Talk:Winthrop, Massachusetts

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Is Winthrop a town or city?

Moved from User talk:markles

Winthrop operates under a city form of government but calls itself a town.

Massachusetts town government has a town meeting and Board of Selectman. Town elections are in the spring, and are held annually.

"Towns" that operate under a "town council," without selectmen and town meeting, are operating under a city plan of government. Cities also hold elections on the traditional election day in odd numbered years. This describes the government in Winthrop.

The 2005 vote to restructure the government in Winthrop abolished Town Meeting, the Board of Selectmen, and the annual spring election.

See http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/gl-39-toc.htm for the legal rules for towns and cities.

See http://www.town.winthrop.ma.us/Pages/WinthropMA_Bcomm/councilors for the councilors in Winthrop, and http://www.town.winthrop.ma.us/Pages/WinthropMA_BBoard/010FD0E9-000F8513 for the election cycle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schlichtman (talk • contribs) 03:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't that you're right and I don't doubt your research. Nevertheless, under WP:OR, you need to show a source stating that "Winthrop is a city." It's not enough to say that MGL defines a city as such-and-such. That's good research, but it's original research and that's forbidden in Wikipedia. I've got sources that say explicitly that Winthrop is a town. It's not my research, it's a direct statement of the Secretary of the Commonwealth: http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cis/cisctlist/ctlistalph.htm. If it's out-of-date, then find a direct statement to the contrary.—Markles 10:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[End user page discussion]

The secretary of the Commonwealth is one source for a list of municipalities like this. This came up at New England town, and there are citations there on the topic showing it's not original research. There are a number of municipalities called "town of" that don't have town meetings, and it has been decided in Massachusetts court that these entities have city laws apply to them. I don't have the case name / cite unfortunately yet.
See:
There's a town hall just 3 blocks from where I live, if that helps any. -Brian, 10:52, 10/31/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.88.192.1 (talk)

