User talk:RDAndrew
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May 2011
Please do not add or change content without verifying it by citing reliable sources, as you did to List of sultans of Sulu. Before making any potentially controversial edits, it is recommended that you discuss them first on the article's talk page. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Please do not add the "legitimate successor" section. I understand that you can call that someone as legitimate though he is not recognized by any government entity, as well as the Sultanate is not a legal state recognized by a body of nations.
Also, please stop adding the flag on Sulu Sultanate as if it is the real flag of the former state, — JL 09 talkcontribs 11:53, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
House of Kiram vs. Royal House of Sulu
What is the proper name of the Royal House of Sulu? Here in Wikipedia, the ruling royal house of a kingdom or principality or duchy is named like House of Name. For example, the ruling royal house of Bavaria wasn't called as such as Royal House of Bavaria instead it was called as House of Wittelsbach. To call it such Royal House of Bavaria is too specific, there are other families in the kingdom of Bavaria before that can be called on as the "Royal House", for example, the Wettins. Also, the ruling royal house of England isn't called as Royal House of the United Kingdom, instead House of Windsor. The "of (name)" syntax, the "name" is the surname or dynastic name of the family.
In case of Sulu, you cannot also call the Kiram family as the Royal House of Sulu, it is too specific. Before the first Kiram ascended to power in late 19th century, there are other royalties in Sulu. All of which is a Royal House of Sulu during their eras. Can you name any of them? First you have the Hashemite family, or you can call it the House of Hashem. After intermarriages with the Majapahit, Brunei, Sri Vijaya etc. royal families, it came the House of Adinda or House of Maharajah Adinda whatever you wish to call it. Then the House of Shakir or House of Shakir ul-Lah (or Shakiraullah, whatever). Then finally the House of Kiram. Each of them is the royal house of
That is the reason why moving the Royal House of Sulu to House of Kiram, more proper, and more specific name.--— JL 09 talkcontribs 13:18, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Dear Colleague,.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Luxembourg. I agree there are many Royal Houses in Sulu (some of them are self-styled) but the current ruling Royal House of Sulu is Royal House of Kiram, as the last recognised Sultan of Sulu, Raja Muda's father was Head of the Royal House of Kiram and by the law of succession Raja Muda is now the head of Royal House of Kiram and also Head of Royal House of Sulu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RDAndrew (talk • contribs)
- As you might want to know, Luxembourg is a surname. In German proper spelling, it is spelled as Luxemburg. When the Principality of Luxembourg or the country of it that you know of today was created in mid-19th century, it was named after the dukes who were given authority to rule the country.--— JL 09 talkcontribs 13:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC) Hmm, I assume Japan is the surname then also:D
list
Now, as for the List of sultans of Sulu,please refrain from adding the section Legitimate successor to the Sultan of Sulu from 1986-present. Raja Muda Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram of Sulu is not a legitimate successor to the throne, first, the Philippine government does not authorize in its constitution to secede Sulu and its islands to the sultanate because it was absorbed by the Carpenters Agreement to the Commonwealth of the Philippines in 1915 decades. This was marked as the end of the sultanate. When Philippines gained independence, it does not warrant the release of Sulu as another entity, and when the Federation of Malaysia was created in 1963, the former region of the sultanate in the Philippines weren't given the option to join the Islamic federation.
- In 1974 Philippine President signed Memo Order 427, under what Raja Muda's father was crowned as Sultan of Sulu and he was crowned as Raja Muda, that makes him legitimate successor to throne!!!! or you are trying to ignore ex Presidents order???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by RDAndrew (talk • contribs)
- Well, we need to have a copy of it, per verifiability rule of Wikipedia. Though the former President Marcos gave homage and respect to the surviving members of the Kiram house that does not mean that the country allows the existence of Sulu as an independent state. 'Please visit the website, the certified copy is there, and that why I use it as reference, then I think in 1962 also other Philippine President gave homage and respect to Raja Muda's grandfather Sultan Esmail Kiram?????' From 1915 Sultan of Sulu is spiritual leader of the Muslim people, and he's office is Office of the Sultan of Sulu!!! And Royal House of Sulu is under his headship, I have never said that Sulu is independent state!!!! Please e-mail me: chancellor@estonian-monarchist.org.uk and I am happy to answer your questions!
