Talk:Novak Djokovic/Archive 4

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Why is "Novak Đoković" spelled wrong in the article?

I was very surprised to see that "Đoković" has a totally wrong spelling in the English wikipedia, while e.g. Ana Ivanović, Jelena Janković or Dino Rađa are written correctly. I guess it is impossible to correct it, but why is this? Why is only Đoković's name written wrong and all other Serbian and Croatian names written correctly? This is a big mistake for such a good wiki like the English one. If somebody could correct it, it would be really great but I guess it's not possible without one entire week of work... 85.176.225.39 (talk) 06:52, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

There is no consistency or universal policy, all discussions are in deadlock with people simply arguing for or against diacritics. Đoković is most certainly not the "wrong spelling" by any account, it just happens to be the out-of-favour variation. On principle, one can write his name in any of the two forms across WP and most of the time, it will pass unchallenged, both are acceptable. I admit however that I use the diacritics always, and if someone then amends it, it won't be because it was incorrect. Evlekis (Евлекис) 22:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

His surname is Đoković not Dj and c. Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.93.181.31 (talk) 12:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

If Ivo Karlović and Radek Štepanek can have ć and š , Đoković deserves more to be spelled correctly. Please. 93.86.247.218 (talk) 21:54, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I would vote for spelling it Đoković. I see that there is a certain freedom with spelling of Slavic languages which use the Cyrillic alphabet (like Russian, ...). However, Serbian has a next to the Cyrillic an official Latin spelling (see Romanization_of_Serbian) and I see no reason why one would use a transliteration if there is an official spelling in Serbian. So, if nobody objects I will change the spelling... Fabian Hassler (talk) 23:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

C'mon..his surname is Đoković, not Djokovic..in serbian thats very different pronunciation..such a shame for en wiki..--109.93.118.132 (talk) 13:00, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

For the English language Wikipedia I agree with the consensus that it makes sense to use the form English speakers are most familiar with. "Djokovic" is used in all the English-language media. Leoniceno (talk) 21:26, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

DJ is a recognised alternative for 'Đ' even within Serbian/Croatian orthography. There is still no argument against the end place diacritic because the sources we refer to simply disclude them from the onset - that means everywhere. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 15:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Which really has no bearing as most sources used in the English language would work that way for a reason... except in rare circumstances we have 26 letters in English. Why would they be expected to use Swedish letters in English publications. We spell players names in common sourced English but also let readers know what the spelling is in the native language. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
So, why is there Robin Söderling instead Soderling? Btw, Djokovic=Дјоковиц, Đoković=Ђоковић, wich is correct.--109.93.208.40 (talk) 10:08, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Why called "The Djoker"?

The article currently contains no information on the origin of this nickname. Might be interesting to include it. --Steerpike (talk) 23:03, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I think it started because jim Courier pronounces his name "Joker-vich". Hxseek (talk) 22:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Nah this would probably be attributed to the adjective "joker" and his hilarious impressions of fellow tennis players. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.130.80 (talk) 20:02, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Birthplace?

How was Novak born in Zvecan when, on both ATP and ITF sites, it says that he was born in Belgrade? --109.93.41.203 (talk) 17:45, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Nationality

According to actual reference No. 3, Novak‘s mother isn‘t Croat. The original words are “Novakova majka iz Hrvatske”, and translated it means “Novak‘s mother is from Crotia”. --109.92.97.107 (talk) 19:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

According to reference No. 2 she is Croat, and reference No. 2 is even more relevant than reference No. 3, because reference No. 2 is a interview with Novak. In that interview he specifically said; "I da mi je majka Hrvatica, iako je roðena u Beogradu, jer su svi njezini iz Vinkovaca i tamo imam puno rodbine." Which translated on English means; "And that my mother is Croatian, although she was born in Belgrade, because all of hers are from Vinkovci and there I have a lot of relatives." Case closed, she is Croat. Deal with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.226.156 (talk) 20:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Nobody, but you, is debating his nationality. He is Serbian and nobody said otherwise. His mother however, is Croatian as did Novak Djokovic stated in the provided reference. So, I don't know what is the problem here, except the constant Serbia vs. Croatia brawl. Wiki page about Novak Djokovic is not the page for that, especially when his ancestry is well sourced. --Eversman (talk) 16:26, 198 May 2010 (UTC)

There has been a constant vandalism of Novak Djokovic page by anonymous user, where he keeps removing reliable sources about his parents ancestry. Slobodna Dalmacija is Croatian daily newspaper founded and continuously published in Split since 1943, Novak Djokovic gave that interview to the reporter of Slobodna Dalmacija, Davor Burazin, on July 30, 2006. It is reliable source by Wiki standards, it is translated on English as it was writen on Croatian. So I am asking that this article is locked to stop further vandalism. --Eversman (talk) 14:06, 07 June 2010 (UTC)
As far as Djokovic's ancestry is concerned, your claim that neither of his parents are Serbian really doesn't add up. The reason I say this is because he is always supporting Serbia, in every way possible. He brought a tournament to Belgrade, and right after Kosovo independence and he came out and supported Serbia, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEjo782mJGk . In the video he makes it really clear that he supports Serbia, and that his family supports Serbia. He really put himself on the line for voicing his political opinions right after Kosovo's independence. How many top-tier athletes do you know who would do that for a country that they have no ancestral roots to. I believe that it's possible that his mother is Croatian in the same way that Nikola Tesla is Croatian, I also believe his father is a Montenegrin Serb, otherwise he wouldn't be spending all his time in Belgrade. I think that the article on its own isn't enough to confirm Djokovic's ancestry because Novak's own actions show that no Serb ancestry is unlikely. Furthermore, the article may have misquoted what he was saying. I think that the origins of Djokovic's parents should be left undefined until he clarifies them himself. A single quote from a 4 year old article isn't enough clarification considering Djokovic's actions within those 4 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.36.145.140 (talk) 06:26, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Your explanation is weak. Nobody is debating his nationality, he is Serbian, he was born in Serbia, he was born in Belgrade and of course he will spend most of his time there, of course he would support Serbia. But we are not debating Novak's nationallity, his parents are of Montenegrin and Croatian extraction, as I have provided with a reliable link that proves it with Novak's own words. I seriously doubt that reporter, who talked with Novak Djokvic, is a first grade kid who doesn't understand what Novak told him during that interview. You haven't provide not a single shred of evidence that the link I've posted isn't reliable, just yours thoughts and interpretation of Novak's life span, which is meaningless in this issue. He clarified his parents ancestry in the link that I have provided, your problem is that you don't accept this link because it is of Croatian origin, so please leave your national pest out of this issue. I don't know what are you trying to prove with that Youtube clip, that he is Serbian? Of course he is, likewise I could post a youtube link where he claims that “Croat or Serb - It's the same thing.” But what is the point, what does it prove? That he is not Serbian, if we would take your approach and your way of thinking. Further more, I am taking this issue to the Wiki page where admins are identifying reliable sources, so lets see what they have to say about this problem. With regards--Eversman (talk) 11:20, 08 June 2010 (UTC)
Carefully watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw2cmOSm1rs#t=4m51s . Djokovic's own father said his ROOTS are from Serbia. What more proof do you need!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.36.146.111 (talk) 01:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
I did, and I don't see anything similar to what you wrote. His father is talking about Novak's roots, and not his own. I don't know what are you trying to prove here, Novak is Serbian and nobody is debating that, but his parents are Montenegrin and Croat. Try something better. With regards--Eversman (talk) 11:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
If neither of Djokovic's parents are Serbian then where on earth do his Serbian roots come from. At 5:10 he says "WE are a very a talented people". Why is Djokovic's father talking in the first person plural if he isn't Serbian. Come on stop acting stupid, this evidence is pretty legit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grobarparitzan (talk • contribs) 16:22, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
Why wouldn't he talk in the first person plural? His son is representing Serbia, of course he will talk about Serbian sport when his son is playing for Serbia, of course he will talk in the first person plural when he is talking about his son, who is playing for Serbia. Where in that interview did he said that he isn't of Montenegrin origin, where in that interview did he said that his wife is not Croatian? Can you find any, reliable, link where Novak's parents origin is claimed to be Serbian? Any? I am sure, if that it is true, you wouldn't have any problem finding one. I am not playing stupid, thank you, I am just saying what it is, and that is that you are reaching. With regards--Eversman (talk) 19:30, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
If his father was Montenegrin he would be talking in the second person plural. But since he is not that means he considers himself a Serb, which should be mentioned in the wiki article. Furthermore, how can someone have Serbian ROOTS with no Serbian parents, can you please explain that to me. The video obviously shows that your Croatian article isn't accurate. Most people take Djokovic's Serbian ancestry as fact and thus don't question it, this is why there aren't many sources. However, what Djokovic's father is saying in the interview is very nationalistic and so is what Djokovic himself says. So his father is atleast a Serb from Montenegro and his mother is probably a Serb from Croatia (although I can't prove it yet). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grobarparitzan (talk • contribs) 19:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
No he wouldn't, because nobody ask him that question. Siniša Mihajlović is part Croatian, so does he identify himself as a Croat? No. Dražen Petrović was part Montenegrin, so did he identified himself as a Montenegrin? No. Dado Pršo is part Serbian, so does he identify himself as a Serb? No. Jelena Dokić is part Croatian, so does she identify herself as a Croat? No. Đorđe Novković was part Serbian, so did he identified himself as a Serb? No. Do you get my point? There are many examples like that. Your arguments are weak, and you still haven't provided a single reliable evidence that will support you claims. By the sources I have provided, his father is Montenegrin and his mother is Croatian. Prove me wrong, with reliable sources. With regards--Eversman (talk) 23:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
All your examples are basically proving my point, since in each case at least one parent is from the country that the person declares himself from. In the interview I linked, it is pretty obvious that Djokovic's father considers himself a Serb from Montenegro. And throwing these examples doesn't disprove the fact that his father said Djokovic has SERBIAN ROOTS. My argument isn't weak because I'm citing an interview of Djokovic's own father who is basically saying that he himself is Serbian and that Djokovic has Serbian roots. I mean come on you saw the video it's pretty nationalistic. Therefore I propose you say that Djokovic's father is a Montenegrin Serb in light of the video. The video is a very reliable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grobarparitzan (talk • contribs) 22:18, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
No they are not, read more carefully, you got it all wrong. In the link that you have provided, there is no mention of Srdjan Djokovic declaring himself as a Serb from Montenegro, and why would he declare himself like that when he is not born in Montenegro. Just by that you are reaching. His father doesn't basically says that his is Serbian, that is your interpretation of that interview. There is no mention of Novak's Serbian roots, just the basic talk how he plays for Serbia and it's people, how we(Serbs) are very talented people, etc. Don't spread lies. And that basically doesn't mean anything, it is like when George Clooney(for example) is talking to US reporter and starts to talk about how America or it's people are very talented. That by your standards would mean that George Clooney is denouncing his Irish ancestry, and that he in fact is native American? With regards--Eversman (talk) 01:43, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Srdjan is not only saying that he is a Serb but that Novak has Serbian ROOTS(which you seem to simply ignore). Korenje means roots last time I checked, and is it not true that in order for someone to have Serbian roots he must have Serbian ancestry. The George Clooney argument is a weak one, because America is a country of immigrants and the only ethnic Americans are native Indians. Serbia on the other hand is not and saying that you're Serbian means that you have at least some Serbian ancestral roots. This is what makes America, Canada fundamentally different from other countries in the world, it's a melting pot, meaning that an immigrant can become an American. However, in European countries you can't really become an Italian for example, no matter how much pizza you eat. This difficulty around accommodating immigrants in Europe is why you have far-right parties (for example Wilders in Holland, BNP in Britain) gaining power. At any rate I hope this discussion is educating you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grobarparitzan (talk • contribs) 00:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

