Talk:Roy L. Dennis

Birth and death years

Verified RD's vital dates in a news article, http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/obituaries/2003437994_tullisobit19.html (the right answer was apparently '61'-'78). Fixed. Also mother's name was Florence, not Francais, according to this article. 24.116.168.239 06:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

He's birth 1964, died 1980 (see Find a grave site). GoodDay 21:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I can't find the 'Find a grave' source, also there's conflicting dates on other sources. The Tv character verison of Rocky, has the grave marking 1964-1980. I've put 'question marks' beside the dates, as there's conflicting sources. GoodDay 21:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

When loosely basing a fictional character on an actual person, there are good legal (and moral) reasons for giving the fictional character other birth and death years than the actual person. As for "Find A Grave" (not that it is a reputable source), it currently lists the years as 1961-1978. The obituary of Roy's mother linked by 24.116.168.239 above also gives the years as 1961 and 1978. I don't think question marks are needed unless someone can link to reputable sources that indicate other years. --Bwiki (talk) 05:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Picture

Can someone sort out the caption to the picture? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.44.195 (talk) 22:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup of talk page

I took the liberty of cleaning up the talk page because it had become bloated with irrelevant or moot comments, claims of having known the subject of the article personally (or of being related to somebody who had), and an unsourced, unattributed "poem" that was added to the talk page by an unregistered user through IP 75.67.75.179 and turned out to be a very tasteless joke. --Bwiki (talk) 05:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC) in the movie mask the actor that plays him is as close to the picture as it is going to get —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.229.129 (talk) 14:10, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Problems: only 1 cite; gushing tone; sub-standard writing

This article has only one citation yet is filled with statements that, unless sourced, appear to be the product of editor(s) opinions.

Also, the entire article fairly gushes with admiration for Dennis. This is not to say that he wasn't worthy of it, I just don't think the tone is appropriately encyclopedic. In my opinion, it reads more like a jr high school term paper about his life. Example: continuously referring to him as "Rocky", his by-name, rather than using his last name or his legal first name.

The quality of the writing overall is not very high. The article needs a big a rewrite and, and, to reiterate, a LOT more sourcing than just the one obituary referenced. PainMan (talk) 10:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC) There are several instances where the doctors "told him" he would never be able to accomplish certain things. This is seriously in doubt. It would be unheard of for a paediatrician to tell a young child they would never accomplish something. However, they might tell the childs parents such information if it were thought to be true. I have edited to the contents to reflect a highly probable, less inflammatory prognosis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.221.106.173 (talk) 23:49, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Confusion / contradiction

However, at the age of 16, he became a student of the Sandburg Junior High School (despite obvious disapproval by many teachers) and although experiencing a slow start (he spent two years in the first grade), he was able to make excellent progress thereafter, becoming a straight-A student, and eventually graduating with honors.

How it is possible that he enrolled at Sanburg Junior High School at the age of 16, eventually going onto graduate with honors, if he died at the age of 16? Does that mean he enrolled at SJHS for only the eighth grade, having gone to school somewhere else beforehand? It seems doubtful that a junior high school would award honors— let alone evening recognizing graduation for eighth graders— to a student who only went there for one year. He died in October, so it seem more likely that he joined SJHS when he was 15 when starting the school year the previous September; otherwise, he never went a full year at SJHS. This little section seems to overemphasize his successes in education, and it's simple nature doesn't warrant much merit for inclusion in the article unless it is expanded. —№tǒŖïøŭş4lĭfė ♫♪ 11:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

• I suspect that he entered an elementary or primary school at the age of six. First Grade is usually found in primary schools, so I think "16" is a typo for "6". --Monado (talk) 02:11, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Yeah, he entered school at age 6, according to a People Magazine article. The article doesn't provide a name for the elementary school. Zagalejo^^^ 18:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Family Guy references

Dennis has been mentioned at least twice on Family Guy in the episodes "Petarded" and "Peter's Got Woods." Is this notable? http://familyguy.wikia.com/wiki/Rocky_Dennis--MichaelProcton (talk) 05:40, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Another contradiction

Dennis experienced problems with eyesight and hearing along with painful headaches, but was able to do many things he was thought not be able accomplish, such as learning to read. His poor eyesight, which made him legally blind, meant that he would never read a book

If he learned how to read, how did being legally blind mean he would never read a book? Did he learn to read or not? Helpsome (talk) 17:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Complete lack of citations

I made a few changes, but they were reverted by a user who wishes for any changes first to discussed. Understandable, but the talk section looked dead and the article was kind of bad. Firstly, new sources used:

