Talk:UP Fighting Maroons women's volleyball

Requested move 25 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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result:
Moved per consensus seen below. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 16:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

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UP Fighting Maroons Volleyball Team → UP Lady Maroons volleyball – This article (the subject of this talk page) is named confusingly. This apparently is about the women's volleyball team, which is called the "Lady Maroons". This would align the naming for UP varsity teams under the "UP <nickname> <sport>" nomenclature, and to other teams from other schools as well. Howard the Duck (talk) 21:57, 25 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 15:45, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Tambayan Philippines has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 15:46, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Volleyball has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 15:47, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support, including lower-case "volleyball" which is not part of the proper name of the team.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I support Lady Maroons over Fighting Maroons as a review of the sources indicates this would be the more WP:COMMONNAME. Whether the university name (or initials) is appropriate is another question. Lady Maroons is a more natural search than UP Lady Maroons. UP appears to be unnecessary WP:PRECISION and less WP:CONCISE. This may be consistent for the Philippines university league but not more widely. Similarly for UX nickname sport. Volleyball in the name phrase is not WP:NATURAL unless it is followed by team but this additional precision is unnecessary here and unlikely in other cases. It is probably better (IMHO) to add volleyball parenthetically if disambiguation is necessary. Definitely dont capitalise either volleyball or team. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:56, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  Cinderella157, this naming convention is derived from WP:CBBALL and WP:CFB where it goes like this: "<school short name> <team nickname> <gender> <sport>". Therefore, you get UCLA Bruins men's basketball, where "UCLA" refers to "University of California, Los Angeles", universally known as "UCLA". The school name is at that article title, but its sports teams are named "UCLA Bruins". In the Philippines, when you talk about "UP" in an educational and sporting context, you'd almost refer to University of the Philippines Diliman. It's so universal, other University of the Philippines System universities can't even use "UP" itself; for example, University of the Philippines Los Baños is "UPLB". Even other universities with the "UP" initialism can't use that; University of Pangasinan uses "UPang". As for unnecessary precision, our main sports article is at "UP Fighting Maroons" and I suppose "Lakers" and the former "Redskins" aren't as precise as the "Los Angeles Lakers" and "Washington Redskins" (now the "Washington Commanders") as the former two are universally understood to be the basketball and American football team, respectively.

  There's a catch in Philippine usage: in UCLA, all sports regardless of gender use "Bruins", so whether it's women's gymnastics or men's soccer, it's always "UCLA Bruins". In the Philippines except for the Ateneo Blue Eagles, women's teams use the feminine form of the men's team. Therefore, for UP's usage, the men's teams are the "Fighting Maroons", while the women's teams are the "Lady Maroons". This means we'd also use WP:CBBALL and WP:CFB convention if the team nicknames from the same school are different. For the Hawaii Rainbow Warriors and Rainbow Wahine, the men's basketball team is at Hawaii Rainbow Warriors basketball (notice the absence of "men's"), while its women's volleyball team is at Hawaii Rainbow Wahine volleyball (again, notice the absence of "women's"); this is the naming convention we're applying for this article.

  There's another catch: Some schools have in every sport save for basketball uses a sport-specific nickname. So volleyball teams use "Spikers", football (soccer) teams use "Booters", chess teams use "Woodpushers", etc. In UP's case, it doesn't apply to their women's volleyball team as they apparently use "Lady Maroons" just as the women's basketball team, but not the women's football (soccer) team. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:42, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  Hi Howard the Duck, could you be a little more specific as to where these naming conventions are documented. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:43, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  Cinderella157 AFAIK, this is not set in stone (am not a member of WP:CBBALL or WP:CFB), but the nearest "codification" of this is for basketball at Wikipedia:WikiProject College Basketball/Master Table, and for football, it is at Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Style guide and the fact that hundreds of articles are named this way. Again, the Philippine experience is sorta different vs. the U.S., but the idea was copied from the Americans. Howard the Duck (talk) 23:49, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  As for Philippine usage; there are different naming conventions in use at Wikipedia, and I've set out several RMs to standardize it. A list is at Talk:University Athletic Association of the Philippines#College sports articles naming. This is the first time things such as this are standardized. Howard the Duck (talk) 23:51, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  This type of naming system creates long names with (usually) unnecessary precision and having UP (or like) at the start complicates searches when the nickname is the WP:COMMONNAME. I'm not convinced that such a system is reasonable or necessary. It does not appear to be consistent with WP:AT nor the best interest of our readers. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:11, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

  FWIW, TV broadcasts and newspaper articles refer to the team as the "UP Lady Maroons" in the first reference, then either "UP" or "Lady Maroons" in subsequent references. TV broadcasts don't even use "Lady Maroons" in their score bugs but "UP" except for after-set score bugs where they show the full name. It's sorta like everyone knows what the "Lakers" is but Wikipedia has to complete the "Los Angeles Lakers" name. Again, AFAIK sports team names outside the "Football Club" and similar names are named like this. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:03, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

  Here's an example on how the TV coverage looks like. It appears they even ditched the team nicknames in the after-set score bugs (see 7:31 for example). Howard the Duck (talk) 12:37, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

  Update: A parallel RM elsewhere had successfully moved "Ateneo Lady Eagles volleyball" to "Ateneo Blue Eagles women's volleyball" (unlike other UAAP teams, Ateneo renamed all of their teams regardless of gender, sport or level as the "Ateneo Blue Eagles"). It's imperative that this article is moved to the suggested title for consistency purposes. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.