Talk:Pillai (Kerala title)

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Malayali Illathu Nair Pillais and Tamil Pillais

From Born to Dance by Harriet Ronken Lynton: "Pillai is a caste name belonging to a community which in the old days taught Bharata Natyam in Tamil Nadu, mainly in Tanjavur. Some families in Kerala having nothing to do with dance also use the surname, Pillai."

There is a Tamil caste called Illathu Pillai. They are not Nairs. They belong to Vellalar community. Ittassery/Idachery Pillais are also not related to Illathu Nairs. People of Ittassery/Idachery community were milk suppliers. They have similarities with the Konar caste of Tamil Nadu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.219.50.5 (talk) 05:08, 6 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rajan Pillai and Ravi Pillai are Vellalars

Many people had mistaken Rajan Pillai and Ravi Pillai as Malayali Nairs. They are not Malayalis. They are Tamil Pillais. Their mother tongue is Tamil.

Rajan Pillai belongs to Shaiva-Vellalar Pillai community: http://www.saivaneri.org/pillai_greats_page3.htm

Ravi Pillai too is Tamil Pillai: https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Pillai_(community).html

Once I saw on a website that Ravi Pillai belongs to Thirunelveli Vellalar Pillai community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.219.50.5 (talk) 05:22, 6 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have encountered numerous Vellalar websites claiming that individuals from the Nair community are Vellalars. Some websites even assert that Kerala Pillais, Menons, Nambiars, and Kiriyathil Nairs are Vellalars, which appears to be a misleading statement. It's worth noting that Ravi Pillai belongs to a Nair family, and his wife and relatives are also part of the Nair community. You can find wedding videos of Ravi Pillai's daughter and son's on the internet, showcasing Nair customs and styles.
I cannot confirm the details about Rajan Pillai, but his wife belongs to the Nair Pillai caste. It's understandable that the claims and behaviors of some Tamils can be frustrating nowadays. R.Nair.1117 (talk) 14:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Vellalar Origin of Nairs

Tagging @Sitush:@Outlander07:

According to tradition(Keralolpathi), Vellalars were feudatory overlords who were bestowed with titles such as Menon, Panicker, Kurup, Nambiar, etc.[1] It is believed the Vellalars were the progenitors of corresponding Nair lineages.[2][3][4][5] The Indologist Oppert claimed 64 families of karakattu vellalars formed the original Kiriyathil Nair (The highest subclass of Nairs) group. This is attested to by L. K. Ananthakrishnan Iyer.[6]In the Cochin area, some of these Kiriyam Nairs were also called Vellayma Nairs[1], signifying the connection to Vellala or Valluvan of the Tamil lands. These are considered superior to the rest.[7]There is a recent study which shows 8000 Kongu Vellalar moved to Kerala under the Kongu Cholas.[8] Copper plate land grants in the west coat to Vellala Karalars date their settlements to the ninth century at the latest. (This also the time period from when there is solid evidence of “Nairs” - Gough 1961 describes them as vassal chieftains). The Nanchinad Vellalas, are another classic example of Vellalas who help sway in Kerala since medieval times when they moved under the Pandyas.Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).

This pattern of Tamil Vellalars becoming Nairs is corroborated by many examples by historians such as M.N Srinivas, S. N. Sadasivan, L. K. Ananthakrishna Iyer, Hayavadana Rao, Subramania Iyer, H. A Stuart, Edgar Thurston, etc. up until the mid 19ty century, with evidence for the same.[9][10][11][12][13][14][15][8]

Among the 5 original subgroups of Nayars the Illam , Kiriyam , Padamangalam , Swaroopam and Tamilpadam. Two of them that is the Pandamangalam and Tamil Padam have established Tamil origin and the Kiriyathil has a Vellala origin according to tradition. And if you look at the Nair subdivision ranking compiled by Fuller Nair#Subgroups the Tamil subgroups are one of the top 5 out 18, indicating their influence and power, and the Kiriyath is number one. Even among the examples I provided above, most of the Tamil migrant groups seem to naturalise as high ranking nairs eventually.

