Talk:Samantha Lewthwaite/Archive 1

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Archive 1

BLP applies

There is a lot of conjecture based upon from unreliable sources such as the Daily mail, and Daily mirror, based upon rumours from twitter accounts, unknown sources, and speculation. I have put a note one the WP:BLPN about this and her first husbands articles. This article does need to conform to WP:BLP guidelines.Martin451 (talk) 07:53, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

With respect it shows how much you know about journalism, the DM is the gold-standard when it comes to research irrespective of it's politics, also! the BBC and Guardian have to be balanced with other sources due to their cultural left-wing bias.Twobells (talk) 22:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I hope you are joking about the DM being the gold-standard.[1] The DM claims that she was at the Nairobi attack based upon a twitter feed, and a witness claiming a veiled white woman was shouting orders in Arabic. According to the BBC link below "Whitehall officials continue to advise caution about reports linking her to the attack," Martin451 (talk) 08:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I am currnetly trying to match the article to the sources cited. Any help would be appreciated. Hallucegenia (talk) 08:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I if do it, I am likely to rip the article apart. The Mail and Mirror are not good sources for things like this (and CSM seems to be copying them).Martin451 (talk) 08:17, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

BLP applies. If you think that the article needs to be ripped apart, then go ahead.Hallucegenia (talk) 08:33, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

The BBC have now reported the possible link between Lewthwaite and the Nairobi attack, which I've added. Whether or not Lewthwaite was involved - and has actually been killed, as some sources are now reporting - it was clearly about time she was split off to a separate page from Lindsay one. Nick Cooper (talk) 08:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed that the Daily Mail, The Sun, The Star and The Daily Mirror are not suitable sources for this article. I don't entirely doubt the factual accuracy of the information they provide, but would prefer to see it sourced from more reliable news agencies. I have access to other newspaper archives and will cross reference the tabloids' info to the broadsheets and change the references if/where applicable. Blackberry Sorbet 12:51, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

There's quite a bit of coverage by the BBC [2] but even here it is conjecture. We should make it clear that this is speculative if we don't hold off completely. Jason from nyc (talk) 17:58, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I have taken an axe to the Westgate Mall section, on the grounds of WP:BLP If you disagree with me, then feel free to revert, but please then discuss it here.Hallucegenia (talk) 18:49, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the pruning; although it is the Westgate mall which brought Lewthwaite back into the spotlight, the 2011-2012 events are really what defines her notability. Blackberry Sorbet 18:56, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I've re-edited the pruned section slightly, one reason being that the statement made about her in the lead needed to be backed up by a statement in the main text from the same source. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:03, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

PS: I've also removed the apparently erroneous suggestion that "the Kenyan government" named Lewthwaite as a suspect - this source refers to "a British woman", not necessarily her. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:14, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Refdump

Peter Taylor: British woman 'among Nairobi militants'

Place of birth

There is some confusion over the place of Lewthwaite's birth; some sources say Banbridge, Co. Down, while others say Aylesbury, Bucks. The Times (29 February 2012), which I have cited in the article, states: "Ms Lewthwaite was born shortly before Christmas 1983, the daughter of a British soldier from a military family. Her mother had grown up in the market town of Banbridge, Co Down, and married Andrew Lewthwaite while he was serving in Northern Ireland. They lived in Banbridge before moving to Aylesbury, where Samantha, the youngest of three children, was born. The Lewthwaites moved briefly back to Northern Ireland, where Samantha's father worked as a lorry driver, before returning to the Home Counties." Blackberry Sorbet 13:03, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

To add, The Belfast Telegraph (6 April 2012) states: "After leaving Banbridge, Lewthwaite moved back to England, where she was born, along with her Ulster mother Christine and father Andrew, who had served as a soldier." Blackberry Sorbet 13:46, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Also The Guardian (16 July 2005): "The couple had their first child, Abdullah, last July. Later they moved south to Aylesbury, where Ms Lewthwaite had been born and educated and where her closest relatives still live." Blackberry Sorbet 09:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

