User talk:Mato4w

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Your submission at Articles for creation: Nimble Commander (February 11)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Qcne was:

This submission appears to read more like an advertisement than an entry in an encyclopedia. Encyclopedia articles need to be written from a neutral point of view, and should refer to a range of independent, reliable, published sources, not just to materials produced by the creator of the subject being discussed. This is important so that the article can meet Wikipedia's verifiability policy and the notability of the subject can be established. If you still feel that this subject is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, please rewrite your submission to comply with these policies.

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Nimble Commander and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Qcne (talk) 15:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Ouch, that was a quick decline of my first draft article on Nimble Commander. I'm a happy user of the app and I kept the draft to be minimal and designed it based on some other such articles I found on Wikipedia. I wonder why you declined my article -- can you be as much specific as possible, please? I provided links to the app's website, I've no idea what other "independent" links I could provide. I did not boast the app at all so why decline, please? It feels harsh and considering it took me maybe two hours to create the draft properly it's not really a nice first time experience. mato (talk) 15:45, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Mato4w, frustratingly I don't get pinged when people reply to these auto-generated messages. I see you have also made a topic in the AFC Help Desk.

I can imagine it's really frustrating to get an article decline so quickly after submitting, and I can believe you when you said that it took hours to make as the Wikipedia interface is pretty difficult to learn.

I declined it as an "advert" because it only linked to WP:PRIMARY sources. For an article to be deemed acceptable we need to see significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Do you have any reviews of the software in tech magazines for example? Software can be hard to write articles for as there usually *isn't* many independent reliable sources. Check out the essay at WP:NSOFTWARE for more guidance.

I noticed you said that you based the draft on existing articles: unfortunately Wikipedia has many tens of thousands of terrible quality articles that no one has gotten around to improving or would not have been accepted today. Our standards have tightened over the years as Wikipedia is now regularly bombarded with bad actors trying to use the site to promote their company, brand, etc. The only way to keep the site getting overwhelmed with spam is to have these fairly strict notability policies.

I would genuinely encourage you to hang around the site more, maybe get some practice in editing (check out SPECIAL:HOMEPAGE for tips). If you want to re-submit the draft for review if you can find those independent, reliable, secondary sources then let me know.

WP:PING me if you have any more questions. Qcne (talk) 20:10, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. It seems that your idea what Wikipedia is useful for and mine are rather different. I like that I can quickly find here information that would take significantly longer for me to search and discover out there on the internets. A lot of information is already lost as websites disappear. Even stub articles are better than nothing. My example Total Commander is famous and it would be very sad if it wasn't on Wikipedia for many users to find. Yet it does not meet criteria one of your colleagues suggested in the AFC. Perhaps you should remove it. I'm joking, of course.

Someone else even removed the one row I added to the table of file managers in another article. Why oh why? What the hell is promotional about that? The whole table is full of basic data about existing or past file managers. Why would you deny me to add one you obviously do not have there? Are you promoting those that already made a cut? Is Wikipedia a living breathing thing or a thing of past that a few chosen ones rule?

What independent reliable sources you want me to provide? I can remove Features section or the 2nd sentence if that's what you don't like. But seriously those are features that one can expect in a file manager. I nowhere said it's the best app on Earth. Why can't we have a short factual article about a useful application? What's the point of Wikipedia? I cannot see it now. I don't care about article on e.g. Microsoft Windows, I can find plenty of those anywhere on the internet.

I don't intend to stick around. I'm not native English speaker. I didn't find what happened today neither welcoming nor pleasant and promising. I'm not in any way affiliated with the app I wrote about. Other users will have to find about it elsewhere. That would just make more users aware how little useful Wikipedia is. I tried to improve it but you don't want me. Well, good luck with your vision, I'm clearly not part of it and I don't find it that useful for what I look for. Thanks for your reply, anyway. mato (talk) 20:42, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry this has been a frustrating experience for you. Please know that everyone here is volunteering. We work hard to keep the site free from spam, wrong edits, and unwanted advertisements. No one is against you personally.

