User talk:Skookum1/Archive 17

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Warning

Don't edit war on my talk page, or I will ask to have you blocked.

It's not up to me to disprove your claims, it's up to you to prove them. That's one of the most basic principals here. — kwami (talk) 08:30, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Gee, I'd have thought a linguist would know how to spell "principles"....but YOU have to prove YOUR claims, boyo, and you have yet to do that....I know you're not trying, because you've ignored the cites I've already provided, and also the input of KootenayVolcano and montanabw and others.......you go swaggering around, making false claims about me, and about these peoples, but have yet to produce CITE ONE to back up ANYTHING you've claimed. It's not up to me to disprove them, it's up to you to PROVE THEM. And you can't/won't and behave as though Canadian English norms are not worthy of your respect, anymore than indigenous sensitivities are.Skookum1 (talk) 09:54, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
oh, so it's OK for you to attack me but delete my response so that you keep your nose from having dirt on it? Then when I get my post through post-edit conflict you call it an edit war? I'm not the one who's "idiotic" mister......your claims are groundless and uncited there and on the RMs and since this is my page I'll tell you I think you're a coward (a) for deleting my response to your lies/accusation and (b) for not going RMs on these in the first place, as you knew you'd lose even if I and OldManRivers weren't around. What a waste of my fucking valuable time Wikipedia is turning out to be once again because of the unqualified passing judgement and invoking rules on subjects they're not qualified to talk about...and you, boyo, are definitely not in touch with Canadian English norms NOR with indigenous realities of the modern era. "I will ask to have you blocked" is another coward's move. You don't have to write articles about places in the Chilcotin where there's a need to distinguish the people mentioned when they are vs. the placenames derived from them....there's a reason for those article-names and it's not just because that's the name THEY use (they could care less about an amateur linguist in some "foreign" country such as you are) but because the complications of saying "the Chilcotin people have lived in teh Chilcotin for a long time" or "the Chilcotin people lived in the Chilcotin Ranges" and so on.......DUH. your pretense that these terms don't exist in English and are not possible or citable to pronounce is complete and utter hogwash. You're the one that needs blocking Kwami, not me. Tons of people begged me to come back after I boycotted this often-absurd place after the Harper article fiasco/block in 2011......you're reminding me why it's a good idea to just say "fuck it, it's run by pretentious idiots who like to argue on non-points, I have a lift to lead"....you haven't provided any cites, or even tried for the things you've claimed, and you've made FALSE STATEMENTS about what I've said (like that thing about /k/), in the meantime I've gone finding those press manuals that you probably will say aren't valid cites, and I point you to existing known pronunciations (Statliumh, Shekwapmuk and Kitunaha, which have "new and proper" spellings "St'at'imc, Secwepemc, and Ktunaxa). But you just ignore anything I say and start making false claims about me. Get a grip buddy, and if you don't want to have someone respond to lies you tell about them on your talkpage, don't tell lies.........it's a given that these names are current in Canadian English, and the ones you prefer are outdated and looked at askance now, that you dont' know how to pronounce them is your problem; that I can find cites (=in the process of locating them) for the pronunciation and point to the historical record to prove that it's already known how to pronounce them even though you're demaning cites is just rubbish. I can't find a cite for Sheshatshiu's English pronunciation, either, but that doesn't mean it shouldn've have a Wikipedia article or should have an "English: title suitable to your prejudices and hard-headed cite-happiness; what would you want, a title that goes "some Indian reserve north of North West River, Labrador"?? I'm waiting for your attempt to unilaterally move Anishinaabe or Mi'kmaq, that should be entertaining.Skookum1 (talk) 08:52, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

For those wondering what prompted this exchange here is the material that Kwami deleted/censored from his page, on both edits call "rv idiotic comments" They are anything but idiotic and respond to his misrepresentations about the articles in question he lists, and his accusatory and misleading comments about me and my position:


For those who are interested, the proposed moves are at:

Talk:Lillooet people#Requested move
Talk:Kutenai people#Requested move 2
Talk:Thompson people#Requested move
Talk:Shuswap people#Requested move
Talk:Chilcotin people#Requested move

For all I know, all of the proposed names are assimilated into English and have established English pronunciations. But Skookum has not provided any evidence of that. Using a foreign name in print is not uncommon, nor is code switching for people who know the language, but I suspect that does not make it accessible to many of our readers. IMO "authenticity" takes a back seat to accessibility, commonality, etc., but maybe that's not the consensus on WP. — kwami (talk) 07:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

