Talk:Mehmet Oz/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

End of last line second paragraph: Contradiction!

'an example of choosing "pundits over experts".' According to your own https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pundit#English: 'Noun pundit (plural pundits) An expert in a particular field, especially as called upon to provide comment or opinion in the media; a commentator, a critic.'?????

Also :

'Pundit

    n
 1  an expert' (too!)

The article is giving a direct quote from another source, and it's not surprising that the source appears to have a different definition of the word than Wiktionary does. We wouldn't change the direct quote just because we think it means something different than the source thinks it does. The bigger issue: The direct quote does not come from the Intelligencer source in the body but from the Fast Company source in the lead. Larry Hockett (Talk) 22:44, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2021

Current Medical history for Oz is thin and uses poor sources such as dead links and links to PBS articles from 1999 which are out-of-date. This edit should include everything currently present with good sources alongside key aspects of his career left out such as when Oz began working at a hospital in 1986:

Oz first began his medical career carrying out his residency at the Presbyterian Hospital in New York City, then-affiliated with Columbia University, in 1986 after being hired by Eric Rose. During his residency, Oz would earn the Blakemore research award four times by 1995. In April 1995, he and colleague Jerry Whitworth founded the Cardiac Complementary Care Center after the hospital's Rosenthal Center proved unable to perform clinical trials. It was described as "the most evolved mind-body program currently operating at one of the 'big six' institutions" by New York by 1998. The publicity generated for Oz, culminating in a profile for The New York Times Magazine in July 1995, which although positive would detail Oz's collaboration with an "energy healer" who would treat his patients prior to surgery, created tension with hospital administration who expressed alarm at Oz's use of therapeutic touch techniques, which he dropped following backlash. Oz and Whitworth's professional relationship grew strained due to the attention Oz would bring, with Whitworth recounting to Vox in 2015 his pleas for Oz to "stop the media circus." By 2000, Whitworth departed the center, which Oz reopened that same year as the Cardiovascular Institute at the NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital, where he serves as director.

Oz has helped develop numerous devices and procedures related to heart surgery, including the MitraClip and the left ventricular assist device (LVAD), and by 2015 held a number of patents related to heart surgery. In 1996, Oz received more media publicity alongside Rose following their work on a successful heart transplant for Frank Torre, brother of New York Yankees Joe Torre, just before the 1996 World Series which Joe Torre was playing. Rose was disinterested in the media attention, but Oz "loved it." Oz would become a professor at the Columbia University Vagelos College of Physicians and Surgeons in 2001. Following controversy in 2015, a group of physicians led by Henry I. Miller of Stanford University demanded Columbia remove Oz from the faculty for his alleged "disdain for science and for evidence-based medicine." Columbia defended Oz and dismissed calls for his termination.

69.80.138.242 (talk) 18:48, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done. I've shuffled some of the sentences around into chronological order, as well as some gentle copy-editing. Nice work! ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 23:07, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Medical career

This article seems to be missing important details about Oz's medical career. I have been debating how this might be improved and welcome the feedback and assistance of other editors. Julia Belluz charted Oz's career, including his interest in fringe medical treatments which manifested in his cofounding the Cardiac Complementary Care Center in the 90s and how he invited a "reiki master" into the operating room. There are 1995 and 2010 articles in the NY Times that might be useful as references. ScienceFlyer (talk) 16:59, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

And now 2021 --Nbauman (talk) 21:08, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

"Politics"

I added information about Oz's political affiliation back to the page because there are references for it and it seems pretty public. I don't think it's soapboxing to have a brief, neutral mention of something that's a fairly significant part of his public image. It'd be different if the information was presented in a critical or unfair way, but this doesn't really seem like it. DevonLevin (talk) 00:07, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Adding to this sections as it’s somewhat related in that I agree DevonLevin that the neutrality here is inappropriate in that it masks Dr. Oz’s position and the driver of his 2020-2022 notability. It’s been well documented in many reliable sources that Dr. Oz has publicly called for the resignation of Dr. Fauci, and he states his reasons. BLP violation deleted per TPO With Covid being such a hot issue, this information should really be added. This article is just one of many to outline his position.PoliticMurray (talk) 15:41, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2022

Change: "Rose later remarked that while he was disinterested in the media attention, Oz "loved it."" To: "Rose later remarked that while he was uninterested in the media attention, Oz "loved it.""

