Talk:Lord of the Flies/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Coral Island

I have always regarded Piggy as being Peterkin Gay's incarnation in Lord of the Flies. Unless an authoritative reference can be found, may I suggest the line "Golding used two of the names in his book, and replaced Peterkin with Simon" is amended. --Zipperdeedoodah (talk) 20:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The age of kids

It is unclear from the article what age group do kids belong to. As far as I remember there were several groups: younger kids, older kids (members or orchestra?) and other kids. So can somebody add the approximate age of each category or/and the age for each main character? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilya-42 (talk • contribs) 16:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the book divided the children into the older ones, the younguns, and the chorus (Jack's group). Midorihana みどりはな 23:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The younguns are ages 4-6, the older boys although it never actually says the age are in my opinion 11-13 and the Orchestra members are again about 13 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.110.32.64 (talk) 16:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I have the book right here :P :

The littluns (they're referred to that way) are aged 6+. I don't think it gives any maximum age. The biguns, primarily Ralph and Jack, along with Roger and a few others, are aged probably somewhere around 10-12/13. The "in between" are comprised of Simon, probably the twins, and some of the hunters. They're somewhere in between. I don' think Jack's choir (it's a choir, not an orchestra) has its own separate group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fin Archangel (talk • contribs) 02:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

In-depth Analysis

This page lacks an in-depth analysis of the characters, as well as a summary and discussion of the themes in the book, in the way other notable books have. Since this is quite a popular as well as a "deep" book, perhaps such a section is worth considering.

Some ideas: What was Golding's main point in the book? What would be a logical expelenation to this book and why did he write it, for what reason? Simon: Probably the most mysterious character in the book. He is similar to Jesus in some ways; for example, he is caring, generous, helpful, and he is the pure goodness in the book. Piggy: What role did he play in the story? Why was he the only kid that his hair did not grow? Jack: Why is it that he antagonizes Ralph? Ralph: His leadership qualities and faults. etc, etc, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fin Archangel (talk • contribs) 02:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Should there not be a reference to the nature of the ship? From what I understand, a major feature of the allegory was the fact that the naval officer was appalled at their barbarism, but the book closes on his warship in order to highlight 'civilised' hypocrisy - the children had just been prey to no more original sin and propensity to violence than the civilised world, with its nuclear weapons and warships, had already, and that we in the civilised world are no better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.116.223 (talk) 10:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

the conch

The significance of the conch being shattered during Piggy's death isn't clear here. I think the first paragraph of the plot section should say something about the fact that, in meetings, only the person holding the conch can speak. 128.232.250.213 (talk) 16:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Piggy symbolized reason and intellect. The conch represented order. It was no coincidence that the two of them died together for without reason you have no order and vise versa. It shows the completion of the destruction of civilization.

the island

The island is seen as an allegory of the Garden of Eden. The island is perfect but is soon corrupted by the boys. The choir are first described as a kind of 'creature'. They march in straught lines, giving the impression of a snake, like in the Garden of Eden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seamy94 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

piggy

Piggy was killed by the boulder thrown by Roger causing Piggy to die, the boulder fell from fourty feet high. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.60.243.100 (talk) 22:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC) Piggy's name was also given by his fat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.199.179.88 (talk) 05:11, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Plane crash site is the "scar"

Plane does get mentioned in the book but is mentioned just as the "scar" throughout the rest of the book.

Question: what exactly do you want fixed? LegoKontribsTalkM 22:28, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Golding and Goethe

In recent German editions of the book several lines from J.W. von Goethe (Faust I), reciting the "Herr der Fliegen, ..." is found. I assume this is a marketing gag, as everything concerning Goethe, Schiller or Luther (Martin, not Lex), "adds value" to literature in Germany. Could someone please look at a recent English LotF-edition to verify, whether there is (or is not) a citation from Faust? My English edition from 1969 (Faber) does not have one. I need this for an argument in the German WP (Discussin "Herr der Fliegen"). Thanx a lot --Grey Geezer 11:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grey Geezer (talk • contribs)

stalinian?!

No such word. Substitute either Stalin's or Stalinist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.171.108.159 (talk) 07:46, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. DropShadow (talk) 20:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Allegory

Generally, the conch is seen as a symbol of authority; thus when it is destroyed, so is rational authority. Ralph is often considered symbolic of rational man and Jack instinctive man. Simon is seen as a messianic figure (note his religiously-based name).

