Talk:The Four Seasons (band)

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Should Frankie Valli's solo singles be listed here? He has his own page, and on at least some of them, none of the musicians are from the Four Seasons.Rigadoun 18:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation: The Four Seasons have performed as both The Wonder Who? and under Frankie Valli's name. Frankie did not have a real solo career for some time, and Buddy Holly didn't really have a real one at all. Marcus 18:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Frankie Valli's real solo career began in 1965, and was indeed real. However, on most of his solo albums, the musicians consisted of whoever was in the Four Seasons at the time, plus other musicians. The Four Seasons never performed as the "Wonder Who" although they released 3 singles under that name. Everyone knew who it was at the time, and the music was performed under the Four Seasons name.
Even then, the Four Seasons also performed on the Valli "solo" LPs. The distinction is only for promotion and sales. "My Eyes Adored You" was originally recorded as part of a Four Seasons LP; Valli bought the recording after Motown dropped them and Private Stock Records issued the same master recording as a "solo" record as well. His first solo hit without the Four Seasons was "Swearing' to God" in 1975 ("My Eyes Adored You" was originally recorded for a Four Seasons album that was never released). B.Wind 22:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "The Four Seasons have performed as both The Wonder Who? and under Frankie Valli's name." As recordings, yes, 'The 4 Seasons' performed as 'The Wonder Who?' (not a well-kept secret, by the way). In live performance, a concert by The 4 Seasons (and I attended such concerts in the sixties) included a performance of "Don't Think Twice" where they joked about 'The Wonder Who?'. To say that 'The 4 Seasons' performed on Frankie Valli's solo recordings stretches things a bit. Yes, they performed vocally in the background on this or that track (check out "September Rain" for their presence), but generally speaking they were not that involved. To say Frankie's "real" solo career began in 1965 is not necessarily aceptable as he had a commercial solo release as far back as 1953. If it's meant to distinguish those early releases because he recorded under different names, I suppose B.Wind has a point. I have heard a different version of the tale about "My Eyes Adored You" - that it was a solo recording. Finally, I don't agree that Frankie's first solo hit without The Seasons is "Swearin' To God". As I stated, the members of The 4 Seasons did not perform instrumentally or vocally on many of those Smash and Philips releases. I think that because both Crewe and Gaudio were involved in the production of these earlier solo releases, it is assumed that Gaudio along with the other Seasons did perform on them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbrownlie (talk • contribs) 19:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons - discography

Is there any particular reason why "The Night" (an amazing record!) has not been included amongst the singles?? Also, what about "You're Ready Now" and "I'm Gonna Change"?

RegardsCaff68 16:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Actually, there are quite a few omissions in the discography. This will be addressed as soon as I get a more complete listing from 1969 to 1973 and after 1977... and without the repetition from all the Vee Jay reissues. I'm starting with the infoboxes for the Top 40 hits. B.Wind 22:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

UPDATE. There is enough U.S. singles discography for a standalone list article. Once I confirm the post-1980 U.S. singles releases, I'll establish List of U.S. singles by Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons, which will list all the U.S. commercially-released singles by Frankie and company from his first, "My Mother's Eyes" in 1953, to the present. As I have virtually no access to U.K. release information, I hereby ask for assistance from the eastern shore of the Atlantic to fill in a U.K. discography when I post the article (message to Caff68: "The Night" was never released in the U.S. as a commercial single, apparently. According to Goldmine, promotional copies of "The Night" were distributed by Motown (as a Frankie Valli "solo"!), but the single was apparently withdrawn). B.Wind 01:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This list article is turning out to be huge - I'd urge a separate List of U.K. singles by Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons, which I'd anticipate to be much shorter. As it is, I'm having difficulty verifying the release years of CD singles... or, for that matter, what was released as a Four Seasons or Valli single after 1986. Any help on this will be greatly appreciated. B.Wind 20:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I do get a little tired of the way in which US bands biographies always end up skewed towards a US audience. The Seasons had great success in the UK in the mid 70s, as did Franki solo. 'Who loves you', 'December 63' and 'Silver star' were all Top 10, chart hits. Frankie had big hits with 'My eyes adored you', 'Swearin to God', 'Fallen Angel', 'My eyes adored you' and 'Grease'. Why are these things not reflected in this article?.

