Talk:Scientology officials/Archive 1

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Note

Created, using sourced material from page, List of Scientologists. -- Cirt (talk) 22:14, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Removed info and sources

Per some comments from Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) [1], and wanting to be promptly responsive, I removed sourced info from entry, Jessica Feshbach, and also removed instances of source, Morton 2008. -- Cirt (talk) 00:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

  1. Trimmed entry on Feshbach, diff.
  2. Removed source, Morton 2008, diff.

-- Cirt (talk) 00:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Aaron Saxton

This is some kind of fork... As discussed previously at Talk:List of Scientologists/Archive 1#Aaron Saxton, Saxton cannot really have been a "senior official", whatever the sources that want to hype his status say. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 22:33, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

  1. That is covered in much more detail, at the article Aaron Saxton.
  2. It is backed up to multiple citations, both at this page and at the page on the individual.
  3. Quotations are included in the citations, in order to make it easier to verify to the secondary sources.
  4. He was a member of the Sea Org, a senior organization within the Scientology organization itself. And he was a senior member within the Sea Org, a member of the Commodore's Messenger Organization (CMO), a senior organization within Sea Org.

-- Cirt (talk) 22:47, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Same problem with Gerry Armstrong. These former members do not fit in a list with the founder, official spokespersons, directors, presidents, etcetera. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 22:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
They are all notable officials that served within the organization. -- Cirt (talk) 22:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Gerry Armstrong (activist) did some archival work - that does not make him an official. How old was he when he in 1980? This list is just inflating the significance of these people, that had been totally unnoticed before they left the cult. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 23:03, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
He is noteworthy both for his role in the organization within its elite group the Sea Org - and his actions after exiting the organization. -- Cirt (talk) 23:06, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
This is a BLP issue. You are including Armstrong in a list of Scientology officials, without any source stating that he was any kind of official. All that you have to support their inclusion that these guys were in Sea Org with over 3000 others, for $24 per week as pocket money. That must be way below the pay scale for a cult official. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 23:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Are you attempting to dispute that members of the Sea Org are officials within the organization? -- Cirt (talk) 23:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
There are hundreds of thousands of "officials" volunteering at sports events. They are not notable for an encyclopedia. Are you claiming that everybody in Sea Org fits in this list? /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 22:26, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Nope, only those with existing Wikipedia articles, as well. -- Cirt (talk) 19:30, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

purpose?

