Talk:Mat (profanity)/Archive 1

Almost Useless Article

The authorial voice here isn't even pretending to sound authoritative. The first sentence is helpful, then the second part of the introduction sounds like it's written by a sixth grader. No references can be found in most of the article. I don't know which remarks are even worth leaving because so much is unsourced. This needs an overhaul. Most importantly, someone whose first language is English needs to have a go.Youdontsmellbad (talk) 05:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

How incredibly rude and disrespectful! One should be more constructive in critiquing an article. Cuvtixo (talk) 17:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The etymologies are very unconvincing and hypothetical, and definely not facts. Please provide the reference and a atatement whose these opinions are. mikka (t) 20:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

If etymologic studies are worth anything, the greatest authorities in the field of Slavic and PIE etymology have been Julius Pokorny and Max Vasmer. Their dictionaries are available online. Click [ tiny url considered as spam, therefore removed ] to consult the appropriate entries. --Ghirlandajo 14:05, 30 July 2005 (UTC) Vimax

See the article on check mate and its etymology, mat it says is derived from old Persian meaning "helpless", etc :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_mate — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kasvi84 (talk • contribs) 12:21, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

These etymologies are the most scientifically-correct mat etymologies existing nowadays, though there can be no certain facts in etimology at all. I know a very few good articles on mat, this one is great, especially the survey of common usage of those words is flawless. For you to know, I am Russian and live in Russia. -- 80.255.152.206 17:56, 15 Soktyzh.

From http://www.pipss.org/document93.html: "Russian Army Mat as a Code System Controlling Behaviour in the Russian Army by Vadim Mikhailin Abstract: This text is to be a shortened, restructured and based on somewhat another factological foundation version of my article “Russkii mat kak muzhskoi obstsennyi kod: problema proiskhozhdeniia i evoliutsiia statusa”, published in # 43 of Novoe Literaturnoe Obozrenie. Tracing the genesis of mat to the specific modes of behaviour, peculiar to the archaic male warrior bands, I’m going to show that the military milieu (and some other, structurally close to it social strata), has always been – and remain – absolutely adequate for the mat speaking. Moreover, mat has always carried on within these strata rather specific function connected with creating of one’s identity as a military, and its use offers various and sometimes the only possible means of impact at one’s equal or subordinate (or even superior). As a matter of fact, mat is a basis for a whole code system, controlling different military behaviour practices. The problems of the freshers’ adaptation and of the national specificities in the late Soviet and modern Russian army are to be considered with special respect."

Fortunately there is still the Russian wiki page, which has not been edited into oblivion like this article. Click on it and run google translate if you want to learn about mat. DonPMitchell (talk) 16:48, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

govno (Russian говно)

I thought this word wasn't part of mat and that it was considered a lesser swear.

Yes, it is a lesser swear but still it's obscene and shouldn't be used in public. It's more rude than English shit which is equivalent in obscenity to Russian der'mo (дерьмо). There's also a highly vulgar but not that vulgar as mat, verb dristat' (дристать) meaning to shit and its derivative noun drishch (дрищ) meaning both shit (especially fluid) and diarrhoea. Also there is a rather noun sran (срань) vulgarity of which is disputed for it's used only in a semi-vulgar phrase sran' gospodnya (срань господня), literally shit of God, seemingly introduced into Russian by translators of American movies in 80's who simply translated the phrase holy shit. -- 80.255.152.206 17:56, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

May I say a word? Drishch is actually not fluid. At least it's very rare that people use it in this meaning. Drishch is often used to refer to a person, weak immature man, dweeb.

I am agree with that. "Говно" is a coarse word (more offensive than "dermo" or "shit"), but not belong to "mat', and it has a common Slavic root 'Govno', mean 'жизнь' or 'life' f.e. on the Polish. "Mat" words come _only_ from sexual life and sexual derivatives.

Ivan.

In Polish, "gówno" means "shit" not "life", and is slightly vulgar word. It's interesting, tht most of other "mat" words have exact equivalents in Polish. E.g. zajebać, ujebać, wjebać, wyjebać, odjebać, przyjebać, pojebać, najebać, zjebać, podjebać, przejebać (with the meanings og "to steal, to kill", "to finish off, to get dirty", "to eat, to beat", "to kick", "to f* off, to get pretty dress", "to hit, to say sth without thinking", "to get mad, to get f*", "to put a lot, to beat, to get drink", "to scream at someone", "to steal, to get", "to lose, to be in hopeless situation"). And of course a lot of other derivatives. In Polish you can also have conversation using exlusively swear words. Szopen (talk) 08:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a brutal word, which cannot utilize widespread Валерий Пасько (talk) 13:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC) You forgot about жопа zhopa "butt". Does not refer to mat. Now this word is heard on TV.5.143.154.76 (talk) 09:44, 25 March 2014 (UTC)igo

