Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cricket/Archive 54

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Dr Bernard Whimpress, Ashley Mallett, Gideon Haigh in Adelaide for the Test...did some public talks

They held a miniconference at Uni Wednesday and Thursday and I didn't know about it! Until I read it just before the last talk session started! Apparently only the people in the humanities were advised or it: Pride, Prejudice, Power & Race in Cricket. It was rather strange what they said becausethey didn't hold back; Mallett condemned doosra bowlers as throwers, and another talked about some explosive things but said he wasn't game enough to put it in print yet for fear of physical reprisal (not being more explicit here just in case his enemies read this). I was surprised they would say it in a forum open to the public, because I believe it was audio recorded and although I think I was the only real outsider there. Neville Turner appeared to notice that I only turned up for the last part and asked me about what I did so I told him about Wikipedia writing and my blog and a column about Ganguly that Mint (newspaper) saod that they were going to print. Then Bernard stepped in to talk to Neville and he told him that I wrote about Harbhajan-Bhajji was one of the topics discussed at the conference, and I told Bernard that I used his "Chuckers" book to write about Meckiff and Jack Marsh on Wikipedia :) . Neville and Bernard didn't appear to have heard much about Wikipedia but Gideon heard my last comment about using Bernard's book and he -perhaps sardonically- said "Ah, You've made it" to Bernard in reference to his appearance on Wikipedia. Anyway, unfortunately, the host had arranged for his guests to go to dinner and I didn't get to talk to them for more than 3 minutes, but they gave me their business cards. Bernard asked me if I was interested in joining his history group meetings at the Adelaide Oval museum where he is the curator. Wonder if this leads to anything interesting...maybe I really can become a cricket pundit :P. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model) 03:21, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Mallett said Australian players are overcoached and if SL had the same facilities they would never lose. He shared lots of anecdotes about Bennett King and criticised the Centre of Excellence and Buchanan quite a bit. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model) 03:21, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Fascinating! --Dweller (talk) 10:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Ironic that one of the topics was about security paranoia on the subcontinent and then look what happened. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model!) 00:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - it's the infobox again

Hi,

Sorry to bring this up again, but the player infobox should now have functionality for the dual-nationals. It's still in my sandbox example here (code here).

The main issue I need to check with you guys is that (with Andrew Nixon's suggestion), the link to the "country cricket team" is now in the International information section, and not at the top of the box under the name/image. If this is a problem, please shout.—MDCollins 12:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

As I said on your talk page, fantastic work. Having the national side in the international information section makes things look a lot tidier, and allows us to have something there for international players who haven't played Tests, ODIs or Twenty20 Internationals. Andrew nixon (talk) 12:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I wish I can get the 2 countries on one line, but the simplest things are annoying me at the moment. I'll keep working on that bit. Hopefully it will also remove the blank line that has crept into the top of the box. Also the "cap" links have moved from the word 'cap' to the numbers, allowing for links to two sets of caps.—MDCollins 12:30, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think it looks better having it on two lines. Having it on one line could get messy if I do an infobox for someone who played for the Federated Malay States and the Straits Settlements, for example. Now, Faoud Bacchus played for the West Indies, Canada and the USA... probably best to ignore that! Andrew nixon (talk) 12:40, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't you dare...!, Although actually to add country3 is pretty simple, as for the match information, as long as country2 is set, you just specify testdebutfor etc. I was just thinking about reducing the length, which could just be wrapped onto if they are too long with a forced line break perhaps. I'll leave it for a moment.—MDCollins 12:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Update: I've now "gone live" with the dual-country functions - if things break, let me know, but it looks stable to me. Andrew, I've added country3, although I've left the cap info out for that for now, it won't fit easily (although I might have a go, because no doubt you'll tell me that Bacchus has legitimate cap numbers for WI, Can, US... :-)!—MDCollins 02:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Worcestershire = Loganberryshire

Unsung, unseen, User:Loganberry has now done articles on every single cricketer to have appeared for Worcestershire CCC since the dawn of recorded time (well, 1899). Many congratulations on a tremendous piece of work. Johnlp (talk) 10:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Congratulations! Three pears cheers! --Dweller (talk) 10:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Including no less than eight called Foster! It would be great if we could eventually do the same for all first-class teams but I see there have been well over 500 Worcs players and some of the oldest teams must have had nigh on a thousand players. It says something about the massive scope of the project. Well done, LB. ---BlackJack | talk page 10:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for completing that work, Loganberry! That's one from eighteen gone. Seems the lightest of remaining tasks is Durham, with just eleven first-class redlinks (by my reckoning) left. Derbyshire would appear to have 105 names left, Essex, 237, Glamorgan 165. The rest of my lists pretty much all have bluelinks incorporated within them. By comparison, when I started my occasional work on Kent, there were still 448 redlinks left, now there are around 406.
Of course all these numbers are approximate, and are subject to me remembering how to count so early on in the day. Bobo. 13:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Is Danny Kelleher of Kent, the one who committed suicide? I have a nicely personal obit in an old copy of The Cricketer International that I was reading the other day, that I can dig out. --Dweller (talk) 13:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Uncle was Harry of Surrey and Northants. Johnlp (talk) 14:13, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a figure for Kent county players going right back to 1709? I couldn't help notice the names in the bottom corner of your Kent redlinks and can confirm that we already have Edward Bligh and Henry W. Barnard, while "Billy Beldham" is of course William Beldham (and needs a lot of work doing on it, too!). ---BlackJack | talk page 14:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Not 1709, unfortunately. Just back to 1806, which is the earliest date of any Kent match marked in Cricket Archive as "first class". I could, if you wish, incorporate in my list those matches designated in Cricket Archive as "major matches", as they appear all to have scorecards attached, but not going back as far as Kent v. Surrey on June 29, 1709, as Cricket Archive don't have a scorecard available for me to glean names from. Bobo. 17:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
No need as we already have articles for every player up to 1815. I was just wondering about the number. How many players are there from 1806 and do you have any counties with greater numbers? ---BlackJack | talk page 17:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Aha, that's awesome, I was completely unaware of that. Kent played one first-class match in 1806, therefore there are eleven first-class debutantes from that year. I've messed up somewhere in my list, so I'm going to leave it as it currently stands, but I know therefore that I have some names missing from the very start of their first-class existence. I will check later. Bobo. 20:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
There are certainly no English domestic cricket teams that I can find with more players than Kent, there are by my reckoning 806 cricketers who represented the team, whose full names were available on Cricket Archive at the time I made the list as of when I first compiled the list in 2006. This does not include those cricketers for whom only an initial and name was available, for some reason I didn't include these in my lists when I first made them, and who I thus exclude from the final count simply because they weren't in my original list. Add these to those I didn't include, those for whom I only knew an initial and a surname, and you probably have... slightly more.</copout> Bobo. 20:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Well done, indeed, Loganberry! JH (talk page) 18:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Edward Bligh

