User talk:Zad68/Archive 2013 May

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Thanks and request

Hi Zad68, I appreciate the initiative you have taken at TM talk. Very generous. When you can get to it, could you also please include in your list the dozen RS’s deleted from the article under protest last month [1]? You will see these same sources cited in the similar text which introduces the ‘mother’ TM research article [2]. In case it is any help, I noticed today a link to some annotations another ed has made re: some of these sources [3]. Thanks kindly. EMP (talk 17:32, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello EMP, I will look, but my strategy will be to finish the existing list first before I add to it. Zad68 18:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

That's certainly understandable. Fine, whenever you can get to it--thanks! EMP (talk 17:00, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

You are evil.

Funny, but evil. :)

- Manning (talk) 03:05, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Muhahahahahaaa.... Zad68 03:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Yoga project

Dear Zad, regarding your good faith edit here. I think that the term yoga refers to many forms of Indian spiritual development. Hatha yoga (the bending and twisting) is just one form of yoga but there are many others like Kriya Yoga which involves meditation. Though I would not personally call TM by the name yoga, the Yoga Project does consider articles on Meditation to be within the scope of its project (see here) and it would seem appropriate from that perspective to include the Yoga Project tag on the TM talk page. Best, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:28, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, feel free to go ahead and restore it, I don't mind. It just seemed like the editor doing the category adding wasn't being very discriminating, but as you have the domain knowledge there regarding TM, fine with me. Zad68 14:36, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I completely understand your action. On the surface it seems that Hatha yoga (physical postures) has nothing to do with TM, but the term yoga also has a bigger context as I've explained. I'll alert the original editor about this discussion and see if they want to add it back in. Thanks for your flexibility. Cheers! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:58, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Re: May 2013

The user is not going to see or care about the notice. Alex2564 (talk) 04:09, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Alex, yes I restored your replacement of the tag, sorry about that. Zad68 04:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Axonae

Zad thank you for your response regarding the changes made (and since rejected) to the Caprylidene article. Please advise as what needs to be done to make the page acceptable by Wikipedia. The revisions included comprehensive, sourced information, as well as information about side effects, adverse events, and efficacy. AxonaForAD

Someone else used your content to make the article Axona. Does that work for you and your client who hired you to write the article? Zad68 00:31, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Genital mutilation without consent IS violence against men

Hi Ranze, I hope you don't mind but I moved this conversation to the article Talk page, I like to keep all content-specific conversations at the article. Zad68 14:00, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

This discussion was moved to Talk:Genital_modification_and_mutilation#Zad68 Zad68 14:00, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Burns

Have attempted to address all the concerns. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Excellent, will review over next few days. Zad68 18:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Homeopathy DRN

I suspect that the reason Altunc doesn't reference Malik is that Altunc looked for studies of homoeopathy for childhood and adolescence ailments, while Malik investigated use of CAM (mostly homoeopathy) for breast cancer. Brunton (talk) 07:57, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

You're probably right. Here is what tripped me up, in Altunc's Discussion it sounds more general, not limited to pediatrics:

Homeopathic remedies are generally regarded as safe. Only a few mild adverse events were reported in the reviewed RCTs (Table 1). This finding is supported by several postmarketing surveillance studies, which reported only a few adverse events. However, homeopathy is not totally devoid of risks. According to homeopathic beliefs, aggravations of symptoms occur in approximately 20% of patients. Also, it may delay effective treatment or diagnosis. One example for this is the reluctance of some homeopaths to recommended immunizations.

which made me think Malik would have been found useful. But, after digging into the sources cited and the underlying sources those sources cited, I'm seeing Altunc is careful to limit his sourcing to those that discuss pediatrics only. Thanks for this, I'll make a note at DRN. Gah, getting it right is hard! Zad68 13:10, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Child protection#Images

Hey, Zad. Considering our recent comments about WP:Offensive material, I figured that you may want to comment on the "Wikipedia talk:Child protection#Images" discussion. Or maybe anyone who watches your talk page wants to. I've already commented on the matter. If you have no interest in commenting on it, that's fine of course. I thought of you while commenting there and decided to let you know about that discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 03:23, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the pointer. That is a difficult issue. My initial reaction is "Support of course!" but after reading some of the responses there I'm now at "Heading in the right direction but not there yet." I don't want to throw up an "Oppose as currently written" without thinking about it for a bit and coming up with constructive suggestions, but I do plan on contributing there. Zad68 01:50, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. And similarly to your thoughts, I'm thinking of retracting my support "vote." Flyer22 (talk) 04:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Visual editor

So do you like it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I like being able to see the results of what I edit as I edit.

