User talk:Tim O'Doherty

Check

@Tim O'Doherty Just writing here to know whether you are fine. Last week was pretty heavy with all the heated discussions with a disruptive user, if you could say that. Thanks for your support and leaving the user to his own good judgement from now on, regardless of his future behaviour here. Looking forward to collaborating with you on a few GAs as such. Regards MSincccc (talk) 12:43, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - thanks for your concern. Yes, I'm fine. Well done on persevering against that user as well. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:37, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Nothing was of use though. The user has continued with his trademark behaviour in almost all pages he has edited. Most of his edits are unconstructive. Regards MSincccc (talk) 03:30, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Well Tim, Catherine has left the hospital as can be derived from recent press releases and of course, an official statement from Kensington Palace thanking the staff at The London Clinic. Just wanted to know from you and @Keivan.f: whether it should be included. Previously also she had been admitted but we hve not gone forward with mentioning the discharge details possibly because its trivial for inclusion that too in a GA. Thus seeking confirmations from both of you. Keeping the article in its present state till then and expecting a reply soon. Regards MSincccc (talk) 12:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - I don't think the act of her leaving the hospital is notable, but mentioning that she did attend would be. As we do in other articles when something like this happens, we just mention why and when he/she was at the hospital (eg in Charles's article: In March 2003 Charles underwent surgery at King Edward VII's Hospital to treat a hernia injury). I think the current wording (In January 2024, Catherine underwent abdominal surgery due to an undisclosed medical condition that did not involve cancer. She was subsequently hospitalised at The London Clinic, which resulted in the postponement of several of her public engagements.) is fine as is. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty and @Keivan.f How would you describe a person of the United Kingdom in his or her article's short description- "British" or "English"? I ask this as there is quite a number of pages using "British" as well though the majority state "English". Regards MSincccc (talk) 16:15, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - It depends on which has the strongest personal / cultural / relevant ties to the person or which they identify with most strongly. Is there any particular case you're asking about? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Those who are from Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are definitely Irish since Ireland and Great Britain are two different geographic locations. Those who are from Great Britain can be described as British, though if you want to be specific those who are from England are English, the ones from Scotland are Scottish, and the ones from Wales are Welsh. It sometimes depends on how the person refers to him/herself when it comes to the British vs English thing (MOS:IDENTITY). Keivan.f^Talk 16:29, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc The wording is fine as it is. 20 years from now nobody would care when she was exactly hospitalised or discharged. The only important point health-wise is that she underwent surgery and that is already mentioned. Keivan.f^Talk 00:14, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Just wanted to check in and apologize if I've been bothering you with all the requests lately. Your patience and support have been invaluable, especially with Philip's GA nomination and George's GA review. Thanks again for your assistance with that. Also, your help in improving the articles on Gates and Cameron has been greatly appreciated. Looking forward to collaborating further, including sorting out the citations on Gates' page and aiming to bring Cameron's article to GA-class this summer. And I hope you don't mind having bothered you (with my pings to bring your attention to my requests). Let's aim for another successful GA review soon, perhaps with the Earthshot Prize article. Hope you're doing well in real life. Best regards. MSincccc (talk) 12:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

It's alright MSincccc: you've not been bothering me. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:41, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

DYK for Well he would, wouldn't he?

On 2 February 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Well he would, wouldn't he?, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that "he would, wouldn't he"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Well he would, wouldn't he?. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Well he would, wouldn't he?), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—Kusma (talk) 00:03, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

		Hook update
		Your hook reached 12,411 views (1,034.2 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of February 2024 – nice work!

GalliumBot (talk • contribs) (he/it) 03:27, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Recent

@Tim O'Doherty Could you please brief me as to how I can use the InternetArchive bot for archiving citations on any page? Your help will be appreciated. Regards MSincccc (talk) 15:11, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - the honest answer is I'm not sure. I use Internet Archive manually. The people at the Teahouse could probably answer your question better than I could. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:46, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Can one create a sandbox page on himself? Like HM Tim I. No I found a user sandbox like that hence asking. Regards MSincccc (talk) 09:23, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - no, I don't think so. If it's autobiographical than it's a COI (WP:YOURSELF) violation (if they intend it to be published into mainspace). Could also apply under WP:FAKEARTICLE and WP:UPNOT. I can't remember exactly, but I think I read somewhere that you can't have too much autobiographical info in your userspace anyway. Hope this helps. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:44, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Take a look at this then-User:HM King Monty I/sandbox. Regards MSincccc (talk) 15:52, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - yeah, I'd say that's pretty unambiguously rubbish. Should not be on Wikipedia. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:53, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty So would you suggest its deletion to the concerned user? Anyways the user added a file that was posted officially by the Prince and Princess of Wales last April to mark Prince Louis' 5th birthday by presenting it as his own work and then got a warning. Thats how I came across this. Regards MSincccc (talk) 16:25, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - I would probably ask him about it before going to MfD. I'd leave a message on his talk page asking if he'd blank or replace it. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Would you help me with getting this page off Wikipedia? As you put it, it should not be up there. What should I do? Regards MSincccc (talk) 14:23, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - Have you left a message on the user's talk page? If not, that's probably the best course of action. Otherwise, take it to WP:MFD. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Another question, here. Can I modify or will it be justified if the short descriptions of David Cameron and James Cleverly be modified to "Foreign Secretary since 2023" and "Home Secretary since 2023" respectively? Regards MSincccc (talk) 06:49, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - For now, probably. When Cameron stops being FS his will almost certainly return to "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 2010 to 2016" and Cleverly's will be "British politician (born 1969)". Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Your News section page is amazing. Just wanted to know whether its open to other users to add to it. Keep up the good work. Regards MSincccc (talk) 16:56, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - Thanks. Tell you what: if I die prematurely or am indefinitely blocked, I leave it to you to carry on each weekly instalment :) Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 23:33, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Ten Years to Save the West

Hello, Tim O'Doherty. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Ten Years to Save the West, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can request it be undeleted so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Note to humans: now edited to stave off a case of the "speedies". Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:53, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

March 2024 GAN backlog drive

Good article nominations | March 2024 Backlog Drive
March 2024 Backlog Drive: On 1 March, a one-month backlog drive for good article nominations will begin. Barnstars will be awarded. Interested in taking part? You can sign up here or ask questions here.
You're receiving this message because you have reviewed or nominated a good article in the last year.