Current form is a misuse of the word "disinterested", which means not being invested (usually meaning financially), as opposed to "uninterested", which means not interested. 108.2.213.248 (talk) 17:23, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The primary meaning of the word matches its use in prose.

disinterested - adjective - not influenced by considerations of personal advantage. Definition of disinterested 1a: not having the mind or feelings engaged (see ENGAGED sense 1) : not interested ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:05, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Surgeon?

Is there a reason why he's not described as a surgeon (or former surgeon at least), or doctor, in the intro? It's kind of significant. In its current form it sounds like he's as much a doctor as Dr. Dre, when, despite all his shortcomings, he is an actual doctor. -R. fiend (talk) 00:43, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I reverted because it actually already did -- last line in the first paragraph. Happy editing! GordonGlottal (talk) 13:38, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2022

Please change: Rose later remarked that while he did not enjoy by the media attention, Oz "loved it". To: Rose later remarked that while he did not enjoy the media attention, Oz "loved it".

I removed the erroneous "by" from the sentence. Gaoheshuai (talk) 00:29, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting that. Done. --Hipal (talk) 03:44, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Infobox photo

I noticed that the infobox photo is edited, and portions of the top corners of the photo are completely black. Looking at photos in WikiCommons, it looks like slim pickins. Given that Oz is going to increase in public appearances, there should be an influx of better photos. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 18:41, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Blakemore research award

According to the Columbia web site, the Blakemore Prize is an annual award that Oz won in 1991. A 1995 NY Times article states "During his residency at Columbia-Presbyterian he won the prestigious Blakemore research award four times." and this is reflected in the present Wikipedia article. How to resolve this discrepancy? ScienceFlyer (talk) 19:25, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2022

Mehmet Oz owns many companies including the Asplundh Tree Expert Co. Source is I live in Pennsylvania. Let’s do a better job than some 8 year old’s 10 seconds of REsearch as our ‘information’ followed up by pantheons of moderator righteousness — completely ‘convinced’ honesty and accuracy are the problem. 2600:1016:B02A:8C73:4CE8:8CF4:781D:7C36 (talk) 12:07, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:10, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Lead revert -- faith healing and paranormal

@PerpetuityGrat: Not sure why you reverted my addition to the lead RE: Faith healing and paranormal beliefs. Please search the article text for "faith" and for "paranormal" and you will find both amply cited and verified by Reliable Sources. Please self-revert your removal. These are a significant and widely noted part of the learning Dr. Oz presents in his public and published appearances. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 22:29, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Whoops, totally my bad. The addition of faith healing and paranormal beliefs had a citation, and I didn't see anything in that source that supported that; didn't realize that portion was well cited and mentioned later in the article. I self reverted, thanks for calling attention to that. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 23:39, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Concerns regarding "He has promoted pseudoscience"

"He has promoted pseudoscience"

The left-wing biases on wikipedia are getting worse. What about the clear pseudoscience on the left that you can change your gender? Should Elon Musk buy wikipedia, too?

93.206.57.119 (talk) 20:32, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Ah, the gender thing. It isn't Pseudoscience, it is Social Science!!! -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 22:11, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Not helpful Roxy. 93.206.57.119 (who will likely not check this talk page), if you have a source that refutes the premise that Oz has promoted pseudoscience, please add that to the article or mention it here, thanks. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 22:16, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Do loosen up, PG. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 23:18, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

And...done. WP:DENY SPECIFICO talk 23:21, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Error

At the time I'm posting this, this Wikipedia article contains the text "Mustafa" [Mehmet's father] "was born in Bozkır, a small town in southern Turkey, and graduated at the top of his class at Cerrahpaşa Medical School in 1950 and" etc.. Nobody can have graduated from Cerrahpaşa Medical School in 1950. Cerrahpaşa wasn't founded until 2018. The normal way for Wikipedia to contain information of this type would be to follow the syntax of (but not the particulars of) "graduated from Storrs Agricultural School (now the University of Connecticut)" if he did graduate from that medical school at some point when it had a different name. Please fix.2600:8804:8800:11F:1C64:8308:33BC:E2D6 (talk) 07:24, 20 May 2022 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

