Talk:Tió de Nadal

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I'm not completely sure of my translation from Catalan here, although I was helped by having some familiarity with the tradition in question. It would be greatly appreciated if someone with better Catalan would have a pass at this. I've left two phrases untranslated for the simple reason that I was very unsure of what they mean. These are marked in red in the text. If anyone can translate them, even roughly please do so!

I realize that some of this may seem very vulgar and scatalogical. All I can say is, yes, it is, a lot of Catalan traditions (and, in fact, several other Catalan Christmas traditions) are vulgar and scatalogical. Take it or leave it. Similarly, I've chosen to try to stick pretty closely to the tone of the Catalan-language article: "caga" has about the same level of obscenity as "shit", and (unless I am mistaken; I'm less sure of this one) "pixa" has about the same level of obscenity as "piss." -- Jmabel 08:54, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I'm Catalan. Usually (in other uses) these words ("cagar", and "pixar") can seem litle scatological, but in these traditional situations no. Think that this is a tradition for the litle children. Llull 15:51, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, they are still scatalogical, just acceptably so! -- Jmabel 19:07, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

actually its called shit log

Is this a Hoax?

I am inclined to believe this is a hoax, especially considering the resemblance to Mr. Hanky out of South Park. Hmm. Morwen 11:16, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)

Well, maybe the South Park creators had been to Barcelona in December. That's how I originally learned about this stuff. -- Jmabel 19:07, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I've found this which implies it is actually a sort of cake: http://inicia.es/de/bufquebueno/512.htm Secretlondon 11:25, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, that what is a sort of cake? -- Jmabel 19:07, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It's not a hoax nor a cake; it's a real catalan tradition. Right now I have no time to edit the article, but it's ok. Here you can read a little more about this tradition (in catalan). And if you think this is scatological, look for the caganer. Again this is no fake nor hoax nor a cake XD -- 1984 12:22, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the backup, 1984. Yes, I plan to do an article on caganer, if no one from Catalunya beats me to it. -- Jmabel 19:07, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Just adding my bit to confirm that this is no hoax...I live here in Catalonia, and can say that's it's for real. My 6-year old neighbor came by last night to inform me that his Caga Tió had arrived from his journey down from the mountains the night before. See Tió de Nadal for a picture of him. --skyboy 00:17, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Reliable source on Cagatio in English: http://www.ihes.com/bcn/spanish/barcelona/christmas_in_barcelona.html 213.254.90.177 21:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

If anyone else is still in doubt, I saw a Tio de Nadal celebration this afternoon on a Teletubbies re-run (it was the portion early in the program, in which they show a few children participating in some sort of activity). The scene was introduced as being in Spain rather than being specifically Catalan. Unsurprisingly, they provided no English translation of the "Caga Tio" song. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

We are an American family that has hosted students from Catalonia for years. Yes indeed, Tió is a legitimate Christmas log that "poops" out presents. They don't just poo little stuff though, I know of one Tió that pooped out a Playstation. I also have an English translation of a traditional Tió song if anyone is interested. - Epousesquecido (talk) 15:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Another Catalan vouches for the article

I've seen the article and it's really correct. The 'tio' and the 'caganer' were ancient traditions here, some people says from the celtics and ibers. Its a pity, but, that only this escatological traditions were allowed by Franco and others opressors of Catalan's culture, surely knowing the negative factor that can it be. Its a pity that in nowadays in Spanish televisions only speak about Catalan's traditions when time of 'Caganers' or 'Caga tio', and not when time of 'Castellers' (human castles), 'correfocs' (a race of men and devils, with fire and dragons, more ancient than christianism), Sant Joan (when all towns have fires and party on the beach or in the middle of the town), etc... It's only another attempt to eliminate catalan culture. Well, here in Catalonia we know were is the war. If anybody want to see more catalonian tradition (and women, the most beautiful, of course) come here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.3.221.180 (talk • contribs) 7 October 2006.

I presume that by "escatological" you mean "scatological", not "eschatological"! For whatever it is worth, we have articles on correfocs and castellers. I don't know if we have anything on the Sant Joan traditions; we should.

Having visited Catalonia at least half a dozen times over the last 20+ years, I would say that Catalan traditions are no more beleaguered than any others in Europe. Franco's been dead a long time and the doctors say he'll probably stay that way. The Generalitat gives about as much subsidy to both high culture and popular culture as anywhere else I can think of. - Jmabel | Talk 05:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Can I add: I'm amused. I knew people would think this was a hoax or a miscomprehension on my part (see my original comment indicating where I was translating from when I first checked the article in). A lot of the articles I'm translating related to Catalan myths and legends are like that. This is wild and wonderful stuff, one of the few places in the world where a modern, largely urbanized society has really held on to the sort of traditions that elsewhere you only find in some isolated rural town. -- Jmabel 19:07, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hey, 80.58.36.107, thanks for the correction on the word "Tió", but is there any good reason you removed the content about some people calling him "Caga Tió"? I realize it's a modern usage rather than part of ancient tradition, and I said as much, but it's in the Catalan-language article and I can't think why it shouldn't be in the English as well. -- Jmabel 19:33, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Please, don't use this modern deformation "Caga Tió". Deaj! Is the image that you uploaded free. Llull 10:02, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Related songs