We know that Kerala was under Tamil control for most of the medieval era. There was an initial wave of Vellalar Chiefs in the medieval period when Kerala was under the Tamil Moovendars, who including the early and Kongu Cheras has their base in Tamil Nadu. Even the Chera Perumals brought Vellalars to administer. It wouldn’t be extraordinary to assume these Tamil Vellalar chiefs became the top echleon of nairs belonging to the Kiriyath group after the Cheras fell. There was continued migration of other Tamil Vellalar groups subsequently till the 19th century who naturalised as Nairs. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 05:35, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

With regards to specifically the Pillais, other than the sources I’ve already mentioned here is one more.[2] Quoting Balakrishnan N. Nair

”Indeed the Pillais among the Nanchinad Vellalas appear to have undergone Sanskritic influence at the hands of the Tamil Brahmins and Kannada “Pottis” at a later stage so that they attained the status of ‘"Amhalavasis” and gradually merged into the same class of ‘‘Nayars” through " inter-marriage. The “Pillais” among the “Nayars of Southern Travancore must therefore be considered originally to have been of Tamil extraction even though for reasons which can be historically adduced this process of “cultural fertilisation” at the lower reaches between two communities of almost identical culture appears to have come to an abrupt end since the beginning of the nineteenth century when Brahmanical ascendancy regained in vigour and led to the stratification of social classes in Travancore.” Cyberanthropologist (talk) 13:21, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It would be quite fair to omit the unreliable sources as sitush pointed on the Mannadiar talk page. Is it worth claiming the entire Nair community origin based on a newspaper article?. How would someone include Keralolpathi as a primary source asserting the legendary character parasurama beyond myth as the creator of Kerala?.R.COutlander07@talk 16:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Outlander07: The news paper article can be removed of course, but there are solid primary sources like M.N Srinivas who corroborate it. I’ve added these references too. About Keralolpathi, while it is not a reliable historical source on its own, it is a traditional source rooted in some truth. So I don’t think it should be disregarded completely and should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

William Logan one of the harshest critics of the Keralolpathi, someone who called it a farrago of legendary nonsense also has said the Nairs originated from the Vellalars. ”In this way the real agriculturists except the Vellalar (irrigators) out of whom the class of Nayars seems to have been originally formed, came to be treated as being outside the caste system altogether.” William Logan; P. J. Cherian (2000). William Logan's Malabar Manual: New Edition with Commentaries. 1. Thiruvananthapuram: Kerala Gazetteers Department. p. 116. ISBN 8185499373. OCLC 52039872.

I am not advocating that all Nairs were Vellalars. But I believe the link with the Vellalars is a strong one that must be included as a theory atleast in the Nair page.