Wrong IPA

The article states that Öz's name is pronounced [mehˈmet dʒeɲˈɟiz øz]. That indicates that the 'C', in 'Cengiz', is pronounced as [dʒ], which is to say a [d] (Voiced dental/alveolar/postalveolar plosive) followed by a ʒ (Voiced postalveolar fricative). This is, of course, completely wrong. As pretty much any source can confirm, the 'C', in 'Cengiz' (and all other Turkish writing), is pronounced as [d͡ʒ]. (Voiced postalveolar affricate)--155.4.221.27 (talk) 08:24, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
I would like to further point out: There is a word دج, which is pronounced as [dʒ] (i.e. a voiced dental/alveolar/postalveolar plosive followed by a voiced postalveolar fricative), and absolutely not as [d͡ʒ]. There can be absolutely no doubt or arguing, that [dʒ]≠[d͡ʒ]. They are completely different, pronounced completely differently, sound completely differently, and written completely differently. (in Turkish orthography, e.g., [dʒ] would be written 'dj', where [d͡ʒ] is written as 'c'. Very different, indeed)--155.4.221.27 (talk) 08:55, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

The IPA chart says, Affricates and double articulations can be represented by two symbols joined by a tie bar if necessary (emphasis added). And since Turkish doesn't contrast affricates and stop–fricative sequences unlike Polish, a tie bar is not necessary. Nardog (talk) 17:34, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Compare tone of this article since he declared his Senate candidacy

Go back about about 18 months or so and read the article. I think it's a much more neutral tone overall and reads far more like a legitimate encyclopedia entry. There were was still plenty of info concerning his dabbling in alternative medicine and downright quackary, but it was presented in a more impassionate way.

Then read the current state of the article. Big difference, much more negative and harsh and absolute. Funny how when people enter politics their wikipedia articles tone drastically changes instantly.

It's stuff like this that makes Wikipedia's reputation so awful in regards to anything the least bit political. Any topic or person that strays into the current political zeitgeist immediately gets hijacked by people pushing a POV. Zaqwert (talk) 22:22, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

You may have a point here, but you have to propose specific changes.FrankForAllAndBirds (talk) 08:45, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Firing from presidential council

I removed some material that was not included the citation provided. If this removed material can be cited, then the lead and subsection can perhaps address that. Malerooster (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Early life added to lede based upon britannica.com

This may be a bit undue in the lede. --Hipal (talk) 22:05, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

It is called "lead". "Lede" is different unless you are English I guess. --Malerooster (talk) 00:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

which you are, ok. Malerooster (talk) 00:01, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

incomplete

what year did Oz get U.S. citizenship? 100.15.131.54 (talk) 19:15, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Probably in 1960 when he was born in the U.S. city of Cleveland, Ohio. —ADavidB 00:02, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Stances on political issues recency

In some of the stances, his 2022 position is listed first; in others last. Should this be standardized? I think in other articles the stances are listed chronologically. Wozal (talk) 22:55, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it should be consistent. I'd expect there's a standard to follow, as often as this comes up with political candidates. Maybe some entries from Wikipedia:Good_articles/Social_sciences_and_society#Politics_and_government have had some discussions on this. --Hipal (talk) 16:41, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

crudités

please add his love for unconventional crudités Rbadell (talk) 01:48, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

and how many houses he owns! Extremely Online (talk) 15:30, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Financial involvement with supplements Multi-Level Marketing

As reported by The Daily Beast, The Daily Caller, Politico, LA Times, and National Council Against Health Fraud, Oz has a long financial relationship with Usana, a multi-level marketing company that sells supplements featured on the Dr. Oz show. Is this something that should be reflected in the article? There aren't too many independent sources for this immediately available, which is why I would like to be thoughtful about any additions. The NY Times has reported generally on the Senate disclosure filing. I will also add to the Usana and Dr. Oz show talk pages. ScienceFlyer (talk) 01:06, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't see mention in the NYTimes article. I'm not sure if any of the rest are of the quality that we should use. --Hipal (talk) 02:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

To clarify, I meant that the NY Times "reported generally" on the Senate disclosure but did not specifically mention the payments from the MLM. And I added the Daily Caller, not because I think it's reliable but because it shows that it was reported in both a right-wing source and by the left-leaning Daily Beast. Politico is also considered generally reliable for politics. ScienceFlyer (talk) 03:16, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of the RSN discussions for Politico. The Politico article may be enough. The LA Times piece reads more as an opinion, but lends additional weight for including mention of Oz' relationship with Usana. --Hipal (talk) 16:40, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Medical research on animals

Oz has a new controversy: possible problems with his medical research on animals[1] we'll probably have to give this one a couple days and see how it evolves. Andre🚐 03:56, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

It's seems to be an old controversy, but the accusations regarding Oz specifically were vague and there weren't reliable sources suitable for Wikipedia, at least prior to this week when there has been more independent reporting. Also this news site did some original reporting, interviewing the veterinarian who complained. ScienceFlyer (talk) 04:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah, interesting. Philadelphia Inquirer is running a piece that references that [2] Andre🚐 04:23, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2022