I disagree. I believe the home country of an artist should be the sole source of the discography. Anything else is an adjunct to a career. Who's to say that this country or that country's releases are any less valuable (45 rpm picture sleeves from all over the world have shown value through the years). Ultimately, it would make for huge, unwieldy lists. Of course, this belief of mine dictates that Enlgish groups, like The Beatles, should show their British discographies solely. Well, that is fine by me. Anyone with a modicum of interest would, hopefully, pursue more information. At the same time, I'm not discounting any one's arguement (after all, The Beatles, for one, certainly had a major impact in more than one market around the world). It's just my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbrownlie (talk • contribs) 04:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Im revising this whole article

This is a very poorly written article and I am going to start my major revision —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.40.132.53 (talk • contribs)

  • I'm also doing quite a bit of updating as well, not the least being elimination of duplication and straightening out the history and discography.B.Wind 22:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very surprised that no one actually seems to follow the history of the group's name. It began as "The 4 Seasons' and this is evident on, I believe, every album through 'Chameleon' (circa 1972). The 45 rpm single releases changed sometime in the mid-sixties to "The 4 Seasons featuring the "sound" of Frankie Valli'. I'm not sure when they started using 'The Four Seasons'. It may seem like a minor matter, but anyone looking for their early recordings might not "get it". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbrownlie (talk • contribs) 19:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Musicians added to "Former Members" list

I've noticed that someone has added a bunch of new "former members" en masse to the article without attribution. If no sources are provided for these new entries, they will be removed per WP:V and WP:RS. B.Wind 03:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The list of former members is extended and is attributed to researching various Rhino Records compilation CD booklets. It is an extensive list, some of these musicians are fairly well known to Seasons fans and the music world at large. I believe they deserve recognition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbrownlie (talk • contribs) 00:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Don't forget to cite the source(s)! B.Wind (talk) 22:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As stated above the source for the "former members" are the CD booklets contained in releases by Rhino Records, especially the box set '...jersey beat...'. That being said, I'd be happy to add this as a source to the main article, but I see there is a self-contained "reflist". I don't understand how to edit that. Is it enough to just add the source below the "reflist"? Not trying to be difficult, but I'm learning. Bbrownlie (talk) 14:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)bbrownlie[reply]


I agree that the musicians deserve credit. However, I see several problems with the listings, and I do not have the time right now to research them. However, this is what I've found, in case anyone else is able to fix these issues:

  • Clicking Lee Shapiro's name directs one to an article on a documentary filmmaker, hence, does not appear to be the same person
  • Clicking the Gerri Polci link simply redirects one to the Four Seasons article
  • The Robby Robinson link is to an article about a former bodybuilder, also not a member of the Four Seasons

There may be other, similar issues with the members, but these are what I have found so far. Sorry I am not able to edit them at this time.

LoriM5160 (talk) 01:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lori, I agree. I did some of the original work on this list of former members a while back. I don't know who revised names to links becasue of the obvious errors. Thank you if you, or anyone else, gets a chance to revise those incorrct links. Bbrownlie (talk) 04:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)bbrownlie[reply]

The only reference to Gerry Polci I can find is a brief mention of his vocals in this article and the one for December 1963, and a reference to his work as a band teacher at a middle school in New Providence, NJ. 131.96.47.8 (talk) 20:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see the recent back and forth about including Robbie Robinson in the list of members versus past members. This is a difficult issue for some. It is because Robbie is not actually credited as a Season; he is the band leader/conductor (and a good one at that). So, does he deserve member status? Does the column title "Past Members" need to be changed to reflect something like "Past and Current Members/Musicians". Do we elevate to "Current Member" status those who are actually credited as Seasons (the dancing, singing backup guys), or, should it be based on the Four Seasons Partnership which is only Gaudio and Valli or should it just be Valli. Take it a step further, maybe the column title should be changed to "Current Performimng Members" versus "Past Memebers" with a parenthese to include what each musician does - (leader) (drums) (backup vocals, dancing), etc. This is difficult because, to some, it takes away from the status of the original four and Joe Long as the "real" 4 Seasons, everyone else after taking on a role in a band behind Frankie Valli. Food for thought.Bbrownlie (talk) 00:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Should this reference be included?