(t · c) buidhe 02:40, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Possible collaboration

Hi Tim. Hope you are doing well. Well, February is almost over and spring is around the corner. I was wondering whether your schedule would permit you to review a GA nomination or not. I think you have not been involved with the article on Prince Philip in any way, shape or form so you are a good candidate to review it. Once again, I don't insist on conducting a review in 2-3 days so I would not be bothered if you needed 2-3 weeks to wrap it up. Looking forward to your response. Have a nice weekend. Keivan.f^Talk 04:04, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Well going by the present state of the page, I have 14.7% authorship whereas you, Keivan, have 8.5% authorship. So who's going to nominate? I thought I could help because of my recent experience of working on the article. Regards MSincccc (talk) 05:11, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't like squabbles, but in response to your comment, I'm the third top editor for this article and rank 4th in terms of authorship. There are no obstacles in front of me in terms of nominating the article per WP:GANI. At the moment I'm waiting for Tim's response but I may proceed without him if he is not available (which hopefully is not the case). Keivan.f^Talk 06:08, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Well I never meant to say that there are obstacles in front of you Keivan.f. I will be very much obliged to help you in the process. Also what I actually wanted to make clear is that I am as eligible to be the nominator because the nominator should be "... either the author of more than 10% of the article or not be ranked sixth or lower in authorship". I fulfil both those criteria presently and hence just wanted to notify that I am as eligible to be the nominator. Go forward with the nomination but please do include me. MSincccc (talk) 07:05, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

@Keivan.f, @MSincccc - Yeah, if conducted in small chunks. March - early/mid April would probably be most viable: later April might or might not be, depending on what happens at that point, as it's a bit up in the air. Depends when you're planning to do it, if I'm being honest. Happy to discuss further. Hope you're well — Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanka for your response. March would be the best time I guess. Starting from April I'll be super busy and it appears that you may end up in the same boat so I'd say we can start it in about 7-10 days from now and finish it in 2-3 weeks. Keivan.f^Talk 22:47, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Tim, Keivan has recently nominated an article—Aishwarya Rai Bachchan—for GA. I believe you would be an excellent choice to review the process. The reality is, unless he successfully achieves GA status for this article, he won't be able to nominate Prince Philip's article for GA. Your expertise is invaluable, especially as I lack knowledge of the page as this is neither royalty nor tech related. Appreciate your consideration. Regards MSincccc (talk) 06:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for intervening and I'm sure you mean well, but I think I can tackle two GAs at the same time. Let's not put unnecessary pressure on anyone. I just felt I was not ready for another royalty-related GA and it's perfectly fine for all of us to explore different topics now and then. I'm fine with the current article that I have worked on getting picked up by someone else. I think we should collaborate with different people as much as possible.

Btw Tim, good luck with your nomination for Well he would, wouldn't he?. Keivan.f^Talk 11:54, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - It's a big beast of an article and would take me a while to do it justice without rushing through or butchering the review. When Keivan nominates Philip I'll be more than happy to take that on. Thanks for the good wishes @Keivan.f - best of luck with your article too. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Request

Could you start a review on Haile Selassie I article and start a GA discussion, i think it would benefit if you review the article under GA criteria, and input your decision if it meets or passes the GA criteria CtasACT (talk) 01:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@CtasACT - Looks like it's been nabbed. Sorry. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Would you please tell me what exactly I would have to adda t the top of the talk page of the article Ivanka Trump to nominate it for GA ? Meanwhile, I would also like if you could take it up for review once its nominated. Regards MSincccc (talk) 17:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Copy-paste {{subst:GAN|subtopic=Social sciences and society}} at the top. I'll see if I can take on the review when I have time. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Please take up the review right now. I have nominated it. Would not have anyone else review it. @Tim O'Doherty MSincccc (talk) 17:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not too familiar with Ms Trump so it would be difficult for me to determine if the article met the "broadness" criterion. If no-one picks it up relatively soon, however, I'll have a go. Even so, I'm sure a different reviewer will be just as good, if not better, than me. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:21, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Just take it up. We will see later. Anyway I am not in a hurry. Regards MSincccc (talk) 17:40, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

CtasACT has made an offer. If nothing comes of that in the coming weeks, I will pick it up. Again, I'm sure that other reviewers will be equally understanding. I'm not the be-all and end-all; it's good to have a bit of variety. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc i would review it with my kind heart if you are willing to join the discussion on Haile Selassie I review: again let us both cooperate and make Wikipedia better, but not only for one side but both sides! + Lets take the convo out of @Tim O'Doherty but to yours CtasACT (talk) 17:24, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@CtasACT Offer accepted. Please take up the article for review. Regards and yours faithfully, MSincccc (talk) 17:51, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Our friend Keivan also needs a reviewer for the page Aishwarya Rai Bachchan. I think you can help him with that article. Then both I and Keivan will be satisfied. Regardless of that, I will help you with your article CtasACT. Regards, MSincccc.

David Cameron

@Tim O'Doherty I and Keivan intend to co-nominate and possible get both Catherine and William's articles to FA status this year. But if you won't mind would you considering working with me on a GA for David Cameron, the incumbent Foreign Secretary? I have achieved significant authorship in the article and am just looking out for tweaks here in and there. So if you could help, that would be great. Regards MSincccc (talk) 13:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - Well, I had started a draft for Cameron; I own his memoirs, Cameron at 10 by Seldon, and miscellaneous other books in that area. I haven't read the Cameron article, but I have scanned it in varying levels of detail, and I think that in its current form it it quite messy and would need a significant restructuring to get to GA. Writing about prime ministers, especially British prime ministers (given the enormous amount of news, books and sources generated off of the heat of their premierships), is difficult, which is why we have only 4 FAs (Disraeli, Douglas-Home, Chamberlain, Truss) and a few GAs (Churchill, Thatcher and Brown, and even with Brown I'd say that that's reassessment-fodder). I know it's not what you want to hear, but Cameron's article can't just be fixed by tinkering around the edges: you need to fully get in there, blow up the whole thing and piece something brand new together, section by section. Like I said, things are a bit not-in-my-hands at the moment, but ping me if you need help with anything as usual. I'm happy to look over anything at the Cameron article and give you feedback if needed. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:42, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

But we can still work on it right? Say six-seven months later when we are done with the two FAs concerned. Regards MSincccc (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - Well, in six or seven months who knows. I'd thought you meant sooner than that. I'm currently, slowly, chipping away at the Sunak article. When you start work on Cameron, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:12, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Its been quite some time since I was last here. A lot has happened since then. Hope you are following everything that's happening with Catherine and to hear from you soon. Regards MSincccc (talk) 17:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - Can't say I'm following it that closely, although I did see the BBC's neverending updates on the edited Mother's Day photo; can't say I really get the frenzy behind it, but then again I'm usually behind the times on this sort of thing. Hope you're doing well while contemplating retirement: remember that real life is always more important that whatever goes on on the internet. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:10, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty If real life holds such importance, it's understandable why individuals might question the necessity of engaging in needless arguments over changes to Wikipedia articles. Public figures typically do not concern themselves with their Wikipedia entries, except for rare instances like Elon Musk's proposed investment. It's wise to focus on improving one's real-life endeavors rather than seeking recognition for Wikipedia contributions for somebody as young as me, one who has been here on Earth only for a little over a decade. After all, royal figures do not acknowledge such efforts, and unlike media reporters and column writers, Wikipedia editors are unpaid. As someone with limited editing activity and a busy real-life schedule, I assume that prioritizing real-life goals is paramount for you as well. Looking forward to knowing your thoughts about this. Regards MSincccc (talk) 16:34, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'DohertyI was hoping to hear your thoughts on the above. Additionally, since user CtasACT has yet to review the article on Ivanka Trump, I hope you could consider doing so in the next few days. I understand you and user Voorts are busy with your FA co-nomination for "Well he would, wouldn't he?", but I kindly ask you not to decline my request.

