Talk:Persians

PERSIAN PEOPLE ARE IRANIAN PEOPLE

Article is so convoluted it makes no sense. Article needs a complete overhaul, one hopefully that puts to rest the idea that "Persian" people aren't just plain old fashioned Iranians.

Norwegians don't call themselves 'Vikings' and Italians don't call themselves 'Romans'. I think I pretty much made my point.

Changes to link

Consider adding Afghanistan/Tajikistans Tajiks as "Persians" ===Related groups=== There are several ethnic groups and communities which are either ethnically or linguistically related to the Persian people, living predominantly in Iran, and also within Afghanistan, the Caucasus, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates.<ref>{{cite web|year=2005|title=SociolinguistEssex X – 2005|publisher=[[Essex University]]|page=10|url=http://www.essex.ac.uk/langling/documents/slx/slx_x_programme.pdf}}</ref> to ===Related groups=== There are several ethnic groups and communities which are either ethnically or linguistically related to the Persian people, living predominantly in Iran, and also within Afghanistan, the Caucasus, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates.<ref>{{cite web|year=2005|title=SociolinguistEssex X – 2005|publisher=[[University of Essex]]|page=10|url=http://www.essex.ac.uk/langling/documents/slx/slx_x_programme.pdf}}</ref>

Sorry, didn't work as intended. Consider changing the publisher parameter from Essex University to University of Essex

Again, it has been made a point that the Persian ethnicity does not exist in the Persian language. Instead, Persian equates to Persian speaker or "Farsi zaban". Tajiks or Persians of Afghanistan and Tajikistan identify as the same. They identify from the city they come for e.g."Herati" or "Kabuli". I want to clarify that this is indicative of this article in Persian itself. You can see that a Persian is referred to as Persian speaker an in this case Tajiks are included. فارسی

Milad

Arabic 2605:8D80:608:170:D6C:BBAB:4174:3CF4 (talk) 02:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Estimate by Lawrence G. Potter

Here is the source: I had added this to the page, as it seemed to be reliable, but my edit was eventually reverted. Any comment is welcome.Ayıntaplı (talk) 02:13, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Dear @Armanqur, I have already added the first source here. I think it would be more constructive to make some further comments. Ayıntaplı (talk) 03:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Second source: Ayıntaplı (talk) 03:11, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the 65% figure found in just one source is too definite here. I cannot read these two sources as they are books I don't have and Google will not provide me a preview, but I know of at least one other source that gives a figure of 61%, so the 65% is disputed. It would be helpful if you (Ayıntaplı]) used the "quote" parameter to quote what these sources are saying, although not essential. It is clearly incorrect for this page to assert a definite figure of 65%. I also note that talk pages are not required for approval of edits, but rather, where there is a dispute, the editor who reverts a bold edit should really open or engage in discussion to explain why they dispute the edit. In this way we can find consensus. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:03, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

@Sirfurboy The first source has a table, the middle column being for the percentages:

Persians 36-49-51 27.1-39 million

The second source:

The Islamic Republic of Iran is ethnically diverse. Persians comprise only a little over half of the country's population.

I will also be adding these quotes to the references. Ayıntaplı (talk) 14:26, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

@Sirfurboy Do you believe there are any problems with the given sources? If not, I'll be adding them back. Ayıntaplı (talk) 16:32, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

You say the first source has a table line: Persians 36-49-51 27.1-39 million. What number there is the percentage? The second source says "a little over half" which is probably all we can say at this time too. It can't support a percentage figure, but it can support that very statement. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:56, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I believe we can drop the second source. The percentage in the first source is "36-49-51." Ayıntaplı (talk) 18:25, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

But which is it? 51% of Iran's population? Or is it referring to Persians in 3 different countries? I am confused by that figure, sorry. There is a discrepancy between sources about these figures, so "a little over half" using the second source may be better than citing a figure. I believe the discrepancy comes from what people are including under the heading Persian. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:30, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

@Sirfurboy The column is titled "Percentage in Iran," so these figures constitute a range of estimates for the percentage of the Persian population of Iran. Actually, the table should be readily accessible through the link provided. Ayıntaplı (talk) 18:41, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I believe we can drop the first source. 36% and even 49% sounds incredibly WP:UNDUE. If I'm seeing this right, then this source also says that the Azeris possibly form up to 41% of the population of Iran, which sounds like something taken out of Aliyevs scrapbook. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:46, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I personally believe 36% is very low and 41% is astronomical, but I'm not sure if our presumptions should be of relevance given previous cases about source reliability except for the source being fringe. Ayıntaplı (talk) 18:53, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with "presumptions", but what is WP:UNDUE and what isn't. The source doesn't even specialize/focus on this subject either as far as I am aware. I believe you're already very well aware of WP:RS generally says about the numbers of Azeris in Iran (many which can be seen here Azerbaijanis), so I find it odd that you're willing to use this source, even instead of the other one used here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:00, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

The reason I am not willing to use the second source is because it is unclear what "a little over half" means. For example, it could be 51% or 60%. I hadn't thought of this while adding the second source, which I should have. Ayıntaplı (talk) 19:04, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I have seen a source that suggests the figure is 61% (would have to search for it), so I think if we are moving away from the 65% (which also has a source), then indefinite is better. Or is there an up to date official census figure of any kind that we can use? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:11, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

There isn't any official census about ethnic demographics. I'm okay with either or none of these sources being used, although I have pointed out a few concerns of mine here. I will try to come up with a few more sources, since the main problem here is the small amount of sources for the population. Ayıntaplı (talk) 19:24, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Map for diaspora

Why isn't there a map for Persian/Iranian diaspora as well? I think it should have an infobox detailing their population statistics too. Firekong1 (talk) 21:43, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Why naming Persian speaking scholars from Central Asia/Khorasan/Afghanistan Persians in Wikipedia ?

When most of them were of Bactrian, Sogdian, Khwarezmian, Kambojan etc... ancestry. I think it's not fair for Tajiks for example it would be more suitable to call them that, or even Farsiwan, or just Persian speakers or why not even Khorasanis. It's making people think of a sort of modern day Iran supremacy and neglects the distinct origin they had.

It's like these people were all Persian settlers from the actual Persis/Persia proper.

Even modern Iranian Persians are mostly descendants of various western Iranian tribes that got Persianized throughout history. 2A02:8428:809E:6701:E4ED:5B5E:1EEB:E8EB (talk) 21:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)