User talk:JzG/Archive 201

Well, here we are

What happened on Wednesday was what I feared. I stepped back from Wikipedia because I did not feel able to man the barricades during what I confidently expected to be a period of mass insanity. I would have been much happier to be wrong about that. I salute, and apologise to, those dedicated Wikipedians who were less cowardly than me.

What I have said for years, at WP:RSN especially, about the toxicity of the right wing media bubble is now, I would suggest, difficult to honestly dispute at any meaningful level. Positive feedback loops are inherently unstable, and a media that rewards ideological purity over factual accuracy delivers precisely the results we saw on Wednesday. You cannot analyse this situation and not place blame on Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and the rest. Four years of gaslighting the country about Mueller, Ukraine and the rest, led to consequences that were not so much foreseeable as inevitable. I was accused of "Trump derangement syndrome" for accepting the documented facts about Russian interference in 2016. Even I did not predict that it would end up this bad - and if you had, you'd have been denounced by supposedly serious conservative editors as an insane left-wing conspiracist hack.

I do not think Trump planned a coup. I think it's at least evens that he genuinely believes he won by a landslide and cannot understand that attendance at his rallies and the lies he sees on Fox and OANN are not reflective of reality. My gut feel is that he wanted the faithful to go to the Capitol to get "his people" to rally round and "fix" an "error". And that happened because the Republican Party has entirely failed to stand up to his increasingly delusional behaviour for nearly five years. Trump ruthlessly excludes voices that contradict his internal narrative, and the party chose to accept that. In 2019, Trump leaned on a foreign ally to try to support conspiracist disinformation for his advantage in an upcoming election. They chose a show trial where they refused even to hear witnesses. Adam Schiff said that if he was not stopped, he would try it again. He was not stopped. He tried it again. Trump is who he is, the failure here is in those who pretended that what he said and did was in good faith.

Congressional Republicans are already stepping round the broken furniture, ignoring the smoke and shattered glass, and carrying on as if nothing happened. They are circling the wagons and pushing back on impeachment or removal. People who voted to remove Bill Clinton over a blowjob, refused and continue to refuse to countenance removing Donald Trump.

My view? If Wednesday was not over the line, then there is no line.

In the last couple of weeks the Republican Party basically smeared faeces on the walls and then stood up and said, with a straight face, "lots of people say they can smell shit, we should look into this". I have read many - probably most - of the filings, statements, motions and findings in the 60 or so election lawsuits, and it is abundantly clear that the claims of fraud were not just meritless, but well known to be meritless by those who made and amplified them. The Republican Party chose to go down a path they believed would serve their long-term agenda of voter suppression. Georgia is already talking about giving politicians more power over their elections. Oh the irony. Brian Kemp, as Secretary of State, manipulated his own wafer-thin victory over Stacey Abrams, and now they think the Secretary of State is way too fair to those there niDemocrats.

Republican Congresspeople spouted QAnon bullshit in their races, on TV and social media, and then, when they were elected despite that obvious insanity, in the House. In many cases one might legitimately question whether they actually know it's bullshit: Q believers are in the grip of madness. No such excuse exists in the case of Senators like Ted Cruz, who, for all his faults, is a highly intelligent man with a solid understanding of the law and the constitution. The precipitating event on Wednesday was a bunch of Senate bomb-throwers advancing claims they know to be meritless, and knew to be futile for that very reason, and most commentators seem to think this was done in order to jockey for position in the 2024 Republican nomination. And you know they are fully aware it was a bullshit stunt, because after the invasion of the Capitol, they stopped. Whatever their motives, it was a stunt, they knew it was a stunt, and it resulted in a mob armed with guns, bombs and wrist restraints besieging the nation's Capitol and reportedly calling for the execution of Mike Pence on a gallows they had erected outside.

Mike. Pence.

This was a serious attempt to overthrow an election, fortunately mounted by mainly unserious people. America dodged a bullet. Wikipedia played a part, by remaining trustworthy, but unfortunately clowns like TDA have spread enough lies that the nutjobs won't believe us. Some think the solution to the lack of trust by people who live in a parallel universe of alternative facts, is to pander more to the right wing. My answer to that, you can probably guess.