The scene of the hallucination with the pig's head is very significant for the theme of the book. The pig's head is called "The Lord of the Flies". This is a reference to Beelzebub--the name literally means "lord of the flies", and thus the Lord of the Flies in this novel could symbolically be taken as the devil. The Lord of the Flies tells Simon that he (the devil) is inside all of them, and that he's the reason that "it's no go--why things are what they are". Thus the theme is that corruption in human society comes from the corruption of individuals. Simon, attempting to reveal this truth to the now hyper-superstitious society on the island, is executed, like a prophetic or Christ figure. Thus the allegory could be that the island starts out as a pristine Eden, and then corrupted humanity appears and attempts to build a society. But due to their internal corruption, the society also becomes corrupted, and they end up destroying themselves. Thus there are parallels to the World Wars and nuclear warfare, but the main allegory is more religious or intended to simply be applied to society as a whole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.232.232.132 (talk) 01:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Jack= Hitler. choir= nazis. they didn't need meat= they didn't need to kill the jews. Piggy and that crowd= the jews. ralph= FAIR HAIRED boy....see any connections??? Hitler liked blonde and blue eyed people. there are SO many quotes to prove it. like "under the threat of the sky" = nuclear war threat during the cold war. it's also got some parallels to the bible. and by the way allegory means it's related to real LIFE. so like not just WWII but the BIGGER picture- the world, human nature. just think about it.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.238.185 (talk) 06:48, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Additional referencing bands

The German band Rage and Swedish band Therion both have songs titled "Lord of the Flies" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.247.155.234 (talk) 13:30, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The band Gatsby's American Dream has a song entitled "Fable," which is about the novel. Flamingotrigger (talk) 06:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

References to Other Works

Golding goes so far as to name-check The Coral Island in the final passage; the Naval Captain mentions it in: "I know. Jolly good show. Like The Coral Island." Please consider including this explicit in-narrative citation in the article.this is all wrong golding is indeed 90 years old and cannot type well U664003803 (talk) 17:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Small grammatical error

Under "plot," fourth paragraph. The sentence reads

While on his way there, he find the pig's head on a stick Jack put there earlier, and begins to hallucinate.

I believe it should read

While on his way there, he finds the pig's head on a stick Jack put there earlier, and begins to hallucinate.

Also, the sentence describing a dead parachuter is brought in rather abruptly - in fact, no mention of a parachuter was made before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chansebout (talk • contribs) 01:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Simon watched Jack plant the pig's head there. He was hiding in the bushes. And the novel says Simon's had seizures in the past, so the hallucination was probably brought on by the seizure. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 22:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Toward the end of "Background": "...from from...". What are "iron primitive instincts"? Is it going to be "civilisation" or "civilization"? Pipersdad (talk) 03:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
"From from" & "iron primitive instincts" fixed. DropShadow (talk) 20:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
As for -ise vs. -ize, we normally don't have a preference (except for US topics), but in this case I guess it would make sense to use whatever spelling is used in the original text of the book itself. I don't have it here, though. —JAO • T • C 09:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The word "metaphor" in the third paragraph is spelled wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.85.176.229 (talk) 05:14, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. (I wonder if this article really needs semi-protection.) —JAO • T • C 09:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

unprotected

Okay, let's see how this page goes unprotected for a while. Be wonderful if some schoolkids expanded some out-of-universe critique section. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Citation

First citation now goes to a blank page for the ALA, might want to remove or fix it. 173.30.250.62 (talk) 06:03, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

"background" section?

Are sparknotes really a valid source for the opinions expressed in the allegory discussion? Shouldn't such interpretation and opinion cite a peer review publication or authority? --68.35.3.66 (talk) 11:55, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Plot tag

Cleaned up plot, as tagged since June, and removed tag. --125.236.223.156 (talk) 03:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi. Your removal was excessive and I've restored the text. I also was restoring British English which you seem to have misunderstood. Cheers, Jack Merridew 08:01, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry mate. I misunderstood your edit summary and thought you were adding Yank text instead. There was a plot tag on the article, the reason for the chop. Cutting it down to the barest synopsis is appropriate per WP:PLOTSUM ('There is no set length for a plot summary though many editors generally recommend 300 to 500 words for a typical novel, movie or similar work. Well-written plot summaries describe the major events in the work but do not describe individual scenes or paraphrase dialog.'). My changes put the word count at 344, rather than as it was at 1,563 before my edit. --125.236.223.156 (talk) 00:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
This is not a typical novel ;) The summary and allegory sections are well supported by refs; present and the many more available. Cheers, Jack Merridew 07:25, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not interested enough to argue, but that's an illogical defence for not following the guidelines. --125.236.223.156 (talk) 14:11, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

(How is it illogical? I took Advanced Formal logic as a core class. I know logic well.)