In abortion section please change "pregnant person's" to "mother's". The present wording is a strange ambiguity that is unnecessary since it can only be a mother, since this is a sex specific medical context not a general one. Thank you. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 02:07, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done If you're pregnant, you're not yet a mother. So the suggested change doesn't work. ScienceFlyer (talk) 02:10, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done Both of the sources cited in that sentence use "mother", so we should follow suit. 25stargeneral (talk) 02:14, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Rgding öz's 'sufism' (tasavvuf)

I'd updated, a little while back, the blp's referencing this as a "sect" into describing Sufism as a "mystical form of islam." (For what it's worth, the English term "mysticiam" in Turkish apparently translates to gizemcilik.) Also note how this abcnews piece[3] defines - and expands on - it as:

"a millennia-old practice in Islam that emphasizes a direct relationship with God. Both Sunni and Shiite Muslims practice Sufism." 'It's much more mystical, much more interested in taking away the 99% of reality that we think is there and looking at the real, important 1% that is beneath that veneer -- the true connection with God,' Oz told [Henry Louis Gates Jr. for PBS...] in 2009. 'Sufism is just kind of like, "I'm spiritual,"' Imam Abdullah Pocius, the leader of a mosque in Philadelphia, explained to ABC News. 'It's like when an American says, "Well I'm not really into organized religion, but I'm spiritual," you know?' "

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:19, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

The article is about Oz though, not sufism. The article is about Oz, not an ideology or faith/sect. Not sure what else should be provided other than what's provided currently. Ex, Oz is a Republican, but there isn't a paragraph or multiple sentences on Republicanism philosophy or info on what other people think about Republicanism, conservatism, populism, etc. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 19:26, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Adjusting nuance at descriptor "sect," at the appropriately-tiny section about öz's self-description of 'sufi' w rgd his religious background. Where it previously said that he "align[s] his views with sufism, a mystical islamic sect (emphasis mine)," I'd deleted the word "sect" (diff):

1. 24nov2017 ny times: "Sufism, known as tasawwuf in the Arabic-speaking world, is a form of Islamic mysticism that emphasizes introspection and spiritual closeness with God. While it is sometimes misunderstood as a sect of Islam, it is actually a broader style of worship that transcends sects, directing followers’ attention inward."
2. The Persian Sufis, by Cyprian Rice (1964)[4] [5] "The Sufi phenomenon is not easy to sum up or define. The Sufis never set out to found a new religion, a mazhab or denomination. They were content to live and work within the framework of the Moslem religion, using texts from the Quran much as Christian mystics have used to Bible to illustrate their tenets. Their aim was to purify and spiritualize Islam from within, to give it a deeper, mystical interpretation, and infuse into it a spirit of love and liberty. In the broader sense, therefore, in which the word religion is used in our time, their movement could well be called a religious one, one which did not aim at tying men down with a new set of rules but rather at setting them free from external rules and open to the movement of the spirit." "There is a Sufi way, a Sufi doctrine, a form of spiritual knowledge known as ‘irfan or ma’rifat, Arabic words which correspond to the Greek gnosis. Sufism has its great names, its poet-preachers, its ‘saints’, in the broad, irenical sense in which the word can be used. Names Maulana Rumi, Ibn al ‘Arabi Jami, Mansur al Hallaj are household words in the whole Islamic world and even beyond it."
   --Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 18:15, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Turkish military service

The addition of the Turkish military service to the infobox is confusing, even for me. I can only find that he served in the Turkish military for two years during the 1980s, but I cannot find the specific year. Maybe there's a source out there that can shed light to his service, because right now it looks like he actively holds allegiance and is serving in the Turkish military, despite having served roughly forty years ago. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 17:45, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I added an serviceyears parameter, though unorthodox, to clarify. With most military infobox portions, the serviceyears is listed, which conveys at which time they served. Since the years were not present for Oz, and since the exact years is unknown (to my knowledge), I added the parameter with the most specific information I could find according to the sources. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 13:50, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

It seems that Oz's campaign is choosing not to answer questions about his military service. Any kind of comment would invite further media response. So we probably won't get more info on this part of his life. For now, it seems we will have to leave it as a blip on his page.FrankForAllAndBirds (talk) 08:45, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Where does the "two year" claim even come from? 98.111.200.172 (talk) 13:17, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Since we don't have a source for two years, and have two sources for 60 days in the early 1980s, I've updated the infobox accordingly. —ADavidB 23:07, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Sourcing for Turkish military service

A somewhat new user asked about the subject's military experience over at the Teahouse and I'm passing the question to those more knowledgeable about the sources.

