User talk:Bendono/Archives/2008/March

Yoon

:While the English language article Yōon only lists the the palatal -j, historically and also dialectically there was also a labial -w. For example, kwazi "fire" which once contrasted with kazi "house chores". The palatal -j only followed the orthographic -i. However, the labial -w followed the orthographic -u. Bendono (talk) 09:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused by what you mean with the word: "followed".Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 06:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

In historical orthography,

きや [kja]: や follows き (ki)

くわ [kwa]: わ follows く (ku)

Clear? Bendono (talk) 07:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. So then is this a pattern or is this only allowable to these kana? For example, could I do:

きゆ [kju]

きよ [kjo]

くを [kwa] (or [kwo]???)

くゐ [kwa] (or [kwi]???)

くゑ [kwa] (or [kwe]???)

すを [swa] (or [swo]???)

すゐ [swa] (or [swi]???)

すゑ [swa] (or [swe]???)

etc. etc.? Thank you, thank you.Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 06:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No, it does not work like that. Most of those are not acceptable. Just limited to a few. Bendono (talk) 06:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Which are acceptable, which are not?68.148.164.166 (talk) 04:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

きゆ <-- acceptable

きよ <-- acceptable

くを <-- unacceptable

くゐ <-- acceptable

くゑ <-- acceptable

すを <-- unacceptable

すゐ <-- unacceptable

すゑ <-- unacceptable

Bendono (talk) 05:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Please explain.68.148.164.166 (talk) 09:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. Explain what? Bendono (talk) 10:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Please explain why you have indicated certain full sized yoon as unacceptable and others acceptable.68.148.164.166 (talk) 08:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello?68.148.164.166 (talk) 01:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Unacceptable because they do not occur. Bendono (talk) 08:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

There's no way to predict? I guess I'll have to write them all out.68.148.164.166 (talk) 07:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Hidden Page

User:Destructo 087/Userboxes/Hiddenpage--Destructo^{Talk to me} 02:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Japanese Sound Symbolism

What kind of romanization did you use for your examples? Thanks.68.148.164.166 (talk) 09:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

8th century phonemic. Bendono (talk) 12:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, is that revised hepburn?Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 06:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No. It is 8th century phonemic. Bendono (talk) 06:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Are there any examples that you provided that are used today? If so, what do they sound like? If not, what do they mean, and how are they used?68.148.164.166 (talk) 04:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember which examples I gave. For the meaning, you could look them up in a dictionary. Bendono (talk) 05:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• bisi bisi
• kaka
• ko₂woro₂ ko₂woro₂
• moya moya
• sawi sawi (also sawe sawe)
• saya saya
• tawa tawa
• ura ura

68.148.164.166 (talk) 09:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Did you try looking them up in a dictionary? As for the pronunciation, which century would you like? Bendono (talk) 10:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Most recent. I have no Japanese dictionaries, let alone Japanese resouces.68.148.164.166 (talk) 08:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello?68.148.164.166 (talk) 01:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you want me to answer this. Your original question asked for old onomatopoeia, so I specifically listed ones from 8th century resources. Thus, forcing them to be pronounced in 21st century Japanese raises several problems: semantics change, words fall out of use, and of course pronunciation changes. If you assume that all of these words still existed and have the same meaning, then the modern pronunciation with their 8th century meanings for some would be as follows:

• biɕi biɕi 1) the sound of sniffling a running nose
• kaka 1) the sound a bird makes, 2) the sound of gulping word down
• kooro kooro, 1) the sound or manor of stirring a liquid
• sai sai or sae sae 1) the sound or manor in which an object shakes
• saja saja 1) the sound of two objects clanging together
• tawa tawa 1) the sound or manor in which an object bends or sags

Bendono (talk) 08:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

What do, or, I guess, more correctly, did, they mean?Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk)

I already answered that. You even quoted my response elsewhere. Please look in the archives. Or more ideally, just look them up in a dictionary. Bendono (talk) 09:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I thought those were the modern meanings.68.148.164.166 (talk) 05:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