So. I'll be back maybe soon, but in the mean time my undying thanks go to those who have maintained Wikipedia as a reliable source on this insanity, especially those maintaining the post-election lawsuit pages. I have been able to link Wikipedia pages in discussions without ever worrying that they would reflect election "truther" insanity. I am sorry I was not on the barricades when the shit hit the fan. I have PTSD, it was too much for me. Guy (help! - typo?) 15:39, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• Aside: if you are in any doubt on the underlying merits of the election suits (and I am sure you're not, because competence is required), I urge you to review the difference between Aguilera v. Fontes (Maricopa County superior court CV2020-014562), a sane post-election suit with proportionate remedies, allowing a few people to cure potentially defective ballots, unsuccessful in the end on the basis that, as the judge said, nothing is perfect, including elections; and the utter insanity of the Kraken and Trump suits, seeking to throw out the entire Presidential (but not Senate, House or State) ballot for a whole State based on disagreements with election processes that, in some cases, were introduced by Republicans and used in multiple previous elections without challenge. The narrative has it that reasonable measures taken to allow people to vote during the deadliest pandemic in a century, were unconstitutional, but only in swing states, and only on the Presidential ballot, and only in cities, for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that cities are where most of the non-white and non-Republican people in those states happen to be. And those are the stupid-but-not-insane claims. Don't get me started on Sidney Powell's conspiracy theories and so called "expert witnesses". The claims advanced by Lin Wood, Sidney Powell, amplified by Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump, and argued in Congress as grounds for ignoring the certified results from multiple states, are summed up extremely well in this motion for sanctions. It's bullshit. They probably knew it was bullshit. The Senators absolutely did know it was bullshit. They promoted it anyway, almost certainly out of naked personal political ambition. And so people died and the Capitol was desecrated, and the dumbest coup attempt in American history came way closer than it should have done to succeeding. Guy (help! - typo?) 15:39, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Melania should leave the donald, and marry me. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 15:57, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you Guy except that I think Trump knew what he was doing but not the full extent of what that meant. Because he has never had to live in the world most people do; he has never had to be responsible for his mistakes. He doesn't think the laws and rules apply to him and because he can't think beyond himself he couldn't see that what was coming was potentially terrible. But when it did he was happy about it. Roxy, you might consider marrying outside the Trump family or its adjacent peoples. Littleolive oil (talk) 19:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Littleolive oil, I agree. Guy (help! - typo?) 09:27, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Remember when I argued that Team Red and Team Blue both produced lousy presidents, equally bad but bad in different ways? Can we just pretend that I never made that argument and not speak of this again? I was expecting overspending and using the constitution as toilet paper like we saw with the last dozen or two presidents. I wasn't expecting a Beer Hall Putsch. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:50, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Yep - it's an established pattern in American politics, and of course, highly subjective. Isn't fighting for what one believes how the US became a Republic and not a mobocracy; the very reason the Forefathers fought their way out from under British rule in order to build a country that so many see as the last and greatest bastion of freedom? Isn't that sort of what's happening in Hong Kong now - their fight for autonomy and complete separation from communist China? Perhaps earlier generations of Americans learned things in civics class that has not been taught for a few decades now as it was dropped from the curriculum...which brings to mind an email one simply cannot ignore, specifically the Bill Ivey email to John Podesta during the Clinton campaign wherein Ivey wrote, And as I've mentioned, we've all been quite content to demean government, drop civics and in general conspire to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry. The unawareness remains strong but compliance is obviously fading rapidly. This problem demands some serious, serious thinking - and not just poll driven, demographically-inspired messaging. Hmmm, well, based on current events, I foresee a high level of vehemence in future I told you sos but we can always hope for the best, and at least do our best to remain neutral for the sake of this project. I am truly enjoying life on Bonaire because it is void of all that nasty political angst and rhetoric. We already know that people will naturally vote for whatever they believe will provide them free services, especially lower income earners who pay little to no taxes. Common sense tells us there is no such thing as a free lunch. Underachievers and even some of the highest achievers fail to recognize that government is funded in big part by the working class. Let the government pay for it!! is not just about the mega rich who now control 90% of today's media, including the propaganda we've been reading on a global scale. Unfortunately, higher taxes only enslaves people to government, and it is not the cure. It amazes me how some WP editors say they hate bureaucracy, dictators, the rich, etc. yet they're inadvertently supporting it, simply by the way things operate. Again...it's all subjective, but food for thought, and it's good to know both sides of the argument, regardless of whether or not there's agreement. Just trying to inject a slightly different perspective. Happy editing! Atsme 💬 📧 11:15, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Comparing the Founders' efforts to create a representative democracy to the actions of a violent mob intent on overthrowing a democratically elected President and kidnapping or murdering elected representatives shows a depth of moral and intellectual bankruptcy that would have been shocking if not for the experience of the past 4 years. The comparison to Hong Kong is likewise almost farcically ignorant: in Hong Kong, people are protesting for the right to representation, whereas the neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and assorted right-wing extremists who stormed the Capitol are protesting against the democratic transfer of power. Even now, you can't help yourself from posting right-wing disinformation and Clinton conspiracism. Even now.