Very buggy, can introduce sneaky errors, doesn't handle the most fundamental thing - citing sources, can't trust it.

Bottom line: Heading in a nice direction but nowhere near ready for prime time. Still, I'm a geek and I like playing around with new gadgets, so I'll try editing with it every once in a while. Zad68 02:33, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

By the way many thanks for the review. Article is much better than when we started. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:46, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

My pleasure! It's an important article with global relevance, great work. Zad68 02:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

ADHD

I will probably make further comments. Were should I make them? Talk page? Review Page? If in the review page where specifically? Long time since my last GA review and had not seen the fancy templates now used. Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 06:39, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Sure, if the comments are about the article's compliance with GA requirements, feel free to make them in the appropriate sections on the GA review page itself, just sign your comments. Zad68 13:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I have added comments on a few sources in GAN whereas I have left comments on prose and content in talk page for the moment.--Garrondo (talk) 06:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Regarding your comment

In general I'm concerned about the sourcing. There's far too many individual articles being used to support just one or two facts in the article. I feel like we're getting a scattershot view of the disorder in the article, and not a homogeneous overview with the various symptoms and related concepts selected and presented in due weight.

I would say that that is indeed a hint for improvement, but that it should not be a problem for GAN according to GA criteria. Am I wrong?--Garrondo (talk) 06:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes and no. The GA requirements only require WP:RS sourcing for certain types of information, and there's no requirement that sources need to be reused or used to exhaustion. However, the way the article is sourced opens up questions about compliance with WP:UNDUE, which is part of WP:NPOV policy, which is a GA requirement. Generally a single or a few high-level secondary sources should be "driving" the article content to provide the scope of what the article will cover and prevent undue weight being given to very minor subtopics. I'm putting the question out to MrADHD and I'd like to see his response. Zad68 12:52, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I would have the opposite view - if only a few review articles are used to drive the bulk of the sourced content then there is the risk of undue weight as reviews and individual authors can be biased financially or otherwise. Also because there is such an enormous amount of literature, reviews tend to focus on and review only one narrow aspect of the disorder.--MrADHD | T@1k? 12:14, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

On a different point - I have made some changes as requested to the article sourcing. Should I or yourself update the table? I am a bit nervous to touch the table, lest I do something wrong. :=)--MrADHD | T@1k? 12:14, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I forgot to say thanks for taking the GAN review - thanks Zad! And hello from me. :-)--MrADHD | T@1k? 14:41, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

sorry! Will make progress asap. Zad68 22:19, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Will be doing more source reviews today, wow the article has a lot of sources. Zad68 15:40, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

ADHD

I am really messed up with another article, and I do not think I will have much time for the ADHD evaluation, however I will continue if I have some. Nevertheless: I might be wrong, but I really think that a GAN review is not really needed to be so intensive. I would say that sourcing, balance, and quantity of content have to be of acceptable (goog) quality, but it does not need to be perfect. It is not a FA article review. I would say that if after a couple of readings of the article, source checking (as you have done) and maybe diagonally reading 2 or 3 of the most important sources if you are not an expert in the topic, no big issues stand out it should be a GA. Moreover, from what I have checked in the ADHD article, it probably fits into this category even if there are hundreds of things to improve to become a FA. Nevertheless, as I said: only my opinion. Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 20:38, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Garrondo, sorry to hear, are you having trouble with other editors or are you just behind on your own article development? Let me know if I can help. And you're right I may need to be a bit more realistic how I'm applying the GA standards.Zad68 02:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

No real problems with other editors. I'm updating the multiple sclerosis article (A FA) and I want to finish it soon, and now I do not have as much time as I used to.Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 06:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

4 year old brown trees

Seriously? Surely "female" GM is cognate to "brown" trees? Are you really equating the distinction about people who can't consent to GM (minors) with articles about a specific year of tree age? I've never heard such a bad example. This brigade you participate in is quite successful at quelling the representation of real ideas, I guess that has to be respected in a gritty fashion.