Regards MSincccc (talk) 10:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

If nobody picks it up in the coming weeks then yes, I will review it, although I'm not in a rush to. The Trumps are a high-profile topic; I'm sure many people would be interested in reviewing. Add a message on WT:TRUMP or WT:PLT and see if anyone picks it up from there. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Tim, The article was passed as GA in record time I suppose sometime yesterday. But he/she has still not updated the talk page or the GOOD ARTICLES page. Please check out at Talk:Ivanka Trump/GA2. Also hoping to know your views on what I said about reality above. Regards MSincccc (talk) 09:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Would you assist me in preparing Cameron's article for GA and enhancing its quality if you have the time? It would be greatly appreciated. Regards MSincccc (talk) 16:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - I'm sorry, I really don't think it's anywhere close to GA. The rot (extremely inconsistent citations, terrible structure, low-quality prose, dead links, balance issues etc) goes deep. Unless you're planning a full rewrite (a la Alec Douglas-Home, Benjamin Disraeli, Liz Truss, Margaret Thatcher or currently my draft for Sunak), I can't see the article becoming a GA. Apologies. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:06, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty That's what I am suggesting. We can work on it for a year or maybe even more. Not that its an impossible task.

Also what should I do if AndrewPeterT does not post any comments for George's GA review? He hasn't done so for almost two days now. Regards MSincccc (talk) 17:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I could work on it in the background, but it would take a long time: my fairly meagre Sunak draft has taken about 3 months now, not including his two-and-a-half year chancellorship or any of his early life and pre-Parliament career. I have most of the relevant literature for Cameron's premiership; not so much for his Conservative leadership. Re GAN: I'm sure it'll be fine. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Are you a working professional? If that's the case I had not bother you given even I am in a crucial phase of my life-middle school. Anyways, good luck with your FA nomination for Well he would, wouldn't he?. Also the GA nomination page shows that you have conducted 12 reviews but conducted none. Is it true? Regards and have a great day, MSincccc (talk) 17:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Me being "professional" in any sphere of life might be up for debate ;) Thanks for the well-wishes. I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit: I've reviewed GAs and have written GAs, if that's what you're looking for. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty This is what is said under Prince Philip's GA nomination about the reviewer, i.e., you- Review: this article is being reviewed (additional comments are welcome). (12 reviews, 0 GAs) Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:28, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Hence I asked whether you had any GA nominations to your name or whether ChristieBot was at fault. Regards MSincccc (talk) 18:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The bot must be at fault then. Odd. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:06, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty How many GAs have you successfully nominated by the way? MSincccc (talk) 18:30, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

8. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:32, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Would you please tell me whether the article Karlie Kloss can be Ga-nominated by me? I am both the highest author as well as among the top editors of the article. I have been working at it for quite some time now. Just let me know when possible though I have myself verified the facts through XTOOLS. Congratulations as well on getting your second FA. REGARDS MSincccc (talk) 17:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Probably, yes. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

What do you gain from keeping a kid in the dark? If you had taken up the Earthshot Prize GA review earlier, it could have been completed by now. I'm eager to work quickly and respond promptly—I appreciate your past support and advice, but this time it was not extended. I would never leave someone waiting for a response without clarity. You could do more by either taking it up or simply saying no. However, the latter response would certainly disappoint me, especially considering that the Earthshot Prize article is much shorter than others you've successfully reviewed and worked on. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 16:43, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry MSincccc, but I'm not obligated to review anything, or even obligated to reply to any message left here. I've taken up most reviews you've asked me to and will likely review the Cameron article as well. I don't need to give you a reason as to why I've not reviewed something as it's my time I'm giving up, but so far when I've declined I have. It's only been six days. Give it time. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:11, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Certainly. Please provide more details or suggest what else can be done to improve the quality of the Premiership of Liz Truss article. I've also pinged you on William's talk page to get your views on the use of commas in the lead sentence. You can review the Earthshot Prize article whenever you find the time. MSincccc (talk) 19:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd use the following sources for the Truss article:

• Bale, Tim (2023). The Conservative Party After Brexit: Turmoil and Transformation. Polity. ISBN 978-1-50-954601-5.
• Bogdanor, Vernon (December 2022). "Choosing the Conservative leader: a view from history". The Political Quarterly. 93 (4): 564–575. doi:10.1111/1467-923X.13207.
• Burton-Cartledge, Phil (2023). The Party's Over: The Rise and Fall of the Conservatives from Thatcher to Sunak. Verso. ISBN 978-1-83976-038-9.
• Cole, Harry; Heale, James (2022). Out of the Blue: The Inside Story of the Unexpected Rise and Rapid Fall of Liz Truss. HarperCollins. ISBN 978-0-00-860578-0.
• Middleton, Alia (28 May 2023). "United Kingdom: political developments and data in 2022". European Journal of Political Research. 62. doi:10.1111/2047-8852.12401.
• Payne, Sebastian (2022). The Fall of Boris Johnson: The Full Story. Macmillan Publishers. ISBN 978-1-03-501655-6.
• Riley-Smith, Ben (2023). The Right to Rule: Thirteen Years, Five Prime Ministers and the Implosion of the Tories. Hodder & Stoughton. ISBN 978-1-39-981029-6.
• Seldon, Anthony; Meakin, Jonathan; Thoms, Illias; Egerton, Tom (2024). The Impossible Office?: The History of the British Prime Minister—Revised and Updated. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-009-42977-1.
• Seldon, Anthony; Newell, Raymond (2023). Johnson at 10: The Inside Story. Atlantic Books. ISBN 978-1-83-895802-2.
• Shipman, Tim (2024). Out: How Brexit Got Done and Four Prime Ministers Were Undone. William Collins. ISBN 978-0-00-830894-0.

and eventually

• Seldon, Anthony; Meakin, Jonathan (2024). Truss at 10: 49 Days That Changed Britain. Atlantic Books. ISBN 978-1-80-546213-2.

Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty How do I incorporate these book sources into the article about Truss's premiership? I don't own any of these books. Could you please provide guidance on how to include them in the article's prose? Regards, and I look forward to your response. MSincccc (talk) 07:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

If you don't have them then you can't. Simple as that. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Do you purchase the books just to cite them on Wikipedia and then craft suitable prose based on their content? Especially considering that you're an "unpaid volunteer," as you mentioned earlier. Is there an alternative way to access the content online instead?sel MSincccc (talk) 18:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The first answer is no. The second answer is yes, through the Wikipedia Library, Google Scholar, Internet Archive, Google Books, etc. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Would you be willing to assist me in the process? It wouldn't need to be full-time, but if you could make some revisions before I do, I would greatly appreciate it. I often turn to you for advice and revisions because your knowledge on the subject is vast. Regards, and I eagerly await your opinion. MSincccc (talk) 18:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I still recommend waiting until post-5 Sep. I don't see the point of going through the article now just for it to become obsolete 20 weeks later. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Chief Mouser: Term Length

Hello, thank you for correcting my incorrect title, I no longer believe "At his Majesty's pleasure" is the correct term length for Larry. However, upon further reading I now believe the proper title be "At the pleasure of the Prime Minister". As Larry is appointed by the PM, and has no term limit, I believe this would be accurate. This term is used in the UK, Commonwealth realms and exchanged for "At the pleasure of the President" in the US. Thank you BJGB (talk) 14:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@BJGB - Thanks for taking to talk, but unfortunately it's still incorrect. Peta, for example, was recommended by the lieutenant governor of the Isle of Man and approved by the home secretary, and Wilberforce was introduced by the Downing Street office manager. Both Peter II and Peter III were appointed by people who we don't know (but presumably not the prime minister). Things like those don't have a coherent, consistent standard which can be used; unfortunate, but there it is. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Help