You have provided no support for your claims that there isn't an English pronunciation, and you know well (though maybe when you collapsed my post it was just a way to avoid answering to it) that I've gone to the extent of writing CBC and CTV to see if they have pronunciation guides and have to wait until the 21st for my contact with the government's orfficial-uses person in Victoria to get back from holidays. What I've provided evidence of, which you IGNORE over and over, is the use of all of these words by such as the Royal British Columbia Museum and UBC Museum of Anthropology in their displays and web publications in English and you presume to say that because there's no "established pronunciation" for them (which you claim while never having been here) that that somehow invalidates them as (a) English words and (b) Wikipedia titles. Accessibility to our readers is indeed the issue, and so if someone who reads about "Ktunaxa" in a BC newspaper or government report, when they come here they'll find the archaic and Montana-specific "Kutenai" and wonder WTF...or will take it that THAT is correct, as if it were more valid. Which you claim it is but have yet to provide a cite for any such claim. These are not "foreign names"....which makes it sound like they're in Russian or Urdu. These are national languages and part of the Canadian social and cultural reality, not titles on some old books on some shelf in some linguist's office somewhere. They are not foreign in Canada in the slightest. You are, however, for sure.....unless you live back east somewhere; you're clearly not from BC or know much about the Ktunaxa people in-person or see them regularly in print as i and others around here do. Because you are ignorant of the "established English pronunciation" doesn't mean it doesn't exist; like with St'at'imc/Stlatliumh an older anglicization exists which you prefer to ignore (Kitunahan for the language, Tunaha or Kitunaha for the people). Your pretension about this and your constantly trying to defame me for not producing cites you don't bother trying to find yourself is more than irritating; it's insulting. And highly ignorant of native cultural realities in Canada and in linguistics (your field, no?). Are you going to insist that WikiProject Anishinaabe change its name to something suitable to your frame of reference, also? "have established English pronunciations" is true also of Tshilqot'in, St'at'imc, Nlaka'pamux and Ktunaxa; that you claim these don't exist because I can't give you a citation while refusing to prove that they ("X people") are indeed known by "more people worldwide" is just hypocrisy and deflection, pure and simple. No doubt you will tell me once CBC and CTV provide me their pronunciation guides that you don't consider them valid citations.....well, you know what? You're not a valid citation, either, and have made a series of false claims and accusations in all of these that are very, very, very out of line. Speaking of /q/, are you going to unilaterally move Mi'kmaq to Micmac people "because there is no q in English"?? Canadian English has accepted these terms at the official and informal level....people learn new things every day, Kwami, you should try it sometime.....Skookum1 (talk) 08:13, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Quesnel isn't pronounced right in English, either.....have you figured that one out yet? Yes, it has an established pronunciation.....so do St'at'imc, Secwepemc and Tshilqot'in. That you are ignorant of them and I don't have a jim-dandy-off-the-shelf pronunciation guide yet doesn't mean they don't. That they are obviously in common use means that they DO. Instead of trying to wipe thjem off Wikipedia, without any concern for the category structures or other article-texts they will impact, is high-handedness and unilateral arrogance of the first order. Your unwarranted RMs are being challenged, and you don't like it, fine, obviously you were in the wrong in moving them the way you did; probably because you wanted to avoid having to justify yourself, which you continue to fail to do while saying I'm not. As if I'm not trying, and taking the time to research WHICH YOU ARE NOT.Skookum1 (talk) 08:18, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

It's not a matter of being pronounced "right". As a linguist, I'm only interested in *how* it's pronounced, not whether that pronunciation is correct according to some self-appointed judge. You are making the claim that these names have assimilated English pronunciations, and they very well might, but it's up to you to provide evidence for your claim. It doesn't have to be this minute, but you should provide some evidence that what you say is true. Claiming that you know they have English pronunciations when you don't even know what they are is not very convincing. — kwami (talk) 20:41, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Rubbish, I use them all the time, so do KootenayVolcano and The Interior and anyone else who lives in BC, including BC Hydro officials and engineers, regional district and municipal staff, Ministry of Environment and Ministry of Health personnel, and school district management and teachers. Your claim that "I don't even know what they are" is just more rubbish; I know well what they are, so do other speakers of English in BC who use them regularly. "As a linguist, I'm only interested in how they're pronounced" is irrelevant to the issue of their being the common and accepted use, and your narrow perspective and WP:OWN issue with ethno-linguistics content/articles is tiresome and has made most language articles a dry read for casual readers, "impenetrable", like your thick skull. Now stay off my talkpage with your lies and misrepresentations and posturing.Skookum1 (talk) 02:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Chillin?