Even if sourcing issues and your culling of content lead to a brief DicDef state I don't see why that means the thing has to be annihilated. Having looked at the sources, and at culture in general, I think you know full well this is a valid issue. Why the instinct is simply to destroy content, I don't fathom. If half the people tried to actually aid creation they could build something. I feel a sense of shame over the inability to find sources to fit the impossible standards people seem to want nowadays, but I'm confident these would no doubt come in time, a 'build it they will come' logic, when we know by common sense and by exposure to mass news and movements that an issue is an important one. Ranze (talk) 19:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Ranze, when an argument is being made about an emotional subject, it is sensible to make an analogous argument using a completely unemotional subject to show the logic of the argument without the emotion getting in the way of seeing the argument clearly. It's clear you have very strong personal feelings about the subject. The "brown tree" analogy was not even based on an argument I raised: At the AFD, editor User:Jay-Sebastos who filed the AFD report made the argument "This is simply an adjective attached to a term" and my analogy was just an example of that argument.

Nothing is being "annihilated", "quelled", "culled" or "destroyed", there is no "brigade" to be "respected in a gritty fashion", and it's troubling you'd use emotive or WP:BATTLEGROUND terms like that over a simple content discusison. As was nearly unanimously suggested at the AFD, obtain reliable sources and, if they're sufficient, develop the content. Doing the development in your own userspace, as you've discussed elsewhere, is a good idea. If you're having trouble finding high-quality reliable sources, as you seem to be indicating, maybe that means the topic you'd like to develop isn't ready to develop yet as a separate article. There is no need to feel "shame", which is an emotional response to a content discussion. Per WP:BURDEN it's your responsibility to bring the sources, the "build it they will come" model isn't really supported on Wikipedia for the kind of article you suggested.

Finally, I was only one of at least a dozen editors who disagreed with the creation of the article, and I was not even the one who started the AFD, so it's very puzzling to me why you would single me out on this and not any of the other editors (some of them admins) who participated. Zad68 21:32, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

My point, I guess, is that not all adjectives are equal. I view 'brown' as a significant describer of trees, since there are so many brown trees. If I were to guess ~half trees had brown trunks it'd be like saying ~half humans are female. The '4 year' tree thing though, trees could be hundreds of years old, so that kind of adjective is a drop in the bucket. An article about minors (humans 1-18 years) is a much broader category for an adjective to describe, so it's not as useless specific. If I had mad an article called "4 year old genital mutilation" then your example would have been appropriate.

I would like it if this were a simple content discussion, but it is not solely discussion, because discussion resulted from your removal of content from the template (and maybe some other stuff? hard to keep track of) and I'm conversing here out of not wanting to non-productively revert-war.

The singling is based mostly on the absurdity of the example. I take issue with others' objections too but at least with the reference-asking there wasn't a reduction to absurdity with the examples, I was hoping to clarify why such an example seemed rather mocking, as I would never made an article about 4 year old trees. Maybe it was meant as a joke, I don't have the best sense of humor and don't pick up on that, seems like a serious issue like this isn't something good to joke about though.

This whole burden or insta-kill policy on articles, is it something recent? This isn't what I thought Wikipedia was. The way to establish reliability of sources, to seek out reliable sources on the net, seems so vague and confusing it's really hard to know what we're supposed to be finding here. I referenced lots of scholarly books and rather than explaining the problems with using them, people just rejected them without explaining why they were wrong. I thought we were supposed to be citing books, and that's what I was doing.

What's frustrating is maybe you even did explain why, you linked to the talk page, and I wanted to read what you wrote, but that got deleted too, and unless I can get someone to userfy it, I can't even read the rebuttal you put time into writing. It's a frustrating way to work. When stuff isn't obvious spam (which I think consensus can at least agree this isn't) I wish instead of deletion things would just get moved into incubation so people can keep working. This really interrupts the process of sourcing when all sources get nuked.

The terms used on this page could've gotten redirected to the GM article too, to preserve their histories, and discussed on the GM talk page. I'm wondering why nobody was advocating for this whilst talking about how we could totally expand the GM article to discuss the content. Ranze (talk) 23:10, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Ranze, your willingness to discuss and work through this is awesome and I really appreciate it.

