Template:Did you know nominations/Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 17:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

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Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire

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  • ... that Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire convinced several Iroquois tribes to ally with the French against the English in 1711 through song? "This was strikingly demonstrated in August 1711. New France was being threatened with an English attack and Vaudreuil had summoned 800 Indians from a dozen different tribes to Montreal to renew the alliance with them. The crucial moment came during a banquet on 7 August when these allies were asked to declare themselves against the English. It was then that Joncaire and Michel Maray de La Chauvignerie, who served Longueuil as interpreter among the Onondagas, stood up before the assembly, brandished hatchets, and broke into the war song. Soon all the Indians joined in, thus asserting their solidarity with the French." from Zoltvany, Yves F. (1969). "Chabert de Joncaire, Louis-Thomas". Encyclopedia of Canadian Biography. Vol. 2.
    • ALT1:... that Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire established Fort Niagara in 1720 by telling Iroquois chiefs that he wanted a house so he could visit them more often? "It was again thanks to Joncaire that New France was able to build a fort at Niagara, on Seneca territory, in 1720. [...] Early in 1720, Joncaire presented himself at their settlements and convened an assembly of the chiefs. When they had gathered he informed them that he had always derived much pleasure from his visits among them. In fact, he went on, he would come even more frequently if he had a house of his own to which he could withdraw. The chiefs replied that as one of their sons he was free to build a house for himself wherever he chose. [...] He hurried to Fort Frontenac, chose eight soldiers, and proceeded directly to Niagara." from the same source
    • ALT2:... that Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire used his fluent command of the Seneca language to negotiate the Great Peace of Montreal and establish Fort Niagara? "Joncaire, on the other, mastered [the Seneca] language and acquired a complete understanding of their mentality [...] Joncaire played a significant role in the discussions that led to the peace treaty of 1701" and ALT1 quote, from the same source

Created by MarkH21 (talk). Self-nominated at 11:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC).


General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - ?
  • Interesting: Yes
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article was moved to mainspace on September 29 and nominated the same day. Length and sourcing are adequate for DYK. The article appears neutral in tone and no plagiarism issues were detected. No images are used in the article. QPQ requirement is complete. ALT0 and ALT1 are both interesting, mentioned inline and properly cited. ALT2 appears to be a combination of facts from separate sentences. In this case, the sentence that mentions his command of the Seneca language would need a citation directly at the end. I could approve the first two hooks, or wait for ALT2 also. Overall, the article is in good shape and I would enjoy seeing it on the main page Flibirigit (talk) 20:18, 18 October 2020 (UTC) Flibirigit (talk) 20:18, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Flibirigit: Thanks for the review! Yes, ALT2 is a combination of multiple facts which are all cited from the same source:

Joncaire, on the other, mastered [the Seneca] language and acquired a complete understanding of their mentality. He was thus in a position to render precious services to New France whenever there were negotiations to be conducted with this important tribe. [...] Joncaire played a significant role in the discussions that led to the peace treaty of 1701 [...] It was again thanks to Joncaire that New France was able to build a fort at Niagara, on Seneca territory, in 1720.
— Zoltvany, Yves F. (1969). "Chabert de Joncaire, Louis-Thomas". Encyclopedia of Canadian Biography. Vol. 2.

There are also other sources (e.g. this book also cited in the article) that support the same facts:

At Montreal, where he also had a home, he seemed ersatz Seneca, familiar with the language and key personalities, with a wife and words that had weight on both sides. During 1700–1701, he took a leading part in the complicated negotiations by which Canada brokered a general peace between its traditional Indian allies and the previously hostile Iroquois, and bound the Iroquois to neutrality in future British-French disputes. [...] Reaching the peak of his influence among the Western Iroquois, in 1720 Joncaire won permission to establish a trading post at the strategic lower end of the portage around Niagara Falls.
— Gallay, Alan (2015) [1996]. Colonial Wars of North America, 1512-1763. Routledge. p. 109. ISBN 9781317487197.

— MarkH21talk 20:41, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
My only concern is that the sentence which says "The Seneca befriended and trusted Joncaire while Joncaire mastered the Seneca language" does not have a citation directly at the end of it. In other words, to show that ALT2 is cited, it needs to be clear where the citation is that says he had "fluent command of the Seneca language". Cheers. Flibirigit (talk) 23:16, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
@Flibirigit: Oh you meant in the article itself! Sorry, I thought you meant in the DYK page here. That sentence is supposed to be cited to the same refs as the subsequent sentences, but I’ve explicitly done it now. Thanks! — MarkH21talk 23:27, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
All three ALTs are now properly cited and verified, and the nomination adheres to all other DYK criteria. Flibirigit (talk) 00:15, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
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