I've replaced the tag that was there before I tried to improve the article based on that tag. I'm not interested enough to continue trying to fix it. Let someone else get brain damage beating against the brick wall. --125.236.223.156 (talk) 03:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

about certain details

first-as mentioned bellow, there were 3 deaths. although that first kid is rather unmemorable

second-I have a problem with the being evacuated from Britain theory. The book mentions on more than one occasion that they are in the Pacific ocean so i find it more likely that they were going to/coming from a British territory (probably Australia). Also who says they were being evacuated, I don't see why these boys would be important enough to be evacuated and all the other citizens left behind. I was always under the impression that they were en-route to somewhere else when the war broke out.

third-there are missed allegorical importance's? for example the fire is used on more than one occasion and is very important to the book. The Beast is another recurring item that for me represented the unknown and the fear thereof.

fourth-Does Jacks rise to power qualify as a coup? A military coup?

fifth-I got the impression that by themselves the boys formed a primitive religion with a mythology (the beast), idols (the conch), "deliverance" (being rescued) and rituals (the assemblies, keeping the fire, offerings, kill the beast chant). Am I the only one to think this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.111.252.145 (talk) 17:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

plot summary

The plot summary is not very chronological. The general ideas are but the specific sequence of events isnt. 142.167.12.7 (talk) 13:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Allegory?

This article says that Lord of the Flies is an allegory, but the article about allegories says that "fictions that are not allegories may help define the genre by contrast," and lists Lord of the Flies as one of those fictions. Personally, I don't think that Lord of the Flies is an allegory - I've heard that it's an allegory to WWII, but I can see almost no evidence to support that. Of course, my knowledge about literature is limited - any comments would be much appreciated. i would like to edit the allegory section of the main page but unfoartunately i cant even though im a registered user. if someone would please copy and paste the following to the main page."There have been many allegorys spotted in this novel but the most talked about is the resemblece of Simon and Jesus Christ.When simon is haalucinating he sees satan as does Jesus in the dessert.People have also seen simileraties between simons murder and Jesus's death on the cross.Also Jack and Ralph's realationship has been compared to segments in the bible."

NotKasparov (talk) 00:35, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you aware that Golding specifically said that the novel wasn't allegorical? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.59.153 (talk) 23:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Well then... state your source! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Volke Locke (talk • contribs) 17:15, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Influence of the Film on book sales

I bring this up because I recently saw the 1963 film and it had a decidedly independent feel to it, which made me wonder if the film was originally made low key from a low key book and consequently sparked new interest, leading to the book's bestseller status in the 60s, or if the book's sudden bestseller status in the late 50s or very early 60s led to the making of the film. The problem I see is that there's no citation for the references to the book's success. I'm not bringing this up to sharp-shoot, but rather because I am genuinely interested in how the book became so popular. Are there references that could be cited as to the life cycle of this book, or at least, could that portion be clarified in the article? - Diesel Phantom (talk) 02:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The book takes place during WW3, not WW2!

The plane is lost after NUCLEAR bombing of the departure airport.

And in the text we read:

Ralph dredged in his fading knowledge of the world. 

    "We might get taken prisoner by the Reds."

Britain was not in war with REDS in WW2. But presumably in WW3.

In original of Golding there was a detailed description of atomic war. But it was removed by publishers. (See also a German version of Wiki)

The pig killing

In the article it says that the first time Jack and his hunters kill a pig was after they left Ralph's tribe, this is incorrect. They killed the first pig after they abandoned the fire to go hunting, this is also when they first put on the clay face paint, they did not do this when the two groups split. This should be changed to avoid confusion among readers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarkinor (talk • contribs) 01:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this should be changed to avoid confusion. The pig killing/hunting is in the last part of Chapter 1. According to the novel itself, they are just only hunting the pig for food. The pig actually escaped and the hunting wasn't successful. Greatgabriel (talk) 10:23, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

ending

  • The captain at the end WAS aware that they weren't playing a game, as the novel says he could tell Ralph was serious about the murders. Therefore, i suggest the 2nd sentence in that paragraph to be taken out.
  • No, the Captain asks whether two were "killed". Ralph simply assents. This is deliberately vague. Recommend that the paragraph stands as-is. U664003803 (talk) 17:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't the Captain just ask if anyone was killed, himself thinking that some people may have been killed from the crash or by an aminal or something of the sort? And then by the way Ralph says that there have been two, it appears the officer can tell that they were no accident deaths. thats just a thought

There is also an episode of The Simpsons which can be linked with this novel. The kids from Springfield Elementary were going on a school trip when the bus crashes into the ocean. They all get marooned on an island and, just like The Lord of the Flies, they attempt to create a society. Bart Simpson can be seen as Ralph, Milhouse Van Houten with Piggy, Nelson Muntz with Jack and Lisa Simpson with Simon. Could some please add this to the main article.S4R9AM (talk) 19:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

About the Simpsons ep; I don't see why. Simpsons was influenced by LotF of course, but it's pretty irrelevant to LotF itself. 86.149.59.218 (talk) 10:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Abein, 26 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} change "within the mountains" to "on the mountain"

Abein (talk) 11:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Done SpigotMap 12:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Ulluxo, 29 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

Under the subtitle of "The Beast", please change "beaten to death" to "stabbed to death"

Ulluxo (talk) 11:21, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Not done: Welcome and thanks. According to the plot overview (reference 5), they "kill him with their bare hands and teeth." That supports "beaten" better than "stabbed." Do you have a conflicting source? Celestra (talk) 16:09, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Naval Officer

His arrival was said to be a Deus ex machina.