There is no way that Srdjan Djokovic, in that interview, said that he is Serbian, you are starting to make things up. Show me where he said that. Second, you are taking words out of a contents and you are using them as they fit you. Srdjan Djokovic, in that inteview, said; " On je ipak ovde roðen, ovde je živeo, i ovde su mu koreni i porodica, da je odavde poteka, a ne iz Londona ili Pariza.(" He was born here, he lived here, and here are his roots and family, he came from here, and not from London or Paris.")". Only you know how you were able to derive, that he in fact is saying that he is Serbian. So in Serbia there are no citizens who are of Croatian , Montenegrin, Slovenian, Macedonian or any other ancestry, and who identify them self as a Serbs? Don't be ridiculous. George Clooney and natives was an irony, I was hoping that you will get that. My bad.--Eversman (talk) 18:55, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

By your logic then in your article why can't Djokovic's mother for example be a citizen of Croatia but have Serbian ancestry. The article never says that she is ethnic Croatian, you are just assuming it, just like you accuse me of doing that for this video. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grobarparitzan (talk • contribs) 20:57, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
That is not my logic, it is yours. Try to read with understanding. Article says, Novak Djokovic says, that his mother is Croat; "I da mi je majka Hrvatica, iako je rođena u Beogradu, jer su svi njezini iz Vinkovaca i tamo imam puno rodbine. Tata je Crnogorac, a ja... ("And that my mother is Croatian, although she was born in Belgrade, because all of hers are from Vinkovci and there I have a lot of relatives. Dad is a Montenegrin, and I ......")". Other article, the new I added, also supports my claim; "S obzirom na majku Hrvaticu, vjerujem da ima uvjete za hrvatsko državljanstvo. Ako se odluči na taj korak, Đoković je dobrodošao - rekao je predsjednik Hrvatskog teniskog saveza. ("With regards to his mother being a Croat, I believe he has conditions for a Croatian citizenship. If he decides to make that step, Djokovic is welcomed - said the president of Croatian Tennis Federation")". My articles are clear like morning sky, you are the one who is fishing in the in troubled waters.--Eversman (talk) 21:43, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Neither article clarifies that his mother is not a Croatian Serb. Just like you claim that the video I posted doesn't show that Djokovic's father is an ethnic Serb, even though he makes it pretty clear that he considers Serbs one of his own, since he uses the first person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.36.152.251 (talk) 23:27, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

No, both articles are stating clearly that his mother is Croatian, unlike your video where there is not a single word of Srdjan Djokovic saying that he is of Serbian ancestry. Unless, the Serbs of Croatia are identifying themselves as a Croats by the members of their families and by the officials of the federation, which is very unlikely. I have provided two articles, where specifically is stated of what ancestry are Novak's parents. What have you provided? Lame video where Novak's father is talking about his son playing for Serbia, talks about his son being born in Belgrade and that he has roots there. Of course he will have roots in Serbia and Belgrade when he is born there. WTF? If someone considers Serbs of his own, that doesn't necessarily means that they are of Serbian ancestry. Monika Seles considered Serbs of their own, she even played for you after 1990-1991, does that mean she is Serbian? No. Provide reliable evidence that I am wrong, provide evidence where it states that his mother is not Croatian and that his father is not Montenegrin. If you are right, it shouldn't be that hard.--Eversman (talk) 23:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

The article only makes clear that Djokovic's mother is a Croatian national, your just assuming she is an ethnic Croatian, whereas the article doesn't make this clear. Your inferring ancestry, whereas it is not clearly stated in the article. You can say that Djokovic's mother is a Croatian national but that's it. In the interview Djokovic's father said Djokovic has Serbian roots. According to Merriam-Webster roots means "one or more progenitors of a group of descendants", therefore Djokovic must have one or more progenitors of Serbian decent for his father's statement to make sense. This means someone in Djokovic's family has to be Serbian. Furthermore, being born in a country in no way means you have roots there, your logic makes absolutely no sense. If someone is born in Canada for example doesn't mean he has roots there. Seles never considered herself a Serb but a Yugoslav, but she distanced herself from that too, I guess since she didn't have Serbian roots. Again you say to provide evidence but everyone assumes that Djokovic is Serbian by nationality and ethnicity so no one ever questions it, except some ancient Croatian articles you dug up. I think we should find someone neutral to mediate, someone who isn't Croatian or Serbian, but someone who understands the language and the region. At this point our arguements are going in circles, I say that your article only says Djokovic's parents are from the nations of Croatia and Montenegro but the ethnicity is vague, you say that being Croatian means someone has to be ethnically Croatian, even though you seem to disprove this point yourself, when you say that more than one ethnicity can claim to a country (Clooney example ect..). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grobarparitzan (talk • contribs) 00:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment I saw this on the reliable sources noticeboard. I've changed the article to state what his parents were without making claims to his ancestry. Those claims are unsupported by the references in either direction. All we know is what his parents are not what his "ancestry" is. The sources seem reliable enough btw. I also wonder why it matters what his parents were? This sounds like nationalistic bickering to me.Griswaldo (talk) 12:36, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok that's fine, but change Croat to Croatian and I'll be happy. Also, when discussing someones ethnicity you want to get it right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grobarparitzan (talk • contribs) 14:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

