Talk:Ragamuffin cat

Article expanded

– Just a notice.

The article has been expanded but still could use some more information, I will continue to research this breed and invite anyone with a passion and knowledge for cats, particularly this breed of course, to contribute to this article. Thanks, Malix 14:49 EST, December 9, 2005.

Disambiguation

Disregard

– Moot.

Ragamuffin has multiple meanings.."A shabbily clothed, dirty child" -- unsigned

That's why this is at Ragamuffin (cat), not Ragamuffin. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:46, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A Demon?

Disregard

– Off-topic.

Can anybody confirm that Ragamufin as a name of a demon? I found it at *http://st09.startlogic.com/~pendrago/demons.html but it's hard for me to believe that or several other names. --anon

This belongs at Talk:Ragamuffin, not here. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:46, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

History changes

This history was related to me by one of the founding breeders, Janet K.[1] over dinner. She is the founder of Encore Cats, Brandon/Valrico Florida. I have also had personal Acquaintance with Judy M. who now resides in Clearwater Florida and am living with Lynn T, the founder of Encore Too!, an off shoot and Janet's affiliated cattery. also see the unofficial history as told by Janet K. http://ragamuffinsragamuffinsragamuffins.yuku.com/topic/1636/t/RagaMuffin-History-by-Janet.html Jiohdi (talk) 02:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, forums and personal websites are in most circumstances not considered reliable source (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources). Furthermore, unflattering biographical material has even stricter rules regarding reliable source (see Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons). I have removed the offending text. If you have reliable source from say official breed registry publications or books feel free to add them back. For example I found this source that backs up the car accident/experiment thing, although it is presented as an unattributed rumor rather than Baker's version of the breed history. --220.255.x.x (talk) 09:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mrs Ann Baker is now deceased and the information I have is from a first hand source, the president of the breed association, Janet K. who owns the Ragamuffin.net website. the above history by Janet is her first hand account, verified by her, over dinner in tampa florida april 13, 2008. I don't know what more I can give to verify this unless wikipedia wants signed affidavids. Her website has her email address and you can write her to confirm the details. She is one of the four still active founding breeders of the line.Jiohdi (talk) 15:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok so BLP does not apply, but WP:RS, WP:V still has to be met. From Wikipedia:Verifiability:

Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:

1. the material used is relevant to their notability;

2. it is not contentious;

3. it is not unduly self-serving;

4. it does not involve claims about third parties;

5. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;

6. there is no reasonable doubt as to who authored it;

7. the article is not based primarily on such sources.

Negative claims about Baker fails at least point 3 and 4, and possibly 2. Positive claims about Janet and Co. fails point 3. You could probably cite the non-contentious stuffs to the forum post, but as per 7, it should not be the only source used for the article.--220.255.x.x (talk) 16:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have re-written to remain as unbaised as possible while preserving the relevant facts, I hope this meets your approval, I am all for accuracy on this subjectJiohdi (talk) 15:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

most excellent work X.X., I am sure the community will be pleased with your hard work.Jiohdi (talk) 01:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

you dont just remove all accurate research without explanationJiohdi (talk) 11:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We do if it's unsourced and unsourceable, because no one can prove the assertion that it is "accurate". See WP:V and WP:TRUTH. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:48, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Standards

the ACFA RAGAMUFFIN Standard Revised April 2000

General

The overall impression of the RagaMuffin should be one of sweetness and robust health. RagaMuffin females are generally considerably smaller than males, both being muscular, and heavy with a tendency toward a fatty pad (greater omentum) on the lower abdomen. RagaMuffins attain full maturity at approximately four years of age. The cat is striking whether it is color point, color point with a white blaze or star, mitts and tipped tail set against darker fur, a dramatically marked tabby, or a breathtaking calico. The only extremes in this cat are large size, large expressive eyes and docile nature. A RagaMuffin is people loving and affectionate-a large, cuddly, feline teddy bear![2] Jiohdi (talk) 15:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect article!

(comment moved here from main article) Not true. Josephine was a different type of cat and yes, mixed with other breed. Ragamuffins weren't first on the pallet. This information is misleading. Ragdolls were first and the name was patented by Ann Baker. Another group that branched out due to breeding restrictions came up with the ragamuffin. If you are going to type this rubbish, at least get the information and they history correct. Yes Ann Baker was a basket case. But you can't type this info in here like this. This is almost written as if you are a fan and breeder of the cat ragamuffin. I have over a decade of history with the ragdoll breed. I demand this article be removed or at least revised with accurate information for others to search correctly.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Danikablack (talk • contribs)