One good thing about this period is that it's allowed us to see who people really are, with their masks off. No one has an excuse anymore for not knowing what you stand for. MastCell ^Talk 16:28, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

MastCell, you don't participate very often anymore, but least we know we can count on you to toss out some vile insults and issue warnings, blocks and bans against your ideological opponents.--MONGO (talk) 01:03, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

MastCell, I agree with MONGO about that personal attack being beyond the pale. I don't care that you're an admin, if you say anything like that again to another person, I will block you for violating the project's policy on personal attacks. Atsme, I don't usually involve myself in these sort of political discussion, but I found your observation that people will naturally vote for whatever they believe will provide them free services to be especially poignant. Have you ever read Matt Taibbi's "The Truth About the Tea Party"? It's really, really good, and speaks to that with great flair and urgency. Highly recommended to all participants: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/the-truth-about-the-tea-party-188228 El_C 02:04, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@El C: So are you disagreeing that what Atsme said was "comparing the Founders' efforts to create a representative democracy to the actions of a violent mob intent on overthrowing a democratically elected President and kidnapping or murdering elected representatives"? Because it was. Or are you disagreeing that making that comparison was evidence of moral and intellectual bankruptcy? Because it is. Or are you disagreeing that Atsme was "posting right-wing disinformation and Clinton conspiracism"? Because she was. Or do you agree with those statements, but think the real problem here is that someone actually said it out loud? Are you still under the impression that if we are just inordinately nice to them, all the troublesome people will quietly fade away? No, I'd say the real problem is Atsme hasn't had her AmPol topic ban reinstated, so she's free to say all sorts of horrible things (but usually with little smiley emojis, so we're expected to like it, or think it's cute, or threaten the person who calls her out on it). Please block me instead; I don't have the rhetorical skills necessary to say what needs to be said to apologists who shouldn't be editing a fact-based encyclopedia - I just get really pissed off and start using curse words - so I'm less important to the project than MastCell is. Jesus fucking Christ. --Floquenbeam (talk) 04:23, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Look, Floquenbeam, I realize nerves are frayed right now, but please try to keep it together. I don't think insults need to be hurled to make one's point extra-emphatic or whatever. If you wish to see Atsme banned from AP2 (broadly construed, including any discussion whatsoever), there are different avenues in which you can pursue that. You can seek review at AN or ANI by the community; or have a quorum of uninvolved admins review it at AE; or even ask the Arbitration Committee to look into it directly. It's surprising to me that you view myself as being out of step when I try to maintain, not just decorum, but basic civility and avoiding outright personal attacks. More gasoline on the fire right now, here on the project, is the wrong call, I challenge. There are procedures in place to do what you wish to see done, and I would hope such an effort to be conducted as dispassionately as humanly possible. But neither insults nor emotional outbursts are going to help much here, even if I understand their impetus. El_C 04:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Flo, I cannot speak on behalf of Atsme of course nor am I great at deciphering what others are trying to say when they go off on tangents. However, my reading of her comments and links provided do not to me indicate an effort to be an apologist for the actions of those lunatics that stormed the US Capitol last week. At least, I don't think she is being an apologist. The implications of just how easily a band of miscreants and rioters were able to overtake the Capitol Police and get into the places they did, causing the members of the HOR and Senate to be evacuated, especially in this post 9/11 world, is just downright scary. It would be a shame to severely restrict public access at the "people's house" here forward, but if that isn't the plan, then whoever makes such decisions needs to be replaced. I was also surprised at the persons who would participate in such actions, a retired Lt Col, off duty police, recently resigned army captain, elected officials from state legislatures, even possibly on duty Capitol Police. Are these people truly misguided loons that have all been brainwashed by Qanon conspiracy theories, or what exactly? Are they far right bigots? neonazis? As someone who is right of center, I confess that I am ashamed that it appears all these rioters might consider themselves right wing. I mean, one would suspect based on past achievements that some of these persons had at least at one point held respectable jobs, so I am amiss as to explain all this. One would think they all suffered from some kind of mental breakdown? I suspect most carry cell phones on them...surely they must know that even if they turn their GPS off on their phones, the cell still can pinpoint them at a given time to within two square meters...making it impossible for them to deny their location. Why did some Capitol Police seem to just stand by while these wackos streamed in, most walking in casually...(yes, there was no shortage of forced entry as well of course). Just not sure what we are seeing here with this.--MONGO (talk) 05:44, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

MONGO, you make a good point. The mechanism for banning users from AP2 or whatever is well established and known to all.

