results for a search of "intoxication." As such, it ought to provide encyclopedic information, yet science is completely lacking. What chemistry goes on in the brain that produces the symptoms of drunken behavior? How is alcohol absorbed into the bloodstream? How is it eliminated? These are the real topics that need to be addressed. Law, Religion, Folklore, and Famous Drinking Quotations are incidental. Jedwards01 (talk) 05:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. A merge with acute alcohol intoxication has been proposed since February without action. I like the idea of having a separate article for social and cultural aspects of drunkenness that is relatively light on medicine and science, but the redirects and names might use clarification. First we need to dispose of the merge one way or the other. Wnt (talk) 20:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Religious views

In addition to the scriptures listed in this section, Ephesians 5:18 specifically commands believers not to get drunk. 209.50.178.50 (talk) 15:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

FAA

Just a question/comment, but shouldn't the comments regarding the FAA apply to all pilots and not just "aircrew members?" When I was studying for my pilot's license (which I did not complete) we were told that we could not drink not just before, but on the same day we were to fly. I'm sure this was just a local law/way of doing things, but I wonder if the actual law does not state that all aircraft operators cannot operate above a certain level. Vayne (talk) 22:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

History

Is there anything known about the dawn of drunkenness? When did people start drinking (too much) alcoholics? Not only the invention of beers, wines and spirits may be elementary for this, but also the invention of pottery and other drinking and brewing vessels. Possibly someone with access to the book of Stuart Walton could write a line or two about it. Glatisant (talk) 11:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to merge Acute alcohol intoxication here

  • Object - Such a merge is inappropriate. Simply put, "Drunkenness" is a social issue and the word can represent an acute or a chronic state. "Acute alcohol intoxication" is a clinical issue and means simply what it says. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 04:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Agreed with above, these are two very different things and deserve separate articles. – Alex43223 T | C | E 06:59, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

FYI, someone did it anyway. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:34, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Article issues

OK, so I haven't really got very long at the moment on the public terminal I'm writing this from, but I'll get the gist of it here, basically what can we do to resolve the issues?

I'd edit it, but since I'm not really sure what needs to be done, I thought I'd get consensus first rather than edit-war over it.

First issue - worldwide view: maybe we could have a separate article Laws on drunkenness worldwide or similar, and use this as an article about the topic itself.

Second issue - original research. Would this not be better being on Wikiversity or Wikibooks where there is some?? For GFDL compliance, a transwiki of this article would have to happen, and maybe this moved to a subpage of the unit e.g. Alcoholism/Drunkenness etc.

Looking for opinions, thanks! --Litherlandsand (talk) 10:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

MOM IS DRUNK AND THEIR ARE PHOTOS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.43.185.66 (talk) 01:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"Drunks" redirect

Searches for "Drunks" redirect here. There is also a 1995 feature film of this name. Maybe it would be better if there was a disambiguation page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.65.124 (talk) 04:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

NPOV ?

This article definitely is not NPOV. There is very strong religious overtone to the whole article. Please spin off the religious stuff into a separate article titled "religious attitudes towards intoxication".

I was looking for references to the role of intoxication in society. I expected to see references to (for example) the role of intoxication in the poetry of Mughal India. There's nothing here!

A Puzzling Sentence

I have trouble figuring out what we mean by saying that "Licensing ministers played an important role in controlling public drinking for the higher class because of their desire to control the public."

Are we saying that the higher classes licensed ministers because the higher classes desired control over the public? Or that the higher classes licensed ministers because ministers enjoyed controlling the public? Or that the licensing of ministers was an important means of controlling the drinking of the higher classes, because of the ministers' desire to control the public? Or something else altogether? 65.213.77.129 (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't explain how Alcohol/Ethanol works

It only explains the effects on an observatory level but does not go much into what receptors and functions are affected or how exactly. where might i find this information? i am intoxicated at the moment, i find it fascinating that I can maintain control of my self a lot better than my friends, they all turn into different people so to speak. I wonder why I do not. 71.112.207.51 (talk) 05:43, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the above person has a good point - the article needs a more integrated review of the physiology and neuropsychological effects of ethanol on the brain and its associated behaviors. In other words, ethanol's effects on various parts of the brain, GABA and Glutamate receptors, and its effect on the reward network. Also the causes of individual differences in psychological effects. Someday I'll do it if nobody does before me. -kslays (talk • contribs) 17:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