As for Edward Bligh, thank you very much for noticing. This is the third of the three Edward Bligh's in the list, the other two I've had to retain their birth years on for means of the simplest way of disambiguation.

Which is something I went to get into sometime soon - someone recently moved a page I created which was Foo (cricketer, born fa), to Foo (Team cricketer), quoting a very obscure Wikipedia suggestion that I'd never come across before. At which point, I had to move the page back, saying that I had to write another article about another cricketer with the same name, from the same team, born in a different century.

He then, as I say, quoted the suggestion that you shouldn't disambiguate per birth years, though as I saw it, there was little other way to do so.

I realize the simple answer is WP:IAR, but does anyone have a more elegant solution when the two cricketers played on the same team? Check out, for example, User:Bobo192/Karachi Greens, where I have, as unwieldy as the title seems, Mohammad Aslam (1960s Karachi Greens cricketer). Were I to name him simply Mohammad Aslam (Karachi Greens cricketer), this would confuse him with Mohammad Aslam (1980s Karachi Greens cricketer), who although he is the same as Mohammad Aslam (cricketer), I am unable to do the same with the 1960s player. He has no birthdate attached to him, I can't simply distinguish him by nationality, as there are fourteen Mohammad Aslams who have played first-class or List A cricket - as follows:

Getting the most important two out of the way first:

The other names, to my eyes, seem obvious:

I realize this post is a bit long-winded and confusing, but all I'm after really is clarification of the first two names, particularly the second. Any other suggestions? Bobo. 17:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the best way is to follow football's precedent. To me as a lifelong Liverpool fan, there is of course only one Tommy Smith in football, but in fact there are four:
I'm not sure what to do if you get two born in the same year, though! ---BlackJack | talk page 17:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Come on you reds. Unfortunately I am strictly a different shade of red. However, to answer your question:
Recently I had to deal with two separate players who played in the same team, born in the same year. I can't for the life of me find the two names amongst the myriad of my subpages, but I remember the situation basically, where one I labelled Foo (born month year) and the other Foo (born month year). Again, not the most elegant of solutions, but still... Bobo. 18:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
My main query is: what about the two further above who played for the same team. Is Mohammad Aslam (1960s Karachi Greens cricketer) disambiguated enough to distinguish him from the 1980s Karachi Greens player? Bobo. 21:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I would rename Mohammad Aslam (cricketer) as Mohammad Aslam (cricketer born 1961) and as there is no DOB for the other guy, use Mohammad Aslam (1961 Karachi Greens cricketer). ---BlackJack | talk page 22:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Jack. I will get to work on relocating the pages as soon as I have written an article on the second Karachi Greens player. Bobo. 01:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Updating stats

This may not be the most original or most well-informed of ideas but is it possible to create a bot that updates stats automatically from Cricinfo or Cricketarchive? Something tells me that since these are databases, it should be possible to query them, especially now that Cricinfo has something like Statsguru. If this is an impractical idea, do let me know. I'm crap at anything that doesn't have GUI, so I don't know if the idea is genius or rubbish.(talk)raghuvansh(contribs) 20:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Indeed it's a fantastic idea, which is why it's been done! See User:Sambot. Andrew nixon (talk) 21:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Whoopsie :D You can obviously tell it's been a long time since I did any cricket articles. Just out of curiosity, how long has it been around? And I see it can do 4 updates a minute, but how effective is it? I remember updating some stats manually back in March or April and they were pretty far out of date - just wondering whether the bot was active and ineffective back then or was it not even created.(talk)raghuvansh(contribs) 06:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The bot is a couple of months old. It can do four edits a minute, yes, but the list of players is short enough that this takes just a couple of hours. By agreement with the guys who run CricketArchive, the bot only looks at current international players. Sam Korn 08:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Paul Farbrace

I'm expanding this article, so we can drop the stub tag from it, something I'm spending a fair bit of my mainspace time doing these days, which is most enjoyable.

First, can one of you clever blighters do the usual job for me and attach a nice infobox, please?

