Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism

New member, recent importance assessments and some more

Hi! I'm new here, excited to join. I've recently completely reworked Soy curls (I nearly removed everything and started from zero) but it is still missing a lot. I've also assessed the following articles, although I'm not sure if they are correct so feel free to change them:

• L. J. C. Daniels: low importance. He was vegetarian, but there is only that
• Orphism (religion): Mid importance. Perhaps could be high? It is a cool religion from the 6th century BC and they followed a strict vegetarian diet.
• Talk:Paul Carton: Mid importance. Doctor from the 20th century that promoted "naturist vegetarianism"
• Elsie Shrigley: High importance. Co-founder of the vegan society, Credited to coin the term "vegan". Could perhaps be even Top?
• Talk:Tom Regan: He was Top. Changed to High. Writer of The Case for Animal Rights, which isn't part of this project yet but I feel it should. AdrianHObradors (talk) 13:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Rinku Singh (wrestler) listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Rinku Singh (wrestler) to be moved to Veer Mahaan. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 17:34, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

Charles Wesley and John Wesley

I have removed Charles Wesley from the WikiProject. According to historical sources he tried a vegetarian diet for less than a few months (this means nothing considering he lived 80 years). He was not a long-term vegetarian and very little sourcing exists on his diet. His brother John Wesley was a long-term vegetarian so belongs in the WikiProject. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Charles Wesley has long been CLAIMED to be vegetarian by Christian vegetarians. Where is the evidence that he was not a long-term vegetarian? MaynardClark (talk) 20:24, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Apu Nahasapeemapetilan listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Apu Nahasapeemapetilan to be moved to Apu Nahasapeemapetilon. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 22:02, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

Leonardo da Vinci listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Leonardo da Vinci to be moved to Leonardo Da Vinci. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 06:30, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

Aviv (restaurant) at AfD

Aviv (restaurant) has been nominated for deletion. Discussion participation welcome. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Yoga and vegetarianism

Some of the influential yoga teachers and writers were vegetarians but this information is missing from their Wikipedia biographies. Examples include Tirumalai Krishnamacharya, B. K. S. Iyengar, Indra Devi, Beryl Bender Birch, Amrit Desai, K. V. Iyer, Jon Kabat-Zinn, Shri Yogendra, Swami Satchidananda, Satyananda Saraswati, Sivananda Saraswati, Paramahansa Yogananda, Anandamayi Ma, Lokenath Brahmachari, Kriyananda, Vishwananda. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Not some but most of them because yogic philosophy conventionally mandates Sattvic diet or vegetarianism. Rasnaboy (talk) 15:02, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Eyestalk ablation for Translation of the week

Hello! I'm reaching out to you because in October, I proposed the English-language article Eyestalk ablation for the Translation of the week project. So far, it's gotten 3 votes and 1 opposition. Given your interest in divulging animal rights, I thought you might be prompted to vote for it and make it available in many more languages. Thank you beforehand! --Brunnaiz (talk) 12:20, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Interesting topic, where do you vote for this? I could not find the link. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Islam and veganism

It is hard to find historical examples of veganism in Islam, although there was the former-Muslim Al-Ma'arri. Some Sufi mystics were vegetarian. For example Rumi might have been vegan "Rumi was a staunch vegetarian and shunned even milk and milk products" [1]. Rabia of Basra was a vegetarian, as was Bawa Muhaiyaddeen [2] but these are only an extreme minority. There is only a handful of examples. I would like to improve Rumi's article and add mention of his vegetarianism. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:40, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Category: Vegans

I noticed that the Category:Vegans exists under "People in Veganism" but only has eleven individuals listed. This seems like an area for considerable expansion, especially when cross referenced with the List of vegans and wanted to check if there was a reason it had not been done previously? Vegantics (talk) 15:55, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes Vegantics, it was decided years ago that the 'List of vegans' could only be distributed to the 'See also' sections of the pages of those who were publicly dedicated and active vegans (same with List of vegetarians). That would go for the category as well, only those who publicly and often proclaim they are vegans or, better yet, those who are public activists should fit into 'Vegan' categories. How they are named and sorted maybe hasn't been discussed as yet. Thanks for focusing on this and these topics. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:12, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I think I understand but forgive my inexperience here. It sounds like only individuals on the List of vegans for whom veganism plays a significant role should have it included on their page in the "See also" section.