--— JL 09 talkcontribs 13:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
That is the reason why Sulu is still under Philippine government. Please stop doing a make-believe that the sultanate is a separate entity. Plus, the more acceptable flag for the Sulu Sultanate is the violet one. The one you are adding to the page is a personal flag of Raja Muda Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram of Sulu.
- This is not personal flag, this is flag of Royal Sultanate of Sulu under Raja Muda! Raja Muda has got is own flag, well you will see, as Burkes Peerage has accepted to add Sulu Royal Order of Pearl to the list! — Preceding unsigned comment added by RDAndrew (talk • contribs)
Why? When Sulu started in 1450s, they used the white flag having symbols relating to the arch upon entering Kaaba in Mecca. After some marriages with Brunei and expansion overseas, they changed to the violet one. It's clear. Upon the end of sovereignty of the sultanate in 1915, they are using the violet flag. Raja Muda Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram of Sulu's flag that you keep on adding was created perhaps when he started to claim the throne as pretender and that's late 80s. So you couldn't justify that that one is really the flag of Sulu.
Please respond to this ASAP.--— JL 09 talkcontribs 13:18, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
P.S. I advise you to be open-minded and read history books online and in print about the Islamic history of Mindanao and that of the northern Borneo areas that were once under Sulu sultanate. You should probably "get in touch" with what I am talking about why Sulu sovereignty is in question and that there are many people claiming the throne. Apart from Raja Muda Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram of Sulu, there are many pretenders to the throne: including Jamalul Kiram III (yes the one who ran in 2007 senatorial elections), and the other guy who used to own a "Sulu sultanate" website that was just shut down around 2008. The third one I am talking about really claimed that Sulu has sovereignty and even signed pacts with other countries, well, those "countries" that are also not recognized by a large body of nations like Ossetia, Abkhazia, etc.
Not just relying on the website you are trying to say. Just be open-minded and learn how to verify facts. Websites can be manipulated by a number of people who wanted to push something for some agenda, while prints are needed to be researched and are reviewed by reliable researchers and academic scholars around the world.--— JL 09 talkcontribs 13:18, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Redirect
You reverted the previous content of Raja Muda Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram prior to it being redirected to Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram of Sulu without stating the reason. I reverted your edits. If you believe that "Raja Muda ..." is the correct title, please discuss it at the talk page of Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram of Sulu, and request for an admin-assisted move. Don't simply copy-paste the old content to replace the redirect link. The page needs to keep its history to be consistent with the GFDL.
And another thing, please refrain from using bold characters during discussions, some might think that you are being uncivil. Also do not forget to sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). Moray An Par (talk) 09:30, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
I reverted your edits. Do not use Wikipedia as a source just as JL 09 has stated. There is no need to put an "Introduction" header for the lead. And please do not revert edits of other people without stating your reasons/discussing it. Please do consider using the talk page of the article. Moray An Par (talk) 09:30, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
- I reverted it again. We need to get more people involved in this. I invite you to join WT:Tambayan Philippines#Sulu Sultanate. Fresh opinions and eyes might be the one that can resolve this. Moray An Par (talk) 00:46, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
I created this page, so why other people wont discuss it first and then move? Does not make sense
- Please. How many times do I have to tell you to sign your comments? It's standard etiquette here. As for the move, I do have to agree that JL 09 didn't consult you or the community first before moving. Well, what's done is done. All you can do for now is request for a move. Don't worry. You may continue editing under the new title for now. It'll be moved as soon as an administrator determines that a consensus for the move has been reached. Moray An Par (talk) 08:36, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello. I reverted it again. Please do listen. The page history is essential to the article. And that history is in the new title. Do not restore the content of the old title without the discussion regarding it being done yet. You may be blocked from editing if your persist. Moray An Par (talk) 08:41, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Do you want me to request the move in your behalf? Moray An Par (talk) 08:41, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
MAYBE I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH WIKIPEDIA, BUT I KNOW ONE THING, MUEDZUL LAIL TAN KIRAM IS THE APPOINTED RAJA MUDA OF SULU FROM 1974 BY PRESIDENT MARCOS, I ASK YOU AGAIN TO VISIT WWW.ROYALSULTANATEOFSULU.ORG AND LOOK INTO RAJA MUDA SECTION, WHERE YOU CAN FIND THE CERTIFIED COPY OF 1974 APPOINTMENT!