When Billy Joel's 'Uptown Girl' was released, there seemed to be consensus that it was derivative and a tribute to the style of The Four Seasons; the article for the song even mentions it.Grandma Roses 11:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Numeric 4

Hi

On ALL of the album covers the name of the group is shown as "The 4 Seasons". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.90.211 (talk) 23:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is not true. Though I agree with your sentiments about the use of the numeric "4" (I mean, really, now, the group was known as "The 4 Seasons" from the beginning and for many years). It appears to me that they started using the alpha characters "Four" with the release of 'Chameleon' on MoWest (Motown). Bbrownlie (talk) 13:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)bbrownlie[reply]

  • As far as I can tell, all their hit singles from 1962 to 1970 were credited to "The 4 Seasons." The first charted single as "Four Seasons" was "Who Loves You" in 1975. --Walor (talk) 07:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wrong! "Patch of Blue" in 1970 was not a hit single, and it was credited to "Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons" if you read the cover. Marcus2 (talk) 01:46, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Marcus2, the single "Patch of Blue" shows the group as 'Frankie Valli & the 4 Seasons'. As far as I can tell, the first instance using the word "Four", on a single, was the UK release of "Sleeping Man" where the group is shoewn as 'Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons' in the year 1971. Bbrownlie (talk) 14:16, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Four Seasons - some thoughts on correcting this page

1. The reference to an Itaian-American sound. What is this? The Seasons never recorded anything I would chalk up to as a representation of an Italian-American sound. They were a popular vocal/instrumental group that sang pop, rock and R&B material as far back as, at least, The Four Lovers (back then they recorded Otis Blackwell material). Even Sinatra doesn't sing something you could refer to as the Italian-American sound. Even "My Mother's Eyes", recorded by Frankie in 1953, is not an Italian song.

I don't think there's any problem stating their heritage, but I don't think it's a sound as referred to here.

2. I would never consider Frankie or The Seasons, as a whole, as purveyors of something called "brown-eyed soul". There's not one song they recorded I would consider of the soul music variety. Yes, they were certainly influenced by Motown - it's never more evident than in the recording "Opus 17", but Motown was the pop side of soul music. I'm not even sure what "brown-eyed soul" is; I note here that The Righteous Brothers were referred to as "blue-eyed soul".

Regarding my comment that I didn't know what "brown-eyed soul" is, I now know (thanks to Wikipedia). It is a reference to the latino/hispanic heritage and popular music. Bbrownlie (talk) 23:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)bbrownlie[reply]

I edited the genre to better encapsulate their music. I am open to discussion. Bbrownlie (talk) 16:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)bbrownlie[reply]

Regarding Joe Long joining The 4 Seasons - Joe Long himself says, in a recent interview, he joined the 4 Seasons in September of 1965 for live performances. It can be ascertained Charles Calello left at the same time. The Joe Long interview can be found on the excellent web site genuine-imitation-life-gazette.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbrownlie (talk • contribs) 05:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not in any way, shape or form "Italian." This is an American band with a wholly American sound.97.125.81.195 (talk) 02:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Redlinks

There are an awful lot of redlinks in the "albums" section. It's hard to believe they will all become articles in the foreseeable future. Would it not be more sensible, and aesthetically more pleasing, to de-link them? 86.41.34.69 (talk) 12:46, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the redlinks should be removed. Bbrownlie (talk) 17:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of title 'Jersey Beat'

Why would anyone assume or believe that part of the title of the album package '...Jersery Beat...' was derived from the phrase "Mersey Beat". That seems like such a stretch. The word "Beat" could just be a reference to rock (or "Beat") music in general. Bbrownlie (talk) 17:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

December 1963

This article indicates: "December, 1963 (Oh, What a Night)" had Polci singing lead in the first verse, Ciccone in the second, and Valli doing lead vocals only in the chorus.

Vintage youtube videos (at least one of which claims to be from 1975, the time of this recording) has the drummer singing all verses, and the bassist singing the bridgey parts. Perhaps that's what is meant here, but I don't think calling it the "second verse" is appropriate, if indeed the album was recorded in this manner (seems odd they'd change singers between verses). TheHYPO (talk)

Only act?

The article says, "In fact, The Four Seasons are the only act to have a Hot 100 #1 hit before, during, and after the years that the Beatles had their Hot 100 #1 hits." Wouldn't the Beach Boys also have had top 100 hits before (Surfin' Safari), during (Fun, Fun, Fun), and after (Sail On Sailor, Kokomo)the Beatles' run? 72.174.61.82 (talk) 16:41, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to The Beach Boys discography, their first of 4 Hot 100 #1 singles was "I Get Around" in May 1964, which was after the Beatles' first #1 hit. (The others were "Help Me, Rhonda", "Good Vibrations" and "Kokomo".) So the Beach Boys did not accomplish it. - AyaK (talk) 23:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism?

Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon to revert my edits and call it vandalism? Maybe I shouldn't have removed one of those categories, but the rest I removed is uncited, speculative, and/or dubious. What seems to be the problem? 69.123.125.243 (talk) 23:11, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take a stab at this for you. You seem to have an issue with the description of the album 'Genuine Imitation Life Gazette'. For me, the album is worth noting and this wasn't a particularly lame paragraph. I might have taken issue with some of the verbiage, but this era was the beginning of a low period in the career of The 4 Seasons. If it was or still is possible, a discussion of this would be better instead of the back and forth effort of putting it in, taking it out, which is a bit silly. One issue I have with wikipedia myself is the use of personal thought versus cited sources. Yes, personal thought borders on opinion, but it's not always wrong or void of value. A cited source can be better, but who evaluates that source for accuracy and objectivity toward its subject. So, for me, I don't exactly know why the inclusion of this paragraph bothers you so, enough to engage in this back and forth. Some form of mutual editing and sourcing might have done the trick instead. I hope I'm coming off as rational about this.Bbrownlie (talk) 00:07, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Where are The 4 Seasons from?

They are definitely from New Jersey, but are they from Belleville or Newark or some combination? Focusing on the major players, Tommy DeVito was from Belleville (he is considered by many to be the leader of the group - yes, it's true), Nick Massi and Frankie Valli were from Newark, Bob Gaudio was from New York City (Bronx), Joe Long was from Elizabeth, Bob Crewe was from Belleville, and Charles Calello was from Newark. Personally, I'm as confused as anyone who is bothered by going with Belleville or Newark. It might be appropiate to just go with New Jersey.Bbrownlie (talk) 16:16, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Past Members

Am I the only one who thinks the "Past Members" section in the info box is unnecessarily long? I don't know of any of other Wiki pages of bands lists former members in this format. Considering the "Studio Musicians" section only lists 16 people and the Past Members info box has 38 people, there is no explanation as to whether the other 22 people are simply touring members or what other than a few in-line comments here and there. I'd simply make this change, by I know nothing about the evolution of the group besides adding in a section called "Other past members" and doing a cut and paste. Other suggestions? Ckruschke (talk) 18:16, 30 September 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke[reply]

Using 1962 as a starting point, for me, what's a shame here is the way the whole member thing is being approached. There were several iterations of The 4 (or Four) Seasons. Originally, there was Tommny DeVito (1962 -1971), Nick Massi (1962 - 1965), Frankie Valli (1962 - present) and Bob Gaudio (1962 - 1972). Then, Charlie Calello (1965) replaced Nick temporarily, Joe Long (1965 - 1975) replaced Charlie. The Seasons went to tour England in 1971 and hired Bob Grimm (1971) to replace Tommy. Bob elected to stay in England and was replaced by Demetri Callas (1971 - 1972). It started to get confusing then when other musicians were hired, but it's not definitive that these musicians were hired as official Seasons or just touring members. Then, around 1974, a new group was being proposed, by both Gaudio and Valli, to allow Valli to have a more focused solo career and be a sometime participant in this new group. These were the guys that recorded the albums, 'Who Loves You' and 'Helicon' - Lee Shapiro (1973 - 1980), Don Ciccone (1974 - 1979 and 1981 - 1983), John Paiva (1975 - 1977) and Gerry Polci (1973 - 1977, 1979 - 1982 and 1987 - 1990). Today, it's basically Frankie and touring musicians, the Four Seasons moniker being mainly used as a marketing tool. Bbrownlie (talk) 17:35, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You've got some of your dates wrong, Bbrownlie. 1960 is the more appropriate starting point, as that is when the band was formed, not 1962. And Tommy DeVito retired from The Four Seasons in (or around) April 1970, before Half & Half was released, and that was also in 1970, not 1971. And Gaudio retired from touring with the band the following year, which was 1971, not 1972. The sources you're getting the contrary from I'm aware of, but they're incorrect. It's impossible that DeVito was with the Seasons by the time Half & Half (1970) was released, because according to the liner notes of the 25th Anniversary Collection, he was already gone by that time. Classicalfan626 (talk) 17:46, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, it's been awhile. Yes, The 4 (or Four) Seasons most likely formed in 1960 as a performing unit first. My source for the dates I used was Rhino's 'Jersey Beat' set. I believe Rhino saw their start with the release of 'Sherry'. The same source for Tom DeVito's years. I agree that most sources reference 1970, but a few state he was performing as a Season in 1971. I'd go with 1970, but it makes me wonder. Bbrownlie (talk) 17:08, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Album Titles