Famous usage (consider using in the body of the article)

Kirkorov's press conference

Russian pop-star Philipp Kirkorov had the following exchange with Ms Aroyan, a corresponden, at his press conference that was held in Rostov on Don on May 20, 2004:

KIRKOROV: I am disturbed by your pink blouse, your tits and your microphone... I feel "po khuyu" (i.e., I do not care) what you will write about me. I do not like nonprofessionals. That's not the place for nonprofessionals.

AROYAN: You should learn to behave yourself — "zvezda" ("star" in Russian).

KIRKOROV: Yes... Pizda! (rhymes with "zvezda").

Russian text of this exchange:

— (1) Ф. Киркоров: Меня раздражают Ваша розовая кофточка, Ваши сиськи и Ваш микрофон.

— (2) Ф. Киркоров: А? Да мне… да мне по-хую, как Вы напишете… Так же, как и Вы… Я не люблю непрофессионалов! Непрофессионалам тут делать нечего!

— (3) И. Ароян (презрительно): А вы научитесь себя вести. "Звезда".

Ф. Киркоров (рифмуя): Да… Пизда!

I don't think it's relevant in the context of this article, though it may be useful for the article Filipp Kirkorov. -- 80.255.152.206 17:56, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I also doubt that this exchange of words is relevant. It may be/may have been relevant at the time when the dialog was made famous. But no longer. I suppose better examples can be found. Peter the Great was known for his swearing. As was Pushkin. Examples from their dialogs (if any survive) could be used instead. Dmitriid 11:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Classical poetry with mat

Mikhail Lermontov

So, I am not going to pay

However, If you are a simple blyad'

You should consider an honor

To be acquainted to the cadet's khuy !

Russian:

Итак, тебе не заплачу я:

Но если ты простая блядь,

То знай: за честь должна считать

Знакомство юнкерского хуя!

The authenticity of such "unknown" verses of classic authors is highly disputed. The only known prominent mat poet was Ivan Barkov. -- 80.255.152.206 17:56, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I've seen an antient (18xx year) book of A.S.Pushkin poetry illustrated with engraving. Those pictures had poetic texts below, authored by Pushkin. Something like this (from beginning of "Eugene Onegin", just next page to famous

My uncle -- high ideals inspire him;

but when past joking he fell sick,

he really forced one to admire him --

and never played a shrewder trick.

[1]):

Сам Александр Сергеич Пушкин,

Опершись хуем о гранит

С мосье Онегиным стоит

or

The Alexander S. Pushkin

Is standing next to Mr.Onegin

Sticking dick into granite

Here we are :-) --jno 12:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Ваня лысый Ваня блядь Ваня хочет пососать.

Что-то Ваня седня грустный видно хуй сосал невкусный.

Ivan Barkov haven't written Luka Mudischev. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.80.111.200 (talk) 18:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

SPERM

The word "malafya" (малафья) in Russian mat in value of sperm is used very seldom so not all Russian know value of it a word. For a word sperm, is used a word koncha (конча) from a verb konchit' (кончить), that is to receive Orgasm. <unsigned>

This is not mat, just slang. The major distinction of mat is its emotional load. One may have hundreds of slang terms for "penis", but "khuy" is irreplaceable and unbeatable. `'mikka (t) 19:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Yep. I'v been living in Russian for all my life and have never even heard this word! So i don't think such a rare and uncommon word would be any obscene.Chamie-rus 13:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes this word is used rather seldom and does not sound offensive, but as for "Koncha" - I've never heard about this word. It is used by nobody exept may be some just rude and non-cultural youngs. And mat is - NOT the slang of young people!195.239.5.160 01:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I was using malafya, as well as many of my friends, in the early 1980's Moscow, Russia. It is an obscenety, but not mat. I remember singing this verse

  И лопались гандончики      - and condoms were popping
  Как детские пистончики      - like little kid's amorces
  И текла по ляжкам молофья - and sperm ran down the thighs

Cubbi 04:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

This word is definetly not mat. I agree, "koncha" is more like it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.223.34.44 (talk) 04:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I worked in areas when the utilisation of mat is the norm of speaking but I never heard a word koncha Валерий Пасько (talk) 14:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

