User talk:Trovatore/Capitalization

Could you show me the capitalization convention that says the titles of those article should be "Von Neumann stuff" rather than "von Neumann stuff", even if the man's surname is von Neumann? - Stormwatch 00:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The capitalization of the v depends on the context. When you start a sentence with "von Neumann" you capitalize the v. Just like when you start a sentence with "dog", you capitalize the "d". Note that our article on dogs is titled "Dog", not "dog". --Trovatore 00:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

How about this, then: "EBay is a good site to buy stuff." or "IMacs are nice computers." Hmm... - Stormwatch 00:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

That's precisely the difference. You never write "EBay", even when it's the first word of a sentence. You do write "Von Neumann" when it starts a sentence. --Trovatore 01:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

But why? Now, not trying to sound agressive or anything, but if there are guidelines for that, I'd appreciate if you'd show me where I could check them. And think about this: an article's title is not the beginning of a sentence anyway! - Stormwatch 02:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Why do you never write "EBay"? Because eBay doesn't. No, an article's title is not the beginning of a sentence, but clearly the convention is to capitalize it if you can, such as at the beginning of a sentence (otherwise our dog article would be at dog). You can capitalize "von Neumann", at the beginning of a sentence, and therefore you should, when it begins the title of an article, just as you would with "dog".

The point of the {{lowercase}} template is to identify articles whose titles are actually wrong when uppercased. The canonical example is e (mathematical constant); it's just plain wrong to write "E" for that number. It's less wrong, but still probably wrong enough to justify the template, to write "EBay" or "Bell Hooks" in opposition to the usages of those parties themselves.

You seem to want to use the template for a different purpose, namely to say: "Hey look, you might think that you'd always capitalize the V in von Neumann, because it's somebody's name, but in fact we don't". In my opinion that's not a sufficiently important point to justify an ugly notice at the top of the article (for those not using Javascript), or even a title starting with lowercase (at variance with the rest of WP conventions). --Trovatore 03:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

If we should capitalize the first letter in a sentence, then is it not more important to capitalize the first letter in a paragraph? In a section? In the article? The case for capitalizing the first letter in an article's name is even stronger than for capitalizing the first letter of a sentence. Also I do not see the value of adding such irrelevant templates in any case. The only situation where I would put such a message, even assuming it were correct, would be on the article on John von Neumann himself. And ironically, in that case, it is not the first letter and thus the issue does not arise. JRSpriggs 10:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

No. If it is a proper noun, that name's capitalization should never be changed. The man's name is von Neumann, so it must be kept like that always. Writing "Von Neumann" is wrong like "von neumann" or "vON NeUMaNn" or even "\/0|\| n3U|\/|@nn". - 19:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)That is a common misconception. Capitalization is a matter of editorial style, not spelling, and in print settings a style guide will tell how to do it. Not all style guides accomodate lowercase names like Bell Hooks [1] [2].

Both the German and Dutch articles use a capital V for Von Neumann algebra. The Dutch one uses a capital V at the start of many sentences, as well. Do you think they are also incorrect? CMummert · talk 20:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I definitely do think they are incorrect. Wrong capitalization = misspelling. - Stormwatch 23:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Look in the literature; you will find consistently that when "von Neumann" starts a sentence, the V is uppercase. The rule is not that proper nouns never change their capitalization; it's that proper nouns are capitalized. The reason the V in "von Neumann" is not capitalized in the middle of a sentence is that it's not a proper noun, or even a noun at all; it's a preposition, meaning "of" or "from". Grammatically speaking, only the "Neumann" part is a noun. --Trovatore 19:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

In this context, "von" is not a preposition. The name as a whole is a proper noun. - Stormwatch 23:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

You can make that argument if you want (though even then, there is no rule that proper nouns starting with lowercase are invariant; properness is specifically a bias to uppercase, not to invariance). Maybe you think that shouldn't be the rule, and you can make that argument if you want, but then you're arguing for language reform. We don't do that at WP. The standard capitalization for "von Neumann" at the beginning of a sentence is to capitalize the V. --Trovatore 23:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

As I said before, an article title is not a sentence. And again, where is that rule written? I searched and failed to find anything about that. - Stormwatch 23:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The relevant policy is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). CMummert · talk 00:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

It's clear what the WP convention is, "capitalize when you can". It may not have been codified anywhere. We can open a style RFC if you like to get it clarified. --Trovatore 23:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Can I take part in the debate? - Stormwatch 00:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Obviously. You don't suppose you need my permission? --Trovatore 00:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake, for a moment I thought "RfC" meant a debate among WP administrators. - Stormwatch 02:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

fwiw, an article in wikipedia should never need to start with a surname, due to the article naming policy for biographies. Any person's biography article should generally include both first and family names, which pretty much prevents this issue coming up. In normal body text, I'd be inclined to reword teh sentence so that the surname in question does not start the sentence. Rhialto 03:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, we're not talking about biographies here. We're talking about scientific and mathematical notions named after a worker in the field, such as the von Neumann universe. As to your second point, why would you want to reword the sentence? I see no cost at all associated with capitalizing the V in von Neumann when it starts a sentence; it's just what you're supposed to do. Why does anyone feel this is even remotely problematic? --Trovatore 18:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)