In terms of Category:Vegans, the same dedication is required to justify including it in the Categories section on their page. If so, there are certainly vocal, active vegans who could be added to the Vegans category (albeit not everyone on the List of vegans).

Looking a little more, I realized many of the names I expected to see under Vegans are listed in the Category:Vegan Activism. Perhaps listing them in both areas is redundant, since both are subcategories of People in Veganism, but that seems a different area of discussion than non-activist public vegans. Vegantics (talk) 16:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

The vegans category is going to be deleted. It was already previously deleted and there has been a broad consensus to delete that category. All categories must be defining. Veganism activists is the good category to expand and keep because those individuals are known for their veganism. We can only use vegan and vegetarian categories if the person is notable for that, it must be a defining feature of their life. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:23, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

How ought that 'expansion' to be optimally achieved? MaynardClark (talk) 23:17, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Albert Einstein

Albert Einstein has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 18:06, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Critics of veganism

We have a critics of veganism category but it is not well populated. I recently found a critic of veganism Chris Belshaw [3], [4] that might qualify for an article. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:54, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Eric Adams is not a vegan

Eric Adams is a pescetarian as he is a big fish consumer and has admitted to eating fish at restaurants. He is not a vegan or vegetarian, he is a pescetarian. He currently is currently included in the "American veganism activists" category [5] and has now been included on the veganism template [6]. I think we need to have a discussion about this and come to a consensus view because I do not believe he should be on these templates. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:15, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Is NYC Mayor Eric Adams (D-NY) "a big fish consumer" or "an occasional fish consumer" (as are some/many macrobiotics? MaynardClark (talk) 19:47, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Big fish consumer. We have quite a few WP:RS on this, he has been seen in multiple restaurants ordering and eating fish. Even his personal assistant admitted he is pescetarian. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Ralph Waldo Trine

Ralph Waldo Trine's Wikipedia article has sadly been deleted [7]. I suspect that it will be created again, if it is recreated his vegetarianism should be re-added. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I created a new article for Ralph Waldo Trine. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Kyozan Joshu Sasaki

Kyozan Joshu Sasaki who died age 107 I am trying to find sources for his vegetarian diet. This source says that his students were fed communal vegan meals [8]. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:11, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 22:19, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Sam Ryder (singer) listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Sam Ryder (singer) to be moved to Sam Ryder. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 17:34, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

Oliver Sykes listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Oliver Sykes to be moved to Oli Sykes. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 13:46, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

Egg as food listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Egg as food to be moved to Eggs as food. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 19:32, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

George Regout listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for George Regout to be moved to Georgea Regout. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 18:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

List of vegetarians

Unfortunately many of the celebrities cited as being vegetarian on the article list of vegetarians are not vegetarian as they eat chicken or fish. I am currently removing non-vegetarians from the list. See talk-page discussion. Any help would be appreciated. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals to be moved to PETA. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 10:48, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

Credibility bot

As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Wikipedia:Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 17:28, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Rachael Leigh Cook listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Rachael Leigh Cook to be moved to Rachael Leigh-Cook. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 20:16, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

Lingayatism listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Lingayatism to be moved to Lingayat. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 13:31, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics

I have created Wikipedia articles for dietitians and physicians associated with the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics who authored their position papers on vegetarian diets.

• Position Paper on the vegetarian approach to eating (1980)

Authors: Lydia Sonnenberg, Kathleen Keen Zolber, U. D. Register.

"The American Dietetic Association affirms that a well planned diet, consisting of a variety of largely unrefined plant foods supplemented with some milk and eggs (lacto-ovo vegetarian diet) meets all known nutrient needs. Furthermore, a total plant dietary can be made adequate by careful planning, giving proper attention to specific nutrients which may be in a less available form or in lower concentration or absent in plant foods."