When discussing someone's ethnicity is not very easy to "get it right", because ethnicity is a construct of dubious value to everyone but those expressing nationalistic feelings of one sort or another.Griswaldo (talk) 14:29, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
That's true, it's extra tricky when talking about former Yugoslavia. I think right now we can only say for sure that Djokovic's parents are Croatian and Montenegrin nationals, ethnicity is still vague. Djokovic should clear this up himself in the future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grobarparitzan (talk • contribs) 16:06, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
The suggestion that the origin of each parent has some encyclopedic value is highly dubious. If a secondary source has indicated that the "ancestry" of his parents has some significance, please add the significance with a source to the article. Otherwise, there is no reason to mention it (no encyclopedic reason). Johnuniq (talk) 04:54, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Obviously it is of value, to Novak, when he had a need to emphasize that in the given interview. "I da mi je majka Hrvatica, iako je roðena u Beogradu, jer su svi njezini iz Vinkovaca i tamo imam puno rodbine." ("And that my mother is Croatian, although she was born in Belgrade, because all of hers are from Vinkovci and there I have a lot of relatives.")--Eversman (talk) 12:45, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

What is of personal value to Novak is not necessarily of encyclopedic value, and we certainly should not be making decisions based on what is of personal value. I agree with Johnuniq and think the real solution here is to delete the information about his parents altogether.Griswaldo (talk) 15:24, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree we can delete it, no problem, but I don't think that is the solution to anything. Because then we can start deleting whole other bunch of Wiki biographies regarding famous people, where in almost every one of those biographies, there is a mention about those persons parent ancestry-origin.--Eversman (talk) 18:30, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you give some examples of the type of biographical entry you have in mind when you claim this?Griswaldo (talk) 18:47, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty, but I don't now, let's say; Jean Reno, Monica Seles, Jean-Paul Belmondo, Jane Seymour, Eric Cantona, Angela Merkel, Andre Agassi, Wayne Rooney, Elizabeth Hurley, Pete Sampras, Cary Elwes, Dan Luger, Audrey Hepburn, et cetera. I think that here we have an issue with some Serb users who are refusing to accept the fact. If there is no problem with all those mentioned biographies and plenty more, and their parents ancestry-origin, why it should be a problem with this one?--Eversman (talk) 19:34, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

It's different in this case, since the way it's written it makes it seem that Djokovic's parents are ethnic Croat and Montenegrin, where they may be only Croatian and Montenegrin nationals. This is misleading and it should be left out until Djokovic clears it up in the future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grobarpartizan (talk • contribs) 20:47, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
It is indeed different to identify someone's parents as ex-patriots of a specific nation-state living in another nation state when that person is born. When Novak was born what form of citizenship did his parents have?Griswaldo (talk) 21:25, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Though I will agree that some of the other examples are pretty ridiculous as well. For instance, Jean-Paul Belmondo who was born to a father of "Sicilian decent" we are told. That complete trivia. The way to fix that problem, however is to fix those other ridiculous entries as well. Though of the examples you have given they are not all like this.Griswaldo (talk) 21:28, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
I can't find the citizenship of Djokovic's parents when he was born. There really isn't much information on the topic of Djokovic's parents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grobarpartizan (talk • contribs) 21:31, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

His mother was born in Belgrade, his father was born in Zvečan, former Serbia territory in Kosovo. It is pretty clear where were his parents born, and it is pretty clear of what origin is his mother(2 reliable links were provided) and his father(1 reliable link provided). There are plenty of others links just like those, used to specify someones parents origin, should we question them all because some people have trouble with facing the truth? Or is it just Serbs vs. Croats thing?

This interview is probably not correct. Nowhere else does not mention that fact. So that source is not reliable. If it is true, that means his father is a Serb from Montenegro and his mother is probably a Serb from Croatia and can not be said to be something other than Serbs. --Aca Srbin (talk) 19:50, 07 July 2010 (UTC+01)

Both sources have been identified as a reliable ones. For more information see Reliable sources. With regards, --Eversman (talk) 19:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Maybe, but I think that this interview badly written. Again I say that they is not Montenegrin and Croat! They is Serbs wich maybe have orgins in Montenegro or Croatia. They are Orthodox, speak Serbian and are considered to be Serbs. For example, Nikola Tesla was born in part of Croatia where live Serbs and can not be said that he is not Serb. Greetings! :) --Aca Srbin (talk) 21:26, 07 July 2010 (UTC+01)

Both sources have been identified as a reliable ones. Interview can't be written badly when that source is identified as a reliable one. Provide reliable source for your claims. --Eversman (talk) 22:47, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Where are those sources identified as a reliable? Show us link. I doubt that very much. --Tadijaspeaks 11:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
What do you doubt? That Jutarnji list and Slobodna Dalmacija aren't serious and reliable newspapers? Link is here; Reliable sources. --Eversman (talk) 12:44, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
OK, that is OK. Do we have any other source for that except Croatian ones? --Tadijaspeaks 13:24, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Tadija is right. Eversman, you asked whether this is a war between Serbia and Croatia. This interview is the war in which Croats write lies about the Serbs and the oposite. Maybe you have reliable sources, but certainly not correct that information. The important thing here is to write what is true, but I guarantee to Novak's parents would agreed to what you're saying is not true.
Diana maybe have cousins in Croatia, but that does not mean that it is not a Serb. The same goes for Srdjan. I do not have sources for this because it entails and it is fact!
P. S. Sorry for bad english! --Aca Srbin (talk) 16:05, 08 July 2010 (UTC+01)
On the other side, it is POV fort to enter that information, as those are not important to Novak's biography. Instead just constant edit warring, don't include that! It is a bit pushy to add that. Novak is born in Serbia, so... -- Tadijaspeaks 14:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

What other sources? Serbian ones? I have provided sources that have been identified as a reliable ones. It is up to you to provide reliable source-s that shows me wrong. But the problem is, you can't provide any reliable source-s that proves me wrong. Cause, be sure, if the sources I have provided were a lie, Serbian newspapers would make a public statement about that long time ago. It is not POV, cause practically every famous person on her/his wiki page has information about her/his parents origin/nationality. Since this article is being constantly vandalized with lame and not relevant excuses by user Aca Srbin, I am asking that this article is locked to stop further vandalism. Thank you, --Eversman (talk) 16:49, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

No, it's not!
"every famous person on her/his wiki page has information about her/his parents origin/nationality????"
Thats 1000 years away from truth. This info is disputed, so like that should not be added until we agree here. I suppose that it was added just in order to feed nationalistic claims by other nation. This is POV fork. Can you bring me that famous persons on wiki parents?? At least 7? If everyone have that, it wouldnt be a problem. Rulers and king are not included! --Tadijaspeaks 17:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Who says Not, you? This info is being disputed only by Serbs, you are one obviously, nobody else. Why is that? Because you have a problem with the fact that your best tennis player is of Montenegrin and Croatian ancestry by his parents origin/nationality. What should be agreed? That the sources I have provided are not reliable ones? It was added because practically every famous person on her/his wiki page has information about her/his parents origin/nationality. That is a fact that I have proven with examples I have made during this discussion. Examples have been given, such as; Jean Reno, Monica Seles, Jean-Paul Belmondo, Jane Seymour, Eric Cantona, Angela Merkel, Andre Agassi, Wayne Rooney, Elizabeth Hurley, Pete Sampras, Cary Elwes, Dan Luger, Audrey Hepburn, Ivana Dulić-Marković, Siniša Mihajlović, Jelena Dokić, et cetera. Many more examples can be provided, just say the number. Those person who don't have their parents origin/nationality stated on their Wiki page, are persons whose parents origin/nationality in unkown or it is undisputed, that is, it is common knowledge. --Eversman (talk) 17:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Many people from the former Yugoslavia have relatives in other former republics, and no one has a problem because it is so. For all the examples that you listed is true, but in this situation is not so and I don't understand why you so many insist on it. I told you that this interview misspelled. I know a lot about Novak and to everything you say isn't true.