From deleted article, to merge

Хуй (khuy, [huj]) is a Russian expletive whose literal meaning is penis. It's an incredibly common word in Russian-speaking countries and has quite a lot of meanings. It also has numerous derivatives that describe various actions. Common phrases include: "Пошел нахуй", "Иди нахуй", "Хуй тебе" (approx. "fuck you", word-for-word trans. "go on the khuy", "khuy for you" ), "Дохуя" ("shitload"), "Похуй" ("it's irrelevant", "fuck it", "I don't care"), "Хуёво" ("very bad"), "Охуенно" or "Охуительно" ("awesome!"), "Нихуя себе" ("awesome", extreme surprise), "Нахуя?" ("what the fuck for?"), "Прихуеть" (be surprised), "Хуячить" or "Хуярить" (to beat smth or move fast), "Расхуярить" (to destroy smth), "Похуярить" (to go somewhere fastly), "Хуйнуть" (hit somebody, drink smth), "Охуеть" (to be surprised or to become impudent), "Хуйня" ("bullshit"), "Хуевинка" or "Хуйнюшка" (small, tiny thing), "Хуясе!" (exclamation of wonder), "хуйнуться" (to fall down), "Хуева туча" (great number of smth), "Отхуярить" (brutal strike of somebody), "Нахуярить" (to fill smth. with), "Хуеплет" (Lier), "Хули?" ("for what fucking reason?")

"Остохуеть" (to bother)

Thanks. How come half of this article got deleted by someone? All the information about the words are gone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DonPMitchell (talk • contribs) 17:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

"Прохуярить" (to break through smth or to come trough smth), "Хуярить"(To work with many efforts) Валерий Пасько (talk) 14:10, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

"Прохуярить" also has another meaning - to lose/waste/miss something due to carelessness, inattention and imprudence. It also can refer to a person "Прохуярил ты такую бабу!" - You've fucking slipped such a damn good broad!"

"Хуячить"- I think we must add the word.

Italics

Great article. It would be a little easier for non-Russian readers if words were not spelled with Russian italic fonts. DonPMitchell 23:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Suka and sukin sin

common value for "suka" (Russian: сука) is "dog female", "bitch". it is a "printable" word. while often used as an offensive. --jno 12:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes! Word "suka" is not mat, but it rude word. 89.20.97.70 10:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC) Russin guy.

Suka and its derivatives shouldn't be counted as mat since they still hold a meaning of "female dog" and is widely used in this non-offensive context. Therefore, they should be treated as "imbetsil" (imbecile), "koz'yol" (goat) and another mild obsceneties: it's not polite to call someone by these words, but they're acceptable in general; a trait which mat words do not have. — xyzman 09:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

ebat/yebat

("yebat" changet to "ebat", because "yebat" means "to kick", for example "yebat in your face")

I'll not revert. But you confuse "ебать" (would read as "yebat", means "to have sex") and "въебать" (vyebat, "to kick") or "уебать" (uebat, "to kick" as well). --jno 16:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

examples in okhuyet

The article currently states:

• okhuyet ' (охуе́ть) or euph. ofiget ' (офиге́ть) - to go out of one's mind (go crazy), with the derived meaning 1. to be very surprised, 2. to be cheeky. Example 1: Я слушал его и тихо охуевал - я слушал его и не верил своим ушам/ Я был в шоке от того, что он говорил. Example 2: Босс совсем охуел: зажал ползарплаты за два опоздания - Босс совсем обнаглел: удержал половину моей зарплаты за два опоздания.

Since both the examples' slang and literal meaning are in Russian, I think this part does not add anything for the average reader, who will not speak Russian. I suggest changing the literal meaning to English and possibly add in parentheses (parenthesises?) how and where the mat-word is used.

My Russian is very limited, but I think the meaning is something like:

1. I listened to him and didn't believe his (? usham). / I was in shock because of what he said.
2. The boss went completely crazy: he withheld all of my pay because of two delays.

--138.227.189.10 11:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Otyebis' ! (Отъебись!)

One more widely used word - otyebis' (отъебись), means do not bother me. It is a funny "chastushka" about famous russian singer - Alla Pugacheva announsed from stage by his former husband - Philipp Kirkorov

В зале публика кричала:
Спой нам, Аллочка, на бис
А певица отвечала:
Ну-ка зритель, отъебись!