Cyberanthropologist (talk) 18:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above statement itself says the theory proposed by William logan is obsolete that the common Nayars were treated as Shudras who in turn a part of the caste system. R.COutlander07@talk 05:18, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On page 116 William logan stated the Nayars —whom they designated as Sudras but in reality, treated as Kshatriyas. Nevertheless, it is perfectly clear from the wording of the Syrians deed that the planters—the islanders—who are still the most numerous body of Hindus in the district, were originally an organized agricultural caste with a distinct function in the body politic. The real fact seems to have been that the Aryans who introduced the political system of caste into Malabar were unwilling to raise even the aboriginal ruling race to the dignity of the pure Kshatriya caste of Aryans. And yet the State organization required that there should be a protector or Kshatriya caste, so they solved the difficulty by inventing a term— Nay an plu. Nayar (Sans, leader, soldier)— and by applying it to the caste whom they constituted protectors and yet treated as Sudra. In this way, the real agriculturists except the Vellalar (irrigators) out of whom the class of Nayars seems to have been originally formed, came to be treated as being outside the caste system altogether. The statement clearly distinguished Nair's from Vellalar's. R.COutlander07@talk 14:53, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello.no need for confusion. In page number 111 it is clearly given by Mr.William Logan that Nair caste came from Vellalar irrigator. Please check it yourself. https://archive.org/details/malabarmanual0000loga/page/110/mode/2up?q=Vellalar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maravar007 (talk • contribs) 17:59, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Hermann Gundert; T. Madhava Menon (Translated to English) (2003). Keralolpatti. Thiruvananthapuram: International School of Dravidian Linguistics : Distributor, Dravidian Linguistics. p. 68. ISBN 8185692351. OCLC 60393384.:”To the Vellalar also was granted feudatory overlordship status and titles like Vazhum Vazhunnor, Kartha, Kambammiki, Nayar, Menon, Pilla, Panikkar, etc.”
  2. ^ Hermann Gundert; T. Madhava Menon (Translated to English) (2003). Keralolpatti. Thiruvananthapuram: International School of Dravidian Linguistics : Distributor, Dravidian Linguistics. p. 59. ISBN 8185692351. OCLC 60393384.:”Those belonging to Vellala lineages are known as Thangal, Kammal, Kurup, Panikkar, Nayar, Atiyoti, Nambiyar, Chellattan, Thalachennor, Talappennor, Menokki, Menon, Appan, Ammoman, Ammavan, etc.”
  3. ^ L. A. Krishna Iyer (1968). Social History of Kerala: The Dravidians. Vol. 2. Madras: Book Centre Publications. p. 3.:”The evidence in early Tamil literature goes to show that the Nayars and the Vellalas were originally of the same stock.”
  4. ^ G. Arunima (2003). There Comes Papa: Colonialism and the Transformation of Matriliny in Kerala, Malabar, C. 1850-1940. New Delhi: Orient BlackSwan. p. 118. ISBN 8125025146.:”Thus, the Dravidian inhabitants of Malabar, the Nayars, who were originally the vellalar, or agriculturists, were converted into the “protecting” or “governing” class.”
  5. ^ William Logan; P. J. Cherian (2000). William Logan's Malabar Manual: New Edition with Commentaries. Vol. 1. Thiruvananthapuram: Kerala Gazetteers Department. p. 116. ISBN 8185499373. OCLC 52039872.:”In this way the real agriculturists except the Vellalar (irrigators) out of whom the class of Nayars seems to have been originally formed, came to be treated as being outside the caste system altogether.”
  6. ^ Iyer, L. K. Ananthakrishna (1912). The Cochin Tribes And Castes. Vol. 2. Madras: The Government Of Cochin. p. 15.:”Kiriyattil Nayars—They form the highest of all the Nayar subdivisions in the Cochin State as well as south Malabar... The members of the aristocratic class who still bear the titles of Panikkar, Kurup, Kaimal, Kartha, Menon, and Menokki belong to this class....The Nayars of this class are, according to current tradition, connected with the sixty-four families of Vellalas, whom Dr. Oppert has tried to identify with the Pallavas.”
  7. ^ https://books.google.co.in/books?id=7S5uAAAAMAAJ&dq=vellayma+nairs&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=vellayma+highest+. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help):”The highest Nair sub - caste in the Trichur District as in the other parts of the old Cochin State was known as Vellayma ”
  8. ^ a b Krishnamachari, Suganthi (30 April 2020). "Inscriptions talk of fascinating Kongu connection". The Hindu. Retrieved 17 April 2021.:”The research of epigraphist Pulavar Dr. S. Raju shows the vestiges of the Kongu connection among the Vellala migrants to Palakkad...There is a Kongu Chola inscription, more than a 1,000 years old, which talks of Vellalan Kumaran Kumaranaana Dhananjaya Pallavaraiayan, living in Palakkad. Many Kongu Vellalas lived in Palakkad, Chittur, Kollangodu and Alathur. One story that repeats in literature and copper plates is that of the marriage of a Chola princess into the Chera royal family, and the subsequent movement of 8,000 Kongu Vellalas to Chera Nadu...‘Alagumalai Kuravanji’ talks of these Vellalas”... “According to Mezhi Vilakkam, the Vellalas had landed rights (kani urimai) in Kochi, Kollam, Kozhikode and Palakkad”...”Mannadiyar is a title, which the Angarath and Vadaseri families of Kerala have”... “William Logan, in his Malabar Manual, says that the Mannadiyars were a caste of Vellalars from Kangeyam, in Coimbatore province, who had settled in Palakkad. Mandradi is a title held by many Kongu Vellala families”.. “Mandradi became Mannadi in Malayalam”...”Menon is a title indicative of a person’s social status, and derives from the Tamil word Melavan, meaning a person of high rank“...”Interestingly, many of the Mannadiyars are Menons.” says Raju”