As far as I'm concerned, the people we need to ban right now are those who continue to argue that the election was fraudulent. That opinion is not defensible based on the established body of fact. I don't see any evidence that Atsme falls into that category.

I don't know yet how I feel about the kind of people who equate BLM with the insurrection, or a Chairman Mao T-shirt with a 6MWE shirt. Actually, I do know, but I don't know in Wikipedia terms.

Where Atsme is wrong, IMO, is in apparently mistaking the metaphorical "fighting"for what we believe in, with literally going armed to the Capitol with the intention of overthrowing an election because the majority voted for the "wrong" candidate.

Reasonable people can differ on the influence of plutocrats, but nobody by now should be in any doubt that the self-reinforcing ideological loyalism of the right wing media is a cause, and not a symptom. Fox is making staffing changes in response to loss of share to NewsMax. That's not a good sign. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:25, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

This misinformation has to stop here and now. I am deeply saddened by the attacks and hurtful words about me by MastCell and Flo, but I'm not the one with the problem. Yes, it brought this adult woman to tears, it hurt that deeply because it was so untrue and unjust but typical of the way MastCell has treated me over the past few years. His PAs have been relentless - I have all the diffs - and worse yet, his behavior is not isolated to me but I won't name names and drag those editors into this very nasty discussion. Unfortunately, Flo has since jumped into the fray only to side with MastCell, so now we have 2 administrators attempting to assassinate my character, absolutely violating WMF's behaviorial guidelines which makes this a T&S issue, and all of it based on a wrong assumption and preconceived notions. Worse yet, Flo is attacking MONGO & El C both of whom rightfully defended me, and is trying to convince them that I did something wrong. The bullying continues. It has to STOP!!

Before you make another false allegation against me, Floquenbeam - you need to explain what you said above: 'posting right-wing disinformation and Clinton conspiracism'"? Show me where I did that - I want the link - quote me.

I linked to a NYTimes opinion piece by Derek Muller, a law professor at the U of I who specializes in election law. I never mentioned the breach of the WH. This whole mess was caused by MastCell's spreading of misinformation, and now Flo is carrying the baton. MastCell actually had the audacity to say that my simple observations about established patterns in US politcs "shows a depth of moral and intellectual bankruptcy that would have been shocking if not for the experience of the past 4 years. The comparison to Hong Kong is likewise almost farcically ignorant...". His words are loathesome, deeply hurtful, and an embarrassment to this entire project. I never mentioned the riots, or spoke to any specific event. In fact, what's happening to me now reminds me a little of Bari Weiss' resignation from the NYTimes, and Sullivan's response to what happened. He tweeted: “The mob bullied and harassed a young woman for thoughtcrimes. And her editors stood by and watched.” I'm excluding my colleagues MONGO and El C who stood up to the bullying in my defense, and I am very grateful for them standing up for what's right.

"Comparing the Founders' efforts to create a representative democracy to the actions of a violent mob intent on overthrowing a democratically elected President and kidnapping or murdering elected representatives..." - again, nowhere did I compare the latest breach of the WH to anything. WP:CIR, is it not? Do I really have to explain the obvious when discussing anarchy, rioting, violence and the founding of the United States, which was born of anarchy? Who here believes that our Founding Fathers protested peacefully? It now makes me wonder what MastCell & Flo thought about the Oakland riots, the shooting of House Minority Whip Steve Salise, the 2017 Inauguration Day protests, Madonna wanting to blow-up the WH, Kathy Griffin holding the severed head of a duly elected president, Johnny Depp talking about assassinating him, Maxine Waters enticing her followers that if they see cabinet members to "push back on them and tell them they're not welcome", and the BLM's protest at the Capitol. Do Black lives suddenly not matter when they're protesting at the WH because of perceived fraudulent voting? Are you condemning them, too? How about the 4 years of violent protests, the burning down of businesses, the rioting and destruction of property, and so on because one political party was pissed-off that their candidate didn't win, or they are pissed-off at government for whatever reason, valid or otherwise? I'm living on Bonaire far away from that shit, and I'm quite happy, at least I was until I read the egregious PAs by MastCell and Flo. I never condoned political extremism in my life. Why are you bullying me and other editors you're prejudiced against? You don't have a clue as to what I stand for or what I believe, much less who I am as a person, and this has grown into a case that may require the attention of WMF T&S. That's what I'm thinking right now because I'm done crying over your misstatements/misinterpretations/misconceptions and aspersions because I don't parrot your POV. Atsme 💬 📧 13:23, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Atsme, I'm certainly not attacking you, but if you think there's any parallel at all between Kathy Griffin's protected speech and an armed mob with a gallows, tactical gear, weapons, pipe bombs and flexicuffs, invading the Capitol to find and - in their own words - kill Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi in order to overturn the results of an election they have been told would mean the "end of America" - which makes little sense unless interpreted as white supremacism - then I think you have an uphill battle on your hands. Guy (help! - typo?) 14:51, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, once again everyone is talking past each other. Maybe there is no way to properly communicate this matter. My take is Atsme is trying to convey that public figures such as Trump and on the other hand Waters, etc. influence actions, and that when Waters and Madonna and or Trump and such public figures say blow up the WH or get in their faces or march to the Capitol, we end up with what happened last week and what has been happening for years now. It is not really possible to say that what happened last week was NOT the absolute worst thing so far, but there have been many very bad things in the past few years and in 2020 to now especially...like blocking doors at an occupied police station with quick dry concrete and rebar while setting fire to it as well, knowing police are stationed inside the building.[1] My biggest fear is these events seem to be worsening on both sides.--MONGO (talk) 15:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