When it comes to adding a file manager to a list in another article, our rule is that we only include links to existing Wikipedia articles in these lists. If you added an item that doesn't have its own Wikipedia article, removing it was the correct action. Since your contribution was still a draft and not an official article, it couldn't be included in the list. This rule would have been unknown to you.

Wikipedia's community, which includes thousands of editors decided over decades, agrees that only topics important enough by our standards deserve an article. There's a detailed list of what makes a topic notable at WP:NOTABLE. Wikipedia aims to be a source that summarizes well-known subjects (as a tertiary source), that's all. Not a business directory, or indiscriminate list of information, etc.

For your draft, I'm not saying you should delete any information. Instead, you need to find and add at least three trustworthy secondary sources that talk about the file manager. It's your responsibility to look for these sources. However, if you find some and want me to check them before adding, you can share them here. Qcne (talk) 20:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a terrible rule, I'm afraid. Why would you not allow a table row for something that has no its own article? I never thought Wikipedia is supposed to work like this. I thought articles exist for stuff that someone cared to write about. But if you have a list of some items somewhere I'd expect to find there any that are relevant. And Nimble Commander surely is relevant. There are not that many file managers for macOS and even less good ones and maintained for that long.

Well, apart from its own website, which is rather nice, Nimble Commander has Forums, that I also linked to, where you can see discussions going years back. Also a quick search returns the following relevant articles (among others):

https://macdownload.informer.com/nimble-commander/

https://slashdot.org/software/p/Nimble-Commander/

https://www.ghisler.com/fixed_download.htm

https://mac.softpedia.com/get/Utilities/Files.shtml

https://www.applefritter.com/content/comparing-macos-file-managers-remote-server-access

https://updf.com/mac/file-manager-mac/

https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/48980/nimble-commander-pro

https://sourceforge.net/software/product/Nimble-Commander/

https://www.slant.co/options/40825/~nimble-commander-pro-review

https://download.cnet.com/nimble-commander/3000-2248_4-75915244.html

https://nmac.to/nimble-commander-pro/

And it's also on the Apple's App Store, GitHub and Homebrew:

https://apps.apple.com/us/developer/michael-kazakov/id905202940

https://github.com/mikekazakov/nimble-commander

https://formulae.brew.sh/cask/nimble-commander

Quite relevant, don't you think? mato (talk) 21:34, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry you feel it is a terrible rule- you might be better off at a different website that is more flexible? Wikipedia has worked this way for decades and perhaps it is you who were misinformed.

Some of those sources work. Try adding them to the draft and re-submitting. I will recuse myself from re-reviewing the draft if you do so, as I think an uninvolved reviewer should take a second look.

I will note that Forums can not be used as a source as they are WP:USERGENERATED.

Thanks, Qcne (talk) 21:56, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How should I know which ones would work? And where to add them, please? As I understand it references are added to a piece of information. E.g. I added a reference to What's new page next to the app's version info in the info box. But I don't want to write a review, I'd prefer the article to stay brief as it is. So where should I place those references and which ones, please? mato (talk) 22:49, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I edited the draft based on your suggestions and submitted it for review. Thanks. mato (talk) 23:37, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may wish to consider editing the Wikipedia of your native language. Each Wikipedia is separate, with their own editors and policies. What is unacceptable here may be accepted there. 331dot (talk) 21:03, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Mato4w! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Qcne (talk) 15:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

License tagging for File:Screenshot of program Nimble Commander.png

Thanks for uploading File:Screenshot of program Nimble Commander.png. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Wikipedia uses a set of image copyright tags to indicate this information.

To add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from this list, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Wikipedia. For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 16:30, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

License tagging for File:Nimble Commander Logo.png

Thanks for uploading File:Nimble Commander Logo.png. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Wikipedia uses a set of image copyright tags to indicate this information.

To add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from this list, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Wikipedia. For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 16:31, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New message from 331dot

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk. 331dot (talk) 17:29, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your submission at Articles for creation: Nimble Commander (March 28)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by BuySomeApples was:

This submission's references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article—that is, they do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject (see the guidelines on the notability of websites). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see technical help and learn about mistakes to avoid when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.