I removed the sentence about ragdolls being subsets of ragamuffins. The other parts of the article seems to fit what you say. Anyone can edit the article so feel free to correct any wrong information or add new info to the article.--Dodo bird (talk) 06:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

you are free to make corrections, but not free to destroy the entire history. This history is from a ragamuffin founding breeder, so of course some bais may exist. but on the whole this history has been verify by other sources such as the iams breed info on iams.com96.228.188.111 (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

what are you hallucinating- the article clearly in several places mentions that ragdolls were first-While Ragdolls were first registered and accepted as the breed ancestors to the RagaMuffin, the current allowance of Ragdoll out crosses makes the Ragamuffin the larger catagory of breed with the Ragdoll as one of its sub-catagories.-since the original ragamuffins were infact ragdolls, the entirety of ragamuffins would hold ragdolls as a sub-set of the whole because they are, even though they were first and registered first.Jiohdi (talk) 19:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Um, the allowance of outcrosses doesn't make any breed a subset of another breed. This subcategory info is meaningless.--Dodo bird (talk) 01:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

its not about outcrossing, but the fact that ragamuffins and ragdolls were originally one and the same, but now ragamuffins includes a greater set of cats which still includes the original ragdolls, but not the current ones.Jiohdi (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently IRCA Ragdolls and Ragamuffins were one and the same, but unrelated to the original Ragdolls who came from Josephine. Jiohdi (talk) 01:57, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I do have to disagree with most of this profile but I am the Breeder whose idea it was to leave the IRCA and it was I who selected the RagaMuffin Breed Name. I selected it because once the new Breed was accepted by a major recognized Cat Association all the resulting printed advertising of the RagaMuffin Breed would naturally appear alphabetically before Ragdoll. I even went as far as making sure the Breed name contained a capitalized "M". The other Breed named choice I offered was "Lieblings", When The American Cat Association (ACFA)accepted RagaMuffin as the Breed Name I decided that my ACFA registered Cattery would be named "Liebling" Cats.I also selected RagaMuffin because all the other Ragdoll Breeders discredited and continiously mocked the IRCA cats as being Ragdolls since they always said our cats were moggies and street cats. I took their lead with naming the Breed RagaMuffin.It is also important to note that the foundation cats of the RagaMuffin Breed ARE NOT traceable to the foundation cats of the Ragdoll Breed.They were and are seperate genepools —Preceding unsigned comment added by CurtGehm (talk • contribs) 20:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Broken links

some of the reference links are broken —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.240.114.173 (talk) 20:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mark them with {{Dead link}} and someone will try to fix them. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:49, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quite a bit POV

"They are adorable as early as four months of age." Seriously!? 151.24.55.58 (talk) 11:17, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of cat articles have this problem. Please remove personal-opinion stuff like this with extreme prejudice. You do not need to seek consensus on the talk page to removed unsourced material or other violations of Wikipedia policies like WP:NPOV. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:51, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Odd capitalization

So the title of the article is "Ragamuffin", correct? Then how come every reference to the breed in the article capitalizes the "m" so that it looks like "RagaMuffin"? Please set this straight so that, right or wrong, they are both consistent. öBrambleberry of RiverClan 16:36, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed most or all of the CamelCase spellings to normal English while retaining a note in the lead that some prefer the CamelCase, which is a far as we need to go in honoring cutesy font games. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:52, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge?

I'm trying to think of a legitimate reason to not merge this to Ragdoll or vice-versa, since they're the same breed as promoted by different breeders/boosters and as codified by different cat fancy organizations. I'm inclined to merge Ragamuffin (cat) into Ragdoll as the derivative sub-breed and the less-used term. Is there any registry that permits "both breeds" and actual has non-trivially distinguished breed standards for "both". This to me is like having a separate article for Longhair Manx and Cymric (cat), which we would never do; they're the same thing, as named differently by different groups and with insignificant conformation variations between groups. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:55, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

CFA recognizes them as two different breeds.Dodo bird (talk) 10:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See the comments from Curt above, the guy who got the breed registered as Ragamuffins, the ragdolls of today are not related to ragamuffins, IRCA ragdolls are but they are a totally different lineage.Jiohdi (talk) 13:34, 11 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Improving the article

I am adding a number of references in order to improve the citation basis of the article and fixing a few broken links. I am not adding or removing any information at this time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darques (talk • contribs) 14:14, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article would be more accurate if it included ALL RagaMuffin clubs. The way it has been changed eliminated an active RagaMuffin club and implies, with an incomplete sentence that the only authentic RagaMuffins are those from the clubs listed. This is not accurate and in fact most of the members of the named clubs use the Selkirk outcrops, while almost all the members of The Ragamuffin Kitten Breeders Society do not use this outcross. Furthermore, one of the clubs listed was originally a club formed by The RafaMuffin Kitten Breeders Society and was taken, along with the property it owned, by another club. The Ragamuffin Kutten Breeders Society is a legitimate cat club and should be put back in the article. The persons responsible for removing it state that they are a show club, but three of their members, not including their President, do not show their cats LuvMuffins (talk) 03:35, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weight and Length

Could someone who knows add information about the average weight and height of this cat? Thank you. Rissa, copy editor (talk) 01:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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