Talk:Middle East and North Africa

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MiddleEastNewsAgency

there's also a newsagency called mena. see: mena.org.eg

Doesn't really have anything to do with the term MENA covered here. Egyptian state organ. (Collounsbury 08:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)).[reply]

Poorly written

This article was really terribly written. I have edited to rephrase to remove references of MENA region as if it is an "actor" - as well as excessive territorial precision as usage is fairly variable. I removed odd commentary on MENA as consumer market which sounds like promo marketing material (and strikes me as having needed citation to support). I also removed the extensive, POV, dated and inaccurate economic/marketing/consumer discussion (Collounsbury 08:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)).[reply]

Inclusion of Western Sahara

Why, Jalil? As the article explicitly states, there is no one definition of MENA, but the guideline is the "Middle East" and "North Africa." Since Western Sahara is in North Africa, it belongs on the list, right? Are you going to delete - for instance - Djibouti, because it does not fit the criteria you cited (by way of Fayssal's edit summary)? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 03:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Western Sahara is in North Africa, and so is Kabylia and the Souss region. This list includes the countries not the provinces and territories. If you want to add Western Sahara, why not add Kabylia, Souss, the Rif, etc. Jibouti is a full-fledged country and is claimed/disputed by none, not to be compared with disputed territories.--A Jalil 07:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Justin, please stop that. You are being watched by not only admins but by arbits as well. So stop that nonsense. Why not go work for the World Bank and ask them to do include it in their definition? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 10:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense? To call Western Sahara a province is POV, Jalil. You must know that. How is this nonsense, Fayssal? The article explicitly states that there is no single definition of MENA; Western Sahara is in North Africa, right? Is that nonsense? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 16:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And to add a flag or whatever to it is POV as well. This is the bottom line. Please have some research and understand that MENA is an economic platform where state members often meet. It is not a political or geographic entity. So the nonsense i am referring to is just like trying to convience us to add Switzerland to the European Union. So please save us some time. Do you have any more confusions? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 16:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
One definition Sure, that's one definition, Fayssal. So, are you going to delete Djibouti from the list, since it's not a part of the World Bank's definition? If not, why are you in favor of deleting Western Sahara? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 17:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Justin, please check your facts. Djibouti is listed at the WB list. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 17:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
True I had assumed competency in the map that clearly is not the case... Djibouti is on their list, and for some reason, Malta is conspicuously absent from this one. Note that the section does not say "the following are the World Bank's definition of MENA," rather it says "MENA is typically used to include the following countries, although no standard definition exists." (emphasis added) How can you exclude Western Sahara? What is the justification, exactly? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 18:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah bloody hell, the little WS moujahil moudjahid is back. Malta is not part of MENA as (i) it is an EU member and second, despite having historic links to MENA, a long (willing) dependency of European powers (long as in centuries). MENA is a usage found largely in the sphere of people in WB circles and investment circles. WB usage, as such, then, rather than political activist circles is the reference point. Above all when such activists lack a basic understanding of usage, history or, well, practical reality. Welcome back to your personal Qixotic djihad mate. collounsbury 23:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks As usual, between British slang, obscure Arabic transliteration, and insults, I'm not sure that I even understand the point of your post. Are you in favor of removing Malta and/or including Western Sahara in this list? Thanks for the red link - here's another common courtesy and intelligibility. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 23:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Collounsbury for remarking Malta. Koavf has added it though MENA does not include European countries. Ceuta and Melilla are in North Africa and are at the moment part of Spain, if that does not make Spain part of MENA, how could Malta be??.--A Jalil 08:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know Ask the World Bank. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 15:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