In Croatia, many Serbs live, and if some Serbs have relatives there, does not mean that they are Croats. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHxsHShCb5w In this video they can see that is not a problem called Novak Croat, but he is not. --Aca Srbin (talk) 00:37, 09 July 2010 (UTC+01)

Look, I am not going to play games with you. 2 sources have been provided, reliable ones, that claim his parents origin. Provide, reliable, source-s that proves me wrong, and leave those stories about knowing him and misspelling for somebody who actually cares. It is quite simple, provide reliable source that claims my sources wrong. End of story, period. --Eversman (talk) 22:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit, nobody is calling Novak a Croat, but his parents origin/nationality is what it is, as sources claim. --Eversman (talk) 22:56, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Well,actualy reference no 3. says nothing about origin of his parents.The no 4. is not by Đoković or his parents and cannot be acepted as reliable.The no 2. reference is also doubtful,`cause it shows clear interventions in Đokovićs words,so we don`t know if there has been any other interventions:For example,whole passage says:
Kad sam ušao u četvrtfinale Roland Garrosa, osobno me nazvao premijer Koštunica, čestitao mi na uspjehu. Šokirao sam se jer je znao baš sve o meni. I da mi je majka Hrvatica, iako je rođena u Beogradu, jer su svi njezini iz Vinkovaca i tamo imam puno rodbine. Tata je Crnogorac, a ja...

In serbian language,of ekavian Šumadija dialect which Novak speaks:

lično not osobno
uspeh not uspjeh
njeni not njezini

Here you have interview given by his father,where he says he is from Zvečan,but his father was born in small village near Nikšić (Jasenovo Polje).So his fathers family originated from present-day Montenegro.Word Crnogorac have two meanings serbian language:

  1. Serb from present-day Montenegro
  2. Montenegrin

Since it is not clear which of this meaning is used here,saying that his father is Montenegrin is clear POV.Neutral tone is to say that his father is from Zvečan,with his fammily roots from Nikšić in present day Montenegro. CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 16:07, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

People in the Balkans know that this is not true and that newspapers frequently write lies. Even if the interview was accurate and Srdjan has relatives in Montenegro, and Dijana in Croatia, does not mean that they are not Serbs! I do not see a reason why so many insist on it. Eversman, The fact that you are trying to prove is not correct and is not important to this article.

The best solution is to not write anything related to his parents because it causes problems and confusion. Thank you! --Aca Srbin (talk) 18:28, 09 July 2010 (UTC+01)

I Agree with those two speakers from above. That info is highly disputed, and as it is not relevant, it shouldn't be included until we agree here. --Tadijaspeaks

I can agree with the constatation on reference 2, so it has been removed. Explanation about reference 3 is total rubbish that doesn't make any sense. So what you are saying is this, no article that isn't an interview of the concerned person can not be considered as a reliable one? Sorry but that is total rubbish, since there are thousands of reference just like that one, that are not interview or anything like that about the concerned person. Explanation about reference 2 is also rubbish. Since when an intervention in the form of a language in the interview, to be exact in the form of words, is a proof that the given article is not a reliable one? What do you expect, that interview from the president of Serbia, for example, in the Croatian newspaper should and will be published in Serbian language? Come on, you are reaching. And yet another Serbian user is making those claims. How convenient, and yet you still haven't provided not a single shred of evidence that proves those references wrong. Untill when? --Eversman (talk) 18:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Explanation about reference 3 is total rubbish that doesn't make any sense. So what you are saying is this, no article that isn't an interview of the concerned person can not be considered as a reliable one? Sorry but that is total rubbish, since there are thousands of reference just like that one, that are not interview or anything like that about the concerned person.

Okey,on what basis that men claims that his mother is ethnic Croat?Is her friend?Relative?Or is he just some guy who saw her on TV?Who or what gives him credibility to make such claim?

Explanation about reference 2 is also rubbish. Since when an intervention in the form of a language in the interview, to be exact in the form of words, is a proof that the given article is not a reliable one? What do you expect, that interview from the president of Serbia, for example, in the Croatian newspaper should and will be published in Serbian language? Come on, you are reaching.

Since,serbian and croatian are VERY,VERY,VERY similar there is no need for translating to be understod.If somebody "translаted" some of his words maybe he also altered them,i.e. from Croatia into Croatian.
Also,I explained that term Crnogorac have two meanings in both serbian and croatian and I gave you reference where his father (Srđan) says from where he is.

And yet another Serbian user is making those claims.

As far you know,I may be from Mars.we talk about validity of references with arguments,not from where are we.That`s how things work.

How convenient, and yet you still haven't provided not a single shred of evidence that proves those references wrong.

I explained why one reference has nothing to do with this topic (altough you returned it in article without even cheking),I explained why other to are very unrealable and why they have no place in this article.If those thing are true,then there should be hundred of references for those claims,not one altered interview and statement of men who has no connection with Novak or his family. CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 20:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Unbelievable, you really are unbelievable. On what basis? On the basis that this person is the President of Croatian Tennis Federation and it is very unlikely that he doesn't know what he is talking about when he is giving statements like that. What are you saying, that he is lieing, that because he is not in personal relation with Djokovic family he can't know of what nationality is his mother? Since when does a certain person has to have a personal relations with other person or his family to know things about him? I have noticed that you are Serb only because Serbs (on this talk page) have problem with references in question. Why is that? If those references are not reliable then there would be a be hundred of reliable references in Serbian media claiming those references as a lie. And yet you can't find any. Why? Below are few of interviews (from Croatian newspapers) with several Serbian notables, including Novak, and amazingly there are no Serbian words in those interviews, only Croatian ones. Where those interviews altered because it was translated from Serbian into Croatian? This is getting ridiculous. --Eversman (talk) 23:05, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

http://www.jutarnji.hr/najgora-nocna-mora--srpske-kinematografije-/840460/

http://globus.jutarnji.hr/svijet/mi-srbi-uci-cemo-u-eu-u-inat-hrvatima

http://www.nacional.hr/clanak/26738/nikola-pilic-zasluzan-je-za-moj-uspjeh

His father is a Serb from Kosovo, stemming from a Serbian Orthodox family and clan from Montenegro. His mother is Serb Orthodox from Croatia. Djokovic family is simply SERBS.

Novak is from Serbia and the Serbs know much more about him and his family, it is normal. I don't know why you can not understand that this fact is not true. And this is getting ridiculous. We are not here to be fought but to inform people with accurate information, but you obviously want to prove that lie. THE BEST SOLUTION IS TO NOT WRITE ANYTHING RELATED TO HIS PARENTS BECAUSE IT IS NOT IMPORTANT FOR THIS ARTICLE AND IT CAUSES PROBLEMS AND CONFUSION. Thank you! --Aca Srbin (talk) 11:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC+01)
As i told above, i Agree with user Aca Srbin and his statement. --Tadijaspeaks 11:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Also, until we agree here, you should stop edit warring, Eversman. Actually, both of you should stop. That info should not be in article until we agree here. Propose what will be better solution eversman, stop convincing us that your version is only one possible. And Aca Srbin should propose his compromise version. So we could fix this without rfc. And in peace! :))) So.