@Tim O'Doherty You seem to be presently too busy to reply to me but I believe you will not ignore or deny my request to review a British royalty article for GA in the forthcoming week. Its nothing in comparison to the sizes of Diana, William or Catherine's articles which you have reviewed successfully in the past year. The article concerned is not Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. Hoping to receive a positive reply from you soon. Regards MSincccc (talk) 15:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - which article? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty First let the article Ivanka Trump be passed as GA. For the time being you can help CtasACT in passing it by tomorrow at best. All issues have been resolved. Then I had further brief you. Regards MSincccc (talk) 18:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Its Princess Charlotte of Wales (born 2015). I have already nominated it. It's only about 19,990 bytes. I hope you will take it up for review as soon as you read this post which we can work on Prince George of Wales. Regards MSincccc (talk) 04:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I have recently nominated Prince George of Wales for GA. I hope you take it up for review given you previously said that you can handle two reviews at a time when one is a short article like this one. Regards MSincccc (talk) 15:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Once I've gotten some way into the Philip one I might pick it up. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:07, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

In two days time I hope @Tim O'Doherty. Regards MSincccc (talk) 16:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I have put up Philip's article for review. I know you might be busy with reviewing Charlotte or George's articles but given that those are relatively short pages I thought you still might be able to do a comprehensive review of a detailed article such as Philip's. If not, I guess I'll just wait for someone to pick it up. Cheers. Keivan.f^Talk 08:31, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Can User: CtasACT pick it up? What do you both think @Tim O'Doherty and @Keivan.f. Regards MSincccc (talk) 11:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's already been picked up. I think it'd be better if CtasACT gained a little bit more experience before taking up reviews. Keivan.f^Talk 15:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

He did successfully review Trump's article for GA and Tim will tell you about that. The DYK reviewer and a few others have commented that the article's well written. You can try giving him a chance to prove himself though @Keivan.f and I will try to be around if possible. Regards MSincccc (talk) 16:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I never said they were incompetent. It's a matter of expertise; I don't know how familiar they are with the topics or what their areas of interest are. I'm sure there will be a chance to collaborate sometime in the future. Keivan.f^Talk 18:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

Hello. I had nominated an article for GA and would like to have it reviewed. I wanted to have this featured on the DYK because Geronimo was honored with the Billboard Women in Music award in 2024. I am glad to address all the concerns. Happy reviewing! ScarletViolet (talk • contribs) 10:08, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Collaboration

@Tim O'Doherty I have noticed that you have been rather inactive over the past few days. Regardless of that, I hope you will take up Prince George's article for review soon given you were proposing it last June. I hope you are not being bothered by me and that we keep collaborating with each others. Regards MSincccc (talk) 17:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I've not been inactive: was chipping away at my draft for the Sunak article fairly recently. You're not bothering me; will get to work on Philip's GAN soon. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty It obviously does not matter how long the review lasts. At the time of writing, you have left no comments for Philip's GA review for the past two days. You can manage, I believe, two reviews at a time given George's article is pretty short and decent. Hoping for a positive response from you and please take up the review soon. Regards MSincccc (talk) 06:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Please take up George's article for review soon lest anyone else takes it up and fails it. Regards MSincccc (talk) 02:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Should my GA nomination for Prince George of Wales be considered a drive-by since I am one of the top five authors as well as one of the all-time highest editors to the article? I have pinged you on the GA review page. Please do help out upon seeing this message. Regards MSincccc (talk) 18:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. You should be able to nominate it without any issues. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Would you take up the above article for review? The previous GA reviewer quick failed it but I have worked on the shortcomings in the article especially the verifiability and prose related issues. Looking forward to your response. Regards MSincccc (talk) 14:39, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Which article? Prince George's seems fine. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I want you to take up the GA review for Karlie Kloss. It has got some issues which I hope you will help me identify and sort out. Please do so at the earliest lest somebody else takes it up. You can refer to the previous GAR as well. @Tim O'Doherty Awaiting your response. Regards MSincccc (talk) 15:48, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I know nothing about Kloss, and as such I wouldn't be able to assess broadness. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:30, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Its not half as long as Philip's. Reading it might give you an idea anyway and you can also refer to the previous GA review. I myself became familiar with the article only a few months ago when I started working on it. I have made many changes also as per the previous reviewer. A positive response will be greatly appreciated. Time is not an issue as long as the process turns out to be successful. It is my faith in your capabilities as a reviewer that speaks so. Regards MSincccc (talk) 16:05, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Would you warrant the inclusion of anything more than that which has already been included to the article Catherine, Princess of Wales in the event of the Where is Kate? article been deleted? There is sufficient information regarding her health issues as if late and furthermore, even the "photograph controversy" thing has been covered under "Privacy and media". Looking forward to your comments at the third AfD for this article. Regards MSincccc (talk) 05:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I think what's already at the Catherine article is fine. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 12:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Your work at Well he would, wouldn't he? was a commendable one. I was recently considering if you would be open to collaborating on an article, similar to what you did with Voorts. If you're unable to review George or Kloss' articles, we could work together on one. Then, we could aim to achieve GA and possibly FA status in the future. Your recent FA was a redirect turned into one of Wikipedia's best-written articles. A similar outcome could be achieved again if we collaborate. It would also be helpful to know if you're following British Summer Time like me and when you're available to work on Wikipedia. Then, I'll only reach out to you during that time rather than any other time of the day. I look forward to hearing from you soon on this matter. Regards MSincccc (talk) 07:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I live in the UK so I am currently using UTC+1. Which article did you have in mind? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I initially considered Cameron, but it seems challenging. I previously mentioned that a concise article would suffice, but now realize it should be more substantial, albeit not overly lengthy, to ensure a comprehensive assessment. Additionally, it should be able to include references from reputable books.

So you're not observing British Summer Time then? Also, could you let me know the most convenient time for our discussions here on Wikipedia?

Regards MSincccc (talk) 14:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I am using BST. You can message me anytime, really. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

You suggest me an article which can be made GA-table and possibly taken to FA-class in say 6 months or even lesser? I will do the detailed work but your very support, like you gave to Voorts, will be really helpful. Not suggesting David Cameron given you find it to be in an undesirable state at present. Regards MSincccc (talk) 14:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The best I can come up with is the Earl of Wilmington's article, if you're looking for a prime ministerial bio. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Will you collaborate with me on taking it to GA-class and FA status then just like you did with Well he would, wouldn't he?. Looking forward to knowing from you, MSincccc (talk) 15:15, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I can help. Are you OK with writing a biography of a prime minister? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

As long as we are in it together. Regards MSincccc (talk) 16:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I have another suggestion to consider. Would you be willing to collaborate on improving the article about Benjamin Graham? Currently rated as Start class, it would be rewarding to elevate it to FA status, especially considering that his writings, which I have personally read, significantly influenced Warren Buffett's career. Enhancing this article would provide valuable insights, and I anticipate that we can gather numerous quotations and book sources for reference. This is just a suggestion on my part though. Looking forward to knowing from you, MSincccc (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I would be comfortable writing about him, as I know very little about his life story itself. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

If that's the case, we had go with the Earl of Wilmington's article itself. But that article has hardly even 10 sources and we have to take it to Fa-status. How do you think will that be possible? Like do you have any good sources in your mind which can be added? I am optimistic about this article as long as you are. Regards MSincccc (talk) 07:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

He's one of the more obscure prime ministers. I don't know if you have access to the Wikipedia Library, but Cambridge University Press has The Impossible Office by Anthony Seldon and the ODNB has its own biography of Wilmington. Google Books has the Biographical Dictionary of British Prime Ministers and British Prime Ministers. Internet Archive has The Prime Ministers by Herbert van Thal. I had Iain Dale's The Prime Ministers, which I think I used in the article, but I don't have it any more. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 09:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Please take up George's GA review. I do not want to delay it further. Please. Regards MSincccc (talk) 09:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty How long now before you take up the article for review? I fear another reviewer will take it up and hence further delay the entire process unnecessarily. Further, I saw that you recently put forth your views in the AfD. Looking forward to @you taking up George's article for review, MSincccc (talk) 09:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Me: @Tim O'Doherty Please take up George's article for GA.