A Samantha Lewthwaite (or variants) is not in the England and Wales births database for 1983 or 1984 (being born in December 1983 she could have been registered in January 1984). There are also no babies born called (anyname) Lewthwaite with Allen as the mother's maiden name. This suggests that she was NOT born in England or her birth wasn't registered properly. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:15, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, that would seem fairly conclusive, Barney. There are as many secondary sources stating Banbridge as there are stating Aylesbury, but if she is not registered in E&W then the balance of probability falls to NI. I will change the article to reflect this in the current edit I am making and add references. Blackberry Sorbet 10:20, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I was quite interested to know where we obtained her birth date, but having found the article from the Belfast Telegraph that's currently ref 1, I see it's mentioned in there. It has no direct reference to her being born in Northern Ireland, so you'll probably need to check their birth records just to be certain. It's also probably a good idea to add a link to the Telegraph as we now have it here. Paul MacDermott (talk) 10:55, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, I've added the url to that reference. Didn't have it before as I'm using the archived copies of the print editions. Blackberry Sorbet 11:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

No worries, I'll have a look around a bit later and see if I can find a few others. Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:11, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

International arrest warrant

Have added a sentence about her arrest warrant issued today by Interpol. Usually I tend to hold off editing anything that's under construction, but thought this was something important. When the rewrite is finished I'll look around for the url links to go with some of the articles, but that can wait till the editing's complete. Paul MacDermott (talk) 14:42, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I will need to look back through the archives but I have a very strong recollection that the Red Notice was issued at least a year ago. This has the hallmarks of a BBC journo reading Wikipedia, seeing the Interpol Red Notice mentioned in our lede, and putting out a news item to catch up with us! The Interpol 'wanted' page has been updated in the last 12 hours though - they previously had no photographs. As I said, I'll check back on last year's newspapers and see what turns up. Blackberry Sorbet 15:53, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

The Red Notice was issued in July 2012. Although an Interpol "alert" (no further description that I can find yet) had been issued in March 2012, the first mention of a Red Notice is in the The Mail on Sunday: "Interpol is to issue a worldwide arrest warrant for fugitive British terror suspect Samantha Lewthwaite after police discovered vital new evidence on a computer left in her Kenyan hideout. The 'red notice' puts her on its 'most wanted' list and is an urgent request to more than 200 police forces to arrest her." (Jones, Barbara; Craven, Nick. 22 July 2012."7/7 bomber's widow put on world's 'most wanted' list." The Mail on Sunday p.19.) Blackberry Sorbet 16:03, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Interesting that Interpol's press release implies that the Red Notice is new also. Maybe they noticed the 80,000+ hits they got on their Lewthwaite wanted page in the last 24 hours! Blackberry Sorbet 16:08, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

A journo using Wikipedia as a source. What is the world coming to, I wonder. Interestingly, the story was breaking news on their website when I added it this afternoon, and is currently their lead item. Paul MacDermott (talk) 19:26, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

So are Interpol news releases (this one[3] on the issuance of the Red Notice) considered a primary source, or fair to use as sources here (perhaps even if primary, given secondary and/or tertiary sources)? Given the current lack of URLs in cites here, this would be at least one Web-accessible and presumably reliable source on this topic. Dwpaul (talk) 01:02, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

As noted above, the Interpol press release doesn't specify when the Red Notice was issued. The Red Notice has been in effect since at least July 2012: it was specifically reported 12 & 23 July 2012 by The Daily Mail, 24 July 2012 by the Huddersfield Daily Examiner, 21 April 2013 by The Sun, for example. I saw it on their website several days ago, which is how I knew to find it and add the information to the article. This appears to be a case of Wikipedia driving the news cycle: this page has had over 140,000 hits in the last 3 days. Neither the news media, which has been chock full o' Lewthwaite this week, nor Interpol mentioned the Red Notice until the day AFTER it was added to the this article's lede. It doesn't take too much imagination to see that traffic driven to Interpol's wanted page from here (Interpol's website informs users that it collects "the Internet address of the website from which you linked directly to our site and the pages you visit") and inquiries made by news agencies could be behind the big fanfare and re-announcement of a year old Red Notice. Knowing, as I do, how long that Red Notice has been sat on Interpol's website, I'm actually quite disgusted that the media have been pushing this as a new, breaking development in the hunt for Lewthwaite. Blackberry Sorbet 08:15, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

It was clearly Interpol itself that publicised the red notice to the media, with its press release on 26 September - and that is more likely to be a response to the mall attack, rather than feeding off us. You can't really blame the media for picking up on the press release, even if the notice was already in existence before then. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:59, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

this article from the Telegraph from 29 February mentions an interpol alert.Martin451 (talk) 09:33, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

The citations from the Mail on Sunday and Daily Mirror have now been removed as those newspapers are not usually considered sufficiently reliable sources, especially when dealing with living people. But, that leaves open the question of when this "Red Alert" was issued. Was it on 26 September when Interpol issued their press release, or was it in fact, as the Mail on Sunday implied (note: "..is to issue...", not "...has issued..."), some months earlier? If the latter, we need a good source for that information. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:40, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