It is quite simple. Croatian daily newspapers such as Slobodna Dalmacija and Jutarnji list are reliable and serious newspapers, as far as I know. The sources are reliable. You are not informing people about anything, you are just yapping that the sources are not reliable and that are not truth worthy. Will you, eventually, present your sources that proves those sources wrong? Will that happen any time soon? There are plenty of others links just like those, used to specify someone parents origin on their Wiki page, should we question and delete them all because some people have trouble with facing the truth? This is not about agreement, you and your Serb buddies are deleting references that are perfectly normal and that have been identified as a reliable. What did you bring to the table? Nothing, not a single reference that would show those sources wrong. Again, until when? BTW, Novak's mother was born in Belgrade, so your info about Serb from Croatia was made up, just like everything else. --Eversman (talk) 16:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I Just wanna say one thing. Most of Croatians who are writing here, they desperately want Novak to be related with Croatia. Here is the fact. Novak mother IS from Croatia. BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN SHE IS CROATIAN! She is an ethnic Serb from Croatia. I saw her 50 times when she watched Novaks matches how she crosses herself like an orthodox Christians do with 3 fingers, which proves that she is Serbian. END OF STORY! You Croats know that before war in Croatia 700 000 Serbs lived there. If someone is from Croatia that doesn't mean that someone is a Croat. And you all know that. End of story, thank you very much. Stop waisting everybody's time. Ahil1982 (talk) 13:17, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

ROFL. How pathetic Croats are. Novak is Serb 100%. I think he started to wore Serb cap and t-shirt more and more to break up those sill attempts. Look his mom raising up 3 fingers (means Serb / Serbia), Novak crossing Serb orthodox way and speaking proudly about his family roots from Kosovo and Metohija province. Montenegro is Serb land. Here are famous words of Montenegrin king Nikola I Petrovic "Let go Montenegrins onto Bar our Serb Bar, onto Serb sea". Montenegrins are Serbs. Mr Boris Tadic, Serbian President is 100% Serb. His dad was born in Montenegro, his mom in Bosnia. We are one people - Serbs. Croats gave up :) Novak and Nikola Tesla celebrate Serbs world wide.109.121.23.162 (talk) 20:09, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Since this argument is still going, here is another article in which Novak's father talks about his marriage, to quote:
Međutim, kao i svaki bračni par imali smo dobre i loše trenutke, ali snaga i deca koju imamo davali su nam motive da sve prevaziđemo. Najviše su zaslužni naši sinovi Novak, Đorđe i Marko koji su oduvek bili i zauvek će biti s nama zato što smo ih tako vaspitali. Mi Srbi smo izgubili svoj identitet razdvajajući se jedni od drugih.
Or in English: But, like any married couple we had good and bad moments, but strength and children that we have gave us motivation to overcome everything. Most contribution goes to our sons Novak, Djordje and Marko, which always has been and always will be with us because that's how we raised them. We Serbs have lost our identity by separating ourselves from each others.
Article
Now just stop mixing ethnics and nationality.Nightfall87 (talk) 15:52, 26 May 2011 (UTC)


Proposition about parents

Eversman and Aca Srbin should propose below their versions, with explanation in few words, no more. This will become WP:TLDR. --Tadijaspeaks 11:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

My suggestion is to not write anything related to Novak's parents. There are no accurate data on their origin (because it implies that the Serbs), and this only leads to conflict, problems and confusion. This detail isn't of great importance for this article and his absence would not have made so much a problem as it is done wrong information. Sorry for bad english! Greetings :) --Aca Srbin (talk) 15:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC+01)

In this video Djokovic's dad makes it pretty clear that Djokovic has Serbian ROOTS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw2cmOSm1rs#t=4m51s . I think the best thing is not to put anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.36.157.25 (talk) 18:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

TLDR indeed, and this discussion reset is a good idea. I've been asked by User:Eversman to help with mediation, so here are my thoughts:

  • It is fair to mention Novak's parents' ethnicity as long as this information is verifiable, is not being given undue weight, and no original conclusions are drawn.
  • Facts about ethnic background of his parents should not be construed as if they are calling into question his own ethnicity. He self-identifies as a Serb, and that is a solid fact.
  • More details about his parents would also be welcome, partly to alleviate the impression that they are brought into the text for their ethnicity only. The suggestion to "not write anything related to Novak's parents" seems a bit bizarre for an in-depth biography this article hopefully strives to be.
  • Jutarnji list and Slobodna Dalmacija qualify as reliable sources. In absence of contravening sources, what JL and SD say may be used to support certain points in the article.

Interested editors should supply their versions of the problematic paragraph, and we'll hopefully take it from there.

Finally, I can't resist a joke: it's refreshing to see an editor whose username is Aca Srbin (English: Serb) arguing that ethnicity is not of great importance. :-) GregorB (talk) 18:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

It is very much like the Holy Roman Empire beng neither religious, pertaining to Rome nor imperial. Today, Tadija discovered User:Illyrian Lizzard who, in my eyes, is the same user as one who has appeared in the guise of Neutral Democrat, Mr.Neutral, etc. you get the picture! In reality, he is anything but neutral. I just wanted to say, as neither a Serb nor a Croat, that I have no problem with using SD as a source, and see no reason why it would state that a Serb had a parent identifying as Croat; if it wanted to be, it could go the whole way and claim Ana Ivanović is Dalmatian Croat too. Let's face it, if we didn't know who she was and she were seen walking in Split or Makarska, with her sheer beauty and her 1,86cm long body, who would assume she was anything else? But SD does not claim this. Evlekis (Евлекис) 21:54, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

As it is good to ask for help, it is not welcomed to ask just Croatian editors for opinion, as user Eversman did (User:GregorB, User:Kubura), as like that, this will become nationalistic fight, and we dont want that! :) In that light, i will not call for Serbian or Montenegrin editors, i will ask for neutral ones.

And, second, this is not mediation, it is just dispute. Also, until we agree here, I am removing disputed content. Please, stop reverting, or i will report three of you for slow edit warring. Also, instead just blink reverts, user:Eversman should talk to us on talk page. --Tadijaspeaks 19:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted last edits by user Tadija because by my humble opinion those sources look legit, and there is no reason to remove them if we all agree that Jutarnji list and Slobodna Dalmacija qualify as reliable sources.--Bbrezic (talk) 23:34, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Eversman is talking, I do nothing but talk. So your ascertainment about not talking is rubbish. Seems to me that only solution we can make here, which will be OK by Serbian standards, is to erase his parents origin/nationality. Is that true, would you be happy with that solution? Well, I am not. I am not gonna let this go that way. So what is your solution?

P.S. Eversman has invited user from Croatia, GregorB, because I wanted to know if the Croatian daily newspapers Slobodna Dalmacija and Jutarnji list qualify as a reliable source, and since GregorB is from Croatia, he should know if those newspapers are truth worthy.--Eversman (talk) 10:23, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I dont want to feed this battle attitude by Eversman, so i am gone. It's not question about this sources, although Croatian sources are only one we have, while Novak's father claim diferent. Per former political propaganda machines of Croatia and Serbia, i dont trust them even now. On RS noticeboard only one user gave his opinion, while it remained questionable should that sources be used here. Explanation for inviting only Croatian users was quite poor. And disputed version was reverted in vandalism manner, again by another Croatian user. So it is obvious that this is political claiming, so bye, bye! Just dont give false explanation, while it is clear what is question here. At the end, we should just follow Novak's own words. Only that is NPOV. All best to you, guys. --Tadijaspeaks 11:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Finally, I can't resist a joke: it's refreshing to see an editor whose username is Aca Srbin (English: Serb) arguing that ethnicity is not of great importance. :-) GregorB, this is what you said is not nice at all. This is a direct mockery of one of the members. Everyone knows that information is not accurate. If you want to write lies, but to promote his country over another, then this site has lost the point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aca Srbin (talk • contribs) 14:08, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I apologize if my joke caused offense. It's not my intention to "mock" anyone, I'm just pointing to a slightly ironic situation. In particular, it is not meant to be an argument against Aca Srbin's views set forth here - he is free to make any point he wishes. And I'm not sure what you mean with "if you want to write lies". GregorB (talk) 17:32, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