It regards the length of time that Dr. Oz served in the Turkish Army. In the wikipage introduction, it states six weeks to maintain his Turkish citizenship. But later on in the article, it states two years: "Oz served in the Turkish Army during the 1980s for six weeks of mandatory training specifically for citizens who reside in foreign countries, to maintain his Turkish citizenship." "spent two years in the Turkish army after college to maintain his dual citizenship." Did he serve twice or is this just a typo, and, if so, can you pass this on to the editor?

I'm seeing the two year claim cited by this source which on inspection does not so report. The subject and his campaign may not have provided much information on this subject. I'm no content expert. What's the correct info, and how would we know? BusterD (talk) 17:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I've removed the claim of two years, which as you wrote was not supported by the provided source. An apparently unsourced part of the lead says 6 weeks, but an article in The Focus says it was 60 days, which I may add to the article. Regardless, Oz has said he will renounce Turkish citizenship if elected (also covered in the article). I've also responded at the Teahouse. —ADavidB 19:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. It's weekends like these we get the extra eyes and the nice helpers might be added to our volunteer base, so everybody be nice. BusterD (talk) 19:51, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Can we find more than one source which agrees? Using a single source may lead to more discussion. BusterD (talk) 20:03, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Another source (ABC News) is added. —ADavidB 20:22, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. BusterD (talk) 20:31, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

But the infobox still says years of service 1980-1982. Pennsylvania2 on 5 December 2021 added infobox items used for military people. Hipal posted about Military service in infobox on the talk page on 5 December 2021, and reverted. Asumish on 9 February 2022 put similar infobox items back in. Due to later editing the infobox now says he was in the Turkish army from 1980 to 1982, which no longer corresponds to the article text. In 2015 there was a proposal that Infobox military person should be restricted to people whose notability rested at least in part on their military service. It didn't happen. Possibly, on those grounds, the items for Military career -- "Allegiance Turkey", "Service/Branch Turkish Land Forces", "Years of service 1980-1982" -- could all be removed. But at this point I'm only pointing to years of service as problematic. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:12, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I've updated the infobox to match the sourcing in the article text. —ADavidB 23:09, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

President's Council on Sports, Fitness, and Nutrition

I was bold and started reducing the weight given this. I think the quotes need trimming and only references that put it in historical context be used. If we have any refs that demonstrate he did something of importance as part of the council, we should highlight those. --Hipal (talk) 00:44, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I've trimmed to something minimal. None of the references used provide any noteworthy historical context nor claim he did anything of importance in the position. --Hipal (talk) 16:48, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Subsection on China

I'm not sure on the need for the section on China in the Foreign Policy part of "Political positions", consisting only of a statement saying that Oz did business in China and then said he'd be "tough on China". His business involvements don't really bear relevance to the political positions firstly, and as a whole the statements don't contradict each other (as I said in my original removal), but even taking that at its best, the source provided (Insider) isn't reliable for politics per WP:RSP. I appreciate that this was rewritten to make it more NPOV-compliant, but I'm still not sure it's really relevant here. Pinging @InvadingInvader for their thoughts, would appreciate any input from other editors. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 12:58, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

The lack of a strong reliable source suggests removal to me. —ADavidB 17:13, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

I'll try to find other sources Politico covers Oz's ties to China and his attack ads against McCormick in this article; thanks for notifying me on Insider's RSP entry. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Opening paragraph (American/Turkish or American)?

I'm aware (and this mentioned throughout the article) that he is a dual US/Turkish citizen and served in the Turkish army, but that appears to have been done to maintain his dual citizenship. His birth, education, residence and so on have all been in the United States. His political career and talk show were in the U.S, not Turkey. His dual citizenship and Turkish army service are mentioned extensively in the opening paragraph and throughout the body of his biography. Plus, it seems like his American citizenship is more important to him if he was apparently willing to (hypothetically) renounce it had he won a seat.[6]

The last discussion looking at his archive pages was back in 2006/2007 and bumped in 2014 before being archived. Although it looks like there was some debate about his dual citizenship situation at the time, there appears to be some agreement on him just being "American"? Usual Wiki guidelines for this stuff like MOS:FIRSTBIO and WP:ETHNICITY appeared to be mentioned and or, quoted in past discussion.

But since this 2022 and not 2007, I'm opening this discussion again? Clear Looking Glass (talk) 06:40, 17 November 2022 (UTC)