"Natalie Webb"

Given she has used that name at various times, should we add it to the opening sentence and infobox? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I considered this on an earlier edit, too. But I couldn't decide - on ethical grounds - whether to include the alias or not, given it was also a real person's identity which had been stolen. I'll go with the consensus, whatever that turns out to be. Blackberry Sorbet 14:43, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I too think there are ethical concerns here. At the moment we are repeating many personal details of Ms Webb, including full name, date of birth, occupation, county of residence. I suggest we drop the middle name and location from the article (accepting they will still be there in the history). Hallucegenia (talk) 07:23, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I think your revised wording, removing some of those details, is OK. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:14, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:Converts to Islam from Christianity

As my edit to add her previous faith as Roman Catholicism due to her family was reverted, Lewthwaite should not yet be in this category. It would require a source that her family raised her as such and/or was baptised. Indiasummer95 (talk) 18:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Why not move it to Category:Converts to Islam as we're not sure exactly which religion she converted from. Paul MacDermott (talk) 18:26, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Why not find a reference to her previous religion? Blackberry Sorbet 18:36, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

"Although born a Christian, Lewthwaite became more and more interested in Islam." (Marsden, Sam (25 September 2013). "Quiet Home Counties girl who now tops list of terrorism suspects". The Daily Telegraph (London)) Blackberry Sorbet 18:40, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't sure if we had a reference that specifically identified her as a Christian who converted to Islam, but as we have then no need to do anything. Good article, btw. Paul MacDermott (talk) 19:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I previously changed the category from Category:Converts to Islam from Protestantism to Category:Converts to Islam from Christianity because I haven't seen a source which gave a specific denomination for her. Her mother is widely reported to be a Roman Catholic, but her father's denomination isn't mentioned, and nor is Samantha's. I will have a rummage through the old reports to see if anything is mentioned, but so far all I've seen are phrases like that quoted above: "born Christian", "raised Christian" etc. Blackberry Sorbet 19:15, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Raised Christian is meaningless in this. Unless she has self-identified as a Christian at some point or said she converted from Christianity or something similar then we should not claim she used to be one. Being born to Christian parents and dragged to church at a young age does not make one a Christian.Martin451 (talk) 20:58, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

So change it. Blackberry Sorbet 21:04, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Sherafiyah

Her use of the name Sherafiyah is mentioned in the lede and infobox, but nowhere else in the article. I think we need to say something about it somewhere. If known, the sort of things we could add include when she first adopted the name, whether it has a specific meaning, etc. Any thoughts? Paul MacDermott (talk) 14:19, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources seem to disagree here. Some, such as The Scotsman, Evening Standard and Catholic Online suggest she adopted the name Sherafiyah when she converted to Islam at 17. Others, including The Guardian and Daily Telegraph mention she and lindsay using the names Asmantara and Jamal when they married in 2002. Paul MacDermott (talk) 15:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Sky News investigation

Today, The Telegraph, The Independent and other sources are reporting a Sky News investigation that appears to contradict information in this article concerning her laptop that was found at her house in Mombassa. This article reports the hard drive having been removed, although sources today are reporting information found on the hard drive and a flash drive. Any thoughts on how to update this. Paul MacDermott (talk) 12:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

As I recall from reading the reports at the time, which were themselves based on information provided by Kenya Police, a second laptop was siezed at the home of Musa Hussein Abdi's ex-wife. If Kenya Police sought at the time to withold certain facts (which they have form for - eg, not announcing an arrest warrant had been issued for several months) it is also possible that this new item is the same laptop they originally said had been smashed. I'll have to go back and re-read the newspaper archives, see what I can find. I have a feeling that the newspaper reports which gave the most detailed info about the laptop/laptops were in the Mail and the Mirror and so I couldn't use them. Blackberry Sorbet 13:01, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

That explanation makes sense, and the information we have is what was being reported at the time, so until today our article has been reflecting the available details. I found a Telegraph article from March 2012 which mentions the laptop being smashed and having had its hard drive removed if we need an online source. Paul MacDermott (talk) 13:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