We can not communicate in the way the kids do, and that is just what user Aca Srbin is doing. Communication and presentation of facts is not when you write, it is a lie, that information is not accurate. That is not well argued communication, it is indeed the child's level of communication. Sorry, but it is, as it is. I think you should submit some kind of proof for your claims, because now you just look funny to serious interlocutors. We are not in the kindergarten so we can accept something as a lie just because you say it is a lie.--Bbrezic (talk) 17:58, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
This is an exaggeration! Everyone has their own opinion, but insulting and belittling other users is not ok. I do not know English well (I'm sorry for that), but I know a lot about family Djokovic.Aca Srbin (talk) 00:07, 11 July 2010 (UTC+01)
What are you talking about? What exaggeration? Where did I insulted you? Nobody cares about your English and nobody said a word about your English. But child's level of communication that you, once more, are presenting with the words I know a lot about family Djokovic, has to STOP. Submit some kind of proof for your claims, child's level of communication is not well argued communication. How many times I have to repeat that so you could understand what I am talking about.--Bbrezic (talk) 22:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
  • You have greatly misunderstood the ethnicity of Novak. Novak's father is born in Kosovo, of ethnic Serb parents of origin in Montenegro (Serbs of Montenegro), thus, his father is Serb (Srbin) but a Kosovac and Crnogorac in regards of regional affiliation and ancestry. His mother is born in Belgrade, of ethnic Serb parents of origin in Croatian Srem (Serbs of Croatia), thus his mother is Serb (Srpkinja) but a Srbijanka and Sremica (wider term: Hrvatica i.e. from Croatia) in regards of regional affiliation and ancestry. Both of his parents are Serb Orthodox, in contrast to Croats, who are Catholic. But leaving all this, Novak is Serbian (by nationality) and Serb (by ethnicity), and nothing else can be said.

--84.217.193.222 (talk) 18:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

  • It is misunderstood problem about Djokovic; he is bigger than any national or regional definition.

Then it is interesting to find out how everybody would like to have "part" of his success story. He is serbian tennis player and definetly Serbian nationality, but for Serbia is nothing problematic if his parents are not ethnic Serbs or their are partly Serbs. I read that his father is Montenegrin descent and his mother is Croatian descent, but that has nothing with fact that Djokovic is serbian nationality. Timeon (talk) 13:59, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Page protection

So, what happened here? Article was locked by Admins, prior to that anonymus[1] user deleted references about Novaks parents ancestry. Tadija, a Serbian user, said he was leaving this discusion, then he went on whining[2] to Admin that the article should be locked, but only after anonymous user, from Serbia, has deleted references. How convenient and very transparent. So my question here is; are Croatian daily newspapers reliable sources or not? Are Jutarnji list and Slobodna Dalmacija reliable sources? If they are not reliable sources, then you can start removing all the references showing Jutarnji list and Slobodna Dalmacija as the sources for those references. And belive me, there are a lot of references from Jutarnji list and Slobodna Dalmacija all over wiki pages.--Eversman (talk) 20:47, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Eversman, you left a question on my talk page about protection. How can I help? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:52, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Percentage

the win percentage is wrong....what's with the math? i dont know the format for this, feel free to remove what i wrote, just fix the percentage: Career record 348–105 (77.56%) ----- 348-105 is not 77.56%.

"Croats of Serbia" category

{{editprotected}} Category "Croats of Serbia" has be removed because Novak is Serb and this is pure and unnecessary provocation for all Serbs and Novak too.We've seen Novak's playing in Davis Cup against Croatia. Please,change this detail.Thank you!

Regards,

Маријана Мићић

Маријана Мићић (talk) 18:38, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

The protection on the page has now expired, so feel free to make the change yourself if there's consensus to do so. As I have no knowledge of this subject, I'm not in a position to judge whether this is correct or not. —  Tivedshambo  (t/c) 07:14, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
My two cents - this consensus has not been reached yet so better not to write disputed information. If better info ever comes, then his parents' ethnicity can always be added. About questions if Slobodna Dalmacija is ok source - just the fact that we need a source and have one source, tells us that this is somewhat different case. In this case some Croatian (or Serbian) newspaper ALONE can not be the source upon which doubtful and disputed information can be written. In my opinion. Nexus6mAA (talk) 23:39, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Serbia and Montenegro

Novak was represented Serbia and Montenegro from 2003 to 2006 and it is the fact! I do not see what the problem is. The same situation is with Ana Ivanovic, Jelena Jankovic, Monica Seles, Nenad Zimonjic, Natasha Zvereva, Goran Ivanisevic... They competed under different flags so it should be written. Aca Srbin (talk) 18:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC+01)

But they did not change the country and passport: their previous country split/renamed itself. There is really no need to complicate the matters, it is obvious for whoever knows a minimum of history (and the others wouldn't care anyway). Monica Seles does need at least two countries, but the others really don't. No such user (talk) 12:49, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
I understand that, but it writes to all athletes with a similar situation (Denis Sefik, Danilo Ikodinovic, Aleksandar Sostar, Jasna Sekaric, Drazen Petrovic and many others, like the already mentioned). I think it should be mentioned that the athletes performed under different flags. If you think otherwise, then we should change articles for all the athletes with this situation, but I think my version (which is used for a long time, the majority of articles here) is more realistic and fairer situation. Like when we write the name of the country in which a person is born, as it was called during this period. Aca Srbin (talk) 18:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC+01)

Predictions

Why is it stated that Djokovic has won two titles, when the 2011 Australian is still going on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.35.131.152 (talk) 11:17, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


By what parameters is Djokovic considered just one of the best players out of the former Yugoslavia, unless you include both men and women, where Monica Seles reigns supreme?

I agree: "He is considered to be the best Serbian tennis player in history, and one of the best to have ever come from the former Yugoslavia." Seems a bit over the top and reads like original research. Let the article speak for his achievements. AIRcorn (talk) 00:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Rivalries

This section, which was previously removed, was added back in again. It contains no references and appears to be original research. Is there any reason to keep it, are there any references available and how can there be a rivalry if two players have rarely played together. AIRcorn (talk) 03:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

In regards the Djokovic-Nadal rivalry, their most important match to date is the 2011 Wimbledon, not the 2010 US Open. Djokovic won the 2011 Wimbledon. --Bjiliev1 (talk) 23:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjiliev1 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Lead-In Question

Is it really necessary to have all these facts of Djokovic beating Federer and Nadal in the lead-in? It seems like all the beginning of the article concerns itself with is listing times when Djokovic has beaten these two players, particularly Federer. I'm not a huge fan of any of these players, but I don't think statistics like that deserve to be mentioned in the beginning. Anyone else agree?

To clarify, these are the sentences I'm talking about:

He is also the youngest player in the Open Era to defeat the top 3 players in succession. He is also one of only four players (David Nalbandian, Andy Murray, and Rafael Nadal being the other 3) to beat Roger Federer 3 times in one calendar year. He is also one of three players (Nalbandian and Nikolay Davydenko being the other 2) to beat Federer and Nadal in the same tournament twice, accomplishing that feat when he won the 2011 Indian Wells Masters 1000 event. He is also the youngest player in the Open Era to defeat the top three players in succession and he achieved this when he defeated world number 3 Andy Roddick, world number 2 Nadal, and World number 1 Federer in the 2007 Rogers Cup. He is one of only two players to have defeated Federer at the semifinal stage or later on more than one occasion in Grand Slam tournaments, and also at consecutive tournaments (the other being Nadal).

Copa hopman

in 33 consecutive victories should he have the matches of the Hopman Cup, 2011 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.121.101.89 (talk) 19:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Sick idiots!

I can't believe that there is some MORON who edited Novak's page and put today's date as a date of Novak's death!??! I put that nonsense away. Really, be ashamed, whoever you are. -.- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharkeynoyz (talk • contribs) 12:42, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

You shoud not be using abusive language,on talk page.Words like "MORON" and "Sick idiots" could make you blocked.So keep this thing in mind while editing.--abhishek (talk) 08:41, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I may get blocked, and someone is awkwardly joking on Novak's page? Wait a second, I don't understand. I am sorry if these words are abusive, but I find extremly abusive when someone puts a DEATH DATE on a living person's page. Come on, get real. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharkeynoyz (talk • contribs) 12:58, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Also, someone wrote he was tested positive to steroids. Can't Wikipedia do something about these occasional idiots who log in and write garbage? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Byxl (talk • contribs) 15:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

What is need to add detail of every round.

