Talk:Shieling/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 15:24, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:24, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Images are appropriately tagged.

• I had a look at the previous GA to see why it was failed; pinging Xx78900 in case they wish to add comments here. I see you've added a section on the structure, which is one of the main issues cited in the fail, so that's good to see. Before I go through the article text, can you say how you selected the cultural references for inclusion? Ideally we would have a secondary source about cultural references which would mention notable references, and those would be included in the article. Here it looks more like you've done an independent search, and are citing primary sources -- McBride, Thomas, and Burns, just glancing through, and perhaps others in that section; I don't think that's the right approach.

Pausing there for a reply and in case Xx78900 wants to comment. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:38, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

• Gosh. A preliminary reply: The English Heritage source is certainly a reliable secondary source with respect to shielings, but it doesn't cover the literary side. The literary coverage in "Legacy" is a subsidiary aspect of the article, and the section is doing no more than state that shielings are mentioned in various contexts, just as we might note that a Tolkien character was mentioned in a song or book by another author. I suggest we review the rest of the article, and if anything in "Legacy" is going beyond what we can fairly do with the sources named, we can either cut those things or seek further sources. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:30, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

  Sounds good; I'll go through the rest of the article and we can come back to this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:37, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

• Looking at File:Sheiling plans.svg, the diagrams themselves are unsourced, which I think is an issue, particularly given that the third one appears to have a doorless room.

• The file page does say "Redrawn from Shielings: Introductions to Heritage Assets, Historic England, Swindon, 2018"; moving this into the "Source" field now. The doorless "room" could well be a simple enclosure for animals; it is drawn as found in the original, where there are numerous similar examples.

  I missed that, but thanks for moving it into the source field. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:29, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

• Citing Fowlis for the lyric from Bothan Àirigh am Bràigh Raithneach is an example of going beyond what I think the secondary sources say; Cooper is citable for the "sexual experimentation", but unless Fowlis draws the connection, it's too close to synthesis to mention a reference to trysts in a lyric.

• Removed Fowlis.

• And can you tell what Cooper means by "sexual experiment"? It has a range of meanings, without much overlap with what the lyric seems to be referring to, which is a romantic place for an affair.

• Cooper certainly means "an opportunity to try out some sex while away from prying eyes down in the valley community" while up on the hill in the shieling. The mentions of "bothy of lovemaking" and "sexual experiment" are sufficient to establish that.

• What is a stack-stand?

• a small ditched and raised platform to build a haystack on". Added a ref for this.

That's all I have that is not in the "Legacy" section. Looking through "Legacy":

• The sentence about Mairi's Wedding appears to be unsourced.

• Added a ref.

• What makes the following reliable sources?
  • juliefowlis.com

• This is the musician's own website; she can be trusted to state honestly the words that she sings.

• • glasgowguide.co.uk

• I'd think it very unlikely that the Glasgow Guide would invent shieling lyrics, but since the work is by Robert Tannahill, citing his collected works directly now.

• The discussion of the use of "shieling" in Munro seems to be our interpretation of the source, rather than anything stated in it; and as fiction it seems a poor source anyway.

• Removed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:58, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Mike Christie: I've addressed all the comments so far from you and Xx78900. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:30, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Xx78900

Thanks for the ping @Mike Christie. I must say, overall I do think this article is much improved this time around. A few notes:

Lede

- I'm not sure what the protocols are for Wikiproject Scotland, but over on Wikiproject Ireland, the Irish translation of the word is required to be sourced in the opening sentence.

Added ref.

- No comma after hut.

Done.

- Is "lonely places" a bit editorial?

Edited.

- Scotland is wikilinked but not England (or northern England as the case may be?)

Removed the link.

- As is a running trend in my commentary on this article, I still think too much emphasis is put on shielings in folk song, poetry, and music; and think that a mention of them being common in such is enough, certainly for the lede.

Noted. However the lead is required to summarize the article's text.

- Is shieling singular used as the plural term? I think that's implied in the lede but doesn't appear so in the body.