However since the attempt to gain rescue was in fact a major part of the plot, the fact that it happened (all-be-it at a rather convenient time for Ralph) does not relegate it to the "contrivance" of Deus ex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nick Soutter (talk • contribs) 06:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

theme

The theme of the book attemps to show that the defects of society today are in direct corrollation of the defects of human nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Godzilla21 (talk • contribs) 18:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Age

Sorry I am new to this so I do not understand responses to the talk page, but the ages of the older kids are around 12 years old. I put emphisis on 'around' because they all are not 12. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Godzilla21 (talk • contribs) 12:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Conch Shell/Boar's head

It seems to me that the conch shell and the boar's head are complete opposites, and maybe this should be mentioned in the description of the two? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.114.78 (talk) 01:07, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

References in the form "text[12]."

Especially in "Allegorical relationships" the references are between the end of a sentence and the full stop. I think "text.[12]" is more common. Maybe change? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geschichte09 (talk • contribs) 17:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

That is in line with the Manual of Style, see WP:REFPUNC, so you can go ahead and change it. Keith D (talk) 20:22, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

NOT WORLD WAR II

This book doesn't take place during World War II because a reference is made in the beginning of the book about telivision. Telivision wasn't around prior to World War II. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.186.37 (talk) 23:04, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

That is not true contray to popular belief only a few people had personal televisions. But they book could just have some parallels to WW2.Most likly set in The Cold War. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.77.231 (talk) 15:24, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The novel took place BEFORE World War II. I have to edit this article. Greatgabriel (talk) 10:26, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I have seen references that refer to it as Cold War era. 86.149.59.218 (talk) 11:01, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Ralph refers to 'The reds' - the Russian communist block, the book was also published in 1954, this in my opinion makes it unlikely that it was set before world war two. I do however have an alternative theory; that the second world war has continued for some vast length of time (up and including 1954), and that Britain is still at war, this then envelops the book into a greater level of darkness and acceptance, it wold mean that for the 12 (ish) year old Jack his whole life would have been nothing but war, not only that but also some three years before his birth... this bushes an air of revenge from Jack which could be expressed in his actions later on in the book... this is obviously only my opinion and so shouldn't be taken as gospel :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.13.150.73 (talk) 17:42, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

The novel is taken place in the fictional WW3,as Golding talks about nobody being left and "mankinds essentail illness" - war and corruption to hurt. Blazemon (talk) 17:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Britain had a public television service in 1936 before the war - see Alexandra Palace. It closed down in 1939 with the outbreak of World War II and re-opened in 1945-46. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.68.219 (talk) 20:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Major POV issue

This article presents many very particular interpretations of the text as content of the novel. Much of the book is ambiguous or open to varying interpretations and deliberately so. Like many wikipedia articles I have seen, this one does not recount a summary of the plot which limits itself to the text itself but interprets several passages, asserting authorial intent in various places which are wholly the province of the reader. This really ought to be changed and almost totally rewritten. It is like a high school paper on the book. --CRATYLUS22 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.221.111 (talk) 14:17, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

lord of the flies

WHAT IS LORD OF THE FLIES BASED ON? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.43.103.227 (talk) 13:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Lord of the Flies has WWII themes and parallels. It's in response to/ inspired by Coral Island, a book written earlier about boys on an island. Since it's allegorical, Golding's writing is in generalities and themes about human nature and life. Like how the glasses represent human innovation and technology that can be used in both a good and a bad way. For example when Jack starts the fire to like kill Ralph, as opposed to Ralph who uses it for good to light a fire to signal for help. Technology that Golding was talking about was the nuclear warheads (since the Cold War was going on). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.238.185 (talk) 06:39, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if the pig head on a stick is an allusion to Bois Caïman. That would add some quite reactionary subtext to the novel.--87.162.45.214 (talk) 06:08, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The title Lord of the Flies is the literal translation for the Biblical name "Beelzebub", one of the Devil's companions. That may give a clue as to the meaning that Golding intended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.68.219 (talk) 09:32, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Problems?

There is a section titles problemS which is about the single problem that the glasses weren't quite the right kind to be physically accurate. A tiny, insignificant scientific inconsistency mentioned in a throwaway lines about him being nearsighted deserves a section? I'd recommend finding some REAL problems or just removing that section.

--99.6.157.136 (talk) 21:41, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, as it is unsourced. I will try removing the section again. -- Dianna (talk) 02:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Personally I think it's far more than an insignificant problem, and looking into why it's there could well reveal yet another subtlety to this book. Surely the book wasn't written just for those studying English Lit! Piggy and his tribe can be said to represent scientific rationalism. The diverging rather than converging lenses could then be interpreted as a deliberate attempt to suggest they're not quite as rational as they believe themselves to be. If they had been, would the situation on the island have degenerated? Definite echos of science in the 19C when they thought they had the "big picture", and all that was needed is to fill in the small blank areas. Science is still stuggling with those blanks today. In addition as glasses are to do with light consider how the enlightenment is a period where allegorically light[representing intellect] was focused to provide knowledge. Defocusing of light could likewise be an allegory for a loss of knowledge that leads into "savagery"? But yes that is OR without sources, and as such not suitable for inclusion in the article itself. Sounds ripe for an English Lit phd student to stick their neck out somewhat and document it as possible solution. 82.47.136.229 (talk) 21:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Swallows and Amazons?