MERGE

I think that alcohol and cannabis articles should be merged —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.185.141.166 (talk) 05:43, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Why? They are completely unrelated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.24.207.77 (talk) 03:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Definitely as there is no difference.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:26, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Lay Buddhists

I have just deleted a "citation needed" from the paragraph on Buddhism in the "Religious views" section. The article linked to, Five Moral Precepts, is quite adequately supported. IF any additional citation is needed there, it's for "Monastic precepts are even stricter"! GeorgeTSLC (talk) 16:48, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Reviews

  • Brust JC (2010). "Ethanol and cognition: indirect effects, neurotoxicity and neuroprotection: a review". Int J Environ Res Public Health. 7 (4): 1540–57. doi:10.3390/ijerph7041540. PMC 2872345. PMID 20617045. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:42, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Article Name is Redundant

This article needs a better name. There is no need for alcohol to be in the title at all, intoxication would work just as well.-Zyrath (talk) 00:40, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

  • The word "alcohol" is required. This because clinically one can be intoxicated by using any psychoactive substance. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 06:27, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Of course, people usually say "intoxication" instead of "alcohol intoxication," but an encyclopedia must be more precise in its language. There are many kinds of intoxication. As stated in the article: "Toxicologists use the term 'alcohol intoxication' to discriminate between alcohol and other toxins." Wahrmund (talk) 20:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
  • You have a point, and I must agree. However, the name is still rather clunky.-Zyrath (talk) 22:04, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Semi-protection of page

I would like to discuss the appropriateness of semi-protection for this page (blocking of edits by IP and new editors).

A quick count of the vandalism over the last 3 months:

November: by IP users 4 cases of vandalism and 2 useful edits

October: by IP users 7 cases of vandalism and 2 useful edits

September: by IP users 6 cases of vandalism and 4 useful edits

Vandalism is outweighing useful edits by IPs on this page and most IP edits are relating to grammar/spelling/wording etc., granted these are valid contributions, but these things would be picked up by regular users in time.

Below I have pasted the criteria for semi-protecion of a page:

  • All or almost all of the vandalism is coming from unregistered users.
  • Unregistered editors should be making very few contributions to the article compared to the amount of vandalism coming from unregistered editors. The negative effects of semi-protection on discouraging positive contributions should be more of a concern than the positive effect of decreasing vandalism.
  • There are regularly many new vandals, therefore it would be a huge unending task to notify and warn all the vandals individually.
  • According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Vandalism studies#Conclusions from study 1, on average 5% of edits to a page are vandalism. So, 5% is the level of vandalism to be expected, and semi-protection should not be applied in this case. More than usual levels of vandalism occur when anything over 5% of edits constitute vandalism. If each vandal edit was followed by a revert, without any further edits to the page, then 50% of edits would be vandalism. *More than 50% is rare, but may occur when multiple vandalism edits are reverted by a single edit. The higher the percentage of vandal edits, the greater the need for protection.
  • Consider a lower threshold for protection for articles on living people as vandalism is potentially more damaging in these cases.

I think the page meets the criteria very well.

Thoughts?

MitchMcM (talk) 08:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

How long does it take to metabolise? And what the hell is a "standard unit"?

"It takes roughly 90 minutes for a healthy liver to metabolize a single ounce, approximately one hour per standard unit."

Assuming that an avoirdupois ounce is being talked about, and the density of alcohol as 0.79 g/ml as indicated on various pages around here, then an ounce is about 36 ml. This gives a "standard unit" as being 24 ml. According to what "standard" is this? It seems the only thing that comes close is the Japanese definition of a standard drink.

I probably first heard of units of alcohol from one of my school science textbooks, which I believe was British-made. This stated that a unit takes an hour for the liver to discharge, which matches with the claim here and almost with the information on Unit of alcohol. But it doesn't, by any set of definitions I've so far found, match up with the idea that an ounce takes 90 minutes.

In any case, we need to be clear on what definitions are being used. Even better, write whatever was meant in metric units, since these are recognised internationally.