It is incorrect to assume that the Town of Winthrop is actually a city under Massachusetts law using MGL Title VII Chapter 39 "Municipal Goverment" or Chapter 43 "City Charters." In Massachusetts, how a municipality refers to itself is up to the community - with the exception that Massachusetts law requires that a city have more than 12,000 in population (see Article of Amendment 89 to the Massachusetts Constitution, Section 3 at http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/Constitution). The reverse is not true - a town can have any population and remain a town. The Home Rule Petition and Town Charter were accepted by the Massachusetts legislature which means that the municipality of Winthrop is legally a town - or else the Legislature would not have accepted it - or demanded that the Town of Winthrop be renamed as a city. Just because it operates with a "city form of government" does not mean it is a de jure city. The Town of Winthrop modified its government by means of MGL Title VII Chapter 43B "Home Rule Procedures" (see http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleVII/Chapter43B) whereby any municipality (city or town) can alter its form of government in a way consistent with the Massachusetts constitution and general laws. This is also further explained in MGL Title VII 43C "Optional Forms of Municipal Administration." (see http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleVII/Chapter43C). This is what the Town of Winthrop did and what the Lesgislature accepted. If the Town wanted to be deemed a city, it would have opted for an elected Mayor, a city council and a city manager, but it chose not to do so. Jm3106jr (talk) 10:18, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If Winthrop wanted to stay a town, it wouldn't have adopted a city form of government. If a municipality abolishes the town meeting/selectmen form of government and replaces it with a council form of government, it is no longer a town, but a statutory city, regardless of what it calls itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.41.85 (talk) 02:39, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I refer you to the paragraph above yours. Regardless of whether Winthrop has a city form of government or is treated functionally as a city, it is up to the municipality to call itself what it wishes. The charter submitted to the Legislature was a Town Charter and it was accepted as such. If the legislature of the Commonwealth has accepted the charter as that of the Town of Winthrop, then it remains a town. If you have a source that shows that Winthrop is a city, then please cite it. Jm3106jr (talk) 06:07, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Secretary of the Commonwealth link above (reproduced here: http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cis/cisctlist/ctlistalph.htm ) lists Winthrop as a city ("Cities are listed in capital letters"; Winthrop is listed in capital letters), though it adds that it is one of the communities "that have applied for, and been granted, city forms of government, though they wish to be known as 'The Town of'". This seems an unambiguous statement that on the part of the Secretary's office that Winthrop is a City, though it is called a Town. AJD (talk) 07:38, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The point is conceded, but it seems ridiculous to list Winthrop as a city when every document about it, including its official website, its charter, etc. refers to it as a town. It is already cited in the body of the article as a town with a city form of government. My original solution to this debate was to begin the article by calling it a 'municipality' to avoid the constant changes between city vs. town. However, this was again changed to 'town' by another editor and it remained as such for three years until someone anonymously changed it to 'city' in the first paragraph and in the info column. However, the rest of the article refers to Winthrop as a town - which indeed is how the local government and citizens of Winthrop refer to it. I would suggest that a consensus could be again using 'municipality' rather than city or town in the first instance. Jm3106jr (talk) 16:35, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like "community" better than "municipality" since I feel it's a more common term, but I agree with the general principle of using a neutral term in the lede. AJD (talk) 21:29, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have used municipality as a trial compromise in the lead paragraph and info box because 'community' can mean many things, while the MGL refers to cities and towns as municipalities. Jm3106jr (talk) 00:58, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have reverted the edits to 'city' made by an anonymous editor (IP). Do not revert unless there is actual consensus that Winthrop should be referred to a 'city' throughout and that the word 'town' should be eliminated from the article.Jm3106jr (talk) 02:21, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So I'm from Revere (the next town over), and it is my understanding that, under MGL Winthrop is a city. I also know, for a fact, that Winthrop is officially referred to as "The town of Winthrop". Now, that's super-confusing, and I don't know the best way to deal with the entirely-true and entirely-confusing fact that "The town of Winthrop is a city". But it seems like we're not necessarily trying to establish what is right and what is wrong, but how best to incorporate this information into the article. (Note: If there is a belief that my contributions here run afoul of my self-imposed Conflict of Interest disclosure and subsequent Statement of Commitment, I will gladly strike my comments and allow the rest of the community to discuss and decide on this topic). Achowat (talk) 04:29, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Achowat. I agree with you. Boston, Chelsea and Revere in Suffolk County are of course all full fledged cities and they all have elected mayors. Winthrop does not have a mayor, but rather a Town Council President and a Town Manager. So calling Winthrop a city is very confusing to the reader from several angles. I can concede that under MGL Winthrop is de jure a city in its form of government that chooses to be called a town. However, I don't see why this confusing fact should be highlighted in this article. I think it is enough to mention it once. This is why I proposed using the neutral term municipality as this is applicable to both cities and towns in Massachusetts. While admittedly not factual in nature, I think few if any residents in the Town of Winthrop have any idea that the Town Charter that was adopted transformed Winthrop into a city - which makes sense since it was a Town Charter and not a City Charter. Also, if under MGL each municipality has the right call itself whatever it wants, should not this be the determining factor? Is there a consensus? Jm3106jr (talk) 19:53, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Winthrop is a city. The Secretary of the Commonwealth link is very clear that Winthrop is a city.

The Secretary of the Commonwealth website states that, "There are fourteen communities that have applied for, and been granted, city forms of government, though they wish to be known as “The Town of”." Thirteen of the fourteen "Cities known as The Town Of" are listed in Wikipedia as cities with absolutely no controversy. This is only a problem with Winthrop, where some editors are intent on denying the fact that Winthrop is a city and insist on calling it a town. They insist on inserting the word town in every possible place.