I don't really see how this link is relevant, and to claim it is a "similar novel but with a different perspective" seems a bit of a stretch. --Mattpartridge24 (talk) 23:44, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't either. I'm going to strike it in a couple of days unless someone comes along and defends it. Nah, I'll strike it now, and we can talk about putting it back. htom (talk) 04:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

There is a kind of connection -- both are about a group of British children. The number of differences is huge. htom (talk) 05:27, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 January 2012


165.155.204.118 (talk) 13:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC) Fat Kid Dies

Not exactly encyclopedic is it?--Jac16888 Talk 13:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Bullying

I suggest that there is a section on bullying. Piggy and the twins were bullied and maybe others were as well. Piggy is bullied early on and even Ralph does it, eventually, to a degree. Boys left to their own devices often do it. --Quidditch1 (talk) 12:55, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

confusing sentence

Right at the beginning of the section "Allegorical relationships" we read: "The relationships displayed in the novel have not yet been fully examined." What on earth does this mean? Examined by whom? I'm pretty sure this novel has been thoroughly examined, more so than most. Could we just nix the first two sentences of that section? 69.129.196.12 (talk) 14:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. The novel is one of the most studied novels ever, so that sentences does really not fit there, especially not without a note or explanation of some kind. It seems very unprofessional, take it away!--195.84.42.1 (talk) 09:22, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I notice that the article says the book is set during an unspecified nuclear war but this is completely false. The book is set during World War II which was fresh in people's minds when the book was published. This needs to be changed as it inhibits the reader's understanding to a great degree regarding much of the book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.235.17 (talk) 20:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Needs section on Piggy's Glasses

Piggy's glasses represent law and reason. When his glasses are broken, destruction comes to the island. It has to be noted in allegorical references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.186.37 (talk) 01:12, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

OMG, we have GOT to add this. lotf, though...not really my style of reading, though. it's too graphic for my taste, u know? Celestialwarden11 (talk) 19:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/flies/section1.rhtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.8.140.194 (talk) 16:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Am I only person who's noticed that as Piggy has myopia he would be short sighted and so his glasses would be refracting lenses. AFAIK Refracting lenses simply don't work for starting fires using the sun, that needs focusing lenses and so glasses would have to be for long sighted people. As the glasses are such a central plot device, I wonder if this may be why so many publishers refused the book initially. Not sure if Golding made an accidental mistake with this, or it is deliberate. If it is a deliberate mistake, was he suggesting something "more" about law and reason? perhaps "technowaffle" being a kind of belief too? For me it ends up spoiling the book as it's so well written and everything else seems very plausible. 82.47.136.229 (talk) 11:39, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Funny; I was reading just now for the first time and had the same uneasy feeling throughout the book until it the word "myopia" was explicitly used in the next; and that really made the story somewhat hard to believe on a technical level. Of course, if one forgets about this point, it's an impressive work. Dbach (talk) 10:16, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
It is a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalResearchFailure that greases the plot. If the glasses didn't work for starting a fire, they would have used the Making_fire#Pre-modern_methods of starting a fire that they discussed, but those methods are ones anyone could learn and would not make Piggy's glasses into a plot-critical valuable artifact. Piggy's myopia is also contrived to make the voice of reason literally short-sighted, and, combined with the asthma, hopelessly dependent on the others. Deliberately making the mistake that the diverging lenses used for myopia can focus and concentrate light for starting a fire would make the work absurd. -- Drf5n (talk) 14:41, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
All optics are based on refraction. —Tamfang (talk) 00:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 August 2012

In the section listing music influenced or expressing a very similar idea to the book, Lord of the Flies

The Band Foster the People, music video for their song "Helena Beat" (2011)

Narrative of the video explores some of the same ideas with a less biased view and Sci-Fi theme.