As I have warned repeatedly for more than a month, they are 8th century. Talking about them in regard to modern semantics and modern pronunciation is essentially meaningless. Bendono (talk) 05:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, so they aren't.68.148.164.166 (talk) 05:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll take that as a yes.68.148.164.166 (talk) 02:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

You did not ask a question. For almost two months now we've been going in circles. Enough already. Please consult a dictionary. Bendono (talk) 03:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nesnad#gojuuon

• oy- "age": oi > *oyi, oi > *oyi, oyu, oyuru, oyure, oi(yo) > *oyi(yo)
• suw- "plant": suwe, suwe, suu > *suwu, suuru > *suwuru, suure > *suwure, suwe(yo)
• uw- "plant": uwe, uwe, uu > *uwu, uuru > *uwuru, uure > *uwure, uwe(yo)
• uw- "starve": uwe, uwe, uu > *uwu, uuru > *uwuru, uure > *uwure, uwe(yo)

However, as far back as we have Japanese texts (c. early 8th century), there is no phonological contrast between /i, yi/ and /u, wu/. You could posit two phonological rules to account for this:

• y -> Ø / _i
• w -> Ø / _u

I'm confused by what you said. There were original kana, or even manyogana for yi and wu? But they were never pronounced that way? So say, they were pronounced i and u?Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 06:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No need to fracture the conversation... See the note at the top of this page.

"I'm confused by what you said." I did not say anything; I typed it.

"There were original kana, or even manyogana for yi and wu?" No, there were not.

"But they were never pronounced that way?" At least since the 8th century, no. Anything before that is speculation.

Bendono (talk) 06:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Your joking right? (:"I'm confused by what you said." I did not say anything; I typed it.)

Ok, so then what are those "verbal paradigms" you typed about above?Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 06:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Irrealis (未然形), Adverbial (連用形), Conclusive (終止形), Attributive (連体形), Realis (已然形), Imperative (命令形). Bendono (talk) 06:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm talking about this:

• oy- "age": oi > *oyi, oi > *oyi, oyu, oyuru, oyure, oi(yo) > *oyi(yo)
• suw- "plant": suwe, suwe, suu > *suwu, suuru > *suwuru, suure > *suwure, suwe(yo)
• uw- "plant": uwe, uwe, uu > *uwu, uuru > *uwuru, uure > *uwure, uwe(yo)
• uw- "starve": uwe, uwe, uu > *uwu, uuru > *uwuru, uure > *uwure, uwe(yo)

However, as far back as we have Japanese texts (c. early 8th century), there is no phonological contrast between /i, yi/ and /u, wu/. You could posit two phonological rules to account for this:

• y -> Ø / _i
• w -> Ø / _u

What do the linguistic notation mean?68.148.164.166 (talk) 04:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Ø means null; ie, it becomes nothing or disappears. Thus, the first rule would be: "y becomes null when followed by i." I suggest an introductory course on phonology. Bendono (talk) 06:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

What about:

• oy- "age": oi > *oyi, oi > *oyi, oyu, oyuru, oyure, oi(yo) > *oyi(yo)
• suw- "plant": suwe, suwe, suu > *suwu, suuru > *suwuru, suure > *suwure, suwe(yo)
• uw- "plant": uwe, uwe, uu > *uwu, uuru > *uwuru, uure > *uwure, uwe(yo)
• uw- "starve": uwe, uwe, uu > *uwu, uuru > *uwuru, uure > *uwure, uwe(yo)

68.148.164.166 (talk) 09:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

They are four verbs. I even gave a gloss for each. Verbs conjugate. Above are all possible conjugations. Bendono (talk) 10:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

What do the hyphens and less than signs mean?68.148.164.166 (talk) 06:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Hyphen: the end of the verb stem. > really should be <, but the intended meaning is "from"; ie, "oi derives from the reconstructed form oyi". Bendono (talk) 07:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, how about the asterisks and the parenthesises?68.148.164.166 (talk) 08:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

For the asterisk, please see Asterisk#Historical_linguistics. The parenthesis means that it is optional; ie, not required. Bendono (talk) 08:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

So then would suffixes replace the hypens (right after the verb stem)?68.148.164.166 (talk) 01:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Bendono (talk) 08:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)