That said, the statement has no citation. So for all we know, it could be something that some random editor made up. I'm going to add {{dubious}} in the hope that we can shed light on the matter in order to correct the information, or if not then remove it. — Smjg (talk) 21:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

This standard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_alcohol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.222.228 (talk) 10:46, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

The amounts are out by a factor of about 3. A standard unit is 10 ml not 50, and the rate at which alcohol is metabolised is about 10 ml/hour, so the statement in the article is very misleading. (Sorry, not posted to a talk page before, hope I'm doing it right.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Feydun (talk • contribs) 08:41, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I found a source for rate of metabolisation, on nhs.uk, so I replaced the conflicting statements with an edit based on that. The rate quoted matches well this more scholarly source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3484320/#R1 Mccormag (talk) 19:21, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Non-humans

I can't find anything in the article about the effects of alcohol on non-human life. This seems like a rather gross omission since there are plenty of cases of other animals getting drunk too. I would be interested in particular to know which species are susceptible to drunkenness and which aren't. CodeCat (talk) 16:07, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Probably worth adding. There was a request for this information in 2007 as well. Sizeofint (talk) 18:29, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Hear hear! Intoxication in animals. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 23:35, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
What's there now is a good start. I still think it would be desirable to have a more scientific/medical view on which animals are affected by alcohol. Are insects or jellyfish affected, for example? CodeCat (talk) 01:29, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

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Copy and paste

In 2016 we had:[2]

"Symptoms of alcohol intoxication include euphoria, flushed skin and decreased social inhibition at lower doses, with larger doses producing progressively severe impairments of balance, muscle coordination (ataxia), and decision-making ability (potentially leading to violent or erratic behavior) as well as nausea or vomiting"

This book included that text and was published in 2017 by Cambridge University Press.[3]

The text was originally added in 2013 as:[4]

"Symptoms of alcohol intoxication include euphoria, flushed skin and decreased social inhibition at lower doses, with larger doses producing progressively severe impairments of balance, muscle coordination (ataxia), and decision-making ability (potentially leading to violent or erratic behavior) as well as nausea or vomiting."

Our articles says

"Sufficiently high levels of blood-borne alcohol will cause coma and death from the depressive effects of alcohol upon the central nervous system." which was added in 2012 Aug by User:Bravo Foxtrot[5]

Which turned into:

"Excessive blood levels of alcohol are likely to cause coma and death from the depressant effects of alcohol on the vital structures of the brain."

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

That book appears to be citing PMID 3041244. Any chance that's where the text arose? LeadSongDog come howl! 17:36, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Psychiatry

Is "alcohol intoxication" psychiatry? IMO no. Alcoholism definitely is but not really acute intoxication.

Acute intoxication is toxicology. Psychiatry is not interested in getting involved until they are sober. This is the reality is most of the world. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:04, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Plenty of folks on behavioral health units are on withdrawl protocols. 69.255.127.93 (talk) 05:57, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Is drinking alcohol the same as alcohol poisoning?

Somebody went through and conflated "alcohol intoxication" with "alcohol poisoning". That's not at all supported by the current sources and is 100% incorrect from a medical perspective. It's simply wrong. One's an acute medical emergency and the other's not. It seems somebody just folded the separate section into the main lede for organizational purposes. That's... not really helpful.

Does anybody want to take a stab at fixing this? It currently borders on inaccurate medical advice. J. Harrington Inchworm III (talk) 22:32, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you @J. Harrington Inchworm III: I'm trying to edit the page accordingly but it seems to be contentious. FrankP (talk) 00:52, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
User:J. Harrington Inchworm III This source says they are synonyms https://books.google.ca/books?id=pwajBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA13#v=onepage&q&f=false
Which sources say they are not? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:23, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
"This source says they are synonyms" -- No, that's a misreading of the source. Under the heading "Synonyms" are several entries -- the items in each line are synonyms of each other, e.g Alcohol poisoning (primary term) = Acute pathological intoxication (term in parentheses). But the inclusion of pathological is important there, because that is distinct from the items on the first line, where Inebriation = Acute alcohol intoxication, i.e. just being drunk. FrankP (talk) 22:57, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
I've removed this now, as not in source cited, and also WP:PN FrankP (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
@Doc James: Are you serious? I see you have immediately reverted my change. I have restrained myself from reverting you back for now. Is it your actual position that "alcohol poisoning" is verifiably synonymous with "inebriation"? Please discuss this a bit further. Thank you. FrankP (talk) 00:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