• Position of The American Dietetic Association: Vegetarian diets—technical support paper (1988)

Authors: Suzanne Havala, Johanna Dwyer. Reviewers: Phyllis Acosta, George Eisman, Alice Marsh, Connie Metcalf, Patricia Mutch, U. D. Register, Kathleen Zolber.

"It is the position of The American Dietetic Association that vegetarian diets are healthful and nutritionally adequate when appropriately planned."

• Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets (1993)

Authors: Suzanne Havala, Johanna Dwyer. Reviewers: Phyllis Acosta, Patricia Johnston, Mary Clifford, Winston Craig, Virginia Messina.

"A considerable body of scientific data suggests positive relationships between vegetarian diets and risk reduction for several chronic degenerative diseases and conditions, including obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, diabetes mellitus, and some types of cancer. It is the position of The American Dietetic Association that vegetarian diets are healthful and nutritionally adequate when appropriately planned."

• Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets (1997)

Authors: Virginia K. Messina, Kenneth I. Burke. Reviewers: Winston J. Craig, Johanna Dwyer, Suzanne Havala, D. Enette Larson, Reed Mangels, Lenore Hodges, Cyndi Reeser.

"Scientific data suggest positive relationships between a vegetarian diet and reduced risk for several chronic degenerative diseases and conditions, including obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, diabetes mellitus, and some types of cancer. Vegetarian diets, like all diets, need to be planned appropriately to be nutritionally adequate. It is the position of The American Dietetic Association (ADA) that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, are nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases."

• Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diets (2003)

Authors: Reed Mangels, Virginia Messina, Vesanto Melina.

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and the Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases."

• Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets (2009)

Authors: Winston J Craig, Reed Mangels.

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."

Wikipedia articles need to be created for:

• Winston J. Craig
• George Eisman
• Patricia Johnston
• D. Enette Larson
• Virginia Messina

Kenneth I. Burke, Mary Clifford, Lenore Hodges, Cyndi Reeser, Connie Metcalf, Patricia Mutch, Lydia Sonnenberg do not qualify for a Wikipedia article as there is a lack of reliable sources that mention them. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:23, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Kellogg's listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Kellogg's to be moved to Kellanova. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 01:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

B-checklist in project template

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council § Determining the future of B-class checklists. This project is being notified since it is one of the 82 WikiProjects that opted-in to support B-checklists (B1-B6) in your project banner. DFlhb (talk) 11:56, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals to be moved to PETA. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 14:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

Scholars of veganism

For a long time there has only been a category for veganism activists. Some of the people included on these lists are not activists for veganism they are academics or scholars.

I have now created scholars of veganism for academics and scholars who have written about veganism. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:42, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

It's a long pending one. Thanks. Rasnaboy (talk) 03:28, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Christian Mortensen

Christian Mortensen was not a vegetarian, see talk-page. His article should be updated. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Most of the athletes listed are not vegan or vegetarian

@MaynardClark:

Many of the athletes you added are not vegan or vegetarian, I will go through the others later. If you research these individuals deeply you will find newspaper reports or interviews where they have admitted to eating eggs or fish. Venus Williams for example has never been a vegan. She calls herself a "cheagan" as a joke, and has admitted she still eats red meat. CM Punk eats fish. Most "athlete or celebrity lists" online for vegans or vegetarians are completely inaccurate, they are usually promotional lists. They are not reliable unfortunately.

The Wikipedia lists are more accurate but still need work, see list of vegans and list of vegetarians. Also see the discussions on those talk-pages. I have done work on these lists removing unreliable names. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Can we suppose that this illustrates that seemingly 'reliable' sources are unreliable and not to be believed (or that 'vegans' as a grpup may be targeted by publicists for such celebrities in order to advance these celebrities by the talking habits of activists)? Is there a term for disinformation for political or publicity or self-aggrandizement purposes? Lying? Disinformation? This scenario highlights important points:

1. Reliability of Sources: It suggests that not all claims made by publicists or even by the general public (hoi polloi) about celebrities' lifestyles are accurate. This underscores the importance of verifying information from credible sources before accepting it as true.
2. Potential Targeting by Publicists: It's possible that publicists or marketing teams may strategically align celebrities with certain causes or lifestyles, such as veganism, in order to enhance their public image or appeal to specific demographics, including environmentally conscious or socially aware consumers.
3. Activist Influence: There may indeed be instances where celebrities are promoted as vegan or vegetarian to capitalize on the popularity of these dietary choices among activists or certain consumer groups. This could be seen as a form of "greenwashing" or exploiting the values and beliefs of a target audience for personal or professional gain.