"The computer was recovered a day after the botched plot with its screen smashed and hard drive removed." (Daily Mirror 1 March 2012)
"The laptop was said to have been recovered with its screen smashed and hard drive removed." (Daily Telegraph 1 March 2012)
"Officers discovered a smashed laptop computer with the hard drive removed." (The Times 3 March 2012)
"Just before Lewthwaite went on the run with 500 bomb fuses and a bundle of US banknotes, she was staying at the home of [Nassim] Salim's mother in Kisauni, an impoverished district. Police found the Briton's laptop at this address, which featured a photo of Lewthwaite, her three children, aged about eight, six and two, and a "mixed race" man of African and European descent." (Sunday Times 4 March 2012)
"Several days later police raided a coastal villa rented by a woman and man with English accents. They discovered ammunition and a smashed laptop computer. The woman using Ms Lewthwaite's identity was reported yesterday to have also visited the Mombasa home of a former wife of Mohammed Saddiq Odeh, who is serving a life sentence in America for masterminding the simultaneous bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, in which more than 200 people were killed." (The Times 5 March 2012)
"Scotland Yard experts have recovered e-mails stored on her smashed laptop computer" (The Times 7 March 2012)
"A laptop that Lewthwaite left at the home of a friend in a Mombasa slum contains about 50 family photos that provide the first real insight into her life since Lindsay's death... Images on the abandoned laptop show her soon after giving birth to a third child." (Sunday Times 11 March 2012)
"INTERPOL is to issue a worldwide arrest warrant for fugitive British terror suspect Samantha Lewthwaite after police discovered vital new evidence on a computer left in her Kenyan hideout...The hard drive also contained a cache of pictures showing her wearing vest tops with her auburn hair hanging loose, and which betray a warped obsession with her own image...In other shots, Lewthwaite - who grew up in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire - is seen for the first time with her youngest child, born last summer." (Mail on Sunday 22 July 2012) [These are the same photographs which are currently being re-touted as new news.]

The reports of hard drive smashed/hard drive searched are conflicting. I'd venture that there is only one laptop, and that the earliest reports that the hdd had been removed were due either to deliberate witholding of information by the authorities in order not to compromise the investigation, or a mistake. Suggested rewording along the lines of, "Initial reports indicated that the hard drive had been removed but etc..."? Blackberry Sorbet 13:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

ok, thanks for getting back to me on this. I'll do some work on it a bit later on. Might also have a go at addressing the previous point about her name. Paul MacDermott (talk) 16:01, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Have dine a couple of updates, but please feel free to revert or change anything you disagree with. Paul MacDermott (talk) 18:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

BBC documentary

Don't know how I missed this: "Adam Wishart is making a programme for BBC1 about Samantha Lewthwaite." Blackberry Sorbet 13:50, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Killed in Ukraine?

The Daily Mail Online is saying the Russian media is making this claim (although I couldn't find any confirmation of such a claim being made at the RT website).

Daily Mail Online link KevinOKeeffe (talk) 00:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Only tabloids are reporting this. 107.1.187.200 (talk) 06:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It's been widely reported, and is notable for being a rumour, and should be reported as such. St Anselm (talk) 06:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

At least it's being reported in more reliable media now. We shouldn't use Daily Mail as a source for this article as the BLP rules apply, even if she is recently deceased. This is Paul (talk) 16:19, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

In some other sources, the rumours are being dismissed as false. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Alumni Status- SOAS, University of London

Someone with a history of article vandalism with an unsigned SOAS IP address 195.195.176.1 removed all references to Lewthwaithes ties to SOAS, University of London . I have corrected this. She is certainly a SOAS alumnus and attended the school for some time- either 2 months or 2 years, thus meeting the OED definition of an alumnus. There are also ample sources supporting this point of contention from respectable news outfits- http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/white-widow-samantha-lewthwaite-wanted-by-interpol-1.1870005 , http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/10339244/Samantha-Lewthwaite-QandA-What-next-for-the-White-Widow.html , http://www.news.com.au/world/how-the-8216white-widow8217-samantha-lewthwaite-was-obsessed-with-islam-as-a-schoolgirl/story-fndir2ev-1226729144705.

Any changes to this article deleting said references are agenda-driven and likely come from SOAS management. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Encycjwp (talk • contribs) 16:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

This seems buried in the article

Lewthwaite gave birth to a third child in 2009 but the father was not named on the birth certificate.[34][40] She is reported to have moved to the north of England then later to have disappeared with her children, and was believed to be in hiding in Tanzania or Somalia.[41][42]

This seems buried in the article. How can a high-profile terrorism suspect in one of the most surveilled countries in the world just up and disappear? Viriditas (talk) 01:17, 2 February 2016 (UTC)