User:FrankP if you read the source[6] it lists under synonyms "alcohol poisoning" being the same as "acute pathologic intoxication"

I've seen the source. I have to disagree with you. Yes it equates "alcohol poisoning" with "acute pathologic intoxication". What it does not do is equate "alcohol poisoning" with "inebriation" or "drunkenness". Let's use WP:COMMON here. If you say being inebriated is the same as suffering alcohol poisoning then you rob the latter term of any significance. This source does not support your position. FrankP (talk) 01:04, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

This source also links the two.[7] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:55, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Another "bullet-point" list, from which it is hard to draw conclusions about what exactly is stated to be the same as what else. FrankP (talk) 01:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

"Alcohol poisoning presents in two forms, acute and chronic. However, these are most often referred to as alcohol intoxication and alcohol addiction respectively."[8] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:05, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, this does seem to be a much clearer expression, in a source, of the viewpoint you are presenting. Do you not see, however, that such a viewpoint is likely to be regarded as unusual by most speakers of English who have previously heard the term "alcohol poisoning"? Is it the case that if I drink a pint or two of beer that I have suffered a case of alcohol poisoning? FrankP (talk) 01:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
You would not really be intoxicated at a pint or two I do not imagine. I get parents / friends who bring in intoxicated youth and they often refer to it as alcohol poisoning. People do not generally present to the ER saying they are intoxicated but rather that they have alcohol poisoning. I think people use different terminology in different settings. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:18, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Yes, people use different terms, agreed. But what we should be looking for here is rather beyond what "some guy said in ER" -- shouldn't we be using the terminology that is current within relevant secondary literature? I appreciate that you've found a source (Gupta: Toxicology) which seems to use the term in the way you are suggesting, I just feel still it is counter-intuitive and would benefit from a bit of a step back so we can ask "is this really a consensus view"? An extra thought -- there might be some confirmation bias going on. The vast majority of people who become inebriated/intoxicated/drunk do not end up in ER. So that's a pretty bad sample to take. I've made a request for further input from Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine FrankP (talk) 01:27, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Sure sounds good... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
(Here from WT:MED talk) For what it's worth, ICD has separate codes for intoxication and poisoning – F10.0 and T59 respectively in ICD-10, and 6C40.3 and NE61 respectively in ICD-11. I can only speak from a UK clinical coding aspect; but I'd be comfortable using both codes if both intoxication and poisoning were mentioned by the clinician (and have in the past). (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) Little pob (talk) 13:40, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
I had a look at a few textbooks. The general theme seems to be that there's a spectrum that runs like this:
  • alcohol intoxication ("got drunk")
  • alcohol poisoning (serious medical problems; "pale or bluish skin, vomiting, nausea, confusion, unconciousness or cannot be roused, seizures, low body temperature, and slow or irregular breathing" per ISBN 9781444345315 page 185; in occasional drinkers, this appears to correlate with the symptoms given on page 238 for 150 to 300 mg/dL [which is double to quadruple the legal driving limits in the US)
  • alcohol-induced coma
  • death
My overall impression is that the line drawn between "intoxication" and "poisoning" is when you might die without treatment. However, ISBN 9781444345315 (page 53) says that different countries use the terms in different ways (and also notes some of the differences between the DSM and ICD definitions). Therefore, I think we're going to have to pick a way to use those terms in this article, explicitly say what we picked, and use them consistently throughout the article. There is no single correct answer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:17, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
Two more points:
  • I thought this was a good summary of where to draw the line: "Most commonly, severe depression of the central nervous system coupled with respiratory depression is associated with alcohol poisoning. This is also a final common pathway to alcohol poisoning-related coma and death. In acute alcohol poisoning, the narrow spectrum of moderate to severe intoxication leading to poisoning and coma should be taken into strong consideration."
  • The section heading is misleading, in what seems to be a POV-revealing way. There's a difference between "drinking alcohol" and "being intoxicated". Healthy adults can drink some alcohol without becoming intoxicated. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
I wrote the section heading. It derives directly from the opening sentence of the article: "Alcohol intoxication, also known as drunkenness or alcohol poisoning, is the negative behavior and physical effects due to the recent drinking of ethanol (alcohol)". This sentence does not add any of the qualification concerning degrees of intoxication which are evident in the discussion so far. It seems to say quite simply (and misleadingly) that drinking alcohol = alcohol intoxication = drunkenness = alcohol poisoning. My point is that it should be more nuanced, and I think the comments here reflect that idea, that there is a spectrum with poisoning at the far end. FrankP (talk) 18:43, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Short answer: Ethanol is not a poison but one can poison oneself with it in several ways.