I found that every round's detail is updated.What is point of this.Please check NPOV policy before doing this.As of now I've deleted that. abhishek (talk) 14:10, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Editor are still providing round wise detail,as if it is any newspaper.Please talk before undo my changes.

--abhishek (talk) 12:05, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Record section does not cite any reference

Record section of the page may be done by Original research as it does not cite any reference.Which clearly violates Wikipedia:No original research.--abhishek (talk) 12:32, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

He won first 'Big Five' tournaments in a year - Australian Open and five Masters 1000 events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.117.194.34 (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

The Best Start of Season Winning Streak

Djokovic did not achieve The Best Start of Year Winning Streak, but he achieved The Best Start of Season Winning Streak!

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Mc/J/John-Mcenroe.aspx?t=pa&y=1984&m=s&e=0#

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Scores/Archive-Event-Calendar.aspx?t=2&y=1983

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Scores/Archive-Event-Calendar.aspx?t=2&y=1984


Here you can see that John McEnroe made 39 consecutive victories in 1984. At the beginning of the year was played and the 1983 Volvo Masters (Tour Finals) and ATP account of this victories for 1983. McEnroe has achieved 39 consecutive wins since the start of the season, and Novak 41, which is a new record! --Aca Srbin (talk) 21:17, 07 June 2011 (UTC+01)

I've removed this for the time being per Bloomberg and npr. According to those sources, McEnroe's 42 is the "season" record.
On that note, what is the distinction between "year" and "season" supposed to be -- according to a reliable source?
I notice that this claim was initially added on 13 June, and then sourced later. The sources, however, do not clarify any distinction between year and season, and therefore make the claim confusing. -- James26 (talk) 11:32, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
It should be the official site ATP most reliable source for this.--Aca Srbin (talk) 14:35, 02 July 2011 (UTC+01)
Well if you can find a direct statement about the "best season start" on the official ATP site, you're welcome to add it. But unless the sources actually back the claim being made, it comes across as original research ("Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources"). Thanks. -- James26 (talk) 15:53, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Considered one of the best

I am saying this for the n-th time: please stop the play of words. Djokovic is *not considered* one of the best by anyone other than Cash. Your sources in [a] do not support your falsification of info and is vandalism. Wikipedia administrators: please stop Fyunck from vandalizing the Djokovic webpage. And please stop deleting this talk paragraph and address it.

Mostly performances, and less about statistics, influence whether a player is considered one of the best. While Hewitt or Safin did win 2 grand slams, they won them when there wasn't any dominating opposition. In the case of Djokovic, he also won 2 grand slams but during the dominance of the legendary forces of Federer and Nadal. This year, Djokovic also was on a 43 match winning streak (beating also Nadal and Federer both more than once), which McEnroe did admit was better than his streak due to tennis nowadays being more physical and there being more professional players. Stainlessboy (talk) 13:31, 13 June 2011‎ (UTC)

How many "bests" are there? To have this in there it will have to be attributed to Nadal. AIRcorn (talk) 13:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
A reliable tennis source had stated that had Djokovic played in another era, he would have already been established as one of the greatest tennis players of all time. Stainlessboy (talk) 15:19, 13 June 2011‎ (UTC)
Those kind of comparison are only ever going to be guesses and not really useful for an encyclopaedia AIRcorn (talk) 22:37, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Novak Djokovic is from Serbia

Serbia and Montenegro does not exists any more,please do not reverting my change,respect that Serbia is Novak country and its fact,only true,see page Serbia he born in Belgrade capital of Serbia not Montenegro,in United Nations only Serbia exist not Serbia and Montenegro.Soundwaweserb (talk) 18:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)SoundwaweserbSoundwaweserb (talk) 18:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

The entry in the infobox is about what his nationality was historically, as the names of countries changed. That's the way it is done on many other pages so please stop changing it as you are dangerously close to edit warring. Thank you. Absconded Northerner (talk) 21:43, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Ranking

I doubt any of the people doing it will read this, but please stop changing his ranking to 1. It doesn't take effect until Monday. See the ATP site for proof. Absconded Northerner (talk) 12:36, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Is that some jealous? Serb is No 1 and that's final. :) Snake bgd 14:37, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
No. He's not #1 until the new rankings come out, and that doesn't happen until tomorrow. Absconded Northerner (talk) 14:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. Serbian --109.92.7.92 (talk) 15:02, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Slažem se, sačekajte zvanični ponedeljak i zdravo. --94.140.88.117 (talk) 16:36, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Petra Kvitová

Wikipedia is first and foremost supposed to be consistent. So I would like to hear a full explanation (not a "oh it was decided" because that is not an explanation of the particular issue but the cause) why do we have ITN blurb saying

In tennis, Petra Kvitová (pictured) wins the women's singles and Novak Djokovic wins the men's singles at the Wimbledon Championships.

and not

In tennis, Petra Kvitova (pictured) wins the women's singles and Novak Djokovic wins the men's singles at the Wimbledon Championships.

or

In tennis, Petra Kvitová (pictured) wins the women's singles and Novak Đoković wins the men's singles at the Wimbledon Championships.

How do we justify using diacritics in one but not in the other name? Simple question and I hope to see a simple answer. Let me repeat that once more, I am interested in consistency, so please explain the difference between Kvitová and Đoković. Nothing more, nothing less.--Avala (talk) 17:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

The reasons this page uses "Novak Djokivic" can be found in the archives - this is a good place to start. It also addresses the spellings of other players. Absconded Northerner (talk) 17:31, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
All I can see there is that media uses Djokovic. Well guess what, they also use Kvitova and not Kvitová - Guardian, BBC, CNN etc. yet we have an article about Kvitová. So my questions remains unanswered. Anyone?--Avala (talk) 22:03, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Missed this. I would argue that Wikipedia is first and foremost supposed to contain neutral, verifiable and reliable information. Writing within articles should be consistent, but due to its nature Wikipedia is always going to contain inconsistencies between articles. I stated a discussion below, but you might want to make it a formal move request. AIRcorn (talk) 04:09, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Why picture is removed?

Why the picture where we see Maria Sharapova and Robert De Niro in Djokovic's box is removed?

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/76617091.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892140FEB0FF7845C57D37F0A9F087AB3B062EF6B9B14B52914591C059D6E35E6659 79.175.86.94 (talk) 17:56, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

It looks like it's a copyrighted picture judging by the watermark. Such images can't be used on Wikipedia. Absconded Northerner (talk) 18:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Novak Djokovic or Novak Đoković