76.231.20.232 (talk) 05:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source. -- Dianna (talk) 18:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 September 2012

The article says that the book was adapted into four films, but only three are listed. 67.170.101.195 (talk) 06:40, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

IMDb also lists only three. —Tamfang (talk) 06:43, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Good point. And the lead only mentions two. Meters (talk) 06:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
done, lead and adaptations to three. Meters (talk) 06:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Pig - Devil motifs

In ancient Egyptian religion the devil Set(h) sometime takes the form of a pig. On the other hand in ancient Canaanite religion pigs were sacred to Baal. 26 August 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.20.43 (talk) 20:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, the ancient Egyptians did not eat pork and tended to equate Baal with Set(h). 5 September 2010. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.53.43 (talk) 13:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
There's a lot of cross references here that can get confusing, but Seth was a "dark god" in the Egyptian pantheon, worshiped by individual cults and not usually considered wholly 'bad' as the Devil of Abrahamic religions. Baalzebub (the Semitic "sub-deity") and the term Beelzebub (a later Jewish traditional title for the Devil, based on the Semitic deity's name) are not the same thing. Pigs were seen as filthy animals in Semitic and influenced cultures; and they're not exactly healthy for anyone, anyway. None of the things you mention really connect together. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 05:57, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

There were three deaths

Well Ralph tells the officer that there were two dead bodies. THe mullberry marked boy was probably burned to ashes otherwise the boys might've found him dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.208.27 (talk) 05:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there any source of information about the boy? From the very beginning I was curious what would happen with him. And I didn't get any answer. Could anybody reveal some truth or is it planned by the author not to reveal his fate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.40.99.104 (talk) 21:21, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

plane crash

It says that a plane has crash landed but is never seen again. however i am reading this right now and its an old school copy, in the back it breaks it down a bit and it says "there has been an atomic explosion and the children have been evacutated in an aircraft with a detachable passeger tube. flying over the tropical seas (having travelled via gibraltar & addis ababa) the aircraft has been attacked and has realesed the tube, which has crash landed in the jungle of the island. the aircraft has flown off in flames and the remains of the tube have been swept out to sea in a storm." this certainly explained a lot to me and makes perfect sense when rereading the first chapter Elleyh (talk) 10:32, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


What version of Lord of the flies to you have?! Sp!der (talk) 00:19, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

He is quite right in this, I read a school copy and though it did not explain this our teacher gave us the background information which goes hand in hand with what Elleyh says —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarkinor (talk • contribs) 01:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

He might have a 'teacher's guide' version. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 05:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


EDIT REQUEST: "Ralph, Piggy, Sam, and Eric feel guilty about what they did not stop." This is referring to Simon's murder in the Plot section. It's inaccurate. The boys didn't just "not stop" the murder, they participated. It should be reworded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pottergeek7 (talk • contribs) 01:40, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

SparkNotes: not reliable

SparkNotes is not a reliable source for information on Lord of the Flies. It is not peer-edited nor written by recognized experts in the field. It has been known for errors and is meant to provide a cursory overview of plot, themes, characters, etc. not a definitive scholarly analysis. Furthermore, SparkNotes writers do not cite where they get their ideas, and therefore such information could all potentially be original research. Information on this page that cites SparkNotes is not appropriately cited. Wolfdog (talk) 13:26, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 June 2013

Can we please have this changed? Though he is Ralph's only confidante.... That's a BOY, so that's a confidant. A confidante to my knowledge is always a female. ;) 77.191.218.167 (talk) 12:38, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Done with this edit. Actually, I was surprised to find that opinions differ, and some consider the words interchangeable - see [1]. I agree that yours is the interpretation least likely to confuse or look odd, though. Begoon talk 12:58, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Good video source to use for the novel is www.unitedstreamingvideo offered by the Discovery channel. This has an excellent video on the novel describing characters, plot,the British school boys change from civili[1]zed human beings into blood thirsty hunters.{User:parm}

Genre for the lead sentence

While there may be a few people who have called it such, Speculative Fiction is not the first genre most would think of for this novel. Taeyebaar changed the genre to over a dozen articles last month (including this one) without discussion, which I had to revert. Now he's come back and done it here again without discussion, this time using a questionable source. I have posted this issue at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Is arwz.com a RS for lead genre? - Gothicfilm (talk) 03:18, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Still no discussion on this page from Taeyebaar, who's now switched to another questionable new source, which has been reverted by two editors, including TheOldJacobite, with the edit summary That website is not even close to an adequate source. Taeyebaar has made a vague, unsubstantiated charge of something underhanded about this in his edit summary. He has been given a WP:3RR warning. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:35, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how this falls into any definition or category of speculative fiction. If it does, the source offered is not adequate to prove the point, which is why I removed it. Taeyebaar reverted without offering any explanation. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 23:32, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

"...Soon after the rumours of the Beast begin to flourish, the corpse of a fighter pilot, ejected from his aircraft, falls to the island. ...