Much longer answer: One usually associates the concept of a poison with a risk of death or disease. Let us exemplify this with a different substance as an introduction to the terminology as follows. We all have a certain amount of mercury in our bodies, and mercury is certainly poisonous in large enough quantities. Chronic mercury poisoning is debilitating; Erethism, also known as erethism mercurialis, mad hatter disease, or mad hatter syndrome, is a neurological disorder which affects the whole central nervous system, as well as a symptom complex, derived from mercury poisoning. Now to call mercury a poison is only slightly semantically challenged. However, it is more exactly a hazardous substance, and generally poisonous in the context of inhaled metallic vapor or ingested as the chloride, which latter is extremely toxic.

When chronic ethanol intoxication is debilitating, it is a disease. I leave it to the semanticists to define the difference between psychosocial debilitating chronic ethanol intoxication and alcoholism, but do leave a clues; As with any psychiatric condition, it is up to an external observer, and not the afflicted who therein may lack insight, to ascertain what degree of debilitation qualifies a person as an alcoholic. However, objectively organic disease resulting from chronic ethanol intoxication in some cases includes: (1) retrograde amnesia (Korsakoff's syndrome) via thiamine deficiency. (2) alcoholic cirrhosis of the liver.

Ethanol is toxic in large quantities, i.e., its toxicity is called low. Moreover, a certain concentration of naturally occurring ethanol blood level is called endogenous-normal physiologic (and sometimes is higher than normally physiological; endogenous pathophysiological).

Finally, as it naturally produced in the body, ethanol is not a poison per se. However, it is poisonous with acute or chronic (ingestion or inhalation) in large enough quantities as it can cause disease and death, and is typically toxic at lower levels than it would be thought poisonous. For example, see the 50% lethal dose (LD50) and 50% lethal concentration literature for ethanol.

From Ethyl Alcohol - Fisher Scientific

LD50/LC50: CAS# 64-17-5: 

    Draize test, rabbit, eye: 500 mg Severe;
    Draize test, rabbit, eye: 500 mg/24H Mild;
    Draize test, rabbit, skin: 20 mg/24H Moderate;
    Inhalation, mouse: LC50 = 39 gm/m3/4H;
    Inhalation, rat: LC50 = 20000 ppm/10H;
    Oral, mouse: LD50 = 3450 mg/kg;
    Oral, rabbit: LD50 = 6300 mg/kg;
    Oral, rat: LD50 = 7060 mg/kg;
    Oral, rat: LD50 = 9000 mg/kg;

CarlWesolowski (talk) 01:38, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Alcoholism

Fits better as a risk factor of alcohol intoxication than a complication per this source.

"Alcohol use disorder - Symptoms and causes". Mayo Clinic. Retrieved 26 November 2019.

Unless you have another source?

Basically alcohol intoxication is a complication of alcoholism does not mean that alcoholism is viewed as a complication of intoxication. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:32, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Death by alcohol

I watched this video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gn-QZ_e06k -- and it said that since alcohol relaxes parts of the brain, if you drink a huge amount of alcohol it can relax it so much that the medulla shuts down, killing the drinker. This death due to vital functions not happening anymore/vital organs not working should be written about in the article, probably with a better source. Notice, that this death by ethanol is not caused by choking on vomit. --User123o987name (talk) 05:28, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

It's in the opening. That's what respiratory depression is. 69.255.127.93 (talk) 06:59, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
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