koavf, you wrote above "As the article explicitly states, there is no one definition of MENA, but the guideline is the "Middle East" and "North Africa."". So why do you insist on inserting a European country, Malta?. Because it is on the list of countries on the WB page? but why do you try to add WS which is not on that list?, and it is not even a country. The WB seems to be relevant in the case of Malta but not in the case of WS. Stop this non-sense please.--A Jalil 20:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
World Bank definitions I was never in favor of the World Bank definition, but if we're going to use it, we should use it, and not capriciously delete one of the countries. You can't exclude both Malta and Western Sahara by any rational standard. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 02:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good lord, what the bloody hell is your bloody problem? Malta is by no rational standard part of the MENA region. No one in business or generally includes it in the game. Why WB has it on their headline list escapes me, but certainly if you go to the bloody drop down menu you don't bloody get Malta, now do you? (The answer is no) Western Sahara is a disputed bloody territory, different question. I'm bloody taking Malta off the page. Some degree of rationality may yet prevail. collounsbury 14:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC).[reply]
By the way, for a look at real operational definiations of MENA, see WB's own "Doing Business" Database / Project: MENA for example http://www.doingbusiness.org/EconomyRankings/?regionid=426 - Malta does not operationally fall in there. Indeed, in business we look at Malta - like Cyprus - as part of Europe. Now lay off your peculiar little djihad. It's tediously ill-informed. collounsbury 14:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is getting ridiculous. Before bloody reverting, bloody well respond to actual critiques. I defend your (koavf) edits where you have a point, but bloody playing childish revert games tries the patience. 20:24, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Bloody Well, you bloody well bring up a bloody point about the bloody dropdown menu and how the bloody World Bank apparently (bloody) contradicts itself. You could consider it MENA, I suppose, because it is Semitic. That seems bloody reasonable to me. I'm personally not invested in including Malta; I only did so because I saw a source that included it. Since said source contradicts itself, feel free to remove it for all I care, but not all of the other reasonable additions (e.g. Western Sahara, greater Middle East, reference to Chinese culture instead of PRC, etc.) Bloody. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea how to talk to you, but (i) Semetic has fuck all to do with being part of MENA (never mind the question of what Semitic means in this instance). Iran is part of MENA, it's not Semetic, etc.; (ii) your Western Sahara obsession aside, MOST usage and sourcing, including MOST World Bank usage does NOT include Malta (nor W.S. - this latter for the simple reason they want to do business and not get bogged down to be sure). Stop being such a petulant partisan and if you want to "promote" your little WS cause, do so rationally. Bloody hell, I will even support you when you have a right bloody point. collounsbury 20:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC).[reply]
So bloody I never said that only Semitic-speaking regions should be included; I have no problem with Iran's presence. Again, exclude Malta for all I care - I only included it because for some reason, the consensus was to go with the World Bank definition and it contradicts itself. I don't really care. Again, I will refer you to the definition of MENA: Middle East and North Africa. Western Sahara is in North Africa, therefore, it is in MENA. A simple Google search of MENA map includes maps that have WS and ones that don't. Which is fine. I have no problem with some definitions excluding it. But as long as some do, we should include it (and any other potential MENA territories), in the aside that I added at the end of the article. I have to admit my own ignorance here: do you know if the WB coined the term? If not, then who? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REally bloody simple mate: it's not a bloody country. It (or Polisario wants it to be) wants to be, but it ain't yet. (collounsbury 10:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Usage of MENA