MONGO, we'll have to agree to disagree re last Wednesday. The sheer incompetence of its execution cannot obscure the fact that this was a genuine and sincere attempt to overturn an election, and effectively destroy the republic. Guy (help! - typo?) 16:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here. Although you (Atsme) keep emphasizing that I'm an admin for some reason, you are the one with an admin protector who has threatened to block anyone who criticizes your bad faith debating techniques. You are responding, in a thread that is about the Capitol insurgents, with a couple of sentences about the founders fighting for what they believe and the Hong Kong protesters. Yet you now pretend that you didn't intend to link those with the insurgents, and I'm supposed to swallow that and pretend I believe it is possible, because it is a personal attack to do otherwise. No, it is not possible that you didn't intend to equate them. You are not telling the truth. It would make zero sense to bring them up at all if you weren't trying to equate them. You mention a well-worn context-less excerpt from the Podesta email leak, yet pretend to be confused about what Clinton conspiracy memes I could possibly be refering to, and how hurt you are. etc. etc. etc. Bullshit.

By happy coincidence, I stumbled across Brandolini's law yesterday, and it perfectly encasulates what is going on here. Above in 2 large paragraphs you throw 20 things up against the wall, and I'd have to write a paragraph about how each one doesn't stick in order to debunk it. I understand from the related articles Gish gallup and Spreading (debate) that this is a successful style in competitive debate. But in real life, it's not about who has developed a successful debating style, it's about who actually is right and who actually is wrong, who is actually saying fact-based things and who isn't. The false equivalancy is going to eventually lose out. The whataboutism is eventually going to lose out. The pretend hurt feelings to deflect criticism is eventually going to lose out. It's just going to take a lot more time than I hoped for it to happen. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Wrong again, Flo - I was responding to Guy Macon's comment directly above mine, which begins Remember when I argued that Team Red and Team Blue both produced lousy presidents, equally bad but bad in different ways?, so bullshit on your lame attempt to make excuses for your bullying, as if you now have a license to continue. I do not excuse your PAs, and I advise you to stop digging. BTW - successful debates don't include character assassinations against opponents, perceived or otherwise, which is what you did to me when I joined in an innocent attempt to bring a slightly different perspective to this discussion. Discussions are where people exchange thoughts and concerns collegially - it's where we learn, not where admins attack an editor for simply expressing a view they don't like. And JzG, you are obviously excluded from any concerns I have about PAs and bullying - you know I have always appreciated our discussions, even though we disagree - I don't condemn anyone for having a POV. You have been polite even though I don't agree 100% with everything you've said. Your responses are what I expected when I came here and joined the discussion, and saw that Guy Macon and other editors I thoroughly enjoy communicating with were participants. I didn't expect MastCell to start bullying me here, or that Flo would join him. I've always seen your UTP more as a safe space, as I once saw MastCell's. We live and learn from our mistakes. Atsme 💬 📧 16:24, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

MastCell, it makes me very sad. I genuinely like Betty, but I stand behind everything I have said about the right wing media bubble and Trumpism generally - for which, be it noted, I have received some serious shit, including through off-wiki attacks by the likes of "The Devil's Advocate".