The very comprehensive set of lyrics of related songs recently anonymously added probably does not raise copyright issues: this is genuine folk material. However, I doubt that all this was someone's personal knowledge. There should be a citable source. Also, I don't think this is really wikipedia material. Maybe WikiSource? Does anyone know what we've done with other similar material (non-copyrighted songs that are not of an importance comparable to, say, a national anthem)? -- Jmabel | Talk 22:21, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

Wikisource, pure and simple regardless what was done before. It is not, like, 1-2 examples to the point. Mikkalai 05:54, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think that the song should be left in the article, I have seen it in many Wikipedia articles from another languages and I cannot see a reason why shouldn't be in the English Wikipedia. Kors2019 2:16, 5 Jun 2021 (UTC)

Relation to "tío"

I really don't see the need to state that it's unrelated to the Spanish "tío". It's not really a surprising fact. I'm sure that "tio" probably means things in other languages too, but there's no need to state that the two words are unrelated. 83.34.172.145 (talk) 18:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Probably because Spanish is also spoken in Catalonia, you know, so for clarification. Kingsif (talk) 22:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Language

Not sure that poop is the appropriate word to use here. Not sure what it sounds like inside, but outside America it sounds both childish and odd, certainly not encyclopaedic in tone. We should either come up with something in a higher register or go for the less dialectical shit since that's what we're talking about. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 08:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

"Shit" is the appropriate word; I'll change it in a while unless anyone comes up with a compelling reason not to. Earlier revisions have "shit", I suspect censorship.   pablo_hablo. 23:20, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I came here to see if 'poop' was really the tone conveyed by the Catalan, and it looks like it isn't. 86.164.78.91 (talk) 18:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Shit is a vulgarity in English language and culture that does not equate to Caga in Spanish. If it did then Caga would not be used the way it is because Shit is not used this way in English. It is not a word celebrated and used publicly. Instead, the word's use is conveyed in shame and there are punishments in many areas for its usage, such as by children or in public. There are alternatives. The vulgarity of several English words is a cultural understanding that many non-native speakers don't fully grasp until their English level is quite high.

I agree. I’ll admit Catalan isn’t my most fluent of Romance languages, but even so, though it’s likely a bit stronger than poop, I think shit is way more offensive/taboo to English speakers than cagar.

Might I suggest “crap?” Poop, however, does feel to me like what you’d say about this in English, though. —Wiki Wikardo 09:33, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I know these are old comments and half are unsigned, but I question the fluency in English of the user claiming that the cultural understanding of "shit" is something others aren't grasping when they have also claimed it is not a word [...] used publicly as if it isn't even censored on TV. It's a closer translation than "poop", and more accurate in a structural sense than "crap", though "crap" is probably also fine. How "caga" translates is "shit", and if users deem that this is not close enough to the sentiment, then "caga" should be used instead of trying to pick a different English word that also will not match. Kingsif (talk) 22:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

It would be good if someone changed the word "turrón" to "nougat" which is a kind of candy. I know in the United States people aren't as familiar with it unless it's covered in chocolate (à la Snickers bar, etc), but in other parts of the world it's more widely recognized. And it doesn't really do much good to leave it in Catalonian, since then people are left to wonder, and given the nature of the rest of the song, God only knows what they will be wondering. I mean, it's already hyperlinked to nougat. Why not just change the word (but leave the hyperlink, it's useful)? Pioneercynthia (talk) 03:52, 2 December 2012 (UTC) (Okay, I just figured out how to do that. If you want to change it back, it's up to you. My work here is done.)

Since turrón is a type of nougat, it should not be categorised. This is Wikipedia, people can click to find out what it is if they don't know. This change is like saying non-French people won't know croissant so replace it with pastry. A terrible idea. Kingsif (talk) 22:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

shit vs. poop

Translating "caga" into "shit" in the English translation of the Caga tió song is wrong. It carries vulgar and offensive connotations more suited to adult themes, out of place in a children's song. A more appropriate verb would be poop or poo. 67.249.136.80 (talk) 07:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

It's not wrong, though, because that is how it translates, even if not exact ("shit" is even closer than a literal "defecate", of course). "Poop" would be "caca", and it's more of a wrong translation (as I see has been discussed above) because the sense that "poop" gives is like adults making a juvenile joke, rather than what kids would actually say. Finally, "shit" isn't a particularly offensive or vulgar word, certainly not "adult themes"... even as a child, it would be more shocking to hear it just for hearing it than for any implications. Kingsif (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)