Well, I see my little KOAVF Western Sahara agitprop promoter wishes to continue to argue from ignorance, as well as insert his wildly exaggerated obsession with Western Sahara into any topic even tangentially related. This is not just inappropriate, it's positively destructive to articles (as in here in re Malta).

Now, as for the question above, I doubt any single entity - and certainly not WB alone - coined the term. It arose out of both academic and business usage (esp. in financial world), and typically covers the "Arab World" states excluding the peripherals (e.g. Somalia and Djibouti), including Iran, sometimes Turkey although rarely, sometimes Pakistan, although rarely).

You can see typical private sector usage here: http://www.menafn.com/ (I should confess I know the owner of the business personally, but no matter for the substance) or here http://www.menareport.com/en/business/

Further, you can refer to Human Rights Watch own reference to MENA here: http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast and do note the countries included.

Finally, you can refer to International Crisis Group here http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=1096&l=1 and indeed you may wish to take the time to read their critical report on your beloved Polisario (not the shining bastion of liberalism you seem to think, every bit as nasty and unpleasant as the Moroccan Makhzen - but there ain't no bloody virgins in the Middle East / North African political realm, so no bloody surprise).

Now I hope you will bloody well stop your personal djihad to insert Western Sahara on every damn page possibly tangentially touching on the issue, or deface it due to your ill-informed, obsessive, narrow-minded partisan editing. It grows terribly tiresome. Try learning from Arre who is at once able to defend the W. Sahara POV without engaging in ridiculousness such as this foolishness with Malta. (collounsbury 10:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Malta is included. Check the footnote at page 4. The reason i believe Malta is included is that it is ranked 134 out of 162 in terms of GDP (Purchasing Power Parity) being thus the last European country in the list (World Bank 2006 stats). It is also ranked 193 out of 211 in terms of GDP (real) growth rate. What bothers me is the way Justin uses Malta as a scapegoat to further his POV issues. I believe the matter is sorted out for the time being. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware World Bank occasionally includes Malta in its definition (although if you review their operational usage, as in the major "Doing Business" project, you find they do not typically include Malta in actual MENA analyses - not for economic, financial or socio-economic studies; I bloody well work on these issues (or rather investment) and track this quite closely.) I also note from footnote one in the paper you linked: 1 The definition of MENA followed in this paper includes: Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. - This matches typical usage. Of course, as I already noted Turkey is one of those borderline instances where it's hard to say if it is more commonly in the category or out. I am particularly annoyed with his vandalistic editing, as you say "as a scapegoat to further his POV issues." I also would strongly suggest that the current Western Sahara pages could and should be profitably edited to reflect the even-handed critique of all parties by the International Crisis Group (in particular the idealised vision kaovf keeps pimping re Polisario and its 'government in exile' - Moroccan and Algerian sins being rather more obvious and well-reported). collounsbury 11:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Last word on this Western Sahara is a country (in no small part due to the fact that said term is far more vague than even MENA, and has no definition.) I again/still/forevermore have no vested interest in Malta being on this list, nor is it a part of my bloody personal djihad. I have no earthly idea why you want to escalate personal conflicts with your retorts and I wish you'd stop. I have read the reports (there were actually two released simultaneously) from the International Crisis Group, and they are, in fact, well-written, interesting, and I have no doubt accurate. (Do you see how I made that sentence without constructions like "If you weren't such a bloody ignorant child-fool you'd know there were two bloody reports on the bloody Western Sahara, bloody.") Never in my life have I claimed that Polisario were "virgins" nor anyone else in North Africa. Note that every bit of that post was irrelevant to the actual article itself except the second sentence. Why? Because you've just gone on a bloody personal djihad. If you want to talk about me, my editing, my views, feel free to post on my talk. If you want to talk about the MENA article, feel free to post it here. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 15:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Country or Jupiter. You have to understand that MENA is a designation having to do w/ business. We don't have to hear the same arguments everywhere and all the time. If you have no vested interest in Malta being on this list than you are making a POINT. Please stop, it is getting boring indeed. Basta ya hombre! -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 20:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Stop your bloody whinging on mate. You bloody well deface article after article - on subjects you bloody well admit you're bloody fucking ignorant about - due to one bloody obsession. For the sake of a bloody fuck, take a breather. I gots opinions about South Africa, but I ain't no expert, so I keep my hands off. See what I mean? And as for Polisario - your edits show a gullible young fool regurgitating agitprop. Having an opinion is fine, but get some bloody perspective mate. I argue your side when you have a point, you've seen that, but god damn, you keep bloody editing this article inserting Malta, running on as supra about World Bank and then bloody well admitting you know fuck all about the subject you're editing. It is making a goddamned point and while you may not be bloody well "vested" in Malta, you are bloody well vested in defacing every other article with the slightest tangential connexion with your obsession with poorly thought out, poorly informed obsessive edits - as in here, repeatedly, against better advice, in ignorance. I don't go to your bloody talk page because I don't give a flying fuck about you, it's those few subject matters that I do know that I care about. collounsbury 00:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pools of blood It's odd that you would spend so much time cursing at me to say you don't care about my opinion; that makes no sense. Fayssal, if you're implying that I'm breaking WP:POINT, I'm not - I was trying to be consistent with the definition that you wanted to use, namely, the World Bank's. Again, the WB apparently contradicts itself, so the source as such is useless. Feel free to exclude or include Malta for all I care. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 03:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
to make life easier for koavf, let say it in simple English: the list of MENA includes only sovereign states. All koavf is doing from the beginning is to insert WS in the list. WS is not a sovereign state, and will thus never be added to the article. period. --A Jalil 20:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From 2013 MENAP is more prominent group in IMF reports than MENA. We should create a separate page for MENAP Buddyonline7 (talk) 09:54, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey

I think Turkey should be included. It is included in the Middle East section so should by definition be in MENA.Aa2-2004 (talk) 14:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Can't understand why it's not. Cjs2111 (talk) 13:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
MENA is an academic and business writing, you can see the ref which stats that Turkey and Cyrus are not MENA.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 00:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Considering the disputed definition of both North Africa and the Middle East, as well as varying usages of MENA, I have edited the page and map to reflect both the standard accepted list of countries and an expanded definition, similar to the articles on North Africa and the Middle East. -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mauritania

The term covers an extensive region, extending from Morocco to Iran, including all Middle Eastern and Maghreb countries.