1. Hazel Lodevico-To'o, ‘Rocky Dennis: Teaching the Boy Behind the Mask’ Patch, (March 11, 2013) <http://patch.com/california/glendora/rocky-dennis-teaching-the-boy-behind-the-mask>
2. Michelle Green ‘The Drama Behind Mask’, People, Vol. 23 No. 11, (March 18, 1985), <http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20090192,00.html
3. Linda Witt, ‘An Unusual Mother Helping Her Children Face Down Death’, Chicago tribune, (May 11, 1986) <http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-05-11/features/8602030023_1_cher-rocky-dennis-real-life
4. Duane Dudek,‘Chance meeting inspired “Mask” writer’, The Milwaukee Sentinel (Mar 29, 1985), p.26

The first source is used simply to give a personal description of Roy. The second source, was already cited, but only the web address, not the full details. The user who added it also just copied a tiny section from the text. The Third supports the claims of the second source however there as some inconstancies, such as when Roy received an X-ray which reveal abnormalities. The fourth reveals that Phelan actually meet Roy, and was the reason she wrote the screenplay. All sources are journalistic. Still there are sections, which have no citations yet have been left there, often they seem like random injections of information, or they just simply made no sense. Such as "Dennis experienced problems with eyesight and hearing along with painful headaches, but was able to do many things he was thought not be able accomplish, such as learning to read. His poor eyesight, which made him legally blind, meant that he would never read a book." Which I rewrote in my edit, to show doctors believed he was blind but actually he could still read.

--Mikeymikemikey (talk) 17:41, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

A number of your changes are badly executed. A lot of them are large changes and, yes, they need to be discussed, Mikeymikemikey. You can't keep reverting back what you like after being asked to wait for and take part in discussion about the changes. Doing so is called edit warring, and you have been warned about it already. Instead, you went ahead and reverted back in spite of the warning. Your changes included poor grammar and spelling errors. Look for the edit warring report filing notice on your talk page. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 06:29, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Well at least you are here now. I found your behaviour very hostile. I made no substantial changes at first, though a lot considering the disrepute of this article. I just changed it because complaints had been made 2 years ago and no one had done anything, nor was there any live discussion. For example, the claim that he was 16 when he joined school appears to be left for the 2 years, no citation was given and it was indeed wrong. But there were many other issues, such as the claim that his affliction effects 1 in 220 million, which is not stated on the website cited, another I've stated above. And the execution, grammar and spelling was already bad, so I doubt I damaged a great working piece of art. But I guess you're just trying to justify your hostility.

What's more is the "edit warring" came out by accident. You reverted this whilst I thought about adding more, which I did, and appeared to you as a undo of your revert. I read your comments and I acknowledged your request for a talk page post. I was going to include a post but it didn't look like anyone was interested in replying soon, so I didn't feel it was urgent and changed the article first, which I did explain though maybe I needed to go into more detail, as you appeared to be unconvinced. However you decided to be very hostile and posted warnings to ban me on my page. I was shocked and felt very alienated. It was not like this was a controversial article. And yet after leaving for a few hours you said nothing in the talk page, so I changed it again. Therefore I have to ask, if you are so determined to keep such a hawk eye on this article why have you not engaged with it?--Mikeymikemikey (talk) 11:59, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Your comments directed at me are inappropriate and unnecessary and are bordering on personal attacks. Please comment only on editing and edits, not editors. I fail to see how your edit warring behavior happened by accident. After being told to not edit war and discuss on this talk page, after having an edit warring warning placed on your talk page - you continued to revert your edits back in. Three times. And all before I was able to comment here. There is no rush, Rome wasn't built in a day, and there is no deadline in Wikipedia. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:25, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I will be taking the edits in question one-by-one so you can better understand where I'm coming from:

