Talk:List of retronyms

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Misc

This page should not have been split from the article, Retronym. It should be re-merged. The person who split it has given no reason for doing so. Where there are valid reasons for splitting (excess size or divergent uses of the topic name), relevant sections of the original talk page should be copied and pasted, as I have done below. In this case the entire talk page of Retronym refers to the List of retronyms article.—Copey 2 09:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vinyl record

"Vinyl record: A term that arose to distinguish 33⅓- and 45-rpm phonograph records (LPs and 45s) from the compact discs (CDs) that have since replaced them for nearly all physical records and record albums."

I don't know that this is appropriate for this article. I believe that vinyl (PVC) records were called vinyl records when they first came into popular use - so as to distinguish them from other (generally earlier) phonograph disks made of other materials like shellac, rubber, metal, glass, etc. So yeah - not really a retronym. As hard as it may be for us to believe now a days, the vinyl record was at one point a technological inovation over earlier forms of recording. :)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record#Early_history for more background... --Blackcats 03:10, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Here in Australia there was a somewhat inaccurate retronym black record.144.139.87.98
The retronym is record album when vinyl was being used regularly, an "album" meant vinyl, now it means a cd so I have to specify when I'm talking about my mother's collection of 45's. --Pokey1984 07:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Uh .. according to my granddad (who died in 1985), album once meant a series of (short-playing) records held together in the form of a codex. —Tamfang (talk) 05:14, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rotary-dial telephone

Re: "Rotary-dial telephone"-- For a time these were the newer, more modern variety of telephone, while they were replacing the previously usual standard type of telephone. -- Hello Central, gimme Infrogmation

This raises some interesting questions. Is "rotary phone" actually a retronym, or was it a neologism created when phone companies began replacing the manual switchboard systems with automated switching systems directed by dialing? And did the old-style phones acquire a retronym themselves? -- Jeff Q 22:22, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Female "Sr."?

When I added the retronymic use of "Sr." (senior) for fathers who (foolishly and egotistically, IMHO) name their sons after themselves, I found myself wondering if there are any famous uses of "Sr." for women. I can't think of any, nor can I think of any "feminine" substitute for this practice. It isn't because of lack of need. (My own family includes three generations of Marys and two of Carolyns, as well as four Davids! My Marys have nicknames to distinguish themselves, and the Carolyns just get confused. Who ever invented this practice?!) I suppose it's less frequently necessarily in societies where women adopt the surnames of their husbands when they marry, or where they acquire compound or hyphenated names, but surely this comes up from time to time. Someone famous must have dealt with this issue! -- Jeff Q 09:03, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Well, certainly before a girl marries she has to be disambiguated from her mother by some means. And if they're going to do it by giving the child a double-barrelled name, then this ought to be just as common for boys. For that matter, how were Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon and Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Windsor commonly known before George VI ascended the throne? -- Smjg 15:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Is being disambiguated from one's mother a painful process
(;-)? Joking aside though, wasn't she known precisely as Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon ? Dieter Simon 01:25, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Mother was The Duchess of York and daughter was Princess Elizabeth of York. Trouble came in 1952 when they were both Queen Elizabeth (more formally The Queen and The Queen Mother). —Tamfang 16:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Catholic

Would the term "Catholic" be a retronym, since the Catholic church only started using that term after the advent of Protestantism? ☞spencer195 03:46, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

It was first used (in 1551, according to OED) to mean "universal" in non-ecclesiastical use. So the word itself wasn't invented by Catholics. Not sure if this info helps. --Menchi 04:31, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of non-Roman Catholics also consider themselves to be Catholic, Eastern and Greek Orthodox for example, and high Anglicanism. A strong case could be made for saying the RC church changed so much after the Schisms that the new term "Roman Catholicism" doesn't refer to the same entity that used to be called ... er something else.
The term was long used to distinguish the church from "heresies" like Arianism, Donatism, and so on. The OED will, of course, only list uses in English. --Iustinus 19:08, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The term was certainly in use by the Council of Nicaea (325 AD) since it appears in the Creed there agreed. Mark O'Sullivan 11:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The earliest extant use of the term Catholic was in the early 2nd century by Ignatius of Antioch, who must have known the apostles, in a letter written shortly before his martyrdom. Dates for this are as various as 107 and 115 AD.—Copey 2 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Upper or lower-case? The distinction I've heard is lower-case catholic is for the original meaning of "universal"; upper-case Catholic came about to distinguish it from Protestants. --Jamoche (talk) 02:58, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

charcoal

What about charcoal? Before the advent of the then so-called "sea-coal" in the Middle Ages, charcoal should have been generally known as just "coal". --Cendol 10:19, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

No, coal is a black rock that is dug out of the ground. It's related to crude oil, I think, I'm a bit rusty on my geology. Charcoal, on the other hand, is carbonized wood. I don't know what sea-coal is, but it's probably related more to charcoal than coal. --Pokey1984 07:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Sea Coal" is coal from underwater deposits washed up on a beach.--RKH

Acoustic guitar?