  9. ^ Sadasivan, S. N (2000). A social history of India. New Delhi, India: APH Pub. Corp. p. 282. ISBN 817648170X.:”Similarly a class of Chettis of Coimbatore whose relative status in Tamil Nadu was much lower than that of the Tiyyas , entered Kerala as late as the middle of the 19th century and found a place for them among the Nayars. Recorded as Vellalans and...”
  10. ^ Sadasivan, S. N (2000). A social history of India. New Delhi, India: APH Pub. Corp. p. 283. ISBN 817648170X.:”The Konakachettis or Chettipillais (vendors of loin cloth or penial covers) who entered Kerala from Tamil Nadu around the 17th century took the title Pillai which is also a caste title of the Nayars of South Kerala. Although the Nayars in the earlier years considered them polluting, the similarity in their titles led to the establishment of proximity sprouting the logic of convenience for them to inter - marry. The original five divisions of the Nayars , Illam , Kiriyam , Padamangalam , Swaroopam and Tamilpadam have now little resistance for intermingling.”
  11. ^ Edgar Thurston; K. Rangachari (2001). Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 1. New Delhi: Asian Educational Services. p. 298. ISBN 8120602889.:“Padamangalam and Tamil Padam were not originally Nāyars, but immigrants from the Tamil country. They are confined to a few localities in Travancore, and until recently there was a distinctive difference in regard to dress and ornaments between the Tamil Padam and the ordinary Nāyars. The occupation of the Padamangalakkar is temple service, such as sweeping, carrying lamps during processions, etc. The Tamil Padakkar are believed to have taken to various kinds of occupation, and, for this reason, to have become merged with other sections.”
  12. ^ Cite error: The named reference “rao” was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  13. ^ Iyer, L. K. Ananthakrishna (1912). The Cochin Tribes And Castes. Vol. 2. Madras: The Government Of Cochin. p. 13-14.:“The Nayars...Their origin is still problematical, but it is generally held that they are a Dravidian people who have been modified by mixture with the Nambuthiris...They may have been among the first invaders of Malabar and consequently assumed a dominant position...This process of assimilation is going on even yet. Chetties of Coimbatore . . . Gollas . . . from the north have similarly, in course of time, assumed Nayar customs and manners, and are now styled Nayars. Again the Rajas and Chieftains of the country sometimes raised individuals or classes who had rendered them meritorious service to the rank of Nayars. These men were therefore styled Nayars, but formed a separate sub-division with little or no communion with the rest of the Nayar class, until at least, after the lapse of generations, when their origin was forgotten.”
  14. ^ Mysore Narasimhachar Srinivas (1995). Social Change in Modern India. New Delhi: Orient Longman Private Limited. p. 18. ISBN 812500422X.:”Thus the two patrilineal Tamil trading castes , the Tarakans ( of Angadipuram ) and Mannadiyārs ( of Pālghāt tāluk ) , gradually changed , in about 120 to 150 years , from patriliny to matriliny . Tarakan women had husbands from Nambūdri Brahmin or Samanthan families while Tarakan men married Kiriyam Nāyar women. Some Tarakan women had connubial relations with men of the royal Vellāttiri lineage , and this was a source of wealth for the lucky Tarakan lineages.”
  15. ^ Edgar Thurston; K. Rangachari (2001). Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 1. New Delhi: Asian Educational Services. p. 283. ISBN 8120602889.:“"The Nāyars," Mr. H. A. Stuart writes...Chettis of Coimbatore, for example, who settled in Palghāt and Valluvanād within living memory, have developed by this time into Nāyars...Again the rājahs and chieftains of the country sometimes raised individuals or classes who had rendered them meritorious service to the rank of Nāyars. These men were thereafter styled Nāyars, but formed a separate sub-division with little or no communion with the rest of the Nāyar class, until at least, after the lapse of generations, when their origin was forgotten.”

Dikra ji ap pleaj Meelu (clan) page ko Meelu pe redirect karden hum apke bahut Abhari hongay Dhanevadh Jai Mata Di Jai Shri Raam — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.191.123.172 (talk) 15:52, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many of these are just assumptions; Nairs are genetically different from Vellalars. R.Nair.1117 (talk) 02:22, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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