If I had a cat named Tiger, that wouldn't change the fact that it is a domestic shorthair. You can call Winthrop a town, you can pretend that Winthrop is a town, you can create a city with the name of "Town of Winthrop," but the fact remains that Winthrop is a city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.227.113.173 (talk) 04:16, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Given that we now have a source, would an annotation possibly sure up the confusion a regular reader would have with the sentence "The Town of Winthrop is a city"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Achowat (talk • contribs) 04:24, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This page has existed for several years. Originally Winthrop was listed as and referred to as a Town because that is how everyone in the town thinks of it and indeed Town of Winthrop is its legal name. It has been the noted ad infinitum that legally the Town of Winthrop is a city under MGL and in 2010 an edit war began. I then proposed a neutral option of calling it a municipality to end the edit warring over the issue. Even so, municipality was reverted to town at some point and I opted to let it remain. And now the issue has resurfaced after +/- three years to rename it as a city and delete every mention of the word 'town' from the article. I will now propose yet another compromise to avoid a second edit war: I will begin the article as The Town of Winthrop is a city... and I will list it as a city in the infobox. However, as MGL specifically allows any municipality to refer to itself in any way it wishes regardless of form of government, there is no reason to delete the word 'town' in the article - as the governing document of the Town is its Town Charter and the governance is a Town Council with a Town Manager. Is this enough? Jm3106jr (talk) 13:23, 25 December 2013 (UTC) Revised. Jm3106jr (talk) 13:53, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Surveillance cameras

Not sure where to put it, but according to Boston.com, Winthrop will be putting up nine surveillance cameras paid for by a grant from the Department of Homeland Security. Source — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.255.229.66 (talk) 15:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

assessment for WP:CITIES

This article is assessed at the Start-class and Low-importance for WP:CITIES (note: class rating is synched to start-class for Project Massachusetts as well, but no importance for that project was assigned).

There is a lot of information appearing here, so it's definitely more than a stub. But it's still really an indiscriminate collection of information, and needs a lot of organizational work to develop into a good, coherent article. Specific suggestions:

  • Review the US city article guidelines for tips on sections and content.
  • The first four sections in the article should be history, geography, demographics, and economy. I usually recommend putting a culture section after that, followed by infrastructure-related things at the end (government, education, transportation).
  • See WP:LEAD for tips on developing a good lead section. This should be a summary of the article.
  • See WP:CITE for information on including inline citations.
  • Trivia sections are discouraged from articles. They're acceptable and useful in the early stages of an article for quickly adding various contributions from lots of people. But they should largely be eliminated by the B-class stage, and definitely by WP:GA and WP:FA.

Hope this helps! Dr. Cash (talk) 16:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Trivia- for later use to incorporate into article

Points of Interest

1. A hockey rink is not really a site of interest. For one thing, they are common to most towns, and second, what to put there next? A donut shop? A coffee house?

(VinVin212 (talk) 07:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC))[reply]

While it's all relative, in Winthrop, Larsen Rink I would say is a site of interest. In Winthrop, places are few and far between for people to enjoy activities, which is why I included it. Regarding the water tower reference, the PDF verifies the amount of gallons and who runs it. Hope this helps. Sewnmouthsecret (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removed Flags for Additional Citations Needed

While this article does need more work and more text, I don't think more citations are needed or more clean up. It would be great if more folks would contribute to this article on the Town of Winthrop, Massachusetts to fill it out. Jm3106jr (talk) 17:47, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Date of Settlement of the area now known as The Town of Winthrop, 1630 or 1635?

This article lists the date of settlement of the Town of Winthrop as 1630. The Office of the Secretary of the Commonwealth lists the date of settlement as 1635. See http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cis/cisctlist/ctlistalph.htm. The official webpage of the Town of Winthrop lists its settlement date as 1630 where this paragraph states: "Settled in 1630, Winthrop is one of the oldest communities in the country. It was named for John Winthrop; a governor of Massachusetts and John’s son Deane Winthrop’s home, built in 1637 is now an historic site and museum." See http://www.town.winthrop.ma.us/Pages/WinthropMA_About/about. I addition a book published in 1902 states this: "Winthrop, first known as "Pullen Poynt" (Pulling Point) because the tide made hard pulling here for boatmen, was originally a part of Boston; it was part of Chelsea from 1739 until 1846, when with Rumney Marsh [now Revere] it was separately incorporated as North Chelsea, from which it was set off as a township in 1852 under its present name, in honour of Deane Winthrop (1623-1704), who was a son of Governor John Winthrop, the elder, and whose house is still standing. Point Shirley takes its name from Governor William Shirley who helped to establish a cod fishery there in 1753. Before and after the War of Independence Winthrop was a favourite seaside home for Bostonians, many prominent families, including the Gibbons, Hancocks, Bartletts, Emersons, Lorings and Lowells, having country-seats here. The community was a secluded rural retreat until the construction of the railway in 1876 converted it into a watering-place." - C. W. Hall, Historic Winthrop, 1630-1902 (Boston, 1902) cited in http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/w/winthrop.html. Can anyone verify which date is correct?