Kwami, please stop your WP:BAITing of Skookum1. Skookum happens to be correct and you are beginning to act like a troll. That said, Skookum, remember WP:DFTT! You are beginning to rant, which is understandable under the circumstances, but you will probably have better luck winning allies if you stay cool. I hate it when people point me to WP:NAM, but we probably both need that pointer sometimes. You are in the right, Skookum1, just stay cool. Montanabw(talk) 17:11, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not "baiting" him. I'm asking him to provide evidence for his claims, and he says I'm the one who should do that. He seems to find it outrageous that people don't accept his claims without evidence, but that's how things work around here. He has said that he expects some sources to get back to him today, so hopefully that will clarify things. — kwami (talk) 20:36, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Pffft. Your latest post on the Kutenai one, about your cites, says "I've already posted them above". Nope, not one link or even written cite in any of your posts, either up and down. You're a bag of hot air with nothing to back up your claims; and you ignore KootenayVolcano and montanabw, and like I said in that one edit comment last night, you're sounding more and more like a Knight who says "Ni" demanding another shrubbery. Or the Demon of Useless Tasks in The Phantom Tollbooth. Stay off my talkpage with your lies and condescension and general nuisance-ness. You're boring.Skookum1 (talk) 01:24, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Skook, I've suffered as much as you have from Kwami's editing and the claims he makes, but answering PA with PA won't help your cause. Take Montana's advice and cool down. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Hugs Skook, looks like word is getting out about this situation... sit back and enjoy the show  ;) Montanabw(talk) 21:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Between that and the results of today's BC election, the results of which I'll start seeing in....eleven minutes, this might prove to be an entertaining day....Skookum1 (talk) 02:49, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Trust BC to one-up the rest of the country when it comes to utterly unexpected results. At least there was an obvious reason why the pollsters got Alberta so wrong. Will be interesting to see how they rationalize BC. Resolute 13:21, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, call me bitter and suspicious. The Interior (Talk) 14:36, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm long past the bitter, inanity by voters I've come to take for granted; I'm not completely surprised, and there were whiffs a few days ago, and some weird comments on HuffPo from the trollkind like "talk to you wednesday" as though they knew they had it in the bag. Bitter is not a useful emotion when dealing with a party that I believe deliberately alienates the voting public so they stay away from the polls altogether; the antipathetic folks who they know will vote against the government in power. The more outrage, the lest interest.......and I'm also far past suspicion into the realm of assumption. This reminds me all too much of 1983, which was another drowned-cat-out-of-the-bag situation in fact just like this one. Skelly also played nice. Bad mistake. I've heard reports of no scrutineers at quiet polling places....no scrutineers? From any party? You'd think the NDP would have that together; that the Liberals didn't bother says a lot to me, because they have all the money and mobilization in the world. This election was won by money and lies and manipulation, part of which I was used for (that second or third article said "Dix behind it", even though he wasn't.....wtf?). Dirty tricks are nothing new in BC, it's how 2001 one was one, it's how Campbell came to power, it went on under Vander Zalm and Miniwac; this time it's a question of how dirty. And about those Harper staffers that were sent in to help (get this) Patrick Kinsella, Mark Marrissen, Mike McDonald and other other nat'l level Grit inner circle gathered around her since Day One. Lots of people I know are saying - or just assuming - electoral fraud and/or rigging and box-stuffing. Even if there was, as we have seen with the federal situation, we have no mechanisms to deal with, and the same public who stayed home today are the ones who won't care that the election was a cheat; they assume it is anyway. But yes, Resolute, BC does have a way of standing itself on the head in curious ways; at least Weaver got in and Huntington kept her seat; Weaver will be like May is in the Commons, a one-man opposition unto himself, like Joy and Jenny were once-upon-a-time. Seeing Christy lose her own seat, but then she was never a Point Grey girl, not from that crowd; they never did like her, she's not one of them. And that riding also has a lot of educated folks in it i.e. the UEL and, gee, UBC students are still around too. Not gonna say nothing about policy, just commenting on the results....that the biggest voting bloc was 52% against the whole system is one of its biggest stories; it's interesting, it occurred to me that 30 years ago almost to the day was the Vancouver-Point Grey nomination for the Green Party by Adrienne Carr that prompted me to join and work my heart off for most of 1983; I remember it was April, I'd come down from Whistler out of curiosity...it was the attempt by the NDP to swamp the meeting with people trying to block any nomination that caused me to speak, and got them to leave so they would respect our democratic right to organize (as the unionite mantra goes). That was a very strange election too, about which much could be said but not meaning to blog here, just responding to what people have said.Skookum1 (talk) 14:52, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

hm, maybe April was the election or was it May? About a month before; main gist is that it took thirty years but the BCGP is now in the Leg....and yes, cost the NDP quite a few seats. But the one thing they never had was the environmental movement fully behind them in the first place, and their ties to the big industrial unions always meant industry would be catered to first, in those days the forest industry especially...it was in that same era where that same resource workbase began to shift sides away from the NDP, just because other elements in the NDP were embracing the green agenda; and trying to WP:OWN it. They never did, and that's why there were Green candidates that cost them those seats; they could have also seen the wisdom in not splitting the vote against the Liberals against their former cohort Bob Simpson, but split his vote. It's interesting that there were enough splinter votes on the North Saanich and the Island vote that were the same as the margin between the at least the top two, if not the top three maybe. Cons cost the Liberals one or two ridings here and there, too. the NDP shouldn't bitch too loudly about losing seats; they blocked the first proportional vote referendum's outcome/recommendation which would have seen three Greens gets seats today, and two Tories. Probably more if people hadn't been swayed by the either/or thing that prevails in BC, the famous polarity that typifies the place; schizo that it is to the core. i.e. higher percentages for the splinter parties because people would know those aren't "wasted votes".....the wasted votes today, though, were the ones that weren't used.Skookum1 (talk) 15:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Hope

'30 miles beyond Hope' wouldn't match the T-shirts, bumper-stickers, and other stuff that Spuzzum probably sells for income. I am okay leaving it out of the article though. If you know anyone in that area can you see if they can take a picture of the sign that says "You are now leaving Spuzzum" on both sides of the same sign? I couldn't find any free ones on the net. I assume they still have one and it may help their article. A good graphics artist on commons may be able to do some animation or something to show both sides. A video may work as well or just side by side images of the same sign.--Canoe1967 (talk) 04:38, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