I believe that all album titles should reflect, as best as one is able to key, the exact titles with all of their upper/lower case and punctuation adhered to. It makes me angry that anyone who is changing all the work I put in to keying any titles (I did The 4 [or Four] Seasons quite a while ago till someone thought I was too exact, I guess) as they are on the album covers thinks it's some standard or it's so much better to abbreviate and capitalize everything. What a ridiculous standard if it is one and what does it say about maintaining history in an encyclopedic format if it's all about dumbing down and simplifying everything down to some lowest common denominator. This is what some of the album covers actually say:
Sherry & 11 Others - The 4 Seasons
Big Girls Don't Cry and Twelve others... - The 4 Seasons
Dawn (Go Away) And 11 Other Great Songs - The 4 Seasons
Rag Doll Featuring Rag Doll and Ronnie and 10 Other Brand New Hit Songs - The 4 Seasons
entertain you - The 4 Seasons
Working My Way Back To You And More Great New Hits - The 4 Seasons
The 4 Seasons sing Ain't That A Shame and 11 others - The 4 Seasons
All New Recorded Live∗On Stage With The Four Seasons - The Four Seasons
Born To Wander Tender and soulful ballads [folk-flavored] - The 4 Seasons
Half & Half - The 4 Seasons Frankie Valli
The 4 Seasons Present frankie valli solo - Frankie Valli

Yeah, I'm probably being too persnickety but I'd rather have a go-to source be as accurate as possible even if it hurts the brains of some who want everything so standard it becomes sterile and void of value bordering on worthless. Apologies to anyone who's offended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbrownlie (talk • contribs) 21:53, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Joe Pesci?

No mention of Joe Pesci bringing them together.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:02, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

funnily enough, I came here just now to show someone else this tidbit (the group were on a tv nearby & it came up in conversation), & the info has disappeared from this article. it survives, however, with a citation, on joe pesci's wp entry- is that strong enough to add it in here?

"As a teenager, Pesci was friends with singers Frankie Valli (who is nine years his senior) and Tommy DeVito (who was 15 years his senior), and in 1959, at age 16, he helped introduce them to singer and songwriter Bob Gaudio, which led to the formation of the band The Four Seasons.[5] "

duncanrmi (talk) 23:10, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Changes to Chuck Wilson in Timeline

The Chuck Wilson of the Four Seasons was a drummer. He is not the musician of the same name who played jazz saxophone. I have switched him to be a drummer on the timeline, although I'm not sure how long he played for the Four Seasons or when he started. I do know that he was on the 1992 DVD performance of all their greatest hits, so I stuck him in the free space between Zoro and Polci for now. --EoLtalk 03:20, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Main photo

Surely the main photo should be the classic 1960s lineup, not Frankie Valli and a bunch of randoms in 2012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylarkingnz (talk • contribs) 08:58, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

I propose to merge John Paiva (musician) into this article. His article cites no reliable sources and I can't find any significant coverage to establish his notability. His only real claim to fame appears to be his membership of the Four Seasons and of The Happenings. The latter article, however, doesn't mention him and that band isn't quite as well known as the Four Seasons, so I think this article is a good target. What I essentially propose is simply turning John Paiva (musician) into a redirect to The Four Seasons (band)#Band members, as there's no sourced content to merge. Lennart97 (talk) 20:49, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Lennart97 (talk) 19:16, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Band Members section as of 2024

Hello all, I've tried to pitch in here whenever possible to update/verify the many members of the Four Seasons over the years. I noticed that some people have moved certain members to "touring only" and that there appear to have been various editing ideas regarding Bob Gaudio's membership in the band post-1971. I was thinking that this could be a place for us to discuss these "controversial" topics. Since the band didn't release many albums after 1975, I feel that everyone listed a "touring" member should be considered an actual (full, but not as in partnership/corporate ownership-level) member of the band, unless some served as substitutes? Also, regarding Bob Gaudio, shouldn't we list him through 1992 (the last/most recent Four Seasons album) but clarify that he stopped touring in 1971 (technically, he still owns 50% of the band too, so it could be something like "1960-present (not touring since 1971; not recording since 1992)" or "1960-1992 (not touring since 1971; still retains ownership share in the band, 1992-present)", etc. I'd love to hear others' thoughts about these ideas. Thanks!! EPBeatles (talk) 04:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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