Talk:Torii

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On removal of sun legend

Shouldn't there have been a "Citation required" tag added instead of deleting outright? The legend, and purported connection to Torii origin, is mentioned in the equivalent Japanese wiki page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.250.107 (talk) 08:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Torii and birds

"as hinted by the kanji (鳥 tori: bird; 居 i: place)"

It is more like (鳥 tori: birds; 居 i: exist). Roughly speaking the kanji is used for the existence (and, indirectly, presence) of living beings. The "this kanji = that meaning" way of thinking is a bit of a mugs game but I don't know if I want to encourage people to go away thinking "居 i: place". 86.25.51.27 18:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If they're meant for birds to rest on why is there only one image of a torii with birds on it in the commons? It doesn't seem like torii serve their function very well. --SeizureDog 21:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's just that birds haven't yet managed to realise it. :) chery 17:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--- --- ---

I've heard a few times that walking through these gates is supposed to protect one from evil spirits or that they cant go through the gates. What about that? --D-Gen 15:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The account of Amaterasu being coaxed out of a cave by cooing birds and sumo wrestlers strikes me as being almost definitely apocryphal. Call me crazy.

Just, you know, the version I've heard involved her fellow named deities, no anonymous giant wrestlers.

This completely fails to jibe with Japanese mythology.--Darksasami 22:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the Sumo bit appears to come from this site, which appears to be a personal interpretation of religion and not a definitive source. I've tagged that bit with a citation needed note. It sounds dodgy to me. Tony Fox (arf!) 05:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

very true. the mythology is completely different and deals with an erotic dance to coax out amaterasu. amaterasu is then transfixed by her own beauty by a nearby mirror.

Given that the stupa at Sanchi in Madya Pradesh, India has a gate that is very similar and was built in the Third Century BCE...the gates at the stupa are called "Torana" there is a chance that the Torii are an idea borrowed from Buddhism

I think it's something to do with "The place where birds reside", because "居" can mean "reside"... Moocowsrule (talk) 08:52, 9 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule[reply]

Plus, just because there's only one picture with birds perching on Torii, doesn't mean that that's not it's purpose. It's not a bird house, it's a Shinto shrine. Moocowsrule (talk) 08:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule[reply]

Origin of Torii

Google Translate's version doesn't seem to mention this theory, or only with great obscurity (Japanese's a hard language indeed :)). But maybe your ja-1 is enough to grab some meaning out of it? Our article may need some correction. chery 17:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

起源 Origin

鳥居の起源については諸説あるが、確かなことは分かっていない。

There are various theories concerning the origin of Torii but nothing certain.

天照大御神（あまてらすおおみかみ）を天岩戸から誘い出すために鳴かせた「常世の長鳴鳥」（鶏）に因み、神前に鶏の止まり木を置いたことが起源であるとする説、

the theory that it is left as a perch for cockerels in front of the god in reference to the [heavenly warbler] (type of chicken) made to crow to lure Amaterasu from behind the cave door(boulder).

インド仏教にみられるトラナや中国の華表や鳥竿など海外に起源を求める説などがある。

Theories seeking sources from abroad such as that it is from the Torana of Indian Buddhism, or China's kahyou (華表), torizao (鳥竿), etc.

いずれにせよ、8世紀ごろに現在の形が確立している。

In any case it came to it's current form in around the 8th century.

語源についても同様に不明である。鶏の止まり木を意味する「鶏居」を語源とする説、「とおりいる（通り入る）」が転じたとする説、トラナを漢字から借音し表記したとする説などがある。

The etymology of the word is similarly vague. There is a theory that it derives from 鶏居 (meaning chicken perch), that it is derived from 通り入る (to walk in), and that it is an expression for torana (トラナ) with phonetic kanji applied.

Hopefully a little better than Google translate anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.51.27 (talk) 03:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is a statement about the origin of torii. "Other scholars believe that they are related to the Korean hongsalmun, another red gate." However the cited source "일본 견문록(Korean)" is hardly deserved to be a reliable source. It is an essay. So I changed the statement with the description from the same source as Indian origin: "Other scholars believe that they are related to the bairou(牌楼) in China or the kousenmon(紅箭門) in Korea. Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Shinto & Torii are unrelated to Korea.Garlic764 (talk)

We have sources that say torii and hongsal-mun may be related. Do you have any that state otherwise? If not, please stop removing content that is cited to reliable sources. —howcheng {chat} 22:24, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This information seems to be required for NPOV. Excluding it seems like a single POV. William Avery (talk) 22:45, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. This edit makes it clear that Garlic764 is only interested in removing any connection between the Korean and Japanese cultures due to some severe bias s/he holds. —howcheng {chat} 00:34, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unless it is denied, can we assume that the IP-hopping anon is Garlic764? I think semi-protection may be in order. William Avery (talk) 01:06, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I made the request. —howcheng {chat} 02:17, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

Can someone add the approximate pronunciation for westerners? Is it Tore-ee-ee, Tore-eye-eye, or something else? Thanks. Jimaginator (talk) 14:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The little question mark next to the kanji (Chinese characters) leads to Help:Japanese, where you can find a pronunciation guide, but it sounds like "Tor-ee". howcheng {chat} 17:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much Jimaginator (talk) 19:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Shinto", not "Shintoism"

I am not an expert on Japanese religion, but from my reading I have been instructed that "Shintoism" is an improper designator, because Shinto is not characterized by a clearly defined set of doctrines or speculative philosophy. This may only be a minor point; however, it also is only a minor edit. Even if both are correct, I don't see why "Shintoism" would be preferable in this context, so I think this change is on the safe side. SCPhilosopher (talk) 21:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Citations/References

I noticed that one of the references in the article is actually linked from another encyclopedia. For all practical purposes, I view that as Encyclopedia Britannica referencing Wikipedia in its article. Someone should find a credible reference for the citation and move the existing encyclopedia reference to an Also See or External Links section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.161.86.254 (talk) 15:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your analogy is incorrect; Wikipedia is usually not considered a reliable source, whereas Britannica (and by extension the ones referenced here) is. howcheng {chat} 16:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to point out that the JAANUS website is referenced in several ways and in several places. These should be changed to one reference/link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deinesjw (talk • contribs) 04:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Materials used in building Torii

Newer Torii's are just like any other piece of modern architecture. Just one example of a maker who does Torii's using stainless steel below: http://www.sankei-torii.com/characteristic/index.html Hope it's not necessary to find manufacturer's homepage for every kind of material. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mantokun (talk • contribs) 17:10, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]