That sign is long-gone, though I and others remember it well. Maybe there's something in the museum in Yale, or maybe the Spuzzum Band might have some old pics, they're pretty friendly I'll try and take the time to write them, unless you'd care to first. The sign outlived the store, I think.Skookum1 (talk) 04:42, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
there's no retail outlet of any kind in Spuzzum anymore; there's only the reserve (across the tracks from the highway) and it doesn't look inhabited there, still has a few hundred residents I think, or a hundred anyway, including a few non-natives on some non-IR lands. The nearest store to there would be in Yale, which of course is just at the other end of the Yale Tunnel on the TC....the museum in Hope might have something.....and the souvenir rack in the truck stop at Dogwood Valley. Canyon town articles we need more of; I've been putting off starting Boothroyd's, Chapman's, and Canyon Alpine for a while because of lack of materials other than what's on BC Names and what can be found in old travel writeups and gold rush/wagon road histories.....even Alexandria had a store back in my day.....Skookum1 (talk) 04:46, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
They may make another sign if we promise to put it in their article. If we make it really nice and humourous they may become a popular place to visit. Just erect it off the highway and tourists would probably stop there more. Any retail on the horizon for them? I may get a graphics friend at commons to do a few mock-ups that they can choose from. I have brothers in the Kootenays and Jasper that could make and paint it if they want to hire it out. Fred Curatolo does humourous signs locally and may take it on as well if they want a famous creator.--Canoe1967 (talk) 09:11, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Don't know the story on who has the property where the store is now. Thing is any retail/restaurant there would have to be special to get people to stop; Yale is full of half-out-of-business places and anyone going north is gonna fill up and chow there if they need to, or already did at Dogwood Valley or in Hope.......it's not like the old days, when the highway was slower-going. The band might want to do it though....a way to get T'sama to understand there's nowhere to stop and hang around in, other than the ice cream and postcard and carvings stand they could put up......if they want to. A sign south of Dogwood Valley saying "you are now nearing Hope" and one in the opposite direction "you have left Hope behind" though could make a splash...until vandalized LOL. Dante it's not (liasciatare all'esperenza, tutti chi entrata chi....).Skookum1 (talk) 09:28, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
I keep getting you two mixed up, sorry. I thought you were both in the Lower Rainland. I grew up there but I haven't got any connections left. What I should to is email the foundry in Calgary. I think they do most of Western Canada and the NW US. They may have some very nice images or know who to contact. I also created http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Canoe1967/Sculptors that may get us more images. Victoria has one that I would like for an article so I may just spam the Christy Clark and see if she is willing to take one. It would be cute to have photos by famous folk to help our articles. There are hundreds of statues here in Edmonton and that may be why I haven't gotten many shots yet, just too daunting. I should just get all of our MLAs to take them for us to get glory votes. I guess spamming the party whips would be the best route. I have been helping a subject with her article images and she has some nice ones on her twitter. She travels a lot so I should make a list of needed images for her and create a sub-category in her commons category to host them all. Her fans may enjoy looking through all her of wiki-travel shots there.--Canoe1967 (talk) 12:48, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Tarzan

The comic strips you remember are by Russ Manning, and are being reprinted in Comics Revue magazine (which I edit). Rick Norwood (talk) 11:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello, Skookum1. You have new messages at Djembayz's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

03:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)}}

Powell River-Sunshine Coast

It's listed as a Vancouver Island riding on {{British Columbia provincial electoral districts 2009-}}. If that's wrong, it needs to be fixed there too, because that's what I was going by. Bearcat (talk) 02:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

K, yes it's wrong for sure; I'll remove it from that template; it adjoins the Lower Mainland to the northwest on the other side of Howe Sound and is part of the Mainland/Southwest Development Region, which is the SCRD, GVRD, SLRD and FVRDs combined (StatsCan has a "Lower Mainland - Southwest" grouping which is the same....but has different stats, I don't know why). One VI ridings e.g. North Island, whatever it's called now, includes the sparsely populated mainland opposite it (mostly IRs); the Mt Waddington RD does the same,and I think one other, I'd have to look at the map; the original Comox riding was the whole Coast, and including the Skeena/Nass/Stikine right up to the Yukon boundary.Skookum1 (talk) 02:26, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Hm the regional breakdown names are part of the problem, not sure where they came from, maybe Elections BC itself, or from the Sun maybe...."Vancouver Island/South Coast" is a misnomer, as "South Coast" includes Greater Vancouver and North Island's grasp on the Mainland is the Central Coast, not South Coast. And the North Coast riding is usually grouped, and "culturally" part of, the other coastal ridings; North/Central as a grouping is awkward; other than North Coast they're all Interior ridings (even Stikine); people in PG and Williams Lake consider that to be Central Interior, ditto the Ft St James/Omineca/Nechako area folks. The Fraser Valley-South LM and Vancouver-North LM groupings also don't work for me; the Chilliwack riding includes parts of Mission and also Agassiz/Kent, which are northern Lower Mainland; I see previous templates of this kind have the same breakdown; someone may revert my changes to the template; under the title "Vancouver Island-South Coast" Powell River was "ok".."Vancouver Island-Coast" would be better because of North Island, but then North Coast would belong in it too.Skookum1 (talk) 02:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment style

Hi Skookum - I appreciate the knowledge you have of this space, I just have a request - when you comment at CFD and elsewhere, your sentences are run-on sentences punctuated with semicolons and jumping from topic to topic. While it may make sense to you, when I read your comments, which are often quite long as well (I'm guilty of that too), I often have trouble parsing them. Just a friendly suggestion to consider the style of your comments.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:29, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