What was the purpose of spinning off a separate list? This just duplicates List of Scientologists, since all current officials are obviously also Scientologists. By maintaining two separate lists, there's the danger that there's less attention paid to one. --Rob (talk) 22:16, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Removed it from List of Scientologists, now it is only here. :) -- Cirt (talk) 19:30, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
So, some of the most famous Scientologists aren't listed as such.  :( --Rob (talk) 06:58, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Feel free to edit the page, List of Scientologists, as you see fit, adding members directly into the main list itself, now that there is no longer a specific subsection. -- Cirt (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
This page, however, has been determined by the community to be independently notable and noteworthy of keeping. :) -- Cirt (talk) 07:05, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I won't waste my time editing two redundant overlapping lists. I'll let you and others do that. Eventually the two pages will be merged back together into one, and all such efforts at duplication will have been a total waste. BTW, I'm still waiting for a *single* citation (reliable 3rd party source) that proves a person is a signficant official with teh CoS and not a Scientologist. Just one. --Rob (talk) 07:34, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
"Examples" aside, members of a purported belief system and officials of an organization should not be mixed together, as if they were the same thing, when they are not. -- Cirt (talk) 09:19, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
  • You have no examples, which is why you're putting them aside. But, I'm glad you're not naming people with contentious claims, without sources, which is a violation of WP:BLP.
  • Let's for the sake of arguement, assume there are official positions in Scientology which are open to non-Scientologists. If such positions exist (as they do in some religions) then those positions would be an entirely different sort, belonging in an entirely different list. Scientology does have people work on it's behalf who are not Scientologists, such as lawyers, and investigators. Some probably work exclusive for Scientology. I wouldn't consider them "officials", despite they may do "official work". But, whatever you call them, they do not belong with those currently on this page. They are an entirely distinct category of position, that shouldn't be mixed in with what's currently on this page. We could make a List of non-Scientologists working for Scientology (not sure of the name).
  • Suggesting somebody is an official of a religion for which they don't beleive in, is a potentially defamatory claim, which requires strong sourcing to back it up. You're basically making that claim implicitly, when you list somebody as a Scientology official, but not as a Scientologist. Unfortunately, it's hard to monitor such sourcing, when a claim is made implicitly .
  • You have to see what people on this page have in common Everyone has actively claimed Scientology to be the truth, and promoted it, officially, publicly. They haven't just performed technical functions for the Church. They didn't just hold an official position, but they held an *important* position of authority in the Church, or they should not be included in this list (they have authority over other in the Church and/or they have authority to speak for the Church). --Rob (talk) 10:23, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I am making no such "claims". Everything on this page is backed up by multiple secondary sources. I have not added any such violations as you suggest, and will not do so. Please do not suggest again that I would, thanks. -- Cirt (talk) 15:32, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I was referring to what you said on the AFD, which is also covered by the WP:BLP, when you named people, but gave no sources. In that discussion, you indicated the conversation would continue here. I'd quote what you said, but that would be a violation of WP:BLP. Anyways, care to respond to any of the other points raised? Anyhow, were you intending to remove Category:Scientology officials from being a subcategory of Category:Scientologists to be consistant. --Rob (talk) 16:06, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 Done, I have so removed the category. -- Cirt (talk) 17:36, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Backing off from this page I had created, going to allow others to have some input. I am glad the community consensus was Keep. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 17:45, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

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Hugh Urban quotation

@Graywalls: I have reverted your edits related to the Hugh Urban quote. Yes, it is directly supported in the cited source. Here is a photograph of page 131 with the quote circled.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 02:40, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposal: Rename this article to Scientology officials

This article is no longer simply a list. I propose renaming it from List of Scientology officials to Scientology officials. Discuss. Grorp (talk) 04:32, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

What about simply Scientology official? DjembeDrums (talk) 17:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't understand. It's pretty clearly plural. North8000 (talk) 18:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Changed without prior discussion to Church of Scientology officials

Well, it looks like someone unilaterally decided to rename Scientology officials to Church of Scientology officials without any prior discussion or consensus... as if the former name wasn't clear enough. I wonder what kind of "Scientology officials" there are that aren't part of the Church of Scientology?   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 20:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

An article rename of this magnitude really needs prior discussion. As far as the rename itself, I'm sort of neutral. North8000 (talk) 20:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
There's also the issue that staff of the Scientology front groups can be, and have been, included in the list but aren't recognizable as "Church of Scientology" officials. Changing the name changes the focus of content. I object to the name change.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Do you mean in the list of examples of officials? All of them were employees of the Church of Scientology. The list has the heading “This is a list of current and former officials of the Church of Scientology.” The heading was written by you. Cambial — foliar❧ 07:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

@Cambial Yellowing: As is mentioned in this article, as well as Church of Scientology and List of Scientology organizations, the Church of Scientology conglomerate includes many entities that are not named with "Church of Scientology" in their corporate title. (And you know that.) Their commonality is Scientology, authorship, ownership, management, personnel, policies and procedures, and the financial ties that bind them all. Individuals who run the Sea Org, Religious Technology Center, Author Services, or any of the Scientology front groups, are all "Scientology officials", but they are not all "Church of Scientology officials".[a] Scientologists and the public (neither of whom know any better), tend to employ the name "Church of Scientology" to include the entire conglomerate, but it is not technically correct—hence why I tend to add "network" or "conglomerate" after it when I mean to convey "the set of all those organizations" and not just the service organizations which have "Church of Scientology" in their corporate names.