- Philippine history does not interest me. I am just here to help resolve the conflict. Please do remain WP:civil. Unless you provide evidence that File:Suluflag.jpg is the flag of Sulu, do not revert JL 09's edits. I will revert your edits on the Sultanate of Sulu article. Please refrain from reverting other editors' contribution until discussion is over. If you want to expedite it, please participate in the discussion instead of simply causing disruption here. The discussion is at WT:Tambayan Philippines. Moray An Par (talk) 02:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
Sultanate of Sulu
Any reasons for reverting? Moray An Par (talk) 08:17, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Sultanate of Sulu. Users are expected to collaborate with others and avoid editing disruptively.
In particular, the three-revert rule states that:
- Making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period is almost always grounds for an immediate block.
- Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you continue to edit war, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Moray An Par (talk) 08:19, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed content from Talk:Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram. When removing content, please specify a reason in the edit summary and discuss edits that are likely to be controversial on the article's talk page. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the content has been restored, as you can see from the page history. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia, and if you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Moray An Par (talk) 03:46, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I do possess all the rights to publish this image or pictures by the copyright law!!!! Before moving please get in touch with me and I shall provide evidence!(User talk:RDAndrew)28 May 2011
- By what section of the Philippine copyright law, exactly, provides you "all the rights to publish this image"? Please do present your evidence at commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Rajamuda.jpg. This copy of the copyright law will be helpful. Moray An Par (talk) 09:21, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
This picture belongs to Raja Muda Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram as it was taken by his family member in 1974. Raja Muda has got the copyright and he has given me the permission to use this image! I think it should be enough to explain, after this image will be removed I have another images (more than 100), so I will replace it easily! Thank you for your attention
Prior to 1 August 1989 though, the copyright in photographs, portraits and engravings (and only those types of work) which were created as a result of a commission were owned by the commissioner and NOT the creator. Therefore at that time, if you commissioned someone to take photographs for you for instance of your wedding party, then you would be the owner of the copyright in those photographs. The commission though must have been undertaken for money or money’s worth that is equivalent goods or services.
- Since you claim to have been given permission to publish the photo, can you give us a copy of this email (assuming that it was through email) or scan of the document? Moray An Par (talk) 10:32, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Yes of course, please do send me e-mail to chancellor@estonian-monarchist.org.uk and I will send you scan of the document
- For transparency's sake, it must be viewable to everyone, and not only to me. You can post it here. Again, please sign your comments. Put four tildes (~~~~) after your comments. Moray An Par (talk) 14:12, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
By the way I have added copies of the original certified documents on the Raja Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram WP profile RD Andres 15.15, 29 May 2011 UK time(~~~~)
- PS. What I meant by four tildes is literally four tildes (without the nowiki markup and the parentheses). Moray An Par (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Ha, ha as I am saying I am not very common with WP RDAndrew (talk) 14:20, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I will attach more supporting documents including my copyrights on Wednesday 1st of June 2011 as then I have more time to deal with it, please try to understand why I am doing it, it is not about confusing people it is revealing the truth and please do not try to delete/change any information without discussing it first!!! RDAndrew (talk) 14:48, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- No problem. It won't get deleted as long as it can be proven that you have the rights to release it. Welcome to Wikipedia. Moray An Par (talk) 15:01, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Hello. Since you keep on restoring the content at the Rajah Muda ..., I will request a move in your behalf. See the Muedzul talk page. Moray An Par (talk) 15:07, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
July 2011
Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, but when you add or change content, as you did to the article Royal House of Sulu, please cite a reliable source for your addition. This helps maintain our policy of verifiability. See Wikipedia:Citing sources for how to cite sources, and the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Yopie (talk) 21:11, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Dear Yopie, thank you and I shall add more links within weekRDAndrew (talk) 21:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
I have added some certified copies of the original documents, so please remove your adds!RDAndrew (talk) 21:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of published material to articles as you apparently did to Royal House of Sulu. Please cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. Thank you. Yopie (talk) 20:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the integration of a note on the Sultanate of Sulu in a Sub-article Datu
I have already intedgrated your legitimate suggestions. Please take note that I have highlighted the title Raja Mudah. But it seems that there is no wikipedia article about this. Would you be kind to create it. I think you are more competent in doing it. Please also take note of the Philippine legal provisions in that article, and also in related articles about honorary titles. There are objections to some honory titles given to non-tribe members and to foreigners, also in view of the provisions of the Constitution, as well as regarding the sentiments of local nobles and tribe members. Filipinos are sensitive to some insinuations that foreigners are accorded higher status over them, in their own native land, especially that their own Constitution prohibits them to receive or confer new nobiliary titles. I know you are aware of the colonial experience, and struggles of the Filipinos for independence and for equal status with foreign colonizers.--TLS MMM (talk) 13:43, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Philippine WikiCon
You are invited to the 3rd Philippine Wiki Conference (WikiCon) on May 26, 2012 9am-1pm at the co.lab.exchange in Pasig City. Please fill this form should you signify interest. --Exec8 (talk) 17:45, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Sultanate of Sulu
Please note that the centralized discussion on User:XavierGreen's proposal to list the Sultanate of Sulu as "extant" is taking place at here. TDL (talk) 20:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I understand that Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram is the son of a Marcos-supported legitimate Sulu Sultan. Nonetheless, it is not right to remove the names of the other pretenders of the Sultanate. You can place his name on the wiki page but please do not remove the other claimants, no matter how "illegitimate" their claim may be. Trust me, it's notable (talk) 10:49, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes I agree but I should not be the only one who will discuss any changes here, as people are changing things around as they wish to think it is better. To be frank then Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram is not only son but also a Raja Muda of Sultan Moh. Mahakuttah, who was himself Raja Muda of Sultan Esmail E. Kiram. Also Sultan Muedzul Lail Tan Kirams grand father was SUltan of Sulu etc. There is clear line of succession. Where is the proof, any document that any other pretender are Sultans of Sulu? They have none RDAndrew (talk) 12:55, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
- Please see Talk:Sultanate of Sulu#Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram Brian Z (talk) 06:47, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
List of sultans of Sulu
I undid your edit here as per WP:REDFLAG and WP:PRIMARY. Please do not revert the edits until you have discussed your views at the article's Talk page.
As per my reliable, secondary source, it says, The last sultan recognized by the Philippine government in 1974 was Ismael Kiram I. After his death, the government, along with other foreign states, declined to recognize the succeeding sultans even if they still commanded authority among the locals there, but in deference to their being royals, they were consulted on some issues hounding Sulu. (emphasis mine)
It is discouraged to synthesize an editor's views with a primary source, without a reliable, secondary source assenting the same. In this case, we cannot just base the whole Who was the last Sultan recognized by the Philippine government issue by just looking at the chart, which is not an official position of the Philippine government (their words not mine) by the way, and drawing conclusions upon it. Besides, it is not explicitly said there which sultan was the last one that was officially recognized.
One of the thresholds of Wikipedia is the policy regarding verifiability. When editing, even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. In this case, if you believe that Mahakuttah A. Kiram was the last officially recognized sultan by the Philippines, please add a reliable source that clearly says so. Xeltran (talk) 19:50, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
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