The public in the hall was crying
Please sing for us, Alla one more time
And she (the singer) answeared
Hey, spectators, otyebis'

You may use it as well :) 195.239.5.160 01:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

khuy (Russian хуйчик)

The huic etymology cannot seriously be given for this word. It is to wide spread in slavic languages for a non-slavic origin. There could be section with popular etymologies (huic, mongol origins...) and why they became popular (because mat was perceived as to rude and had to be someone else's fault).--Charlik 13:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I had a look at http://www.philology.ru/linguistics2/kovalyov-05.htm and really do believe that the ludicrous etymologies should be delt with seperatedly. The Mongol etymology can be handled with more care as it is so wide spread, even though unfounded.--Charlik 10:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Split this article?

I believe this article has become too long and confusing. Possibly the individual words could be transformed into separate articles (listing them once but not with all the detailled derived expressions and words).--Charlik 08:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Pizdets, blyad

Can somebody please explain pizdets? This is what redirects here. 166.217.4.170 (talk) 19:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

It meens that everything is going wrong :)) 92.243.166.118 (talk) 15:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

... or awesomely OK! It's universal, see. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.201.21.180 (talk) 14:11, 9 August 2009 (UTC) no, you wrong. Pizdets never means OK. you might confuze it with ohuenno — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.159.119.220 (talk) 15:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

You're both right. The main meaning of пиздец is "it's going very badly" or "this is the end" (usually bad end). But this word also may be used as the universal estimation. You can tell me any fact and I can answer "пиздец". - Eternal Sorrow (talk) 23:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

This is wrong

Russian mat is common only in groups consisting solely of males. However, the dialect now is beginning to appear in female-only groups as well --Greenar (talk) 11:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:DICTIONARY

Per WP:DICTIONARY, Wikipedia is not a dictionary or a slang, jargon or usage guide. The section for "key words" and the material relating to "further vocabularly" seem to merit a deletion on these grounds – especially as it is unsourced. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Also, the unsourced part alleging that "in many parts of Russia, the use of mat in a public place constitutes a form of disorderly conduct, punishable under article 20.1.1 of the Offences Code of Russia" looks WP:UNDUE and WP:OR (in which parts). No discussion of this being enforced or unenforced (it's extremely unlikely that anybody gets arrested for using mat). PasswordUsername (talk) 09:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

No contest on not-a-dictionary (although that part has been deleted and restored many times through the life of this article), but how is the reference to the offences code "original research"? I can't think of a more WP:RS. On what grounds do you say it is "extremely unlikely" that it is enforced, and where did "arrest" come into play? It's not Criminal Code, it's Offences code, and although the maximum punishment under 20.1.1 is 15 days jail time, a fine seems more appropriate. Additional references will be needed if we choose to discuss the current and/or historical level of enforcement of the ban of mat in public media, public gatherings, private companies, etc. This could make it an involving section, comparing this attitude with what happens in other countries (like the american Seven Dirty Words) and it could even have a discussion of the boundary between free speech and verbal assault, turning this dictionary of random curse words into an encyclopedia-worthy article. I agree that "parts of Russia" was incorrect, though, the code is in effect in the entire country. --Cubbi (talk) 14:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Cubbi. You observations on the offence code look OK (I'm not an expert - what we really need is a mat specialist). However, the lede looks very suspicious at this point: 1) The practice of mat speaking has existed for only the last twenty or thirty years is contradicted by the quoted classics in the ultimate part of the article. 2) That constructing entire of sentences of mat setting Russian aprart from other languages is lede-worthy stuff - there are well-known ways of stuffing English sentences full of obscenities, save for the prepositions, perhaps, anyway.

As far as clarifying the code with appropriate references, I think you've done a fantastic job. PasswordUsername (talk) 12:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The original editor was trying to reference the cited article, which said "Russian mat is an indispensable attribute of any group consisting solely of males, only recently beginning to get into the females-only groups, and the practices of mat speaking in the mixed groups are to be reduced to the last twenty or thirty years (if to exclude certain practices seen as the ritual ones).", so it's the mixed gender mat that has become common in the last 30 years. Rewording. As for using mat to replace all words of the language, Russian jokes#Taboo vocabulary has an example, but, honestly, I only see it as a joke. --Cubbi (talk) 14:17, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm putting back the first section, and would gladly put back the rest. I don't see how anyone who's actually interested in mat would regard the current version as an improvement, and I can only interpret removing the whole shebang as some kind of rules-lawyering or jobsworthiness. The article is pretty emasculated as it now stands, in my opinion. Consider, regarding what Wikipedia is not, that we've got quite a few pages on individual slang words [in English-speaking regions! a case of systemic bias?]; a treatment of the four pillars of mat does not seen out of line.