Second, one of my most common edit summaries on cricket bios is "not dead yet". Please can we all look out for past tense usage in the opening line for former cricketers who are still alive?

Consider: "Paul Farbrace was a cricketer" vs "Donald Bradman was a cricketer" vs "Paul Farbrace is a former cricketer". The first example is misleading, the second and third are factual. Thanks! --Dweller (talk) 12:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

'Box done.—MDCollins 12:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
As ever, thanks. --Dweller (talk) 14:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Amusement

This was a thrilling read, until I realized who had written most of it. Makes me wonder whether we are being read by any cricketers whose details on-Wiki, and to some extent on the Internet, are so sketchy, that we'd only be able to glean information directly from the horse's mouth, as it were. Bobo. 01:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Scraps notability, just. A nice fat duck opening the innings against Notts CB, in the first round of the C&G. Shall we humour him by adding the infobox?!—MDCollins 02:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I would say so. I have been compiling lists of List A cricketers from non-first class playing teams since yesterday and only came upon his article this way. At first I was shocked that it referred to the same individual. Bobo. 03:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I have been fairly repressive with the cn-tags and purging of the poor tone and content, to bring it back into line. SGGH speak! 10:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The article says two August Second XI fixtures, but CA says differently; one August and one September, and the latter at Aigburth and not Old Trafford as currently stated. I know CA includes a warning that Second XI coverage is not complete, but this seems plausible. I've changed it to what CA says, since that's a reliable source and the previous text was unsourced; if we get more data that overrules it, then fine. Loganberry (Talk) 01:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I've given it a bit of a copyedit/trim up, cutting some of the crapdrivel - a lot of it is probably unverifiable and can be chopped back further. Have we found the longest piece of prose for a one-List A-wonder?—MDCollins 02:33, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

On a related, but slightly different theme, I think Trevor Hohns did some editing a while back, but not, as I recall, about himself. --Dweller (talk) 11:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Another Test cricketer I've spotted (unless it's a pseudonym) is User:Rcirani. Stephen Turner (Talk) 19:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Of course, the anonymity of the system means that we might all be famous cricketers... but we will never know. Johnlp (talk) 21:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I think if I was a famous cricketer, I probably would know. Then again, I can be fairly clueless sometimes, so maybe I am. <scratches head> I'll just check on Cricinfo... --Dweller (talk) 10:50, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I played 82 Tests, and scored around 6400 runs, who am I? :D SGGH speak! 11:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I thought that was me! Are you me? --Dweller (talk) 11:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Adil Rashid

What does this article need to be rated higher than "start" class? --Dweller (talk) 15:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I just reviewed it using the B-class criteria and I think it needs a bit of attention to syntax plus a clearer structure, per these:
  • It uses good English and is free from major grammatical, syntax and spelling errors
  • It has a defined structure with a lead section and one or more sections of content
There is scope for a lot more content and obviously that would help to define the structure. The previous rating didn't incorporate the B-class criteria and so it didn't help in any way. I've rated the article as mid importance. ---BlackJack | talk page 17:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Does it not qualify as C-class? I'm a bit unsure of the project's stance on C-class articles and whether the grade is used. Nev1 (talk) 18:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Not quite. We introduced C-class to WP:CRIC only a few weeks ago and it was proposed without any opposition (and little support!) that we should grant C-class to an article if it passes the B-class criteria 1 to 4 inclusive, while it must pass all of 1 to 6 for B-class itself. This one has passed 5 and 6 but not 2 and 3, although it will surely pass those easily if someone can spare it quarter of an hour. We ought to review our C-class criteria, really. I wonder if we should say that it is C if it passes any four of the B-class criteria? ---BlackJack | talk page 20:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I'll deal with it tomorrow. I've not even read it yet <blushes>, just saw it was quite lengthy and littered liberally with sources. --Dweller (talk) 21:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
So that's why the screen went all red just now! ---BlackJack | talk page 21:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm pretty tired, but I think it's ready for review, BlackJack. --Dweller (talk) 13:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd say that's a B. There be plenty more Yorkshire stubs waiting for thi, lad, now tha's been indoctrinated. ---BlackJack | talk page 17:08, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Infobox requests

How about we keep 'em all in one place, eh? --Dweller (talk) 15:47, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Why not. Will Wikipedia:WikiProject Cricket/requested infoboxes do? I'll keep a watch on it, if a couple of others do too it should work nicely.
As an aside, sometimes with long county names the wrapping goes a bit peculiar in the domestic fixtures bit (it keeps the "Warwickshire v Somerset" bit on one line and then tries to fully justify the date of the match which looks rather silly). If this happens when previewing the changes, just force a line break before the first county "firsttype1 = <br>Warwickshire" and it doesn't justify the date.—MDCollins 00:50, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

New Zealand cricketer links

Spam or not? It certainly passes the duck test. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 23:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Spam for me SGGH speak! 14:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Alan Burridge

Hey all - wonder if you can help me. Are this guy and this guy one and the same? The biographical information on the former is somewhat scant, though I'm assuming the two are separate individuals and marking the Herefordshire cricketer as a separate individual. One is completely uncited while there's every chance either of the two has a faulty birthdate..