"run-on mind" compounded by speed-typing and, yes, a very tangential mind and very complicated subjects. I'm starting to realize bullet-pointing things may work out better, but so many points are interconnected it's hard to do; that TLNDR thing for me, when someone uses it, is just a way of admitting to a short attention span and/or lack of real interest in the matters at hand. Skookum1 (talk) 06:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Sometimes. But really, the past few comments you've posted, I've had real trouble parsing. Just saying, in a friendly way, perhaps consider formatting differently or making shorter, punchier sentences - your point will come across better, which is what you want anyway.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 06:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Old habit are hard to break LOL but I'll try. One thing I've found extremely frustrating is people not reading cites they've asked for, and then asking for them again, and so I have to repeat myself when I'd rather not have to......plus the many non sequitur or bad-example responses. It ain't just that certain someone; there's one case (Hitomaro) where I responded succinctly to the four queries, then was insulted about not responding, as if I hadn't, and saying I wasn't capable of "adult communication"...what I'm seeing is not a lot of adult thinking and people reading emotions into things that aren't emotional....just involved/voluble.Skookum1 (talk) 06:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Categorisation Barnstar
For continuing work on keeping categories sensible, especially recently, and ongoing, with regard to indigenous peoples, such as Secwepemc and Category:Secwepemc, Nlaka'pamux and Category:Nlaka'pamux, Tsilhqot'in and Category:Tsilhqot'in, etc. (And because I can't find a decent barnstar for work on indigenous peoples!) Pfly (talk) 23:43, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Any chance you'll be at Wikimania HK?

Hiya Skookum, I've been running into some of the Wikimedia Canada folks at various meetings ... a few of them have met you, others not. If you're off in that neck of the woods, any chance you'll be able to swing by [Hong Kong]? You can get a lot of synergy going by meeting folks in person ... (I have to pass this one up, but hoping for 2014!) Djembayz (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Provided I make some money between now and August, it's a possibility...I passed up the chance to win one of the scholarships but didn't bring my name forward, I was just back in Wikipedia and assumed, maybe wrongly, I wouldn't have the necessary support from other WPCAN editors....it would be very interesting, true, and if all goes well I'll still be either here on Samui or somewhere in the Phils......so maybe.Skookum1 (talk) 03:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Don't be shy-- the first Wikipedia editor I met in RL was Ottava Rima :) It's really way more fun to meet other Wikipedians in person! Djembayz (talk) 20:29, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
It won't be about being shy, it's about money LOL. HK's one of the most expensive places in Asia, though I can get there easy enough; there's even direct flights from Samui.Skookum1 (talk) 03:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

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May 2013

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PacifiCat categories

You asked for someone to look into PacifiCat categories. I found Template:PacifiCat ferries and Category:PacifiCat-class ferries and put them both up for deletion as unnecessary. Please comment on these proposals. Gwsk55970 (talk) 22:14, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Dabbing Rivers

S1, I'm filling in some of the Fraser tributary redlinks (Raush River, Goat River (Fraser River), and I'm wondering what the best dab setup is. Some appear to be "Foo (Fraser River)" and some "Foo" (Fraser). Which is more proper? (and although its none of my beeswax, the guy above apologized to you, and I think you should accept. Apologies are pretty rare around here!) The Interior (Talk) 19:25, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

"Fraser River". The guy did apologize, but only in an edit comment, which is not appropriate when an ANI is underway referencing his comments; if he wants to apologize, let him do it properly; and recant his position about his highly OR and SYNTH and PEACOCK article and its mis-use of images to advance conclusions. That article is a personal essay, advancing synthesis right and left, and does not belong on Wikipedia, nor does the attitude displayed by him, including in the ANI. And re {{Canadian colonies}}, if we included all "named territories" (Straumsford was a place, not a territory) there would be another fifty items on that template....which seriously needs renaming and weed-whacking.Skookum1 (talk) 01:59, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Second the form "Foo River (Fraser River)". WP:NCRIVER describes various disambigging (disambiging?) approaches. Personally, if I saw "Foo River (Bar)" and didn't recognize "Bar" as a river name I might think it was a geopolitical region. Although in Europe they don't tend to use the word "River" in their river names. Pfly (talk) 02:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I might think it was a beer parlour ;-). The primary dab for a Canadian river article, if there's no others of the same name in teh same province, is "([ province ])". Beyond that it's whatever it's tributary to.Skookum1 (talk) 02:45, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes. Of course there's lots of variation and weirdness out there wrt river dabbing. Sometimes you get a common name occurring more than once as tributaries to the same river. The Fraser has two Salmon River tributaries (and BC has at least four more). Salmon River lists one as Salmon River (Fraser River) and the other as a redlink, Salmon River (Langley). Another strange one I just found is Beaver River. There's two in BC with articles, dabbed by what they are tributaries of, but there's also Beaver River (Canada)...I guess the logic being that it's in more than one province... Pfly (talk) 02:56, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
That needs a hatnote on the Prairies one for sure because of the "Canada" dab which maybe should be the main dab page for all three (maybe there's more to the east?).....the Beaver River in the Rogers Pass is, I think, more notable; the other I'm not sure where it is just at the moment.....the Salmon River in Langley kinda has to be dabbed that way; the alternative would be "Lower Mainland" as "Fraser Valley" would be too confusing re "Fraser River". It's very minor, more like a slow-moving creek; it and the Serpentine and Nicomekl were used as canoe routes with short portages connecting Mud Bay/Boundary Bay to Fort Langley.Skookum1 (talk) 03:05, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
The Holmes River is also a Beaver. We got all varieties of dabbing going on in Category:Rivers of British Columbia. Central Kootenay? I'm going to change that one. And the lakes? Shouldn't those go to the river system? The Interior (Talk) 03:09, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Central Kootenay is a new usage, created by the government when re-aligning RDs and electoral districts; that's the West Kootenay geographically speaking. Not sure what you mean by the lakes, are there some in the rivers category? Those on the list page are not all italicized as some are; they should be, I think.Skookum1 (talk) 03:14, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Something else I just noticed. Perhaps Peace River should be Peace River (disambiguation) and Peace River (Canada) should just be Peace River. The one in Florida is quite minor. Pfly (talk) 04:03, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Makes sense to me, but would require discussion with the US and Geography WP folks, I'd say.....Skookum1 (talk) 04:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Get a life