However, Mauritania, a Maghreb country, is absent from the list and the map. Is this an oversight? — MK (t/c) 03:33, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Iv'e fixed that,
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 00:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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North Africa

per North Africa definition and munich study sources suggest Sudan is among MENA countries! these terms are vague and ack of consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.33.22 (talk) 14:26, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

per WP:ARBPIA3

semi protected.--Dlohcierekim (talk) 13:17, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Protection

Pages like this need to be protected against angry(might i add) religious followers. 

    Someone also needs to add Pakistan back to the additional countries list. I don’t know who would erase it but it is commonly also included in mena. In fact in the same wiki article it says a term called menap was created specifically to add Afghanistan and Pakistan into mena. Why is Pakistan removed from the additional countries it should be put back on and it is more commonly included than Somalia and half the other countries in that category of other countries  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewinnerz33 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Reference for the use of this term in the English language?

I'm a native English speaker, and have never come across the term "MENA" before the one single occasion which led me to Google what it meant (thus leading me to the Wikipedia page).

This article says it's an English-language term. If that's so, it needs a citation / etymology / history of use to explain it. For all I know, it could have been made up on the spot. Sources required! EuroSong talk 19:20, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well it's an accronym used by the development sector people and derived from English words. Doesn't the reference number 1 (Worldbank) suffice to convince you that this accronym does exist, EuroSong? EMsmile (talk) 14:45, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2019

You should change "population" to "adult population" in the following sentence : "According to Pew Research Center, 40% of the population in MENA has completed less than a year of primary school." Mdruszcz (talk) 14:52, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Gulumeemee (talk) 04:33, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Afghanistan and Pakistan

The two countries Afghanistan and Pakistan have often times been included in MENA. Pakistan for some reason seems to keep getting vandalized off the other MENA countries list calling it controversial even though countries like Chad Niger Djibouti(countries that I have never ever seen being listed as mena) are on there without controversy. Please stop the vandalism removing Pakistan from this because Afghanistan and Pakistan are on many MANY MENA maps if you google mena map and also the world health organization IMF FBI etc all include them in this region while not including half the other countries on the also sometimes included list so please fix any vandalism That happens to Pakistan or Afghanistan there. Thewinnerz33 (talk) 15:53, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Add Mali, South Sudan, Malta, and all Central Asian Countries to the Sometimes included list — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam Hegazy337259 (talk • contribs) 00:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MENA is more broadly a term to define countries that use Arabic language or sharing cultural norms here, the definition is still not clear for many observers, I repeat. Pakistan and Afghanistan are nearly the weird cases, it is sometimes recognized as MENA countries, but it is more frequently cited as parts of South Asia and less, Central Asia. As Pakistan and Afghanistan's cultural and social structures are, for some reasons, not same to most MENA nations outside Islam, it is hard to include them. Likewise, Mali, South Sudan, Malta and Central Asian countries are also exclusively different. Mali borders Mauritania and Algeria, but they only practice moderate Islam and not sharing Arabic language (like Afghanistan and Pakistan). South Sudan and Malta have their connection with MENA by locations, but they are also overwhelmingly different in cultures. Central Asian nations aren't even speaking Arabic either and they also develop a significantly alien culture, a legacy of Russian colonization and stronger contact with China and India.
So unless you think Pakistan, Afghanistan, Mali, South Sudan, Malta and Central Asian nations are majority Arabic-speaking countries, then don't add this. I laugh on this ridiculous inclusion here. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 14:06, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2020

Remove the pew pew from the demographics section 156.221.177.178 (talk) 05:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done - This was vandalism. Thanks! TheImaCow (talk) 07:15, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

South Sudan and Chad

South Sudan (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/3/12/south-sudan-requests-to-join-arab-league https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/3/12/south-sudan-requests-to-join-arab-league) and Chad (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20140412-south-sudan-and-chad-apply-to-join-the-arab-league/) are sometimes considered part of MENA is sometimes considered part of MENA. Both countries are a lot closer culturally to the Middle East and North Africa, both practice Arab or Semi-Arab (in the case of South Sudan) cultures, have a substantial population that speaks Arabic as a native language or use it as a lingua franca in day-to-day life, and both have a history of embracing or partially embracing Arabization. These two countries have more in common with the rest of the MENA countries than Ethiopia and Eritrea do with rest of the MENA. South Sudan and Chad should go into the Sometimes included or Rarely included categories. ItsLife1 (talk) 17:31, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why there's no referrnce to Ottoman Caliphate in this article?