In October 2018 I wrote an essay in which I clumsily tried to articulate why being a Trumpist is inconsistent with Wikipedian values. It lacked nuance, and I made numerous changes over time, but the core thesis was that Trump is not an amusing buffoon who will shake up the establishment, he is an existential threat to the United States, and failure to recognise that he is uniquely unfit is basically disqualifying per WP:CIR.

As I say, I got a lot of shit for that - rightly, it was crudely written, and I should have worked much harder to articulate my actual views - but I think I can say today that I am fundamentally vindicated. He will not be removed from office, not least because Republicans are still trying to ride the tiger, but he will be impeached and hopefully disqualified from future office.

Bill Clinton was an awful man and should have resigned. He was outclassed by Nixon in that (narrow) regard. Trump should never have been there in the first place. He is exactly what the drafters feared and guarded against by developing the electoral college.

If Ted Cruz is censured or removed, we will know that the lesson has been learned. As Lindsey Graham once said, "If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you". Well, now we know why. Guy (help! - typo?) 23:53, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Atsme, I think you might have missed the point.

Republicans allowed a narcissistic grifter to run on their ticket. The Electoral College failed its first real test. And as a result the Capitol was overrun by a hostile force for the first time since 1814 - and this time it was led (from behind, of course) by the President.

The bare minimum standard right now for involvement in civil discourse is "yeah, fuck that dude". Guy (help! - typo?) 21:15, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Guy Macon, my friend, I have more sympathy for you than almost anyone else. You are an honest and decent man, and you have been let down by shameless assholes who conned you into thinking they shared your values. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Now, now. What you call "efforts to create a representative democracy" can also be called "efforts to overthrow the rightful authority of The Crown". And it was unnecessary. Consider this: Is Canada a representative democracy? When did Canada declare their independence and go to war with Great Britain? It really isn't fair to support the violent overthrow of governments if they are governments you don't like and oppose the violent overthrow of governments if they are governments you do like. Other people have different preferences.

The proper comparison to what happened in Washington is the Beer Hall Putsch. Compare that with the July 1932 German federal election and the 1934 German referendum. Those two elections were "efforts to create a representative democracy" too. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:14, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Guy Macon, I think you are on the money with the Beer Hall Putsch. Let us hope Kristallnacht never comes. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:16, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

As I Brit, I can still understand the US Founders' desire to "create a representative democracy". Every year on 4 July, I wish all my American friends a happy Independence Day on the grounds that I have to sympathise with any folks who wanted to rid themselves of an oppressive Tory government. --RexxS (talk) 23:02, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

RexxS, As do I, though those bastards killed my ancestor. It's OK, I'm over it now. Guy (help! - typo?) 23:38, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Maybe he will nuke everyone...ride the bomb himself into San Fran?--MONGO (talk) 00:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

MONGO, honestly, I half expect him to launch strikes against Iran. I have not been this scared for a long time. Bear in mind, during the Bay of Pigs crisis my parents lived in company accommodation on the site of Handley-Page at Radlett, a known first strike target. Guy (help! - typo?) 00:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Thats more likely to happen in about 2025 after Trump gets reelected.--MONGO (talk) 01:00, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

JzG, I am being a lot ridiculous and provocative and I apologize. While I do feel that your opinions on Trump and to a lesser degree on conservatives are over the top, I also feel that they are also not without merit and much must be done to continue to find common ground for I feel that the chasm that polarizes the "sides" seems to be widening, not narrowing. We mustn't allow the far radicals on either side of that chasm to continue to keep the mainstream from finding common ground.--MONGO (talk) 04:53, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

MONGO, yes, I get it. We share at least one core value: that facts beat Truths. And we both know of old how pernicious conspiracy theories are.

It seems to me at this point that the starting point for an editor to be considered as arguing in good faith, is that they accept the legitimacy of the Nov. 3 election.

I'm not going to accept assertions of widespread Capitol Police involvement in enabling the insurrection, until I see credible evidence (beyond a few individuals whose actions look, superficially, very hard to explain). Equally, I think it is impossible to deny the direct link between the words of Donald Trump and an attempt at violent overthrow of an election he lost. As I said above, if his behaviour last week was not over the line, then there is no line.

What I find most disturbing right now is that Congressional Republicans seem to be more concerned about the impact of the Twitter Nazi ban on their follower count, than the effect of their continued promotion of blatant falsehoods about the election. Guy (help! - typo?) 10:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Besides, we can't fight in here, this is the War Room![2]--MONGO (talk) 05:06, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Here are some email excerpts of mine as of late, one was sent to someone who is distinctly on the right and the other who is distinctly on the left end of the political spectrum. Try to guess which excerpt was directed at which one! [All responses and identifiable components redacted, of course.]