• born in Glendora, California, USA, was a boy afflicted with... We don't put such a distinction in the lede paragraph of articles. This needs to be change back to "was an American boy afflicted with..." as it was previously.
• His body was donated to UCLA Medical Center after his death. "After his death" is an awkward addition that reads like an afterthought. It should come at the beginning of the sentence, something along the lines of "Following his death, his body was...".
• Roy Lee "Rocky" Dennis was born 4th December 1961 We don't write dates like that in the United States, the article subject was American, therefore dating manual of style standards need to followed for this article. Also, no need to add his whole name again as it's already been established in the infobox as well as the lede paragraph. "Rocky" will do just fine.
• Often his date of birth and death is confused the fictitious 1964 - 1980 dates of his portrayal, by Eric Stoltz, in the 1985 film, Mask. Suspicion about Dennis's condition began after complications during a routine tonsillectomy. Dennis, then two and half years old, was sent to hospital, where X-rays would reveal abnormalities of his skull. Very poor grammar, "often" is not appropriate encyclopedic wording and is POV, too wordy, and not a necessary distinction that needs to be stated in this article.
• Later Dennis was diagnosed... "Later", when? It's vague and needs to be rewritten or not included at all.
• It occurs approximately in less than one in a million births. Not supported by any source. Needs to be removed.
• His Mother was told that her son by the age of seven, if he had not yet died, would lose his sight and suffer mentally retardation, caused from the abnormal calcium deposits that would push Dennis's eyes away from the centre of his skull, twist his nose out of shape, rupture blood vessels, increase pressure on his brain, and cause paralysis. Way too wordy, badly written, extraneous language, "centre" is not American English. There was nothing wrong with what was there previously.
• However, by the age of seven, Dennis had not lost his sight and was able to read, much to the astonishment of doctors who had told his mother, when Roy was six years old, that his 20/200-20/300 eyesight qualifies him as legally blind. More poor grammar, too wordy, run-on sentence, incorrect usage of "however", unencyclopedic wording.
• Still many teachers believe that, due to Roy’s appearance and poor eyesight, he should be enrolled into separate classes for handicapped students, but his mother objected. Unencyclopedic wording, not in past-tense, "still many" is POV, punctuation poorly placed.
• Fortunately Roy was liked by his classmates who described him as ‘real funny’, and in an interview, Barbara Silva, a teacher at Roy’s Sandburg Junior High School, reminisced Dennis as kind and direct about his affliction: Another run-on sentence, poorly worded, "fortunately" is unencyclopedic and POV, "Roy" should not be used per MOS (his last name should be here instead).
• If anyone showed signs that his appearance made them uncomfortable, he would say, kind of matter-of-factly, ‘If I make you uncomfortable, you can move. But I can’t change my face.’ It would be an icebreaker. He would put you at ease by addressing what was obviously bothering you, and say, 'It's okay, I get it' Blockquote completely unnecessary. Should be placed within the article prose.
• And, despite the doubts of his ability, Roy graduated top of his class. Again, unencyclopedic, POV language used.
• Find-A-Grave is not a reliable source and cannot be used.
• Anna Hamilton Phelan wrote a screenplay based on Dennis's life, and Peter Bogdanovich directed the 1985 drama film, entitled Mask, in which Eric Stoltz portrays Dennis and his mother, Rusty Dennis, is portrayed by Cher. The film came about after Phelan’s chance meeting with Roy Lee Dennis whilst she was in hospital, where she was ‘swept away by amazement at the way he carried himself’. WAY too wordy, very poorly written, there was nothing wrong with what was there previously. You deleted content that was long-standing without reason. The reference you added in unverifiable. The whole paragraph needs to be reverted back.
• The story is only loosely based on Dennis' life, with most of the scenes and dialogue have been altered for dramatic purposes. For example, the film shows Rusty at Dennis' grave site; however, the real Dennis was not buried, as his mother donated his body to UCLA for medical research. The dates of birth and death on the tombstone are also incorrect. However Dennis’s memorable Poem in the film, which he reads to his mother, was actually written by the Real Dennis. Florence's refusal to accept her son as an ‘invalid’ was also true, however and her pursue to enrol Roy in High school as a normal student spanned a few years of Roy’s life between the ages of ten and twelve, rather than the last year before he died as portrayed in the film. Written in unencyclopedic prose, bad grammar, run-on sentences, supported only by a source that is unverifiable -- looks like original research.

So, hopefully, now you will be able to see why your changes were reverted wholesale. There was just so much wrong, and so much that needs to be discussed per WP:BRD in order for any of what you included to stand. Most of it is just badly done and goes against WP:MOS. What was added has caused the article to be more unstable than what it was previously. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:31, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The fact I'm not American is nitpicking, just change it to American English if you find it so offensive.

OK on 'the american boy' although 'boy' is unneeded, as is the link to a page about Americans. I'm sure people know who they are.

The source I added, findagrave.com, which you complained about was for an already written sentence. This sentence is basically a copy and paste from that site. I found out where they got it and gave the citation for it.

The "uneccesary" blockquote was just to make the article more interesting as there is little here, but I'm fine with it going.

Last bit I don't really care about either. Just thought it was interesting to note that the screenplay writer had actually met him.

What's still wrong.

You still have a find a grave site quote, which is now unsourced.

The stats on the frequency of the condition are not the same on the site cited, I believe it has also changed through different versions of the article.

Dennis is some how blind and unable to read, but also not blind and able to read. This doesn't make sense nor is it cited.

At least you corrected the age he joined school but again that whole paragraph is uncited.

The citation formats are all wrong and 'unclycopedic'. They're basically just web linksMikeymikemikey (talk) 02:18, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Not in reference to Rocky per se since I don't know, but "legally blind" and 'actually' blind are two different things. Many legally blind people can read, they just need really big letters. 116.231.74.1 (talk) 10:57, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Roy L. Dennis/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

How come whenever i add information to this page it keeps getting deleted. Then wenever i type something to see if it would stay, they keep sending me messages telling me ill get banned for vandalism.

Last edited at 23:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 04:59, 30 April 2016 (UTC)