The purpose of that edit of mine, the one you linked to, was intended to fill out a list article into a full article with prose content and context, not be careful about the nuances of "Church of Scientology". Even so, the first several of my mentions of CofS were clearly noted as "Church of Scientology network" (conglomerate), whereas your choice of new name for this article (Church of Scientology officials) doesn't convey the same distinction. The name Church of Scientology officials isn't as broad or all-encompassing as Scientology officials. My change led to the uncontroversial renaming from List of Scientology officials to Scientology officials. Even so, I announced my intent, and no one commented for over 3 months before I went ahead and did the rename (move); not to suggest 3 months is desirable, but to emphasize that no one contested the idea.

Had you started a discussion, or even announced in advance your desire to change the name of this article, these matters would have come to light beforehand. See WP:BEFOREMOVING and WP:Requested moves § Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 05:48, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

You claim that Scientologists and the public (neither of whom know any better), tend to employ the name "Church of Scientology" to include the entire conglomerate, but it is not technically correct. I disagree with your claim it is not “technically correct”. The Church of Scientology, per its own article and WP:COMMONNAME, refers to the entire group of interconnected corporate entities, RTC, CST, blah blah. It’s not merely to refer to one specific legal entity. The transparent financial shell game/fraud the organisation likes to play at to try to evade responsibility for its criminal activities, human trafficking etc, is not one we need to pander to here. Scientologists and the public and reliable sources tend to treat the group of corporate entities as all “Church of Scientology”; it’s appropriate for us to do the same. Cambial — foliar❧ 05:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Cambial Yellowing You seem to be arguing against the rename that you just did. North8000 (talk) 15:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
I don’t follow your line of thinking. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:48, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Scratch that. I misread. North8000 (talk) 16:54, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm mildly opposed to the rename and more strongly opposed to how it was done. A major change with not a bit of discussion. On the "mildly opposed" a part of my rationale is the same as Grorp's. And I disagree that it is the most commonly used name, which is clearly just "Scientology". Hence the naming of the top level articles. A part of it I would think that you would be sympathetic to.....there are arguments on what it is; amongst the many possibilities is a business and a cult. The move that you made weighs on that argument on the side of it being a religion. North8000 (talk) 17:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Scientology is usually used to refer to - per our article - the movement/religion/new religious movement/scam/whatever. It's not a physical thing but certain ideas and a few people who follow those ideas to more or less extent. The Church of Scientology is a specific legal entity (or group of entities), which owns buildings, pays water bills, files lawsuits (and how!), publishes books etc. The officials work for those legal entities. As an analogy, in common parlance the pope is referred to as the "head of the Catholic Church", we don't usually say "head of Catholicism". In addition, there's lots of non-CoS splinter groups (the so-called Free Zone) that have their own "officials"; we thus avoid any ambiguity. That's my thought process. I don't consider it a major change; we're still referring to the same officials, merely narrowing the scope of application for clarity and to avoid ambiguity. Cambial — foliar❧ 20:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I think that those are some good rationales and analysis for the change that you made. On the second point of my post, IMO changing the name of an article which has active editors is certainly something that should be discussed first. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:00, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Not only is the Free Zone FRINGE, but I haven't once read a news story about a Free Zone "official". The word "Scientology" is trademarked by Religious Technology Center, the keeper of the trademarks and service marks. Even "Scientologist" is a "collective membership mark indicating membership in a church and church membership services of the affiliated Scientology churches and missions" (which excludes all Free Zone activity). [2] Despite the desires of a handful of people who want to practice Scientology outside of the purview of the Church of Scientology network, they have no legal right to use the term. We in Wikipedia don't need to cater to those beyond the periphery of Scientology by covering their freezone or "independent scientology" activities any more than due weight warrants (which is very little). And lastly, there is unlikely to be any ambiguity since this article starts out "The Church of Scientology network..."

If the word "Scientology" only meant the beliefs, then "The Aims of Scientology" written by Hubbard in 1965 wouldn't make any sense. He clearly is using the word "Scientology" to also mean the organization by using "us" and "we", and the context in which Hubbard uses "Scientology". He means the all of it, beliefs, organization, members, staff, everything.