Apart from Iberian Peninsula it's about the same area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.29.198.129 (talk) 11:09, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey

Turkey should be dark blue since it's "Almost always included", especially in the literal traditional definition of the Middle East. It is always considered part of the very traditional definition of the Middle East. Hgh1985 (talk) 08:20, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2023

Change Turkey to Türkiye 79.242.158.208 (talk) 07:18, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: See WP:COMMONNAME Cannolis (talk) 07:36, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why turkey isn't considered a main MENA country in the map

Turkey is a main MENA country politically and geographically 37.231.33.232 (talk) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article name

This article is about the region of the Middle East and North Africa. "MENA" just happens to be one acronym that can be used for the region, along with WANA, SWANA, NAWA, and others mentioned in the article. MENA is by no means an official or proper name with a universially-recognized area – it's awfully odd for the lead to begin with "MENA is an acronym for..." when the article is about the region, not this acronym in particular. Sure, different organizations define the Middle East and North Africa differently, but again, the full name and takes priority. More particularly, "Middle East and North Africa" is the common name. Sources in the definitions section include "Trade, Investment, and Development in the Middle East and North Africa", "The situation of stateless persons in the Middle East and North Africa", "Seizing the Opportunity: Ending AIDS in the Middle East and North Africa", and "Challenges of growth and globalization in the Middle East and North Africa", all of which use the full name as the primary usage and the acronym as shorthand later. We have the articles Climate change in the Middle East and North Africa and Demographics of the Middle East and North Africa which use the full name because that's what's common and recognizable. Reywas92Talk 22:07, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The full edit summary was "Per talk page, the common name is "Middle East and North Africa", and MENA is just one acronym for that. We have pages like Demographics of the Middle East and North Africa and Climate change in the Middle East and North Africa because all of these articles are about the region, not this particular acronym (one of several possible). NATO is a universal proper noun with a specific subject and therefore a poor comparison." Additional sources are the World Bank: Middle East and North Africa, UN Human Rights: Middle East and North Africa Section, European Union: Middle East and North Africa (MENA), and US Geologic Study: Middle East and North Africa. MENA is a parenthetical that has to be explained, not the more common name that can stand alone. Reywas92Talk 22:16, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Reywas92: Please self-revert and start a move request if you wish. Then, we'll decide which one is more appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 22:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would prefer it if people stopped renaming this article multiple times a day without discussing it first. Thanks. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Now, if anyone would like to formally request a move if they really want a different name, that would be great. My entire watchlist today is filled with people changing the name of this article and its talk page. I hope we do not need to resort to increasing the protection of this page, but can discuss the title amicably. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:26, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. MOS:ACROTITLE states both Acronyms should be used in a page name if the subject is known primarily by its abbreviation and that abbreviation is primarily associated with the subject and In general, if readers somewhat familiar with the subject are likely to only recognise the name by its acronym, then the acronym should be used as a title. The current consensus from this RM is that these are not met, and that means that MENA is not a good title for the article. I also don't see the COMMONNAME arguments being too strong – as provided, plenty of sources use Middle East and North Africa in the title and/or first mention and then provide the abbreviation, before abbreviating it in future mentions, which would put both titles in common use. With all that considered, I'm closing this RM as moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