Assuming they are not the same individual, I was planning to write an article on the former at some point tonight. Bobo. 02:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Difficult one. I'd say both references are probably about the same person but you can't be certain. Is there anything on the Mddx CCC site about their man? Wasn't there a goalkeeper called Burridge who must be about their age? I think he was John Burridge, but he could be a brother, perhaps. ---BlackJack | talk page 07:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Impossible to say, I think. JH (talk page) 10:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
In which case, for simplicity's sake, I'll leave well alone. Thank you for clarification, Jack and JH. Bobo. 11:57, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

An image for an article...

Hi everybody,

I'm going to try to write a good article on fr: on Bodyline. But as you know, cricket is generally difficult to understand for french-speaking people (it's difficult to write on it in my language, because I need to define nearly every term in every article apart from a few ones). That's why I've created this schema to explain Bodyline (you can see it in fr:Bodyline). I'm not sure it's good enough, and I would like you to tell me what I should change on it. Of course I will add a good legend to explain it. Thanks for your comments (and if you find it good enough to be on Bodyline, be bold and add it !). OrangeKnight (talk) 21:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

first version was here, I put the new one at the end of the discussion OrangeKnight (talk) 11:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the lines showing the ball's trajectory should be straight and thinner, since it's a bird's eye view there's no need to complicate things with swing etc (although I don't think that's what's being done with the curved lines). Nev1 (talk) 21:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
It was just to show the high of the ball... I'm going to wait for a few other comments before changing the picture, if nobody find this image to ridiculous or unappropriated. OrangeKnight (talk) 21:55, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
The scale isn't right. The first ring of fielders are much closer to the batsman. Closer than even the wicket-keeper (see the first picture in the Bodyline article). Currently they are all located at square-leg or so. I think DRJ used 1-2 legslips (closer to the WK) but am not sure whether they were always there. There also used to be one of two fielders on the boundary for the hook. Tintin 06:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
The positioning of the legside fielders is inaccurate too. They did form a semi-circle as illustrated in the photograph. The number varied because, as Tintin says, Jardine sometimes sent a couple of men to reinforce the boundary. I think I read somewhere that six was the most he used in his legside ring: apart from the bowler and keeper, the others would be one offside slip, probably a guy at cover or point and certainly one on the midwicket or square leg boundary. ---BlackJack | talk page 07:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'm going to change it as soon as possible. I didn't intend to respect the scale, just to explain how it works. I just wanted to put the first ring of fielders, not the others. But you're all right, let's try to be more accurate. So what I have to do is : 1. change the arrow (straighter, thinner). 2. put the first ring of fielders closer to the batsman, even closer than the wicket-keeper. 3. put 1 or 2 of them as legslips. 4. put the close legside fielders so that they form a semi-circle around the batsman. Anything else?
To Blackjack : do you want me to draw the complete field? Legside ring + what you say (cover, etc.)? Can I keep the same scale (and not draw the square leg boundary, for example) for the main schema (to explain just the main aspects: close fielders and bowling to the leg stump), and draw a little map on the right, above the legend? Thanks a lot for all the comments you've done, and all the comments you're gonna done ! OrangeKnight (talk) 07:14, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't try to draw the whole field. I think it's enough to illustrate the pitch surround as you've done. You could add a caveat to say that the remaining fielders are placed elsewhere. ---BlackJack | talk page 07:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it's now marginally better. What do you think about this version? Thanks a lot. OrangeKnight (talk) 11:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

It looks awfully complicated. If possible, I would suggest a perspective projection instead of the top view. Another suggestion, for fielders, could you use (reuse) SVG icons listed here: commons:Category:People_icons instead? It would be useful. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Why "awfully complicated"? As for a perspective projection, I'm nearly sure I'm going to fail to do it, so we'll have to wait that someone else deals with it, I'm sorry... OrangeKnight (talk) 14:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
  1. My first impression was that the fielder was the dot, and the fielder could move either to his right or left. That what it looked like. If you could use those SVG icons, then that would give a more "human" touch to it.
  2. The initial trajectory also is weird for a new user. As you mention, not many people may be aware that the ball has to bounce, so that arrow which depicts a bounce, might be lost in the current top view.
  3. Also, I think the leg side dividing line starts from the centre of the middle stump, not the leg stump. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
OK, thank you. I'll try to fix it... OrangeKnight (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you!

My apologies for not responding earlier in the dedicated section above; I'd decided to have a few days away from Wikipedia after finishing, as I'm sure you will appreciate! I'd also like to thank the editors who cleaned up after me when I made silly mistakes, such as using the wrong county's categories. I intend to do more Worcestershire-related work when I get back to editing, since I enjoy it and since there is a lot still to be done: when Jack Flavell, a Test player with over 1,500 first-class wickets, has only one sentence and an infobox it does rather illustrate the scale of the challenge.

Thank you again for the kind words; it's much appreciated. Loganberry (Talk) 01:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Jack Flavell, like Les Jackson of Derbyshire, was a quality fast bowler who would walk into any England team of the last forty years. Unfortunately for them, they were contemporary with people called Trueman, Statham, Bedser and Tyson. Another good Worcestershire pace bowler of that time was Len Coldwell, who played in a few Test matches too. ---BlackJack | talk page 07:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd noticed how inadequate the Jack Flavell article is, and it's on my "to do" list. But the chance of my getting around to it within the next year or two is small, so I wouldn't want that to put off anyone else from working on it. JH (talk page) 10:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hardball