  • Excerpt #1: "Scientology welcomes any individual of any creed, race or nation."
  • Excerpt #2: "Scientology does not owe its help. We have done nothing to cause us to propitiate." [3]

I tried to figure out which phrase was most used by news reporters: "Scientology officials" or "Church of Scientology officials". A manual search matched the results of my questioning an AI search engine—which I asked to tell me which phrase is more used by news reporters; it responded that both variations are valid, neither is inherently more accurate, though the shorter version is likely more common. That's what I found in my manual searches.

Searches of "Scientology officials" and "Church of Scientology officials" brought up many news stories. The higher-class of news organization tended to use "Scientology officials" (and infrequently "church officials" mixed in). They did not, however, flip back and forth using "Scientology officials" and "Church of Scientology officials" (they used one form or the other). A search for "Church of Scientology officials" yielded a lesser grade of media, such as The Sun, Pagesix, DailyMail, People, LA Mag, Business Insider. I thought that was interesting.

Those which I found with clear use of "Scientology officials" included: 1997 New York Times, 2001 The News Media & The Law, 2011 The New Yorker, 2013 BBC News, 2013 France24, 2015 New York Times, 2023 AP News, 2023 RollingStone, 2024 Tampa Bay Times, 2024 LA Times

Then there is the usage in Wikipedia. I checked for titles of Wikipedia articles which included "Church of Scientology" versus only "Scientology". Those with "Church of" are few—mostly titled lawsuits, a specific organization name, or part of a book title (none of which can be changed or second-guessed). Examples: Headley v. Church of Scientology International, Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization, The Church of Scientology: A History of a New Religion. Outside of that, there are but two articles named with "Church of Scientology" in the title: Church of Scientology editing on Wikipedia, List of trademarks owned by the Church of Scientology and its affiliates.

On the other hand, there are numerous articles with just "Scientology" in the title—not specifically meaning "the ideas, the movement", but implying "Church of Scientology" or, rather, the organization(s). As examples, these include: Scientology front groups, Scientology as a business, Scientology controversies, Scientology and law, Scientology status by country, Tax status of Scientology in the United States, Scientology and the Internet, Timeline of Scientology, Scientology and celebrities, Scientology in Germany, Scientology and psychiatry, Scientology ethics and justice, Scientology and sexual orientation, Scientology and abortion, Scientology and gender, and List of Scientology organizations.

To recap: I've covered that "Scientology officials" is more common in news coverage (common parlance), Hubbard intended "Scientology" to also mean the organizations, Wikipedia article titling also intends "Scientology" to mean the organizations, and the Free Zone doesn't hardly matter. That should be enough for today.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 22:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE refers to an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views [my emphasis]. In other words, it means a specific view, opinion, claim or idea about a thing. The Free Zone refers to things in the physical world; it doesn't refer merely to a view, opinion, or idea. For the purposes of Wikipedia, and the guideline to which you link, views or claims can be fringe; things that exist, such as people or organisations, are not "fringe". If we were to label things in the world as "fringe", for Wikipedia purposes, because those who are part of them hold fringe views, or are a minority group, every Scientology article on Wikipedia would be considered FRINGE, because 99.999% of the population thinks of Scientology ideas as a ridiculous joke used to entrap the stupid, or, more likely, never thinks of them at all.
I refer to ambiguity in the article title, which is what is at issue. The opening sentence clearing up ambiguity after a link is followed by the reader does not resolve the problem of the ambiguous title. An opening sentence phrased as you point out - "The Church of Scientology network..." - ought to be reflected in the article title.
The Church of Scientology website is an unreliable source. But regardless, whether those who believe in Scientology, but are not part of Church of Scientology, have no legal right to use the term is irrelevant. They do use it.
You claim that [if] the word "Scientology" only meant the beliefs, then "The Aims of Scientology" written by Hubbard in 1965 wouldn't make any sense. Hubbard's writings, being the incoherent ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic, do not make any sense in any circumstances. One's interpretation of his intended meaning for a particular word has no bearing on the reality that he wrote bullshit.
There is no dispute that Hubbard intended Scientology to only ever refer to groups under his control - Church of Scientology. He no doubt never intended external groups to exist, wanting all profits to accrue to him. Hubbard is not a reliable source, including (in fact, especially) about himself and the movement he created. Thankfully, we pay no attention to a dead crackpot's desires in writing Wikipedia.
Boolean name searches are not relevant here. The title of the article is not a specific "name", but rather refers to a topic. Within the subject of Scientology, the topic might be referred to as Church of Scientology...: "executives"; "management"; "leadership"; "high-level employees"; "clergy"; "directors"; "administrators"; "officers"; "agents"; "representatives"; "bureaucrats"; "supervisors" and many other terms. I have no view as to which is preferable; "officials" is fine, if presumptuous. But it does seem important to be clear to what organisation these bureaucrats belong: Church of Scientology. Cambial — foliar❧ 23:56, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
In Kent 1999,[1] Stephen A. Kent flips back and forth using "Scientology" to mean the idea/religion and to mean the organization(s). Kent never once uses the term "Church of Scientology" except when mentioning a specific corporate entity.
In Urban 2011,[2] Hugh Urban uses "Church of Scientology" and "Scientology" interchangeably to refer to the organizations.