Regarding my analogy, all I can do is reiterate what I said: I used the tree analogy to illustrate the argument in a dispassionate way, using a non-emotional topic. Unfortunately that seems to have backfired because it made you more upset thinking I was either joking or making a reductio ad absurdum argument, and I wasn't meaning to do either. Based on your response "If I had made an article called "4 year old genital mutilation" then your example would have been appropriate", I think you're missing the point of the argument, which was stated in the AFD initiator's statement: "This is simply an adjective attached to a term".

Regarding how article deletion discussions are handled and resolved, the way this one was handled was very normal. If anything it was a little unusual because it ran for eight days instead of the normal seven, so there was a little extra discussion time before it was closed. Otherwise it was a very run-of-the-mill AFD discussion and closure. I am not sure why you are calling it "insta-kill", it was not a speedy deletion (and would not have qualified for one), it was a normal AFD that ran for the full normal duration, in the typical way Wikipedia has been doing them for years, it's not any sort of new process at all. Regarding WP:BURDEN, that too has been policy for years, at least dating back to 2006 (according to my look through the history of WP:V). Nothing new here.

I think what you might be confusing is a newly-created article about a totally new topic and an article like the one you created that is very closely related to an existing topic's article. For a newly-created article on a totally new topic: even if the article's sourcing upon being created is really poor, if it goes to WP:AFD, the !voters should try to find sourcing supporting the topic. If enough can be found, the article should be kept. I've done exactly that in many AFD discussions I've participated in. However, if the new article is closely related to an existing topic: you must show that sources treat the topics in a significantly different enough manner to warrant two separate articles, otherwise the article won't stand on its own per WP:REDUNDANTFORK or WP:POVFORK. This is what happened to the article you created.

So, finally getting down to the sourcing for the new article you created, I had Drmies restore the Talk page with the comments on the sourcing and userify it for you. Basically the sourcing was insufficient. It looks like you just did a Google Book search and copied in the book snippets without really looking at the quality of the books returned in the search result, or looking at the context and the depth of coverage each book gave to the topic - that's a really poor way to try to source an article. I'm happy to go over the sourcing with you, and we should do that here. I have that page Watchlisted, feel free to make comments there and I'll respond there. Thanks... Zad68 02:57, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I didn't miss the point at all, I just don't agree with a "it's just an adjective" mentality, since adjectives are often affixed to make new articles about a particular topic, and an adjective can never just be an adjective since all adjectives have meanings. The only way I could see it lack meaning would be is if it made a nonsensical phrase that didn't describe something that existed. Something like "anarchist trees" for example would be 'just an adjective'. The adjective combination in this case describes a real thing, a real victim category, who has been referenced on multiple occasions.

I suppose the 'insta-kill' is just my sense of time, a week seems to go by quickly. I may forget to check on some topics (or processes) for days, or even the full week, and come back and see it's done without a chance to counterpoint. Even when counterpoints are put in, it's frustrating to feel like they get ignored with more chiming of "as per X" type posts.

The forking policy seems to assume PoV or redundancy too easily though, I think. I don't understand how to resolve when viewpoints differ here. It can't be redundant because we don't have a central GenMut article (we have a GenMod and a FemGenMut) so a major issue (the mutilation of the inherently non-consenting will only receive a secondary focus as a mear section, and in the case of FGM it only addresses half of the victims. Emphasizing child victims is hardly PoV since we do this in many others instances (thus why I reference articles like CA/CSA). There just seems to be like... a lack of constency or pattern here with how Wikipedia approaches issues. It's like in one issue, in one context, we present things through a gendered lens, in others through an age lens, and in rare instances, sometimes both or neither.

If the move is to have consistency based on existing fairer examples I'm not really clear on why we can't do that and have an emphasis article when it reflects a specific and unique topic that neither falls solely under the umbrella of FGM with its focus on adult women and lack of focus on boy victims.

I could have a go at expanding the promising MGM redirect but it occurred to me that reinforcing the gender dichotomy existing here isn't necessarily in the best interests of neutrality, and that introducing a more important consent-based narative was the thing to try. Ranze (talk) 00:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah the weeks do feel like they're blowing by!