On the hardball disambig page, I found this: "Hardball, a type of cricket, also called hardball cricket, as distinguished from softball cricket". Does anybody know if this is true or not? It seems kind of wierd to me. Nev1 (talk) 01:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems weird to me too. Since cricket is normally played with a hard ball, the expression "hardball cricket" would seem, redundant. I've never heard it before. Perhaps the term is used only in one particular country? JH (talk page) 09:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Unsourced, so remove as OR. If there's a source, it can easily be added once more. --Dweller (talk) 09:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Removed per Dweller's reasoning. Nev1 (talk) 13:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
A quick search on google would have given you the answer. The expression is used in many different countries, including the UK, primarily when differentiating forms of junior cricket, example here. Neither hardball nor softball cricket should be redlinks – both should redirect to cricket.
Whether it needs to be included on the hardball disambiguation page is another matter. I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be, but would definitely need a better description. Although why anyone wouldn't go straight to cricket, I don't know. --bigissue (talk) 09:32, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Redlinks

If anyone feels like filling in a few redlinks, I've spent the last week or so making lists of cricketers from English non-first-class List A cricket teams (if that makes sense):

Bedfordshire Berkshire Buckinghamshire Cambridgeshire Cheshire
Cornwall Cumberland Devon Dorset Herefordshire
Hertfordshire Huntingdonshire Lincolnshire Norfolk Northumberland
Oxfordshire Shropshire Staffordshire Suffolk Wales Minor Counties
Wiltshire

I'm not sure whether I've missed any counties out. Can anyone think of any teams I haven't included? Bobo. 04:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

You've missed all the first-class county Board XI's that played in the Friends Provident for a few years. All 18 first-class counties with the exception of Glamorgan had one. Andrew nixon (talk) 07:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
So that's, xxxx Cricket Board, List A matches only, exact match. Thank you for notifying me. I will get onto it as soon as possible. Bobo. 13:48, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this, Bobo. I just really enjoyed creating an article for Devon stalwart Doug Yeabsley. 18 years of playing cricket at a decent level as a medium pacer... astonishing. --Dweller (talk) 10:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

On a similar subject, can someone please help me clean up Adrian Marsh? I got his name from my 2001 edition of Playfair, assumed he was a Derbyshire cricketer, but he didn't make any appearances for the team. His Cricket Archive page is here, his match list is here.
If nobody sees this between now and two hours time, then don't worry - I will rewrite it when I am free this evening. Bobo. 15:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm confused. Stub says he played f-c cricket, but cricinfo and cricket archive disagree. Is it loose language, or are they wrong - the latter is not that unusual... although their mistakes aren't usually so glaring. --Dweller (talk) 16:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
He didn't. I made a mistake when I originally wrote the article. I need to go back and clear it up. I took his name from Playfair 2001, and assumed that because he was a team-member, he made first-class appearances. It wasn't until quite a while afterwards when I had completed all names in Playfair 2001 that I realized he actually hadn't played first-class cricket. Bobo. 18:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Simplest solution, I've just removed the first sentence of the second paragraph. Doesn't read particularly nicely at the moment but it will do for now. Bobo. 18:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Have we covered the players who turned out for Durham CCC in List A matches before the county achieved first-class status in 1992? I tried searching for Frank Greenshields (on the basis of him having one of the best-ever names for a cricketer) and couldn't find him. Johnlp (talk) 22:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Not yet, thank you for the heads-up. I haven't time to make the list now, but I shall indeed make a List A-only list of Durham cricketers — of course the first-class list remains at User:Bobo192/Durham redlinks — I believe there are around eleven names left if anyone wants to grab some. Bobo. 22:44, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Oracle on CricketArchive

Is there any way that one can get a static URL to reference it, eg in Ron Halcombe? YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 08:16, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I may not fully understand what you're trying to do but I think you need to cite specific pages such as match scorecards, player profiles or season summaries. The oracle search results are temporary; they expire as soon as you move away and they can't be linked to another site. Hope this helps. ---BlackJack | talk page 08:44, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
You need to type enough of the name so that you have multiple options when you get to the results screen. So for Ron Halcombe you would type Halcombe, and as there are three Halcombes when you click on RA Halcombe you will have a permanent URL.
For most cricketers using the surname will normally give you a number of options, if it doesnt then you just need to shorten the surname. An example would be Tim Zoehrer who as the only Zoehrer on the system, CA takes you straight to the matches he's played but the URL will be useless, so type 'Zoe', that will give you options and when you click on TJ Zoehrer you will now have a permanent link. Probably not the clearest explanation but hopeful it helps. --Jpeeling (talk) 09:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, very cunning! YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 23:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

County Cricket Boards

Mainly for players of minor counties List A cricket, how do we link to the County Cricket Board XIs? I assume that none of them have articles. I tend to link to the full county and pipe the cricket board [[Derbyshire County Cricket Club|Derbyshire Cricket Board]] but is there a better/more correct way?—MDCollins 01:11, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Good point. That's what I would do in the situation and to be honest I was awaiting further confirmation before I made further articles for players who have solely played for Cricket Board XI's, but for no "counties", so to speak - to take two randomly-picked examples for whom it would be easiest to write articles, Joseph Greenhalgh 43970 and Dave Hallack 45344.
And from this, what about categorization? Presumably not Category:Countyx cricketers, because no CB teams have individual categories, unless things have changed since I last looked. Bobo. 02:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that piping to the corresponding County Club is misleading, because the County Board is - AIUI - a completely separate organisation (though the County Club may provide some secretarial support). Creating a separate article for each County Board would probably be exdessive, but what about creating an article entitled something like "English County Cricket Boards", and piping all references to specific County Boards to that? I think that the ECB website probably supplies enough information for such an article to be written. JH (talk page) 10:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Wally Grout