You seriously need to get a life. Narssarssuaq (talk) 14:06, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I hate ANIs, but here we go. Your illicit removal of the very valid OR and SYNTH templates another user replaced before I had a chance to.Skookum1 (talk) 14:16, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Sorry. Narssarssuaq (talk) 14:51, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

June 2013

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Deadmau(5/s) etc.

Hi Skookum, if you're curious about my rationale behind the close for Deadmaus (formerly Deadmau5), I replied to another user at User talk:BDD#deadmau5 move discussion closure. I can't speak to UJ3RK5, however. On the face of it, at least, it seems like a different case just because it's not as straightforward. With Deadmaus, the 5 clearly corresponds to S, what we might call a one-to-one relationship, like Ke$ha. So there's no doubt it's a stylization. UJ3RK5 would seem to be more like NOS4A2, which I think should not be renamed, as that's the book's actual title, and it's unlikely that reliable sources are calling it anything else. Do reliable sources refer to the band as "Ujerks" or something like it? If so, it may fall under MOS:TM as well. As for Esla7an and the like, this to me is very clearly not within MOS:TM, as the number represents an orthographic convention, not a stylization. An analogous case is !Kung language. --BDD (talk) 18:50, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Always as UJ3RK5, and near-invariably they will include "and the five is silent".Skookum1 (talk) 04:08, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Please see the CfD on Category:Squamish, which formerly was a diacriticalized Squamish-language Skwxwu7mesh, which in non-diacriticalized form is what I'd pfefer to see it back at.....because Squamish, British Columbia is the primary usage of Squamish...and other endonym-named articles have recently been succesfully RM'd back to their endonym forms from colonialist/anthropological usages; they are common in Canadian English now e.g. St'at'imc, Secwepemc etc....Skwxwu7mesh isn't accepted in English usage as much; guidelines on native endonyms are sorely needed to prevent such HASSLES and mistaken speedies, articles and cats both, in future...Skookum1 (talk) 04:12, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
You're probably right about the guideline. Regardless, I don't think RMs regarding artistic stylizations are useful precedents for cases of non-English orthography like that. If anyone tries to argue such, feel free to let me know and I'll fuss at them. --BDD (talk) 16:11, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Notability tags

Hi Skookum,

I was under the impression that any maintenance tags that do not have corresponding discussion on the talk page can simply be removed by anyone. I apologize if I have violated policy or guidelines and would be glad for you to point me to them.

Neelix (talk) 17:06, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

From what I understand, tags of any kind, from POV through the gamut to unreferenced and cleanup, are not to be wantonly (and rapidly) deleted. Your citations are only evetn listings and "so and so spoke here" sorts of things; they are not in any way establishing genuine notability......I'm pressed for time and so when I saw the initial item, which to me is nothing more than church-spam, I didn't even bother to place the wp:Canada template on them.....and was going to get to them in the morning (it's midnight here) or the next day anyway, as Five Stones I did that earlier; but have a real life outside of Wikipedia in need of tending to. You added them to the Columbia Street page as little more than directory listings; only as directory listings, in fact. These are not notable in any way other than to their congregation/pastor or owner/clientele......I know New Westminster very well; they do not deserve pride of place in a description of that street and its services/history/businesses.....not even close. They're well written and properly formatted as far as citations go; but what's on them is WP:TRIVIA and WP:UNDUE. And reek of WP:SPAM.Skookum1 (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Racialised Canadian demographics