Seems always to mean a single entity, even if more than one structure.

Etymology

- "The term shieling is Scottish" - Scottish as in gaelic, or Scottish as in English? Neither can be referred to as Scottish as far as I am aware (though I could be wrong).

Removed.

- Very inconsistent use of either italics, quotation marks, or neither to talk about words in this section. shieling in the first sentence, "shieling" comes from shiel in the third.

Edited.

- I think it should be mentioned that the Scottish gaelic term is unrelated, as much of the country was still gaelic speaking at the time of the first instance of shieling.

Removed.

Construction

- "Some authorities" MOS:WEASEL

Don't think so, but edited to be on the safe side.

- I'm not sure that Thomas Pennant needs as much description as he receives, particularly given the repetition of information at the base of the quote.

Removed the gloss.

- The quote spells shieling in a way not listed in the opening sentence

Added.

Usage

- "to have" -> "to allow"

Edited.

- "placed at the far end of the upland grazing land from the migrants's winter dwellings." I found this sentence confusing. Would you consider rewording it?

Edited.

- I would remove the comma after "remote areas"

No, a pair of commas brackets the "such as" phrase.

- I would say "or even later".

Done, but there are plenty of copy-editors who specialise in removing words like "even".

- Judging solely by the fact that "im" means butter in Irish, I'm going to guess that "gruthim" is Scottish Gaelic and should be in a {{lang}} template.

Added.

- "Northern England", the n is capitalised here, but not in the lede. I don't know which is correct, but it should be consistent.

Fixed.

- "along with" -> "often appearing alongside"

Edited.

- "have often" -> "have typically"

Done, but same comment as for "even".

Legacy

- Does the Roberton source use the word "preserve"? If not I would remove it.

Edited.

- I still believe that the Julie Fowlis note adds nothing of value.

Noted, and see above.

- "delicate tune" MOS:EDITORIAL

Removed.

- Would subheadings be appropriate to separate the songs form the buildings?

Added.

- The caption on the unconventional shieling seems odd. What makes a remote contemporary cottage a shieling, assuming no transhumance element?

It seems to be just Geograph's opinion, so removing the image.

- I think this section suffers from over-quotation, particularly when the songs' titles mention shieling but the quoted lyrics don't.

Trimmed.

General

- This article has inconsistent use of the Oxford comma. My preference is for inclusion, but when reviewing I accept either way provided its consistent.

Fixed, I believe.

Whether or not any of these are answered doesn't bother me, I'm not the reviewer, but I thought I'd offer my two-cents. Best of luck with the review, @Chiswick Chap! Xx78900 (talk) 19:05, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for the comments. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

More

I've looked through the edits made in response to Xx78900's comments, and for GA I have no problem with any of them, though like you I doubt that "even" and "typically" will survive. I still feel the "Legacy" section is a problem. A section like this should be in response to secondary source comments about the use of the word, or perhaps a source commenting how the old word has survived in certain songs, or is still known because of certain poems, or because certain buildings still carry the name. Without secondary sources discussing the usage, there's no reason to mention these. I think this subsection should be cut.

• Done.

A couple of spotchecks:

• "Ruins of shielings are abundant..." is cited to several dictionaries and such, but I don't see anything that covers the first part of the sentence. Am I missing something? For England the "Heritage Assets" source would work, but it doesn't really talk about Scotland as far as I can see.

• Cheape and the discussion in the first paragraph of Usage covers Scotland; repeated that ref, and added two more.

• The NI3 cite for the derivation is verified, but it's too close to the original phrasing: I know it's difficult with these formulaic phrasings but for example "probably akin" is, barring the abbreviation in the source, exactly what they have. Also, now I read this again, you have "from the Northern dialect Middle English forms" which makes it sound as though Middle English is a Northern dialect.

• Reworded.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:51, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Passing. I made a change to the phrasing for the NI3 quote; I think it was still not quite right, but if you disagree we can discuss. Either way it's not worth holding up GA. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:55, 7 September 2022 (UTC)