Wally Grout was my grandmother's favourite cricketer. His book is very funny, but jumps all over the place. I am expanding his article for a DYK but it is very uneven (i.e some bis in greta detail without 'core' material being added) and the book doesn't have first class stats in it. If no-one minds I can keep plugging as is, but I would welcome anyone else joining in to add the basic stats etc. I have not expanded a cricket article before. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:11, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

You've helped many a cricket FA along its way and I'll be proud to help you with this. Grout's always been a bit of a hero of mine, partly because his name's so quirky. --Dweller (talk) 14:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Cool - the book is very funny with lots of amusing anecdotes and turns of phrase in it. My additions will be a bit chronological as I am adding as I am reading (and chuckling). Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
PS: WRT Grout, the book I have was written before he died, so I don't have any info on that. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

WP:AUS 200 GA drive - Australian cricket

Oh yes, at the Australia WikiProject, were trying to rally the troops to partipate in a drive for 200 GAs for the end of the year or Australia Day next year. I'm going to get cracking on some of improving some of the relatively complete articles on Australian cricket that I had started, including some from the Invincibles and captains. I guess that give a good excuse to try and resuscitate the collaborations on those topics, which are flagging a bit. I see that Sam Loxton and Doug Ring have all the fundamentals in good shape. Arise my friends. And yes, it would be great to see non-Australians take part too of course! YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 08:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Wally Grout? (see below) --Dweller (talk) 11:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, Bob Simpson (cricketer) is fairly substantial too, a bigger ask though, and Richie Benaud...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
A few other sort of done ones from me 1948 Ashes series, Bill Lawry and a few others. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 05:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Clem Hill

Clem Hill has been chosen as the featured article for 19 December, through some process of which I remain entirely ignorant, but grateful that it will be showcased. I would very much appreciate some sets of eyes having a look over the article before it is shown on the main page. Thanks, Mattinbgn\talk 06:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

There's a process of main page requests, but I can't find any nomination for this one. Actually, December 19th is the date of the end of the f-c match during which he did his 365*. Did he reach this score on December 19th or a day earlier? OrangeKnight (talk) 15:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the stumps scores, it appears it was the day before. Still, it's a nice symmetry. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 00:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I've added links to his many brothers in the infobox, I'll try and "blue link" them at some point today/tomorrow, but if anyone else gets a minute, it'd be useful. They're all linked from his CA profile.—MDCollins 09:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

What has shocked me the most in the article was clicking on the link to Vernon Ransford and finding there was all of six lines on him. --Roisterer (talk) 10:18, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Raul654 chooses the main page articles. Main page requests fills some of the slots per month, but Raul does much of the work. I think he does a very good job of what is quite a tricky balancing act. His selections often attract ire of different types, but it's ire reminiscent of WP:POLE to me. --Dweller (talk) 10:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I've done two of the brothers and the nephew. Did the talent dry out in those generations, or are there other Hill descendant ready to thrash the Poms of a new era? --Dweller (talk) 11:41, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Basil D'Oliveira

While creating an article on D'Oliveira on fr:, I saw that there are some little mistakes about games he played either on CI or on CA. On CA, they tell that he played first-class games for the SACB's Eastern Province in the Dadabhay Trophy. On CI, the same games are stated as organised by the SACBOC. I went a lot more lost when I saw that for Wisden (2006), it was a SACB tourmament (see this article about the fact that Dadabhay Trophy games became first-class), whereas this book tells it is a SACBOC tourmament. So who's right?

Apart from this, don't you think that Dadabhay Trophy (which is now first-class, according to the Wisden link) and South African Cricket Board of Control both deserve an article? (edit: and I add D'Oliveira Affair... separate article or not? OrangeKnight (talk) 21:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC))

OrangeKnight (talk) 20:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I have Peter Oborne's biography of D'Oliveira at home and will see what it says this AEST evening. As for the two three redlinks above, articles are a must! Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 21:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The annual attempt

There's several things that are garunteed to happen at least once a year. Various religious festivals, New Year's Day, April Fools Day and an attempt to move Cricket to Cricket (sport). Without wanting to sound like I'm canvassing, I'd suggest people head over to Talk:Cricket to head off the latest attempt at the proverbial pass. Andrew nixon (talk) 09:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Just don't mention tigers ;) –Moondyne 09:54, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I've put a FAQ up. I was trying to be careful not to make it think like I was being anti-American when replying to the "mostly only British people have heard of cricket" hope the user didn't think I was being so. SGGH speak! 12:38, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
An interesting statistic: on an encyclopedia dominated by Americans, cricket is the more popular than baseball. So if "mostly only British people have heard of cricket", I suppose mostly only American people have heard of baseball ;-) Nev1 (talk) 18:18, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it's all those Americans going there looking for an insect... Oh, no, of course not. Johnlp (talk) 18:37, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Anybody to suggest to move Wikipedia:WikiProject Cricket to Wikipedia:WikiProject Cricket (sport)? Anybody to create a WikiProject especially for the insect? OrangeKnight (talk) 18:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Note to self

Nothing to see here guys, just a note to self that I need to redirect John Hulme to John Hulme (cricketer, born 1862) and replace the original page with a disambiguation page. Bobo. 17:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

WP:CRICKET : Fun for the whole family? •grin• Bobo. 17:57, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Infobox links

What would be the more appropriate link for the team that Henry Hill (Australian cricketer) made his debut against, Marylebone Cricket Club or England cricket team? I am using MCC in the interim but not wedded to it if others feel otherwise.