Tim: I will have a look at it and take it up once I have covered some ground with Philip's GA

Me (again): Sorry its been taken up.

Me: Article has been abandoned; please take it up as I do not want to delay it further.

Pings multiple times @Tim O'Doherty

Tim: (sees)

Me (again): Please take up the review.

Still awaiting a response.

P.S. Review has still not been taken up by Tim.

Regards MSincccc (talk) 14:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty First things first. The reviewer has abandoned George's GA review because he felt overwhelmed by its size. Now that Philip's GA and it's prose has been taken care of, I hope you will take up George's article for GA at the earliest before a certain user Kinsif, himself under time constraints takes it up. @Tim O'Doherty @Tim O'Doherty @Tim O'Doherty Sorry for pinging you multiple times but you know it's more of a necessity now that the article's updated to GA-class at the earliest. See you at the review then if you are quick enough. Regards MSincccc (talk) 08:52, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Promotion of Well he would, wouldn't he?

Congratulations, Tim O'Doherty! The article you nominated, Well he would, wouldn't he?, has been promoted to featured status, recognizing it as one of the best articles on Wikipedia. The nomination discussion has been archived.

This is a rare accomplishment and you should be proud. If you would like, you may nominate it to appear on the Main page as Today's featured article. Keep up the great work! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) via FACBot (talk) 00:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Where is Kate? for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Where is Kate? is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Where is Kate? (3rd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 11:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Four Award

		Four Award
		Congratulations! You have been awarded the Four Award for your work from beginning to end on Well he would, wouldn't he?. — Bilorv (talk) 11:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Congratulations on the shared Four Award with voorts! A rare and great achievement for your first Four Award! I like the article a lot, and of course it's part of Wikipedia lore. — Bilorv (talk) 11:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bilorv - Cheers! Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Congrats Tim! voorts (talk/contributions) 20:04, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

New Article

@Tim O'Doherty I've been thinking recently about whether we could collaborate on creating a completely new article from scratch. If you're open to the idea, we could start working on it straight away and aim to progress it through the DYK, GA, and FA stages. I look forward to hearing from you and hope you're doing well and in good health, as I haven't heard from you since yesterday. Regards MSincccc (talk) 13:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

It would depend on whether there's a gap that really needs filling. It's no use just creating an article for the sake of creating an article: the idea comes first, then DYK, GA, FA etc second. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:00, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Well I have addressed your comments on George's GA page. Awaiting your response as such. Regards and faithfully yours, MSincccc (talk) 13:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Prince George GAN

@Tim O'Doherty Well, I must confess, I'm not quite certain how many times I've reached out to you this past week regarding George's review. Do you have any intention of tackling it at all? I ask as a good friend and frequent collaborator. Wishing you a splendid day ahead, and eagerly anticipating our future collaborations. Regards and faithfully yours, MSincccc (talk) 14:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC) Not really. I took on Diana's, William's, Catherine's, Charlotte's and now Philip's. I'm happy to let someone else have a go at George's. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC) Well, please do consider taking it on this time, @Tim. It's already been delayed because the previous reviewer abandoned it, feeling "overwhelmed" by the article's size. His companion is also unsure about looking into it due to time constraints. You've always done a great job. I would greatly appreciate it if you could take on the task once again. Thank you. Regards and faithfully yours, MSincccc (talk) 16:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC) Hey @Tim, this is a sincere request from as sincere a collaborator. Please do help me out this time as I have no alternatives and know that you will do a great job. Regards MSincccc (talk) 02:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Please do take it up. You can leave it to another reviewer the next time. I will greatly appreciate it @Tim O'Doherty. Regards and faithfully yours, MSincccc (talk) 05:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Would you simply allow George's GA review to remain unresolved like this? Presently, the reviewer has abandoned it, and despite possessing the expertise, you decline to take it up for review, @Tim O'Doherty. I look forward to our future collaborations. Regards, MSincccc (talk) 14:37, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia News

@Tim O'Doherty Once you've finished the GA review for George, would you consider collaborating on something like "Wikipedia News"? Give it some thought. We could work together on this—I hope there are no hard feelings towards a teenager like me from your end. Regards MSincccc (talk) 18:46, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - I'm not sure what you mean. Must be out of the loop: what is "Wikipedia news"? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

We're thinking of something like a news roundup on Wikipedia's behalf. We'll have support from administrators and a team of willing contributors who can sign up for this project once we launch it. We could also incorporate parody, similar to what you already do at User:Tim O'Doherty/News. Regards MSincccc (talk) 13:43, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Hm. How would this differ from the Signpost? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Well we will carry it out on a larger scale including parody. Regards MSincccc (talk) 18:34, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the Signpost covers news on and about WP pretty well. My thing is just for people who click on my user-name to have a laugh at. If we want it to be weekly and bigger than the Signpost (which is roughly fortnightly to monthly) it's a big time-sink and I'm not really sure it's necessary. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

You registered as a user here only in November 2021. How do you know so much about the policies and act like an experienced user who's been here for a decade? Also, why did you join Wikipedia in the first place? I ask this as I was recently considering going inactive due to my school commitments. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 07:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

This won't surprise you, but I'd used Wikipedia long before 2021, although had never edited and never had an account. I can't remember exactly why I registered: I don't think it was for anything very exciting. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim If you don't mind, would you like to collaborate on another GA review after you finish with Philip's? I assure you it's related to royalty and written in British English. I look forward to hearing from you as I prepare it for its future. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 08:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Do you remember this discussion? I hope you won't hold it against me for the recent edits I made to your user Looking forward to your response. Regards MSincccc (talk) 09:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Well what about this-If you don't mind, would you like to collaborate on another GA review after you finish with Philip's? I assure you it's related to royalty and written in British English. I look forward to hearing from you as I prepare it for its future. Regards MSincccc (talk) 15:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Which article? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Either the Earthshot Prize or the Royal Foundation. I have removed unnecessary spaces and ensured citation parameters are correct. The prose is also refined, awaiting your final instruction for improvement. Could you please assist me in nominating either article for GA today? Additionally, some citations are directly from the organizations' websites, as they were not covered explicitly in the media. I trust this will not constitute original research. I look forward to your response. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 15:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response. From a quick glance at both articles, I'd recommend removing the gallery from the Earthshot article per WP:NOTGALLERY and expanding the lead on the Foundation's article. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 00:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty What additional details do you suggest should be included in the lead section of the article Royal Foundation? Regards. MSincccc (talk) 13:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure, because I've not read it through. You have, so I leave it up to you. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Would you mind leaving a few comments on the peer review of William's article before I close it and proceed with the official nomination for FAR? Regards. MSincccc (talk) 15:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@MSincccc - I'm not seeing any of the books I recommended being cited. Unless you cite some published biographies of William I can't see how the article would pass FAC. A requirement is that an article be a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. Currently, William's article isn't. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I have cited the books under the Bibliography section. Regards MSincccc (talk) 15:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

They're there, but not cited. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:04, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Could you please suggest how and where in the article the book sources should be cited properly? I would greatly appreciate your guidance in making the necessary changes. Thank you for your advice and I look forward to your assistance.