Ranze, I want to focus on just one thing here, the following statement:

If the reliable sourcing for two different aspects of a topic do not treat the topic equally across those two aspects, then, according to Wikipedia policy, the Wikipedia content should also not treat them equally.

Agree or disagree? Zad68 02:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

In spirit, I disagree and wish this weren't the case, but I recognize it's the rules and can go by that. My disagreement I guess is moreso along the lines of why Party A viewpoint espousers get the "ol' reliable" label whereas Party B is constantly denied it. Ranze (talk) 03:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Good, I'm glad to hear you'll accept that this is the way Wikipedia content policy works, even if you don't like it. That statement happens to be the answer to why many of your recent change discussions, like this one for example, aren't going your way. They all have pretty much the same answer: Wikipedia doesn't have a parallel taxonomy/nomenclature or treatment because the sourcing doesn't treat them equally. When the prepuce is cut from a male, it's discussed as "circumcision"; when it's done to a female it's "female genital mutilation" (although they're not really parallel like that, in FGM often more is removed). Wikipedia article content will reflect that, whether or not it seems fair or egalitarian. Wikipedia isn't the place that one can right great wrongs. But, if in 10 years (or whenever), circumcision is looked upon in authoritative reliable sourcing as "male mutilation", then Wikipedia article content will change to reflect that at that time.

To discuss a particular source, we'd also need the article and proposed content at the article to determine the source's fitness, and as I pointed out elsewhere, the problem probably won't be WP:RS but WP:DUEWEIGHT. Zad68 03:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

This kinda makes me wonder, we don't have male mutilation or female mutilation articles or redirects. They kinda make sense, I imagine in short-speak the 'genital' is often dropped. In a way it's almost implied since the specification of gender already narrows it down to an attack on a gender-specific body part. Awesome, btw, did not even know that one had an article. I brought up at talk:male genital mutilation a paper I had found which uses the term in its title, was wondering what your opinion was on whether or not it's a good source. Ranze (talk) 20:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Good... Well as it always does, it comes back to the sources: Are there sources to support splitting the development of articles on human mutilation into "male" and "female"? If so, yes; if not, no. If every source (or nearly every) that talks about "male mutilation" is really talking about "male genital mutilation" and there really aren't other types of "male mutilation" that are specific to men but separate from "male genital mutilation" then we won't have a separate article. I see you found Body modification already... I'm not actually sure the edit you made there adding "called mutliation by detractors" is supported by sources, is it? Regarding the source, first, I'm really happy you're looking for good sources, that's the right approach. There are some good anthropology resources on this topic of body modification/mutilation. The one you cited looks like primary research and we're looking for secondary sources, and they do exist. I am about to leave for the weekend but will find what I can dig up, I've seen such sources. Take care... Zad68 20:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the 'detractors' bit, isn't 'mutilate' already known to be a more negative-sounding verb than 'alter' or 'modify' ? It almost seems like splitting hairs to have to source every single obvious statement like this... I mean there's all sorts of content on Wikipedia where the writing can become almost casually without being interrupted with constant reference by common-sense stuff. Nobody's putting fact-tags next to "bears are mammals" or whatever.

have to source every single obvious statement... Yes, now you're gettin' it! Next thing to look at is WP:BURDEN, which is policy, where it says:

Attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.

(emphasis in original) - If someone reverts it, it's been challenged, so you have to bring a good, authoritative, reliable source... end of story. You're interested in working in a very contentious topic area on Wikipedia, so you can expect that everything you do will require unimpeachable sourcing. At this point, I source absolutely everything I do, in every topic area I work in, no matter how seemingly obvious my edit might be. Zad68 03:42, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject_External_links

75.152.123.238 (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I deleted someone's search and select at pubmed. None of it wuz being used, and none of it should be used, because it really belongs in another article, MMSC.
ENVIRONMENTALISTs do it until it is green.

Coconut Oil

Are you disputing the definition of medium and long-chain fatty acids? THC Loadee 22:17, 28 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by THC Loadee (talk • contribs)

Let's continue the discussion at the article Talk page Talk:Coconut oil. Zad68 02:47, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, so now we discuss science to see what is true? Once again 'Are you disputing the definition of medium and long-chain fatty acids?' THC Loadee 20:44, 29 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by THC Loadee (talk • contribs)