Note also that this 1902 book affirms a longstanding myth that Winthrop was named after Deane Winthrop (1623-1704), son of John Winthrop (1587-1649) who was 2nd Governor of Massachusetts and founder of the City of Boston. However, Winthrop was named after John Winthrop (and the Town website affirms this) who was of course far more famous than his son, although the fact that his son lived in what is now Winthrop no doubt was a factor in its naming. Jm3106jr (talk) 15:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New Map

Thanks to User:Rcsprinter123 for the new map showing Massachusetts, Suffolk County and Winthrop. Oddly, the new map seems to show part of East Boston as part of Winthrop. I think the part in red is meant to show portions of the runways of Logan Airport that are still legally part of the Town (Massport pays rent to Winthrop to this day), but it isn't obvious from the map. Jm3106jr (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I just take it out of the census data so don't know any details about airports and things. The map just follows official municipal boundaries. Rcsprinter123 (chinwag) @ 19:05, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Removed sentences on reverting to a Representative Town Meeting government

I removed the following from the history section as no longer current:

On July 26, 2007, the Winthrop Sun Transcript reported that a movement was beginning to abolish the Town Council and return to a Representative Town Meeting - which would thus revert Winthrop from a city back into its original status as a town. The multistage process to reverse the changes made by the 2006 charter is considered complex, so it remains to be seen what form of government Winthrop will adopt going forward.

Eight years has passed since this article and no movement to revert to the previous form of government has occurred to my knowledge. IACOBVS (talk) 23:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Someone reverted the above text. I deleted it again. If there has been any movement to restore the Town Meeting as of 2016, please indicate here and add to article. IACOBVS (talk) 15:37, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Ocean Trip on Ferry Boat Fifteen Men Will Go from Boston to Jacksonville

source of information Date: Monday, November 24, 1902 Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania) Volume: 147 Issue: 147 Page: 9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diverdan363 (talk • contribs) 12:36, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

deleted from geography section

I deleted these sentences as they read like a casual business listing that has nothing to do with geography.

In the center of town, there is the Center Business District,(or CBD as it is referred to by residents) with many businesses, including Letterie's, Black Strap Barbecue, The Winthrop Chamber of Commerce, Cervizzis Martial Arts Academy, The Winthrop Professional Building, La Siesta, Hong Kong dragon, Salon 7, Bank Of America, East Boston Savings Bank, Cafe Delite, The Winthrop Book Depot and Cafe, and many more popular spots. There is a small strip mall on the outskirts of the center called Michael´s Mall, containing Boston Tae Kwon Do, T&T, United States Postal Service and more. The Center is a popular spot for friends and residents to meet up and hang out. --IACOBVS (talk) 15:56, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Winthrop is de jure and de facto a city

The new description added to the infobox describing Winthrop as "City (de facto), Town (de jure)" is not accurate. The Town of Winthrop is de jure a city under Massachusetts law. This is because any town that abolishes a Town Meeting form of government and adopts a council-manager government as Winthrop did in 2006 is, under Massachusetts law, a city. However, Massachusetts law allows any city to call itself whatever it wishes. So several 'cities' in Massachusetts still refer to themselves as 'towns' including Winthrop. The Secretary of the Commonwealth provides this link: http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cis/cisctlist/ctlistalph.htm. It lists Winthrop as a city ("Cities are listed in capital letters"; Winthrop is listed in capital letters), though it adds that Winthrop is one of the communities "that have applied for, and been granted, city forms of government, though they wish to be known as 'The Town of'". Thus, Winthrop is de facto and de jure a city, but calls itself a town. Winthrop is thus a nominal town. However, there is no need to have this information in the infobox. I have reverted.--IACOBVS (talk) 17:12, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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