Regards MSincccc (talk) 16:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Throughout. Ideally, you should take the book sources and rewrite parts of or the whole of the article based on them. Take a look at the stuff on User talk:Keivan.f; there's also a bit here, although some of the stuff is fairly low quality. Have a sift through anyway. I'd also take a look at Scholar and the Wikipedia Library. You can use the {{Sfn}} template: info here. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Will the citations still be placed under the "Bibliography" section? I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on how this could be efficiently implemented. You have always been a valuable resource for guidance.

Regards MSincccc (talk) 17:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Take Elizabeth II as an example. There is a section titled "References", which is then split into two subsections: Citations and Bibliography. The only markup under Citations is the {{Reflist}} template, which displays all of the references used in the article. In Bibliography, every source which uses a shortened footnote (Sfn) is contained within a {{Refbegin}} and {{Refend}} template, with the information in each of the references corresponding to what is in each footnote (if we cite something like {{Sfn|Smith|2000}}, then the full information in the bibliography would contain the parameters |last=Smith and |year=2000). If you take this source:

• Graham, Tim; Archer, Peter (2003), William: HRH Prince William of Wales, Simon & Schuster, ISBN 978-0-74-324857-0

and put it in a bibliography section with the {{Refbegin}} template, then you can cite it in the article with {{Sfn|Graham|Archer|2003|p=1}} (which displays as this:) as the last1, last2 and date parameters are filled in with "Graham", "Archer" and "2003" respectively. It will then display in a Citations section with a {{Reflist}} template. Hope this helps. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

FAC

@Tim O'Doherty Well I have DrKay's (one of the FAC coordinators) approval to go ahead and nominate William's article for FAC. But given the article's already a GA(which you reviewed) I wanted you to assist me with the book sources. Furthermore, since it's a demanding job, I would greatly appreciate your assistance. Can this entire thing be done between the two of us in the forthcoming week? Well if we can get this done, it would be great. Looking forward to your response. Regards MSincccc (talk) 18:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't have access to Junor 2013 or Graham & Archer 2003, as they're both unavailable on the Internet Archive. I can see what I can do with other sources though. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Can I nominate it within seven days given your support and my timely response to your suggestions? You have two FAs of your own and know the drill by now. It would be great if FA-status could be achieved for William, Prince of Wales. Looking forward to further suggestions before I start with adding the book sources in order. I hope we are a team now. Isn't it so? Regards MSincccc (talk) 18:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't have any further suggestions. I'm only saying that the FAC likely won't be successful if there's no relevant literature. You don't need to nominate it in seven days: take as long as you need to get the article to a high standard. Best of luck with it. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:52, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

How can I access these books? Could you assist me in integrating the quotes from these books into the article's prose while I cite them? Your help would be greatly appreciated. Regards MSincccc (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

You could wait to see if they become available again on the Archive or buy them. Don't quote directly from the books: write things in your own words. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:44, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Preparing William's FA might take some time, perhaps a week or two. Would you mind reviewing Earthshot Prize for GA in the meantime? If you're agreeable, I'll go ahead and nominate it for GA. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 07:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

If I can get Philip done soon I might. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:44, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Could you let me know if the article "Bill Gates," for which I am the primary author, is suitable for Featured Article Candidate? MSincccc (talk) 10:27, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

No idea. I'd contact other WikiProjects and interested editors for input first. WP:TECH, WP:MICROSOFT, WP:COVID, WP:SANI, WP:USA might be some venues. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:44, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

It appears that using references 281-285 in the article David Cameron to cite the same sentence constitutes citation overkill. Could you please advise me on which ones should be retained and which ones should be omitted? Keeping a maximum of two or three references would suffice. I appreciate your prompt response. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 15:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd remove the entire "Dodgy Dave" section. It's more relevant in Skinner's article than Cameron's. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done MSincccc (talk) 16:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you personally think that the time invested in writing an article for FA status, along with the subsequent time devoted to the FAC process, is worthwhile, especially for a middle schooler like me? I ask for this advice. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 07:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Could you please advise on which citations should be retained in the lead of the article about David Cameron? Regards. MSincccc (talk) 13:30, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

None, in my opinion. They should all be moved to the body or removed if already there. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Could you be specific? I've observed similar citations in the main body. I have other tasks related to the article, and your assistance would be greatly appreciated. Regards MSincccc (talk) 14:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd remove all of the references in the lead section of the Cameron article. If they're duplicated in the main text you can delete them entirely, if not you can move them down into the body. Both the Truss and Sunak articles don't have them in the lead for the same reason (except that Sunak's article is already under-cited in the body and has more flaws than the Shard). Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

By the way, your support in the discussion about the short description for Cameron's article would have been appreciated. The current short description is inaccurate as it does not explicitly mention his present office, unlike other Cabinet ministers. I pinged you, but unfortunately, there was no response. I assumed you might be busy with real-life matters. Nevertheless, I appreciate your ongoing assistance as we work to make Cameron's article worthy of GA status. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 15:35, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't mind the current short description. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:13, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I understand if you are busy with other commitments that prevent you from making regular edits. If that's the case, I am considering discontinuing my involvement in this project. After all, our efforts are unpaid and go unrecognized. However, I am still unclear about your background—whether you are a student, a professional, or retired. I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 16:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

What about this-Do you personally think that the time invested in writing an article for FA status, along with the subsequent time devoted to the FAC process, is worthwhile, especially for a middle schooler like me? Regards. MSincccc (talk) 15:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the time it takes to write an article to FA standard is worth it yes, otherwise I wouldn't have done it. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Would you please me by fetching an article from a reliable source for this uncited paragraph from Cameron's article- Cameron married Samantha Sheffield, the daughter of Sir Reginald Sheffield, 8th Baronet, and Annabel Lucy Veronica Jones (later Viscountess Astor) in 1996. A Marlborough College school friend of Cameron's sister Clare, Samantha accepted Clare's invitation to accompany the Cameron family on holiday in Tuscany, Italy, after graduating from the Bristol School of Creative Arts. Regards MSincccc (talk) 17:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll have a look. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:29, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I can't find it in either Seldon & Snowdon 2016 or Cameron 2019. This might be something though. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Gates and Cameron

I decided to start a new discussion to address these points. Firstly, can the books cited in Gates's article be considered relevant literature according to the FAC guidelines? Additionally, could you review the "Early life" and "Education" sections of Cameron's article? I believe they are satisfactory as they are, but the "Personal life" section requires further attention. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 08:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Would you please fetch me an article from a reliable source for this uncited paragraph under the section "Foreign Secretary (2023-present)-In early December, Cameron urged US lawmakers to agree to a funding bill for military aid to Ukraine or risk "making a mistake comparable to the British act of appeasement that empowered Adolf Hitler before World War II". Regards MSincccc (talk) 10:05, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

No, because the statement is wrong. Cameron didn't say that. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:54, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

What about this-Firstly, can the books cited in Gates's article be considered relevant literature according to the FAC guidelines? Additionally, could you review the "Early life" and "Education" sections of Cameron's article? I believe they are satisfactory as they are, but the "Personal life" section requires further attention.