Today, what we call "Scientology" is in reality a remarkably complex network of ostensibly independent but clearly interconnected corporate entities. ... As such, Scientology is perhaps best understood not simply as "a religion" but rather as an extremely complex "multi-faceted transnational organization," of which religion is one—but only one—aspect. [2]: 131 

  ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm still a weak oppose to the move that was made. On one hand "Scientology" is the common name, and overall it is best titled "Scientology", and it really refers to the amalgamation described in Grorp's last post. On the other hand, from a precision standpoint the specific entity that these people are officials of is the "Church of Scientology" North8000 (talk) 12:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Except there is no entity titled "Church of Scientology". Just as you cannot sue the "Sea Org" because it isn't a legal entity, neither can you sue the "Church of Scientology". It doesn't exist in fact (per the law); it only exists as a concept. That idea is that "Church of Scientology" is an alias used to mean the conglomerate of all Scientology corporations and non-corporations. The same can be said of the word "Scientology" without the "Church of". Both are concepts; neither are entities; and both convey the meaning of the conglomeration of all Scientology organizations—lock, stock, and barrel.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:20, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
The Church of Scientology does exist: we define its common meaning at Church of Scientology. The financial shell game played by Scientology lawyers need not concern us. The group of corporate entities that make up the organisation is what the officials that are the subject of this article are officials of. Cambial — foliar❧ 07:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Grorp, it sounds like I was mistaken. I thought that "Church of Scientology" was a legal entity and their main legal entity. North8000 (talk) 14:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
North8000, I didn't realize you didn't know that. It is now covered at List of Scientology organizations § The term "Church of Scientology".   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. I didn't know that that article existed and now added it to my watchlist. In view of that overwhelming amount of information, I think that I need to plead "temporary ignorance" on that aspect until I can absorb and learn it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not seeing any genuine attempt at neutrally or reasonably engaging in a dialogue to resolve the issue of having renamed this article without any prior discussion, and in spite of the protest of other editors.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 07:22, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Notes

  1. ^ As an example, attorney Moxon (an OTVIII) used to work for the Guardian's Office, a separate corporation, and now hangs his own shingle as a lawyer even though his only client is Scientology. Gee, do we classify him under "Former", or "Current, or leave him out altogether"?

References

  1. ^ Kent, Stephen A. (1999). "Scientology -- Is this a Religion?". Marburg Journal of Religion. 4 (1). University of Marburg: 1–56. doi:10.17192/mjr.1999.4.3754. Although some social scientists insist that Scientology is a religion, the more appropriate position to take is that the organization is a multi-faceted transnational corporation that has religion as only one of its many components.
  2. ^ a b Urban, Hugh B. (2011). The Church of Scientology: A History of a New Religion. Princeton University Press. ISBN 9780691146089.
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