MENA → Middle East and North Africa – "Middle East and North Africa" is the common name for the region, and the article is about the region, not an acronym for the region. See sources used in the article's "Definitions" section "Trade, Investment, and Development in the Middle East and North Africa", "The situation of stateless persons in the Middle East and North Africa", "Seizing the Opportunity: Ending AIDS in the Middle East and North Africa", and "Challenges of growth and globalization in the Middle East and North Africa", all of which use the full name as the primary usage and the acronym as shorthand later. Also see the World Bank: Middle East and North Africa, UN Human Rights: Middle East and North Africa Section, European Union: Middle East and North Africa (MENA), and US Geologic Study: Middle East and North Africa. MENA is a parenthetical abbreviation that has to be explained, not the more common name that can stand alone. Reywas92Talk 23:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 08:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose MENA is the common name. As well as this, I can literally swamp this page with RS using it. M.Bitton (talk) 00:00, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I mean, NGrams counts the number of times a term is used total, not in how many separate publications. If something begins with "The Middle East and North Africa, hereafter abbreviated as MENA", and then uses MENA a bunch of times in the body, that doesn't actually mean the abbreviation is the more common term, just that it's a useful and widespread abbreviation. But the full name is still the common and more recognizable name. MENA is used for convenience, not because it's an official or formal term like the acronym for a government agency. The sources I see always use it after Middle East and North Africa was used at the beginning and then MENA as an abbreviation later. NATO is much better known by the acronym and can be used by itself with wider understanding, but that's not the case here. If I Google "MENA" I get Mena, Arkansas and other unrelated uses, but also the US Trade Represenative "Middle East/North Africa (MENA)", the World Bank above, OECD "The OECD and the Middle East & North Africa", and plenty of others. Reywas92Talk 20:07, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The sources I see always use it after Middle East and North Africa I can list plenty of reliable sources (including books) that use it all by itself. M.Bitton (talk) 20:16, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Soft support First of all, thank you for formally requesting a move. Second, I have no strong opinion either way. the article is about the region, not an acronym for the region. That may be, but per MOS:ACROTITLE we are in some cases allowed to use acronyms in titles such as NASA. Today in several edit summaries, NATO has also been mentioned as an example. On the other hand, Central Intelligence Agency has been preferred over CIA; while I hear and read the latter way more often than the former, I know what CIA stands for. I might not always be able to flawlessly say by heart what NASA stands for (though NATO is easy), but I know the larger public struggles with it (tip for the yankees: European Space Agency is easy to remember). The passage In general, if readers somewhat familiar with the subject are likely to only recognise the name by its acronym, then the acronym should be used as a title seems pertinent here. The argument that MENA is a parenthetical abbreviation that has to be explained, not the more common name that can stand alone therefore seems plausible to me, so I am tentatively in favour of the requested move at the moment. I'm curious what others are going to say. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:13, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. For an acronym to be the article title, it should be the overwhelmingly common name of a subject. This one does not rise to that level. If articles like Federal Bureau of Investigation and Central Intelligence Agency aren't at acronym titles, then this article definitely should not be. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:20, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The acronym is ambiguous and I believe the average Wikipedia reader would not readily recognize its meaning. --Sable232 (talk) 14:16, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose After doing a source review, it appears MENA is clearly the WP:COMMONNAME, but many sources do describe the acroynm in full before using it repeatedly throughout the rest of the article. However, MENA is also the topic - Middle East and North Africa doesn't adequately convey the grouping of countries in the same way MENA does, and the sources which use MENA without a description are sources from the MENA region. SportingFlyer T·C 16:42, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Any time MENA is used, it's just shorthand for Middle East and North Africa. Whether one uses the full name or the abbrevation – or another abbreviation, as covered by the article – the exact grouping of countries will not necessarily be the same. Even if some MENA region sources have an audience that will recognize what it means without explanation, that is not universally the case and we should use a more broadly understandable title. Reywas92Talk 20:12, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The same could be said about NATO. M.Bitton (talk) 20:17, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    NATO is much better known than this term and does not need to be defined for most people. MENA will be much less likely to go without definition. But more generally, while the NATO article is specifically about NATO, this article is about not only MENA, but also WANA and other other terms, and broadly the region as a whole regardless of what it's called. Reywas92Talk 22:50, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    This isn't a competition between terms. MENA is known and used as is in French, Italian and many other languages. If this article isn't just about MENA (it should be), then moving it to "Middle East and North Africa" won't change anything. M.Bitton (talk) 22:56, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom, and for preciseness in the title. BD2412 T 02:43, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: requesting more comments based on policy — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 08:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Western Asia has been notified of this discussion. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 08:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Africa has been notified of this discussion. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 08:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Arab world has been notified of this discussion. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 08:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, since it's an ambiguous acronym, the full phrase is used in sources as well, and the use of the acronym is jargon not familiar to most readers. If The Times of London and The Washington Post were regularly using it, that might be another matter. (Then again, it might not; they regularly use "UAE" but we have the article at United Arab Emirates anyway.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:52, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"SWANA" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect SWANA has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 3 § SWANA until a consensus is reached. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 17:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"South West Asia and North Africa" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect South West Asia and North Africa has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 3 § South West Asia and North Africa until a consensus is reached. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 17:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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