In light of these considerations, it's essential to critically evaluate the information presented by publicists, media outlets, and even fellow activists. Doing so helps ensure that individuals can make informed decisions and avoid being misled by potentially biased or inaccurate representations.MaynardClark (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

PETA and various vegan organizations or activist websites such as VegNews compile a lot of these lists, they then are copied to websites like imdb. The websites are indeed activist influenced and unreliable. Such websites have an agenda to claim most athletes or celebrities are vegan. They basically lie to promote their cause. In reality very few athletes are vegan. A lot of celebrities sometimes flirt with veganism for a short while as a publicist stunt for advertising, it is just a scam to make money. There are very few long-term vegan celebrities. I say this as someone who has spent countless hours researching the topic. PETA used to do the most sexiest vegetarian award and things like that but most of the celebrities posed semi-nude for them in a single advert, this doesn't mean they are long-term vegan or vegetarians. It's is just a publicist stunt.

You also have the fact that some alleged long-term vegans are not even vegan. David Haye for example has been caught eating chicken and Kat Von D eats eggs and meat all the time but if you read their Wikipedia articles it still says they are vegan. We need good WP:RS. If I see a good source saying any of the celebrities eats eggs or fish, then we can remove mention of vegan from their Wikipedia articles.

As a historian I am more interested in historical vegetarians. Most of the historical individuals I have researched were vegetarian and did not cheat. Unfortunately in todays society there seems to be an obsession with consuming fish but then people claiming incorrectly they are vegan or vegetarian.

In a nutshell, activist websites are the worst sources of information on vegan celebrities. They are best to be avoided. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

John Woolman

You could remove the "vegetarian" claim from John Woolman's page... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Woolman Reportedly, he was not really vegetarian. There's (little or) no evidence for the claim. Reportedly, the anecdote mentioned happened to Anthony Benezet, not John Woolman. MaynardClark (talk) 21:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Nice spot. We need more members of this WikiProject such as yourself to find mistakes like this. I am reading over the book John Woolman's Path to the Peaceable Kingdom: A Quaker in the British Empire. p. 150, it says "The trauma of the war convinced Woolman's neighbor Joshua Evans that hunting, and meat-eating generally, violated the Quaker's peace testimony. Woolman did not condemn meat-eating, but he never sold powder or shot again."

Joshua Evans is said to have "abstained from animal food, as he did also from the use of leather and the skins of slaughtered beasts" [9]. Evans was the vegetarian.

"There is no evidence that Woolman ever became fully vegetarian like Lay, Evans, and Benezet" [10]

"Woolman did not become a strident vegetarian, but in other respects his perspective on animal life resembled the views of Tryon and Evans". [11] Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:32, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

As I see this, these narratives are (ostensibly) about "religious experiences" and the changes of mind and heart that they involve. We may have seen evidence (writing, etc.) from someone in a process of repentance as his mind was actively changing through moral sensitization. We (vegans?) may have a tendency to think (in a "binary" way) of others as either vegan or not vegan (or vegetarian and not vegetarian, or "on the path" or something else "interpretive" that does or does not correlate closely with their (inaccessible to us) personal experience as "a person in process." Perhaps there was a sensitization process; we don't have omniscience. MaynardClark (talk) 01:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Based on some of the scholarly sources I have just read, Woolman did try and cut down on his meat intake but he still ate meat. He never was a vegetarian. I have not looked into much about the religious element of this. Obviously people go vegetarian for different reasons including ethical, religious or spiritual but if someone is still consuming meat, they are not vegetarian. Psychologist Guy (talk) 02:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

But they are "persons in process" (like so many of us). MaynardClark (talk) 03:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Chinese emperors and vegetarianism

This paper states that Emperor Wu of Liang and Emperor Wen of Sui were both vegetarians [12]. I would be interested in locating historical sources on this. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)