And can't we find references, if it's uncited? Perhaps there is difficulty on account of the taboo status, but perhaps not; certainly Anglosphere linguists don't especially steer away from profanities (take James D. McCawley); I don't know how it is in the Russosphere. They certainly merit a treatment, though, far far more than the fly-by-night neologisms that that section of WP:NAD was intended to guard against. (And mind that you're not even presenting straight what WP:NAD principally says! It summarizes itself as

In Wikipedia, things are grouped into articles based on what they are, not what they are called by.

How do you read that and think that it prevents you giving prominent examples of a linguistic phenomenon in the very article dedicated to the phenomenon? Phenomena are not their referents.) 4pq1injbok (talk) 03:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

The core of Russian mat consists of a very small group of roots from which many derivatives are made. An extensive list of derivatives can be found in Alexei Plutser-Sarno's dictionary, which is already cited in the article. The basic roots and a few examples of derivatives certainly can be listed in the article. This is the current situation and i see no need to make a major change. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 07:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Other profanity, insults etc.

Негодяй(Negodyay)-Scoundrel Мошенник(Moshennik)-Scoundrel Дурак(Durak)-Fool, ass. Злая(Zlaya)-Wicked Болонку(Bolonku)-Lapdog Мерзкий(Merzkiy)-Disgusting. Што за чорт?(Shto za chort?)-What the hell? А черт возьми(A chert vozmi)-O hell!

8.26.133.0 (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

These dont count in. Arantz (talk) 21:18, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Камрады знатоки!

Среди вас хоть один англичанин/американец есть? )) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kakolykia (talk • contribs) 09:51, 9 February 2012 (UTC) Кавказец устроит? 87.117.189.70 (talk) 09:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

etymology

Wikipedia says it's cognate with мат<schachmatt. Wiktionary says it comes from "yo mama" jokes. Which is it?--88.73.42.65 (talk) 11:23, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

kher

kher (хер) "cock"; somewhat less offensive than "khuy".... As I know this line is something untrue, and kher is more rude than khuy is. Get russions here please, or I'll change that. Arantz (talk) 21:16, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

i'm a ukrainian, but i know russian. Not saying that this words are not only russian. And no, you are wrong. The word "kher" is not mat at all. This is name of the "Х" letter in the old Cyrillic alphabet, and so is substitution for the actual mat word. Now its using in this context is considered vulgar, but not as mat.

77.52.154.86 (talk) 23:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Lol!

Fail!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lodag9 (talk • contribs) 19:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Some oddities with speech synthesis - Yura87 (talk) 11:00, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

To make Windows 7's default English voice say "Zhopa" (arse) properly, make the "h" in it double (zhhopa). To test, use the speech test line of Windows 7 Speech options. Windows XP and windows 8 (IDK of Vista) fail to say the word, as does eSpeak even when bridged to Windows 7 voicebank - no matter what combination you use.

Question

When watching Russian Dash Cam crash videos, I sometimes hear people say something that sounds like "shoo ka" (literal word sound). I may have it wrong, but does it sound like anything profane? Maybe something equivalent to "oh my god" or "holy shit" of "idiot" that someone might say on immediately seeing a car crash? -- Green Cardamom (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

• As I can suggest, you heard the word сука (suka). Literally it means "female dog". It's not a mat, but naming anybody with this word is very rude. Generally it means "traitor", but can be used as offensive or simply expressive exclamation. Also, it's unisex word, an may be applied not just to a woman. - Eternal Sorrow (talk) 22:57, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
  • "Suka" is often used as a curse along with the word "ebanaya". "suka ebanaya" - literally, this bitch had sex, but in fact can be used as a curse to the person or situation.

Also with other abusive words may replace any words in speech or used to replace the pauses between words. In this feature of Russian mat. Example expressions with the word "хуй" (hui): "нахуя дохуя нахуярили?" (nahuya dohuya nahuyarili?) - Зачем много сделали? (zachem mnogo sdelali?) eng. Why did so many? 212.75.233.5 (talk) 20:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes that's the word, thank you! I'll try it out sometime. When no one can hear me behind the wheel of a car. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 21:09, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources on using "mat" in this sense?

I couldn't find dictionaries that define "mat" as a translation of Russian "мат". Do we have reliable sources that this word can be used this way? Why not "Russian filthy language"?Gleki.arxokuna (talk) 10:59, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Calling it "Russian filthy language" would be original research, unless reliable sources can be provided which affirm that it's the common name in the English language used to describe this topic. Most sources simply refer to it as "mat". --benlisquare_T•C•E 13:16, 23 August 2014 (UTC)