Hi there. I just whacked a big chunk off the "Visible Minorities" section of Demographics of Canada. I think you and I agree on many of the aspects of this particular debate. I'm hoping you'll help me keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't head off in some random direction (or at least, without securing consensus, first!) In reality, I have to do a bit more work there, because the bit about Aboriginal Canadians just shouldn't be in that section. However, I needed to get started on it - it hurt my brain to know that it was there. AshleyMorton (talk) 18:17, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, well it's not just the segregationalism that's implied, but that on many town articles where visible minorities are barely a blip that's all there is in the demographics sections, even if it's only zero fields. "Someone", I don't know who, has also been changing Census Canada definitions to "White" and "Black" and on the Abbotsford article changing "East Indian" to "Indian". As a mixed-ethnicity person, but not mixed-visible minority of aboriginal, it irks me that Census Canada doesn't provide ethnicity breakdowns like they do for only large centres and whole provinces; the "aboriginals are not visible minorities" equation comes from Census Canada itself though.....demographics is about so much more than race or ethnicity; US articles generally do a better job of it, though in any article to see 0.01% of something when it's, um, two or three people, is just asinine. Birth rates and average age, economic and work information, that's demographics; the Canadian demographics sections are almost always exclusively about race, and tub-thumping about how many of which are in, say, Terrace or Flin Flon. This is one of those cases, as in that terminology issue, where "White" has been substituted for "European", that someone has gone and done so much that it's a lot of work for someone else to clean up, item by item.....all the bot-freaks out there should spend their time coming up with a way to patrol such tables, and also to delete the zero fields/rows. There's so little work on actual content now, and so much quibbling over category/article names, how bots and things like conversion templates or infoboxes are designed, that the rate of inclusion of new, worthwhile content is decreasing; as a good writer and historian/geographer it's becoming less and less useful and worthwhile for me to continue here, and I do have the habit of engaging the meaningless agendas, partly because their meaninglessness has impacted important titles and content and categories and more......anyways, yes, we need a working group and some data hounds to redress all the obsession with featuring visible minorities above all other information; even when they're irrelevant. Do we really need to know there's no Koreans, for instance, in Blue River BC, or no "West Asians" in Clinton, BC? (there might be, but how relevant is it if there's only 3 or 10 of each?)Skookum1 (talk) 02:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Fort Grahame Waterdrome

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Haida villages in Alaska

If I understand the comment in your edit summary correctly: Hydaburg is most definitely a Haida village. I'm sure I've read a bunch of times over the years that it's where the village's name derives from. Not entirely sure of any others, though. Nearby, Klawock is most definitely a Tlingit village, but Craig appears to have become home for many Haida. In fact, arguably the most notable modern-day Alaskan Haida is Jerry Mackie, who is from Craig. Of course, they can also be found in abundance in larger cities such as Juneau and Ketchikan. RadioKAOS  – Talk to me, Billy 20:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Just added name origin info to the Hydaburg, Kasaan, and Klawock pages. They were all in Bright's Native American place name book. Pfly (talk) 22:52, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Please add them also to List of Haida villages and the associated category; which should have the Alaskan region/census-area categories added as parent(s) like Haida Gwaii's populated places category is. I got a reply from the Kaigani Haida about doing a proper pages on them, also, have to get back to her later (in point form, she asks LOL).Skookum1 (talk) 04:11, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Languages

I think Talk:Ji-Lu Mandarin#Requested move 3 shows the problem isn't just BC. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:46, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

yes, I know, I guess you just got my note; I just emended it, too....I need to go to bed, it's 1:49 am where I am....and I'm grating because between issues like this one, and some AfDs about a nest of articles created by a certain admin that just should never have been in Wikipedia at all, anything useful that I am planning to do within wikipedia, or my own writing activities outside of it (which are my only hope of survival now, having no safety net), may well wind up forcing me out of Wikipedia again out of sheer frustration...I have important articles to write, and to fix, and I'm finding myself picking up the garbage too often...and tracing things back in some cases like what I've posted about on your page, it comes back to the same person/renegade. I don't want to be an admin, no sirree no, but I do feel that my years of real-world experience and readings should qualify me to bypass changes made by ....well, not gonna bother choosing a word there, you get my drift....oh, but "everyone is equal" here, right? Meaning that the uninformed and shallow/narrow-minded can screw things up for those who are informed and deep-minded, and being articulate is made to sound like a "rant", "anger" or WP:TLDNR. Aaaaaaaaagh. Equality be damned, t here should be some non-admin role beyond "autoconfirmed" where I can fix these problems without having to find a friendly admin who understands and has the time......shit, it's 7 minutes later now since my last written time-stamp, I gotta go to bed. If you haven't gotten involved in those CfRs, could you please close them. And move Sto:lo people to Sto:lo in the process; the diacritical form was always POV to start with, for one thing....delicacies of intertribal politics completely lost on people who don't know anything about them, and who make it clear that they don't care, only what Wikipedia guidelines say counts......this place is becoming a "bearpit of mediocrity"...I'm grateful for those out there like yourself capable of hearing me out....g'nite from Lamai Beach, Koh Samui, Thailand.Skookum1 (talk) 18:58, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Supreme Court of British Columbia

All courts in BC use the UK Coat of Arms as the symbols, unlike other courts in Canada. For example, you will see the Coat of Appeal Annual Report prominently display the CoA in its first page. [1], in the Supreme Court direction [2] and in the Provincial Court [3]. This matter was long debated ago and it's a settled matter. I am not sure why this debate is being re-opened at this stage.--Cahk (talk) 05:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

That's news to me but I see your point e.g. here. Debates often get re-opened in Wikipedia as I've been experiencing lately with various article/category-name changes that fly in the face of existing conventions and previous RMs and CfDs......I suggest you post a notice somewhere on WP:CANTALK and WP:BC about this; quite often other Canadian editors than those in BC edit things about BC without regard to the BC context or BC's history and language usage etc......Skookum1 (talk) 06:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
I've actually sat in a SCBC courtroom (opening day of the BC Rail trial) and never noticed that; but I've been in a courtroom elsewhere in Canada, either. And I was really really jet-lagged too, kept on dozing off, hope I didn't snore before getting up to leave; there was a young sheriff seated to my right in the row behind looking at me wonderingly LOL.Skookum1 (talk) 07:19, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
BC is not alone in unique court symbols. Courts in Newfoundland also use a simplified version of the UK CoA. Other courts such as the ON Superior Court of Justice, Federal Court and CMAC have been granted their own CoA. In all other cases, provincial courts use provincial CoA while superior and appeal courts use the Canadian CoA.--Cahk (talk) 08:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