Regards MSincccc (talk) 07:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Any literature covering Gates, his life and work is relevant. An immediate problem I see in the Cameron article is that the refs need shedloads of work: ref 1 is completely tangled and unreadable; ref 2 lacks a page number; ref 4 cites an unreliable source; ref 5 isn't a full citation; ref 6 is very dubious in terms of reliability; ref 7 is a very old (119 years) primary source; and ref 9 is inconsistent with others from The Daily Telegraph. Out of the first 10 refs, 7 are deficient. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

The common practice I am following here is to cite all references from "The Daily Telegraph" as "The Telegraph" to align with how it's cited in most other articles. If you could replace "The Daily Telegraph" with "The Telegraph" wherever you find them in the Cameron article (although I've already updated most of them), it would be greatly appreciated. I will continue to work in the other areas in the meantime. Regards. Looking forward to a response, Tim O'Doherty MSincccc (talk) 17:22, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

In the other quality prime ministerial articles (Disraeli, Churchill, Douglas-Home, Brown and Truss) it is invariably "The Daily Telegraph". Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:27, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

But I have made the changes anyways so would be great if you could do so. Please @Tim O'Doherty. Regards MSincccc (talk) 17:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty could you please take up Mark Zuckerberg's article for GA review if time permits you to? It would be great to have you on board again if possible. Looking forward to a response soon. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 17:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not that invested in Zuckerberg, unfortunately. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:51, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

But isn't that the criteria for reviewing-that you should not be a significant contributor or have an interest in that article or its subject? Please do give it a read. It will be an interesting one just like Philip's, I assure you. Regards MSincccc (talk) 17:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Could you please leave comments for the peer review of the Gates article? If you're unable to, just let me know rather than not replying. If you can, please proceed. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 15:18, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

How should I approach this? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I look forward to your response soon, @Tim O'Doherty. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 06:58, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Premiership of Liz Truss

I've noticed that you're interested in taking this article, similar to Cameron's, to GA status. I've started working on it and would appreciate any suggestions you have regarding the prose and citations. Once it's ready, I hope you'll review it. I'm partly doing this for you, by the way. Looking forward to collaborating more in the future. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 08:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Cheers. I'd wait until after 5 September this year: Truss at 10 by Anthony Seldon and Jonathan Meakin comes out then, which is likely to be the definitive account of Truss's premiership for a decade at least: Seldon is known for writing so-called "first drafts of history". Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

What's the status of the Cameron article? I'm awaiting further suggestions from you because its GA status could come before the one on Truss's premiership if we wait until September.

Do you have any ideas for a synopsis of the memoir "Ten Years to Save the West" similar to the one for Prince Harry's memoir "Spare"? here

Regards. MSincccc (talk) 15:53, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

There aren't enough sources currently for TYTSTW to make a proper structured article. The best we have in terms of precedent is the article for Blair's A Journey. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

You have again failed to respond to the first part of my question (in case you were unaware). Regards. MSincccc (talk) 03:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

As I've said, until basic things like ref quality are sorted out I don't see any prospect of a GA. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty I see that you are presently not among the top five authors of Rishi Sunak's article. Do you intend to complete your draft, make it high-quality and then nominate after having sought other major contributors' approval? Also please do reply to the first part of my previous question here. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 05:07, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't intend to seek approval because by the time I've finished I will be a major contributor. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 06:47, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Would you assist me by acting as my mentor for the GA review of Aishwarya Rai Bachchan? The discussion is ongoing at Talk:Aishwarya Rai Bachchan/GA4. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 06:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure you'll do well on your own. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty What about the refs under "Early life" of Cameron's article which you pointed out. Do you have alternative sources or will you assist me in fixing them? Regards. MSincccc (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Take a look at this article from The Guardian, which I have recently cited. Can its contents be used to prepare a "Synopsis" section for the time being? Please let me know. MSincccc (talk) 18:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a readers' quiz, so probably not. I haven't bought or read the book yet, although I imagine I'll have to at some point. Just wait for now—we don't have to rush when sources are so patchy. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:26, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

With Prince Philip's GAR coming to a close, would you mind if I nominated Earthshot Prize for GA status? I have previously worked on the citation parameters and removed the gallery as per WP:GALLERY. You could do better by taking it up, as it's about a prize rather than an individual. Looking forward to a positive response, @Tim O'Doherty. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 08:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

What about this @Tim O'Doherty? MSincccc (talk) 15:49, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:51, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I fixed some of the refs in Cameron's article upon your suggestion. Do you have any further suggestions for me? Furthermore, you could assist me by making a few revisions you feel are necessary to Cameron's article. I would greatly appreciate it. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 15:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

There are several tags in the references (permanent dead links, full citations needed). Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:56, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Would you presently advise me as to how I can classify the books sources and references in Gates's articles? MSincccc (talk) 16:10, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. (By the way, you don't have to ping me on talk or in summaries, as I get notifications and watch this page.) Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The way you have structured the "Notes and references" section [here]. How should I apply this to the Bill Gates article? Please provide guidance, and I will implement it myself. Seeking advice as I am young and less experienced than you. Today, I initiated a peer review with the aim of preparing for FAC for the article. MSincccc (talk) 17:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Template in invisible note:

Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on this further? Regards. MSincccc (talk) 17:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you want me to elaborate on. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

For Bill Gates's article How should the references be categorized, similar to what has been done in your draft for Rishi Sunak and for Elizabeth II's FA-class article? I'm asking how I can group all the references cited from magazines and websites under one heading, news under another heading, and from primary sources, books, and journals under separate headings. Is this clear to you now? Regards. MSincccc (talk) 18:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it can be done without changing the entire referencing system to sfns. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Could you explain the entire process to me briefly? Are you suggesting that I change the entire referencing system? How should I go about doing this? I'm looking for a detailed and thorough explanation rather than just a brief response. I don't want to keep bothering you repeatedly, but I still need clarification, hence I am compelled to request again. I hope this doesn't inconvenience you. Please reply at your convenience, but please do reply. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 07:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm not suggesting that, but if you want everything split into books, news articles, journals etc you will need to. I've given you two walkthroughs now, I'm not sure what else I can do. You can get more info at Help:Sfn and looking at other articles with similar systems, eg Edward I. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 09:38, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty could you please explain how to conduct a source spotcheck for a GA review? I'd like to know the process in British English. MSincccc (talk) 18:40, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

There's no set way to do it. WP:FACS has some guidance. I pick a number of sources to check (around 10–20) and choose numbers at random (this website does the trick). Check what info in the article the source is trying to back up and see if it corresponds. Sometimes there are a couple of refs after a statement, so if one source doesn't back up everything see if the other completes it. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:57, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty, can you guide me on how to conduct a source spotcheck specifically for Aishwarya Rai Bachchan's GA review? I don't have the time or motivation to go through each of the 300+ references individually especially for an article whose subject is unknown to me (I don't watch any native English films and to conduct a review for an Indian actress!). How did you manage this for articles like Diana, William, Catherine, and Philip's (given their length and numerous citations)? Is randomly guessing accurate? Please explain in British English without changing the meaning of the sentence. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 19:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Picking randomly gives you a sample of what the other refs will probably be like. If there are loads of inconsistencies then you can guess that there will also be inconsistencies in the others. Pick 20-odd refs from the Bachchan article and see how they stack up. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a-references; b-citations to reliable sources;c-Original Research How do I verify whether the article meets this criteria in a short span of time like you did? Please do let me know @Tim O'Doherty. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 07:32, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