English cricket team in Australia in 1903-04 is also possible. Johnlp (talk) 09:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
I think the way I set it up was quite a good balance of information and not falling into anachronism. --Dweller (talk) 10:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
It was the link in the infobox I was particularly interested in; the one you placed in the article looked fine to me. Any ideas on that one? -- Mattinbgn\talk 10:55, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Whoops. Apologies for that. Perhaps I'd go with Marylebone Cricket Club (England)? or MCC (England)? It needs to work quite hard! --Dweller (talk) 11:04, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
I like the second one and have used that, unless someone else comes up with a better idea. Thanks. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 11:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I think the link used should simply be Marylebone Cricket Club, because that's the team that he played against! The England tours of this time were essentially MCC tours, and they took on the guise of England for the Test matches. Andrew nixon (talk) 15:48, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
This particular one was the first one that MCC organised, I think, the tours before being rather more ad hoc or individualistic. I like MCC (England), Dweller's second one, because it takes a reader directly to a (very short) report of the match on that particular tour. But I think all tour articles such as English cricket team in Australia in 1903-04 should have a link through to Marylebone Cricket Club as the organiser where it's appropriate. My thinking is that a reader who starts out from Henry Hill (Australian cricketer) would be more likely to want to progress in that direction, rather than directly through MCC - or at least I think I would. Johnlp (talk) 16:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
That's a good point John, but I'm in line with Andrew for the infobox (as it is the team he played against), with Dweller's more direct link linked in the prose. We should be wary of Easter Eggs - as Dweller's link does not go where you expect (which would be to the team). I can go with [[Marylebone Cricket Club|MCC (England)]] if necessary so as not to confuse it with Melbourne Cricket Club. Another idea would be to link "South Australia v MCC" to the match report, but that is a bit excessive and would cause problems anyway.—MDCollins 23:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Clem Hill - main page

Hi,

User:T-rex has "wikified (using Advisor.js)" Clem Hill - can somebody just check the edit?

It appears that mostly the html ndashes have been replaced by –, but whether these are proper ndashes or just hyphens I can't tell. I'm not quite sure what he has achieved. I know personally I prefer seeing the html dashes as it is clearly obvious what is being produced: 1935–37 (1935&ndash;37) rather than 1935-37 (which looks ok when editing, but is incorrect).

Probably not important, and it's probably just fine, but it's on my mind. —MDCollins 00:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Sehwagology

Take a look before it gets nuked! YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, cwb isn't a bad blog; at least I find it amusing. -- Mattinbgn\talk 03:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

1 liners on English Test cricketers

How many articles on English Test cricketers are one-liners, like Fred Ridgway was until a couple of hours ago? Is there an easy way to generate a list? I'm interested in expanding them. If not, what about a list intersecting English Test cricketers and stubs? --Dweller (talk) 15:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

User:CricketBot/stubs used to do this job but hasn't been updated for a while. It's a starting place. Johnlp (talk) 15:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Personally I think it's a disgrace to the project that we have stub articles for any Test cricketer. I think we should make it our new year's resolution that we will have no stubs for Test players by the end of 2009. Andrew nixon (talk) 15:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
I agree, Andrew, but we need some kind of list to work from. Cricket bot? --Dweller (talk) 15:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Isn't intersecting English Test cricketers and stubs basically Category:English international cricketer stubs given that these substubs are often older players who won't have played ODIs.
Having checked that category there's 26 one-liners - Wilf Barber, Fred Barratt, Bill Bradley, Don Brennan, Eddie Dawson, Sep Kinneir, David Larter, Harry Lee, Geoffrey Legge, Jack Mason, Jack O'Connor, Buddy Oldfield, Gilbert Parkhouse, Winston Place, Dick Pollard, John Price, Roger Prideaux, Reg Simpson, David Smith, Donald Smith, Jim Smith, George B. Street, Paul Taylor, Bryan Valentine, Len Wilkinson and George Wood. --Jpeeling (talk) 17:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
I'll suspend my meanderings through obscure (but still deeply notable) Somerset players to try to add a bit to some of these. I'll start with Fred Bassett, er Fred Barratt. Johnlp (talk) 19:33, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
There are four Lancs players there (Len Wilkinson, Dick Pollard, Winston Place, and Gilbert Parkhouse), I'll see if I can make a start on those. Nev1 (talk) 20:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Parkhouse. Not Parkin! But you can have Oldfield instead. ;-) Johnlp (talk) 20:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Oops, you're right, I meant Buddy Oldfield not Parkhouse. It's pretty bad when the bit about Oldfield in the notable people section of his home town is longer than the one sentence article. Nev1 (talk) 22:03, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Taken care of the Lancs players, three are much better (no longer stubs) but I couldn't find much about Pollard despite him playing over 300 matches and is still a stub (not a one liner though). Nev1 (talk) 17:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Good stuff. Well done. I'll give Pollard a further go when I've done with Barratt, if you like. Johnlp (talk) 18:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
By the way, why "Cec" Parkin, whereas CA give Cecil Parkin and CI give Ciss Parkin? and fr: give Ciss, too, but it's not a reference ;) OrangeKnight (talk) 20:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Can't remember: there was a bit of a debate here way back, because I think the article was originally "Ciss" and various of us felt that we'd never look for or find him under that pronunciation. "Cec" was probably a compromise. Anyway, "Cecil" defaults to it, which I wasn't sure that it would when I typed it above. Johnlp (talk) 21:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