"The Strom that wasn't: despair sets as reality and delusion collide"

Imagine spending the better part of the last 5 years having your brain and ego melted by uninterrupted /pol/ exposure, flying to Washington in the middle of a pandemic to hear Trump whine about Oprah and Mike Pence at a rally, marching up to congress on his orders to smash shit and then mill around aimlessly.

[Not long after, you] hear that Biden won anyway and all of your favorite Twitter news sources named like Patriot Newsman of the West with avatars of Roman statues have posted your photo online and are labeling you a "gay communist antifa actor."

Then the next day, the god emperor you pasted into warhammer memes puts out a video cucking himself and bending the knee. "I’m sorry, those were heinous acts! P-please let me tweet again, Jack!!"

You can't leave DC because the airlines have dubbed you a flight risk. You can't stay because the cops are actively looking for you after one of their own died. Your roommate at the only hotel that would accept you is a guy named Kekistani1488 who wants to show you his goblin slayer torrents. The sun is going down and you’re getting cold.

[From 2 days ago. I think that's the best thing I've ever read on Reddit (which isn't saying much, granted).]

P.S. Just making sure to note that The Storm refers to the key moment in QAnon mythology whereupon the mass toppling (arrests, executions) of the satanists (outright) who they believe control the Deep State in the US, and the NWO worldwide, takes place. To many who attended what will forever be (hopefully!) Trump's most infamous rally ever, including the woman who was fatally shot, storming the Capitol Complex was the beginning of that cathartic event.

Meanwhile, right now, many of the delusionists are totally losing their marbles (which is to say, more than ever). For example, Secratery of Mental Health, Lin Wood, who three days ago had 700,000 followers on Parler and today has over 1.6 million(!), has posted earlier today that the Pope has just been arrested by Italian Police on +80 sex crime charges. I guess exposing the lizard people comes next...

No (pertinent) title:

The non-Trumpist Americans (everywhere) are out for blood right now. They want their pound of flesh, which is understandable, with the whole Trumpist double-speak projection of trying to steal election results by, ostensibly, "Stopping the Steal." Then having this nonsense culminate in that ridiculous Beer Hall Putsch slash Duck Dynasty of an insurrection.

After all, how many tens upon tens of judges and election officials does it really take to verify tallies. Unless, of course, one inherently wishes for these tallies to remain perpetually unverifiable (so that they can be recounted over and over again, or just plain re-voted, until the desired outcome is reached). Normative folks do not take kindly to having claims of massive election fraud being incessantly spouted (except in court, where one is liable for what they say) while unsupported by any serious evidence, whatsoever. [And yet], those media oligarchs who deplatformed Trump, pretty much, if push came to shove, are his moral peers (though they'd of course strenuously deny it).

Damn, do I ever love the sound of my own voice, or what? El_C 06:52, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Everybody loves the sound of your voice. It brings joy to all who experience it. I am reminded of [ https://www.lennyletter.com/story/hillary-clinton-is-more-than-a-president ], which says:

• "I love Hillary Clinton. I am in awe of her. I am set free by her. She will be the finest world leader our galaxy has ever seen"
• "Millions of Clinton's supporters expressed it among themselves, all the time, in raptures or happy tears with each new display of our heroine's ferocious intelligence, depth, and courage. We were frankly bewildered by the idea that anyone would hedge their commitment to her"
• " Hillary Clinton's name belongs on ships, and airports, and tattoos. She deserves straight-up hagiographies and a sold-out Broadway show called RODHAM."
• "Maybe she is more than a president. Maybe she is an idea, a world-historical heroine, light itself. The presidency is too small for her. She belongs to a much more elite class of Americans, the more-than-presidents. Neil Armstrong, Martin Luther King Jr., Alexander Fucking Hamilton."
• "She cannot be faulted, criticized, or analyzed for even one more second. Instead, she will be decorated as an epochal heroine far too extraordinary to be contained by the mere White House. Let that revolting president-elect be Millard Fillmore or Herbert Hoover or whatever. Hillary is Athena."

Given what we got, Hillary is becoming more and more appealing. I'm just saying.

(I categorically deny being a conservative or a liberal, a democrat or a republican. I despise them all. If it was up to me, the next congress and presidency would be Green or Libertarian. Not that they would be any better, but it would be nice to be disappointed by somebody new.) --Guy Macon (talk) 08:02, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Guy Macon, yeah. And thanks for your email. You're a good man. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

El C, IMO MastCell is right in every particular, and you're way out of line in threatening him with a block. As Floquenbeam says, block him — F — instead, or me. MastCell's cogency is needed here. Bishonen | tålk 08:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC).