Following a discussion at Wikipedia talk:In the news#diacritics consistency the page was moved to Novak Đoković. After continuing the discussion at the moving editors talk page User talk:Prodego#Novak Djokovic should be used not Novak Đoković I decided to move it back to its original name. It would be good to keep it consistent throughout the article so since this is likely to be a popular for the next few days it might be good to bring it up for discussion. This has been done before here, here, here and here. AIRcorn (talk) 04:04, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Boy was that a bad decision to move it. This has been done multiple times in the past and is ridiculous to bring it up once again. So many tennis articles need fixing, updating and creating that the time spent on eventual non-consensus will detract from that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:21, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
It has been over a year since the last attempt and as long as the issue exists it will continue to be discussed. However, it may be a good idea to put a FAQ at the top of the page if consensus is reached this time. Looking back, the last four move attempts closed as (most recent first) do not move from Novak Djokovic, no consensus to change from Novak Djokovic, move to Novak Djokovic and a move to Novak Djokovic that was reverted for some reason. WP:DIACRITICS seems relevant here, in particular "follow the general usage in English reliable sources" which is similar to WP:Common name. In my opinion to justify changing it, at the very least, reliable English sources will need to be found that spell the name Đoković. AIRcorn (talk) 07:12, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Just to clarify the below discussion, there is currently a Request for Comment (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)/Diacritics RfC) relating to the WP:DIACRITICS guideline quoted above that could affect this article. AIRcorn (talk) 12:22, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
But the issue will always exist. It may get changed one time and then the non diacriticers will bring it up every year and one day it will change back. That's the nature of the beast and wiki. It was probably inevitable whether his profile status changed or not but that doesn't make it right or stop it from being a time waster. Four failed times seems like enough. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:32, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
That was a stunningly bad move, and done by an admin, no less. The vast majority of English sources spell his name as "Novak Djokovic", and on the English language wiki, that's what counts. End of. Absconded Northerner (talk) 07:40, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Yep, but all spellings (whether English majority or not) may be taken out of tennis editors hands soon. See talk at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:57, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
That muddies the waters a bit. AIRcorn (talk) 08:27, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Is this the way Wikipedia always works? That unless you closely follow some obscure set of pages these things just get sprung on you with no warning? Absconded Northerner (talk) 08:52, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes it does. I was on vacation for a week and when I came back a page I had worked on a lot had been deleted. Consensus had said to delete it... 3 people! I hate having to watch pages that I don't really care about but they affect so many other pages I sometimes have to. In this particular case if the ATP, WTA, US Open, Tennis Hall of Fame, Tennis Magazine, and the press spell something without diacritics but Encyclopedia Britannica and the United Nations spells it with diacritics... guess which will take precedent... diacritics. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

So will this page now be re - moved to Novak Đoković? Nightfall87 (talk) 11:51, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Presumably so. if that awful RfC achieves consensus 10-7 at the moment, which isn't even close to being a consensus view. Absconded Northerner (talk) 12:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
I am not so certain. It will certainly give a lot more weight to the Novak Đoković argument, but common name will still apply. AIRcorn (talk) 12:09, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
One of the examples given is that Martina Navratilova would not be renamed to Martina Navrátilová under this guideline due to WP:common name, which probably means this would stay Novak Djokovic AIRcorn (talk) 12:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
We should use the same rules for all articles. For almost all tennis players we use native names (Ana Ivanović, Jelena Janković, Nenad Zimonjić, Janko Tipsarević, Ilie Năstase, Carlos Moyá, Marcelo Ríos, Björn Borg, Juan Martín del Potro, Robin Söderling, Tomáš Berdych, Gaël Monfils, Radek Štěpánek, Arantxa Sánchez Vicario, Amélie Mauresmo, Daniela Hantuchová, Petra Kvitová...). I do not understand why the situation is different with this article. It is not same with Martina Navratilova, because has received U.S. citizenship, but I still think that we should moved and this article. --Aca Srbin (talk) 20:46, 11 September 2011 (CEST)
Don't try to make sense of the rules. There are no hard and fast rules for anything. One article will be one, the other will not be. That's the decision of one editor, generally, how it was from the start. There are so many examples on both sides of the aisle. Ngo Diem and Quang Duc have gone back and forth from their native names to the common non-diacritical name, for instance. There have been lowercase wars for years. The only way you can guarantee that a name will stick is if a WP:RM takes place, and even then, an editor may just move it anyway and a proper discussion will end in failure to move it back. Then another editor just moves it again without asking and that sticks until someone else notices. It's chaotic and I've stopped trying to make sense of it... hbdragon88 (talk) 08:18, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Not a bad summary. Someone should write that down somewhere and call it a "guideline". I've been working in requested moves since 2006, and there's never been anything resembling a global consensus on diacritics. If someone can do something about it, I'll consider nominating them for a medal. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:10, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
If you want to go all the way with using native spellings rather than common spelling, why not use Кузнецо́ва when referring to Kuznetsova or 李娜 when referring to Li Na (there are FAR more homonyms in Chinese than any language using a Latin-based alphabet)? I think it is more reasonable to have Novak Djokovic (Serbian: Novak Đoković) and Carlos Moya (Spanish: Carlos Moyá). You might complain that your browser doesn't support Cyrillic; but then I can complain my phone browser doesn't support the Serbian diacritics. Angry bee (talk) 19:37, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
No one says we should use Новак Ђоковић, or your examples for Li Na and Svetlana Kuznetsova. I noted a players which use the names in their native language, but in the Latin alphabet. I do not understand why is different with this article.-Aca Srbin (talk) 13:20, 02 October 2011 (CEST)

Personal Life

Novak has been dating and living with long time girlfriend Jelena Ristic. They have been dating since 2005 and they both reside in Monte Carlo.

I see that's already in the article. I'll try to find some sources tomorrow. BytEfLUSh | Talk! 00:03, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

2010 Davis Cup

From the lede:

Amongst other major titles, he also won the 2010 Davis Cup.

I'm not an expert on tennis, but isn't Davis Cup a competition where teams from different countries compete? He most certainly did help Serbia win the 2010 Davis Cup, but Djokovic did not win it by himself. BytEfLUSh | Talk! 23:57, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Btw, if no-one objects, I'll be removing that unsourced sentence. BytEfLUSh | Talk! 00:00, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Add Novak Djokovic's Secret: Sitting in a Pressurized Egg ?

Add Novak Djokovic's Secret: Sitting in a Pressurized Egg by Hannah Karp in AUGUST 29, 2011 WSJ? 216.250.156.66 (talk) 18:09, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Record Section - 100% wins over number 1

The records section has a listing for "Having a 100% winning record against the World no.1 (Rafael Nadal) in finals in one season – 6." Novak may hold this record, but the correct number of wins would be 5, not 6. By the time of the sixth match in 2011, at the U.S. Open, Novak was Number 1 and Rafa was Number 2. So I'm changing the number. NickInBigD (Hey!) 16:19, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why such a trivial record deserves a spot in this article. Not just this record but several others on that list. Angry bee (talk) 18:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure that having a 100% record against the number 1 player in the world during a season is "trivial," unless you can cite examples of it having been done many times. I'm adding that record back, as it appears that it was deleted by someone. NickInBigD (Hey!) 17:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
It's very trivial and not noteworthy. Lets take a quick look at 1996. Mark Rosset, Tim Henman, Paul Haarhuis, Richard Krajicek, and Thomas Enqvist ALL had 100% winning records vs the number one player in the world. I'll bet this happens almost every year. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
The record as currently worded is not just 100% (because obviously one final and one win would qualify as 100%), but rather as "Longest winning streak in finals vs. the current World no.1." If you can cite examples of where the number 1 player has been beaten 5 straight times by the same opponent in finals during any season other than 2011, then you might have a point. I don't believe that happened in 1996, the year you mentioned. NickInBigD (Hey!) 17:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Clean up the records section

I would strongly recommend the deletion of several entries here. Several I would pick include Winner of the first "Big 3" tournaments in one season' - it's not a record, it's an achievement and four people have done it anyway. The 'winner of most/consecutive tournaments' entries for Dubai and the Serbia Open should be deleted - for one he is not the only man to have the first, and given that these are small tournaments and similar achievements do not appear as records on the pages of players like Rafa, Federer etc. these two should be deleted. I would recommend similar deletion of the 'youngest' records for Miami and Canada though these are to be fair slightly bigger tournaments, I will leave that up to someone else. The '100% win record against the #1 in finals in a season' is also plainly not a record, there are be dozens of examples of players beating the #1 in a final and then not meeting them again for the rest of the year. This section will be greatly improved if these edits are made. Being a UNICEF Ambassador is also not an award, it is a post, so I removed it from that section and it should be referenced somewhere more relevant. --86.183.117.139 (talk) 18:13, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you 100%. While it's great that so many Serbian people like Novak, they shouldn't be so adamant to proclaim him the greatest ever and look to proclaim every single one of his achievements as important. I took the liberty of cleaning up his records section, let me know what you think. 131.151.190.229 (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Whomever did the trimming was overzealous. It looks the "most prize money" record was removed (but has now been put back). That is hardly an insignificant record. NickInBigD (Hey!) 22:53, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Assess

Isn't this article at least B class? Or even higher? --WhiteWriter speaks 11:57, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

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