I hope you will excuse a wet bob sticking an oar in here, but I have noticed that a considerable number of cricketers are interesting beyond the field of cricket - in other sports, politics, business etc. That the project only presents the cricket side of the story is not a problem, as in several instances I (and presumably other editors) have been able to add the other information and it is great to have a base to work on. It seems better therefore to let the cricket project work their magic in creating the articles first, as my experience has been that if articles are created outside the cricket sphere the cricket story does not get developed - which is a great pity. I quote Alfred Cochrane as an example of this. There is a good chance that those who played for more than one team (eg university, MCC, minor international) will be more widely notable, and the more interesting cricketers anyway will those that have a fuller career even if obscure. In this context it has been a bit frustrating to see huge numbers of articles created for players who scored a duck in one match, and just when I thought they were all done the exercise moved down a league. That is not to denigrate the enthusiasm and good work but it does seem it would help cricket and wiki to prioritorise in descending rather than ascending order of achievement - otherwise people may keep on confusing the sport with croquet!:) Regards Motmit (talk) 21:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

In fairness, what's being proposed is expanding articles on international cricketers, who have often had productive careers otherwise. Players who play one first-class match will often have virtually nothing to write about them, but people who have represented their country are generally better covered in sources and are more notable. Nev1 (talk) 21:22, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Umm - I think that is exactly the point I am making - but I am taking it down to county level as well as this is also given as a matter of concern above. Regards Motmit (talk) 21:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
When creating articles I make an effort to find out if the subject has other claims to notability besides his cricket, but that isn't always easy to do. One problem is that Wisden obituaries, which are a major source, tend to focus on the subject's cricket almost to the exclusion of all else. JH (talk page) 21:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Seems that for Surrey you have created lists by priority and which identify articles on cricketers created outside the cricket project - my hope was that this would be done for all counties. It is the Wisden expertise that the general editor lacks, but finding the other claims to notability is something was can help with and enjoy. (Sorry wrong bro above) Motmit (talk) 12:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I can get a list. Someone created this program for me where you can input a list of articles and it brings back a list of all their sizes. Then it is pretty easy after that. The old style infobox took up about 1.3k so that tells you which ones are really small. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 23:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is the script. you just have to dump in all the names from that, 100 at a time, and it will print out each article's size. It seems to not work at the moment although I used it before. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 00:26, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

List of short articles is here!

Simply use the sortable table to see which articles are really short. I calculated mean article length for each country (raw file size including refs and infoboxes) and it is roughly: Australia 10.13 kb, England 6.36, India 6.23, Bangladesh 5.4, Sri Lanka 5.3, Pakistan 4.1, South Africa 3.7, WI 3.7 Zimbabwe 3.5, NZ 3.3. In terms of median, approximately, Eng 4430, Ban 4088, Aus 3142, Ind 3050, SL 2857, Zim 2667, WI 2428, NZ 2121, RSA 1850, Pak 1744.

So I guess the ones with the lowest medians have a higher % of stubs. In terms of mean/median ratio, Australia is the highest, indicating a notable minority of large articles skewing the mean. Bangladesh and Zimbabwe have the least, indicating that most are relatively similar in size. I think the median/mean for Bangladesh and Zimbabwe I think are relatively high because they've only played in the last 20 years, and because of recentism a lot of people know about all of them, so most have a bit more than one line and a higher median. Whereas with Australia/England there are heaps of oldtimers who have 1-line articles, and the mean is much higher compared to the median due to a significant minority of large articles. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 05:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

A quick check on the Australian file shows 404 entries of which 180 have a length of 2600 or less. That figure (2600) seems to be about the cut-off for the identification of a "stub". So approx 45% are stubs. A tad high.
But thanks for the work on this. It certainly helps to identify those articles needing work.--Perry Middlemiss (talk) 05:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately I don't have any cunning means of getting a prose size, because if the article has a new infobox, the cutoff will be higher as the new infobox has more intricacies. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 06:48, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Have a banana - this is great work, thanks. --Dweller (talk) 12:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. No excuses now... Johnlp (talk) 17:29, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

3 Tests played at the same time

Yesterday I noticed that there were 3 Tests being played at the same time (Australia vs S. Africa, India vs England and West Indies vs New Zealand). Has this happened before? Have more than 3 ever been played at the same time? This is when someone tells me it's not that much of a rarity...! Lugnuts (talk) 15:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Quite common, especially the Boxing day test. 26 Dec – AUS, RSA, NZL. =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:30, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm fairly sure there have been four but not five before. Let me see if I can dig it out. Stephen Turner (Talk) 17:24, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
21 March 1998: IND v AUS, RSA v SL, WI v ENG, ZIM v PAK. New Zealand were the unlucky team to miss out on the fun (Bangladesh weren't a Test team at the time). None of the four matches was drawn. Stephen Turner (Talk) 17:37, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Great, you got it. I was about to suggest that 4 concurrent Tests did take place in the past, and it PAK-ZIM was one of the four. Alastair Campbell was the captain and the series was mostly fogged out I think. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
And here's an article by our own User:Travisbasevi from August 2006 about the most international matches (Tests and ODIs) on one day. The record of four was about to be broken. And at least at that time, the occasion I just cited was the only incidence of four Tests on the same day. Stephen Turner (Talk) 17:43, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! Lugnuts (talk) 18:28, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
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