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My edit summary error

Strike "or all" from this edit summary. Embarrassing error! Hwy43 (talk) 07:15, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

For tolerating my error, I've transferred the content to List of communities in British Columbia on your behalf. Hwy43 (talk) 07:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Those that became municipalities is why I'd included them.Skookum1 (talk) 07:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
How about embedding notes for the three entries indicating such? Hwy43 (talk) 07:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Busy right now; the mentions should be in the BC Names listing for each. Cassiar I vaguely remember has having been on the UBCM.....trying to remember others. A full list of company towns for BC alone would actually be quite large, especially when large mining camps and canneries are factored in.Skookum1 (talk) 07:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
BC Names confirms outright for Granisle. I'll add it. The two others not so much. I'll be at a conference in Vancouver until Tuesday. I'll spend some downtime researching. Hwy43 (talk) 07:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Tumbler Ridge may have been founded as a municipality, like Jumbo was, without having any population yet; I'd thought it was a company town...Wells I know who to ask, there was more than one mine there but at least part of what is now the District was company property for sure.....greater Bralorne had easements and outlying areas like Ogden that weren't company town. Camp McKinney, Copper Mountain/Allenby and others are "out there" too....some company towns like "Bridge River" where I'm from (part of Shalalth) were on IR and though all only company inhabitants, had no reason to be incorporated. Fraser Mills definitely was a village municipality until amalgamation with Coquitlam, but it was a company town (the CEO was the mayor, there were no elections), I t hink Hammond also was a company town, and maybe non-municipal before amalgamation.Skookum1 (talk) 08:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Found one for Tumbler Ridge and it is now added. Will look for Wells sometime in the next few days. Hwy43 (talk) 08:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Decided to quickly find one for Wells as well. Hwy43 (talk) 08:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I was just doing that but didn't feel like hunting through the District's website, which should have something more than BC Names would.Skookum1 (talk) 08:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

"North American Indian"

Thanks for the positive comments (in general) and the clarification (in specific) about the term "North American Indian". I grew up in Bella Coola so, of course, I too know many people who refer to themselves and others as "Indians", though I would suggest that that has a growing sense of I-know-it's-politically-incorrect-but-I'm-going-to-use-it-anyway. It's really tough to lump it together, because it seems to me that the Nuxalk and the Heiltsuk, for example, are as different as the Irish and the Scottish. That is to say they obviously share a number of key cultural indicators and traditions, but are different enough that you're silly to lump them together. That's my biggest problem with the "Ethnic Origin" questions. If the statistics are willing to break out Irish, Scottish (even Cornish, ffs), then it seems unreasonable to include Cree, Nuxalk, Dene and Mic'mac under one label. I think some structure like they do with British (You know "British, not otherwise specified") would be appropriate. In the meantime, I'm going to be slavisly adhere to the StatsCan usage, because I think that is actually the least political option.

I bounce back and forth between two impressions of these editors who are constantly adding what I'm calling "racialised" data into the articles. Sometimes I hypothesise that it's truly abhorrent white-supremacy stuff where the work is often an attempt to demonstrate either that "whites" are dominant or that "non-whites" are a threateningly large number (yeah, I know those two goals require contradictory numbers, but I didn't say they were smart). The other option is simply someone from the US who has grown up with an understanding of race that is just not matched by the Canadian experience, and certainly not by Canadian statistics. Historically, in so many places in the US, there really were only two definitions - "White" and "Black", and it was reasonably easy to keep such statistics, if one wished. Hence, if you're an American looking at a Canadian article, it's not *patently* unreasonable to wonder "Hey, where are their race stats?", because it's a fundamental part of so many demographic discussions in the US. If I'm in a saintly assume-good-faith headspace, then I assume it's just some of those folks trying to fill a gap that only they can see. The other option is really kinda scary. AshleyMorton (talk) 15:44, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, to me it's more about ethnicity than race; the difference between a St'at'imc and neighbouring Nlaka'pamux, Nicola, and others is indeed often visible as well as audible. "First Nations" creates a racial term - constitutional definition in fact - that is overtly racial ie. "pure" (status) Amerinds vs Metis and Inuit, plus the artificial demarcation by the US/Canada border. That such race tables are available for communities with almost no visible minorities, but ethnicity tables e.g. by country of origin of selves or ancestors, for the same towns are more relevant (e.g. Kitimat has a large Portugese contingent, Terrace and Prince Rupert have lots of Hungarians, Revelstoke and Trail are notably Italian in composition, and so on....so it's not just StatsCan that's racially-motivated with promoting availability of race breakdowns, it's also people who want to play, as we have seen, name games. The complicating issue is that primary sources are not supposed to be used, but census data is, even though it's primary source.Skookum1 (talk) 08:33, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Commons spelling solution

See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category_talk:Images_from_the_Canadian_Copyright_Collection_at_the_British_Library if you haven't already. We are simply making a list on the cat talk page.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

July 2013

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