• Factually accurate and verifiable - can be done through a spotcheck.
• References - see if any information still needs to be cited, has [citation needed] tags or if any statements have citation overkill.
• Reliable sources - look at all the sources and see if any are unreliable.
• Original research - read the article and see if there's anything that looks like synthesis (after something with 2 or more refs) or dodgy primary references that don't have any analysis in them after matter-of-fact statements. Can also be done via spotcheck. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:38, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Earthshot Prize GAN

Would you take up the Earthshot Prize for GA review if I nominate it presently? The comments can come later at your pleasure. Would you mind taking it up today? Regards. MSincccc (talk) 09:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC) Have you considered your decision? @Tim O'Doherty Please do let me know soon. I do not want to keep asking. It feels awkward you know. Cheers till then. MSincccc (talk) 12:44, 21 April 2024 (UTC) I might pick it up later. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:02, 21 April 2024 (UTC) You can transclude the review today, and post your comments at your convenience. My school sessions have just begun, and I believe the sooner you complete the review, the better, as I can then deactivate temporarily. You'll notice the "User in school" message on my user page, indicating my current status. As a middle schooler, I think it would be best to conclude the GAR as soon as possible. Understand my position, please. MSincccc (talk) 13:32, 21 April 2024 (UTC) @Tim O'Doherty Great that you have passed Philip's article as GA. Looking forward to you taking up Earthshot Prize for GAR even as I await your response to my comments at Gates's peer review. You had said that you will consider the proposal previously made by me. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 17:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC) Good morning @Tim O'Doherty I hope you're well. Looking forward to seeing you transclude the GA review for the article Earthshot Prize. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 06:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Brandreth

Hi. Thanks for the comments on the GA review. I don't have access to the hard cover version of Brandreth's book on Elizabeth and Philip at the moment but it seems that you have full access to the online archived version (I can only see a limited number of pages). It appears that the same version of the book has been cited at Elizabeth II and there is overlap between the two articles so I was wondering whether you would run into the same problems there as well if you were to spot check the parts on her page. I'm trying to figure out if the issues lies with the online version or not. Keivan.f^Talk 06:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Alright. It appears that the book was first cited by User:DrKay back in 2008 when they first expanded the article 1, 2, 3. They also used the same source for Elizabeth II's article 4. Given their track record in promoting multiple FAs, I really doubt they have mis-cited anything. I'm not sure what's going on with the online version. Keivan.f^Talk 06:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

OK. @DrKay, if you've the time can you link to the version you're using? If not, @Keivan.f, I don't think it's too big of an issue: I can trust that the numbers must correspond to other pages. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

ISBN 0-7126-6103-4. Page 408 can be seen for free at https://archive.org/details/philipelizabeth0000bran/page/408/mode/2up?view=theater. DrKay (talk) 17:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, that works much better. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Earthshot Prize

@Tim O'Doherty I have recently nominated the above article for GA. I hope you will consider reviewing it soon, especially since Philip's review is coming to a close. I assure you that it will be an interesting read. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 18:15, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll consider it. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:24, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty How did you get the references categorised here? I want to do exactly the same for Gates's article. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 13:39, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

You'd have to convert every reference to an sfn. For example, the first ref:

would have to be put into a Citations section:

Citations

News articles

• "Gates steps down from Microsoft board but stays as advisor". Redmond. March 2020. Archived from the original on May 22, 2020. Retrieved May 11, 2021.

and then put in the article with an sfn:

Technology advisor of Microsoft

You'd have to repeat that for each of the references in the article. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:10, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Request

My school sessions have just begun, and I believe the sooner you complete the review, the better, as I can then deactivate temporarily. You'll notice the "User in school" message on my user page, indicating my current status. As a middle schooler, I think it would be best to conclude the GAR as soon as possible. The matter as it stands is that once the term progresses I would not be there to respond as actively to your GAR comments. This might be the last one for the time being. After that, I have to switch to school work and limit my activity here. Hence a GAR as soon as possible for the Earthshot Prize will be greatly appreciated. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 16:49, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

MSincccc, I understand your position and am sympathetic to it. However, I'm an unpaid volunteer and can't take up everything you ask me to just by virtue of you being in school. As I've said, I'll consider it, but I don't make any promises. If someone takes it up sooner than me, so be it. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:54, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

But you'll be able to take it up sometime this week, right? Assuming nobody else picks it up for review in the next two to three days? Can we agree on that? We've collaborated a lot, so you could at least give me this assurance. Also I want to hear from you on this reply. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 17:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I might, I might not. If I take it up, I'll take it up. If not, then not. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

But if you do take it up please do so before the end of this week. Looking forward to a response to this from you. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 18:32, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty Yes, please review the article as soon as possible. Once it's done, you won't have to worry about further reviewing requests at least for the summer. I did mention that you can post comments at your pleasure. I hope that this comment does not go unanswered. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 08:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

You have your answer. I might. I might not. You'll see if I do. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Would you mind fixing some of the refs you pointed out in Cameron's article under the "Early life and education" section? I believe you will have more material than me because I can't just buy books as freely as you. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 16:08, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

For most of them the issue isn't the quality of the refs, just the formatting. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Would you be able to assist with these changes, or perhaps make them yourself when you have the opportunity? This way, I can save time by not having to seek your suggestions. It would be fantastic to collaborate with someone like you. Making a few revisions shouldn't impact your ability to review Cameron's article for GA in the future, after all.MSincccc (talk) 17:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

You could assist me with the formatting for now. I won't ask for more at this moment. As for the Earthshot Prize GAN, I won't pester you further. Feel free to take it up whenever you like. However, please do help with the Cameron article because achieving GA-class status will also contribute to fulfilling one of the aspirations you've outlined on your user page. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 07:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Could you please provide guidance on how to format the references for Cameron's article? I'm happy to handle this task while waiting for the Earthshot Prize review. Your expertise on the article's references would be greatly appreciated. Regards, and please keep me informed.Will you please tell me how the formatting needs to be done for the references on Cameron's article? I could do this as long as the Earthshot Prize review is not taken up. You can just brief me about it as you know more about the article's references. Regards and do let me know. MSincccc (talk) 08:27, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I've not looked at the refs overall, but I'd say the minimum is {{Cite news |last= |first= |date= |title= |work= |url= |url-status= |access-date= |archive-url= |archive-date=}} and {{Cite book |last= |first=|title= |date= |publisher= |isbn=}}. This produces things like:

Cameron resigned following the outcome of the Brexit referendum. In 2023 he was made a peer by Rishi Sunak and appointed foreign secretary.

• Seldon, Anthony; Snowdon, Peter (2016). Cameron at 10: The Verdict. William Collins. ISBN 978-0-00-757551-0.
• Holl-Allen, Genevieve (13 November 2023). "The reason Rishi Sunak has made David Cameron a peer". The Daily Telegraph. Archived from the original on 14 November 2023. Retrieved 21 April 2024.

Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)