Uhh, are you sure this is correct? I seem to recall that the parachutist was there before the boys, that there is a description that his clothes and the chute are torn, indicating that he had been there a while. Old_Wombat (talk) 12:12, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Piggy

Added a section on Piggy to the other characters. As he is as much a pivotal character as any of the others listed, and the symbolism surrounding him is obvious, it seems a glaring ommission not to include him. PatrickLMT (talk) 23:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


Piggy's page section, the movie Island does not come out until this year (2013); see: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2059227/ - AndrewDBarker (talk - 24:04 11 November 2013. —Preceding undated comment added 05:05, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Music

An obvious (for those who heard it) song to be listed in the "Influences" part is Iron Maiden's "Lord of the flies"; besides the self-explanatory title, its lyrics are clearly based on the story of the original book. See Lord of the Flies (song) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.220.193.248 (talk) 18:02, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

There is also a song called "Fable" by Gatsby's American Dream that retells this story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theenvyofkings (talk • contribs) 00:33, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Influence addition

There is also an episode of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles that is inspired by this book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.97.16.243 (talk) 21:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Is it also worth noting that the video for Turin Brakes' Dark On Fire is clearly based on Lord Of The Flies? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxLXnccO5fQ&hl=un RangerFish (talk) 13:55, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hope I'm adding this in the right place, surely at a core level the TV series Lost has to be considered as taking influence from Lord of the Flies? A plane crashes on an island, various tribes clash with one another, there is a beast in the form of the smoke monster and rescue is sought by most of the cast. Obviously Lost had all sorts of other crazy storylines going off on wild tangents as well but the central premise is so close it's hard to miss the likely influence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.173.194.150 (talk) 22:10, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 January 2015

The movie that is mentioned at the end of section Allegorical relationships > Piggy seems to be a 2013 production, not 2012. Umit.Kybs (talk) 20:33, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 21:30, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Missing Sections and Expansion

This article is missing several sections including information on the novel's reception, legacy, themes, and interpretation. These are significant pieces of information which should be added to the article, also the article's influence section is way too short as there is more information that could be added to it. Some pieces of this article are not sourced and should be given correct citations. All of this needs to happen in order to make the article more better developed.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:45, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2016

Please 50.115.207.92 (talk) 19:35, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:03, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Video game reference: metal gear solid V

I came here to find more information about this and was surprised to find out it was not mentionned.

The group of abandoned child soldiers we come accross during the game, and more particularly the character of Eli features a few references to the book: the player first meets him in a room where there's a severed boar's head surrounded by dozens of flies, he wears a conch attached to his belt ; at some point later in the story, a boy named Ralph is killed in suspicious circumstances, ... I probably missed a few others since I read the book a long time ago.

Not sure whether this belongs on this page though ; i'll leave it to the admins or other contributors since the page is protected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.172.230 (talk) 00:16, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2016

"a dead fighter pilot is ejected from his plane"

A dead fighter pilot cannot eject from a plane (it's also passive voice); I would suggest:

"a fighter pilot ejects from his plane and dies during the descent" or the like

173.163.169.81 (talk) 17:13, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Done — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 22:32, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2016

In the Influence section, under the Music heading, something about the following should be added:

In the Blues Traveler song "Justify the Thrill," a section of the lyrics makes reference to the book:

"The pig's head on a stick does grin As we teeter on the brink He's singing you are all my children My island's bigger than you think"

Professorrook (talk) 23:07, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Done MeowMoon (talk) 23:25, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Explanation of the novel title

Dears, I guess it should be noted that the title "Lord of Flies" is literal translation of hebrew: בעל זבוב [ba'al zevuv], namely Beelzebub, Devil, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub. It is in fully agreement with intention of the author: The evil among people originates, when people start to bring offers to pig heads, "bad gods".

I hope this expantion can improve understanding of the novel. Take into account that Golding is typical jewish name, so we can assume, that Golding knew and deliberatly used this ethymology.

Xerostomus (talk) 03:23, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2016

The WIKI page for the novel Lord of the Flies cites information about Stephen King. Stephen King additionally cited the novel as an inspiration for his short story Rage written in the 1977. I am unsure about the following (as this novel as an inspiration for these other Stephen King stories), but there are similarities of this novel and the other stories, Blockade Billy (2010) (the novella) and Hearts in Atlantis.

Brandon20000 (talk) 17:53, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Topher385 (talk) 23:30, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2016

The book portrays their descent into savagery; left to themselves on a paradisaical island, far from modern civilization, the well-educated children regress to a primitive state.

Should be paradisiacal Mack911 (talk) 04:19, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Done Thanks for the notice. Opencooper (talk) 05:59, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 February 2017

There are two instances where "whom" is used instead of "who" as follows: The boys create a form of democracy by declaring that whomever holds the conch ... He is seen by the boys whom are engaged in a ritual dance, ... In both cases the word should be "who", not "whom" as the pronoun is the subject of the clause, whom is the object. "Who" is the grammatical equivalent of he/she/they. "Whom" is the same for him/her/them. See ,https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/595/02/> Iansteep (talk) 09:23, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Done Thank you for pointing that out! regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 10:21, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2017

Please change a line in the first plot paragraph, "form a seperate clique of hunters", to "form a separate clique of hunters". Just a typo. Wendifresh (talk) 20:56, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for reporting the problem. I have made the change. Keith D (talk) 22:28, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 August 2017

I believe that the song "Beast in Air, Beast in Water" by Snowmine was inspired by Lord of the Flies as well as the other songs mentioned, at least in its title. 69.208.36.60 (talk) 17:44, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Was this actually a nuclear war?