Bishonen, all of the above. But I would prefer we not eat each other in the process. People are hurt and angry - I meant what I said to Wikieditor19920. Focus on the real enemy here: batshit insane conspiracists.

There are a few good faith editors who are teetering on the brink here. Let's help them back.

That said, I think election "truthers" should be treated exactly as we treat holocaust deniers. I think that promoting false claims about the election - especially following Jan. 6 - is disqualifying for any source claiming to be reliable. No more dicking about. Blacklist any source promoting that crap. Facts beat Truth™ every time.

I've read a vast number of documents in the election lawsuits. The transparent bad faith is staggering. This, for example, is a remarkable thing. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:09, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Nah, count me out of being pulled back from any "brink". When I see multiple admins resort to extreme and ugly insults of another human being, all I can be reminded of is how much this mimics how Trump acts. Hyper partisan actions by some of our admin corp against ideological adversaries and in defense of their own ideological allies is sickening to the extreme and is the reason why some don't get to be my friends anymore. That sort of adminning brings shame to the project and to themselves. It is a misuse of the position and is either done with a conscience deliberateness or due to a completely screwed up ethical compass.--MONGO (talk) 11:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

That's all right, MONGO. At first, when you decided I 'didn't get to be your friend anymore' for political reasons, I was upset to lose our friendship which had been so long and warm. But, believe me, I'm over it. I kind of wish you'd stop with the hints, but meh. I don't hint; I tell you straight up that you can bestow your favor wherever you like AFAIC. Bishonen | tålk 11:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC).

Nothing beats a confession.--MONGO (talk) 12:18, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

MONGO, I wasn't thinking that you are one of those on the brink. There is a historically unprecedented level of unprecedentedness right now, I counsel anyone against doing anything that might have a long term consequence. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:04, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Brother, look, I cannot say a lot but let me do say there is much to worry about. Not so much over on your side of the pond, but here, yes. Hence my speech about not allowing fringes to widen the chasm.--MONGO (talk) 12:18, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

MONGO, I'm watching it in real time, old friend, and I am deeply disturbed. Stay safe. Guy (help! - typo?) 16:23, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Say what you will and think, but Joe Biden was very wrong when he said "(...) We've had racists, and they've existed, they've tried to get elected president. He's the first one that has (...)". That is, of course, ridiculous. As Derek Black pointed out: "America was founded as a white supremacist country". That notion (including that notion of entitlement) still sticks in many minds, it hasn't disappeared in over 200 years, T**** tapped into the entitlement-part, and it will take more than ruling in social media and finding ways to let facts rule over 'truth' to overcome it. Well, here we are, Guy, and sincere thanks for your efforts. I mean it. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I wonder if it's time for the folks contributing here to draw a line under this discussion? There are any number of folks I'd consider my wiki-friends posting opposing views on a very "hot-button" topic, and I really hope that all of us can remind ourselves of the far greater number of things we have in common, rather than putting emphasis on the things that separate us. One of the hard lessons I've learned over my years on Wikipedia is that whenever experienced editors concentrate on what divides us, we end up needlessly hurting each other. As Ceoil once pointed out after a particularly acerbic exchange with me (and I paraphrase) "We're never going to agree about i*f*b*x*s, but fuck it! we can agree on just about everything else." Please feel free to substitute whatever topic you wish for "i*f*b*x*s", and see if we can't cut each other a little bit of slack. I know it made my wiki-life a lot more tolerable. --RexxS (talk) 22:51, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

RexxS, There is merit in this. Fellow Wikipedians are not the enemy. However, I am terrified, in a way that non-PTSD people may find difficult to grasp, and that's not going to change until there's an adult in charge of the nuclear codes. Guy (help! - typo?) 08:48, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Why are folks here so riled up, that potential blocks are being promised? "Ladies & Gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants & slide on the ice". GoodDay (talk) 23:29, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Re my comment above, does anybody know if Olive has a significant other? -Roxy the happy dog . wooF 13:52, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

One last comment about the above: please don't reply to this, even to agree. Let it die here.

• Please try extra hard to not annoy other editors. Read and re-read before posting; emotions are high. Try to avoid saying things about an undefined group of people which might be seen as referring to any editors on this page.
• Please try extra hard not to be easily annoyed. Consider assuming that they wrote poorly and didn't mean what you think they meant. If at all possible; don't reply, or reply on their talk page. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:43, 13 January 2021 (UTC)