Was there actually a nuclear war here? This seems speculative at best. There's no direct textual support for this, and the citation that's used to support this doesn't really offer any direct support for their claim either - it's just some random book that says that they were fleeing an "apparent" nuclear war.

See also: https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/3049/is-there-really-a-nuclear-war-in-the-world-of-the-lord-of-the-flies — Preceding unsigned comment added by EJS1985 (talk • contribs) 20:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 October 2017

The Lord of the Flies also served as an inspiration for Stephen King's novella. He cited this and Catcher in the Eye as inspirations. Brandon20000 (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. SparklingPessimist Scream at me! 15:27, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2017

Musical Influences: The band Gatsbys American Dream based their song "Fable" on the events that take place in the book. 24.64.202.25 (talk) 22:31, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  — Ammarpad (talk) 08:02, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2018

Change the word into "paradisiacal" 176.131.202.36 (talk) 14:35, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

 Fixed Spintendo ᔦᔭ 14:46, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2018

hello 91.110.58.132 (talk) 03:26, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Please use the sandbox for editing experiments. Gulumeemee (talk) 05:25, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request 25 June 2018

Source for the citation needed in the Film section, about criticism of an all female film: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/31/all-female-lord-flies-remake-faces-backlash-misses-point-women/ The Telegraph Roobidy (talk) 14:35, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 September 2018

Add to musical influences: Ben Folds' song "Mister Peepers" mentions Lord of the Flies by name in the lyrics[2].

TheUnlocked (talk) 02:33, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

 Not done The article is not a dumping ground for trivia. Fish+Karate 13:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ www.unitedtsreamingvideo.com
  2. ^ CNN, Maegan Vazquez,. "Ben Folds pays homage to Rod Rosenstein with 'Mister Peepers' song". CNN. Retrieved 2018-09-14. {{cite news}}: |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2020

Addition to Literature subsection of Influence. In the Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett novel Good Omens, the demon Crowley contacts Hell to inquire as to the location of a hellhound where he is put through to Dagon, 'Lord of the Files'. 2A00:23C4:A412:F00:E0EB:E518:AB89:A9E0 (talk) 13:26, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

 Not done That usage looks more like a reference to the Beelzebub sense of "Lord of the Flies (disambiguation)" DuncanHill (talk) 15:09, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2020

Can a confirmed user please add a link in the 'See also' section. Something like 'ʻAtā, and island in the Tongan group, where six children were shipwrecked for 15 months". Thanks. 2A00:23C6:3B82:8500:CD7:9DBA:CDBC:6138 (talk) 20:02, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

 Done I linked ʻAta instead. This is evidently the correct island.—Anita5192 (talk) 20:23, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Lord of the Flies is a Good Book For Schools

Lord of the Flies is a Good Book For Schools Maddog2354 (talk) 01:55, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

@Maddog2354:  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The book's popularity in schools is already mentioned in the article. GoingBatty (talk) 02:04, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Similarities to World War 2 and Cold War

I think that this has similarities to the Cold War and World War 2. A character said something about the reds, and the island seems to be located in the Pacific Ocean. I say this because planes and ships would periodically pass the island. Bernspeed (talk) 23:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, this is confirmed to be an influence 207.72.1.96 (talk) 15:33, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Request for separate section for Ata incident

As currently formatted, it's not easy to spot the ref and details of the "real-life LOTF" incident involving Ata. Perhaps someone would be willing to create a sub-headed section so the incident shows up in the page contents list ?? Robma (talk) 16:00, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2020

To the music influence part I would suggest to add Cane Hill's "Lord of Flies" song, which is on their 2018 album "Too Far Gone". Sources: https://play.google.com/music/preview/Tve5n5l5n6glef3zl3r5tsjnw2m?play=1&u=0 https://www.altpress.com/news/cane_hill_lord_of_flies/ Mrart83 (talk) 19:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Influences sections should only link to other media that is itself notable, usually with an existing article. There would need to be rs to demonstrate this song is notable under our definitions and the provided links do not do that. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

A few suggestions

Hey guys I'm a big fan of the "Lord of the Flies", and I think this Wikipedia article is very well written for the most part, but I also have a few suggestions as to how we can make it better. I think we could add a few more categories to really liven up the article. For example, we can add a characters section which is popular on other wikipedia's about novels. Since there was a tidbit about the interpretation of the novel, in relation to coral island, world war 2 and the cold war, I think if we're running with this we can create a new section about different ways people have interpreted the novel and it's significance. As to what we can add in a more objective sense, I think we can add a publishing section, that lists the different publications of the Lord of the Flies, and we can add more photos to the page. These are my take aways from this wikipedia page and how I think we can improve upon it to increase its score. What does anyone think? Thanks. Nava0914 (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

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