The acoustic guitar is distinguished from the classical guitar in that it has metal strings. I assume that this is the origin of the name, not a retronym after the electric guitar. — Asbestos | Talk 08:37, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually, this would seem to suggest both acoustic guitar and classical guitar are retronyms. Somewhere along the way, these adjectives were added to distinguish a new kind of guitar from whatever was just called a "guitar" before. Perhaps the problem is that the arrival of the electric guitar was not the retronym-spawning event. Does anyone know the etymologies of these variations? — Jeff Q 09:08, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You're probably right. The American Heritage Dictionary has electric->acoustic as their first example of a retronym anyway, so perhaps best to leave it. — Asbestos | Talk 09:50, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't know the etymology, but you are right in saying both acoustic guitar and classical guitar are retronyms. Guitars developed from mandolins, which developed from lutes. The actuall name comes from spanish guitarra (sp? I'm not so good at Spanish)Either way, "guitar" is several hundred years old. Variations (and, consequently, the names for the variations) are much newer. Sometimes etymology isn't as important as basic history and common sense, you know.--Pokey1984 08:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I've not confirmed it, but supposedly Juan Gil of Zamora mentions the early guitar in Ars Musica in 1265.--Pokey1984 08:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Posthumous names

Would the posthumous names entry really be a retronym? It's a name awarded after death, not a name added to distinguish it from something modern.

I agree, it does not meet the definition given in the article.

Catherine of Aragon

Is Catherine of Aragon a retronym? I suppose she was called "of Aragon" under certain circumstances to begin with, but the period sources I've seen tend to just call her "Queen Catherine" (even in treatises about the annullment of her marriage to Henry VIII) I assume "of Aragon" started to become a common epithet for her once Henry married Catherine Howard and Catherine Parre. If anyone has a period source, preferably one in Latin, that refers to her witih her epithet, I would like to see it. --Iustinus 19:18, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, what do you suppose she was called before marriage? —Tamfang 16:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Classic?

Wouldn't classic rock and classical music be retronys? I doubt Mozart called himself "classical".

That's a minefield. What most people would call "classical" music is actually broken up into a number of periods (Classical, baroque, et cetera). Also I don't think it's necessary to list every freaking retronym on the page. —Casey J. Morris 22:03, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

There were several names around galant music Baroque music, and Empfindsamkeit. They all are under the umbrella of "classical", not referred to their names of that period typically now.

Sit-down restaurant

I believe that this item ought to be qualified as US usage. In the UK, "fast-food" outlets are generally referred to as "cafés" despite the best efforts of one major US chain to dignify its establishments, and "take-away" [southern England] or "carry-out" [Scotland and Northern Ireland] facilities are generally referred to as "shops". Mark O'Sullivan 11:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not in the parts of the UK I've experienced - "fast food restaurant" and "café" tend to refer to different things, though maybe there is some overlap. And "fast food outlet" also seems to be a quite common term, which I suppose could refer to fast food restaurants and takeaways alike. and for the record, here are some Google statistics:
  • "McDonald's restaurant" 111,000 (UK 4,640)
  • "McDonald's outlet" 3,510 (UK 121)
  • "McDonald's café" 139 (UK 6)
  • "fast food restaurant" 558,000 (UK 22,300)
  • "fast food outlet" 42,800 (UK 10,300)
  • "fast food café" 933 (UK 390)
Some of these ratios surprise me a bit, but still imply that "restaurant" is the usual British and worldwide term. -- Smjg 10:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

George H.W. Bush

Since today the name "George Bush" is more commonly used to mean the son rather than the father, could the adding of the "H.W." or saying "George Bush Senior" be considered a retronym? I know someone mentioned that "Senior" is retronymic, but does the same apply to the later-added middle intials?

It's not like he went out and had his name changed when his son was elected President; those were always his initials. —Casey J. Morris 22:04, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
But they generally weren't USED. Mdotley 17:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If any of you are American you should be ashamed of yourselves. We learned this is government class in school. Past US presidents are always referred to as former. Bush Senior would be Former President Bush. The one currently in office is President Bush. That was right after the paragraph in our textbooks telling us that we should always address the leader of our country as Mr. President (as in, "Good morning, Mr. President.") The problem will be, of course, in 2009, after the next president is sworn in. Then how do we differntiat between the formers, assuming we ever get the insane desire to think of them again? --Pokey1984 08:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

American Football

Would this be an example of a retronym? As "soccer" becomes more popular and Americans watch European "football", the term "American Football" seems to be more appropriate. I heard the term quite often while living in Europe and even the Americans started using it.

I'm afraid plausibility just in itself doesn't really help. Yes, you are right, "soccer" is becoming more popular in the U.S., and both "soccer" and "football" in the UK mean the same thing, that it might indeed follow to call the American game of soccer "American football", but that is not enough. The actual and still popular game of American Football as it is played resembles after all more the English game "Rugby" and has indeed a similar shape ball. It would be very confusing 'retronymically' to call soccer as played in the U. S. "American Football" while the original game is still being played and loved under American rules. Dieter Simon 22:55, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that "American Football" is a retonym can only be justified from the US perspective because everywhere else in the world, it has always been called this. The true retronym is in fact "soccer" which comes from a truncation of "Association". The original game of football was the soccer version. When a new game, rugby, was derived, socccer became known officially as Association Football to distinquish it from Rugby Football (from which American Football is descended). The interesting thing is that with Rugby Football, there was a further split into Rugby Union and Rugby League so in fact the term Rugby Union Football became a retronym in itself. --GringoInChile 10:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why is hard cider not a retronym?

Hi, Flapdragon, please explain why for example, "hard cider" isn't a retronym. Don't just remove it, if you have a good reason why you have deleted it, you should explain. It's not at all clear why you have deleted it. Dieter Simon 22:53, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK, on further reflection I withdraw my objection and have reinstated "hard cider". I still think it's a weak example, but I was wrong to delete it. However I do think there are way too many examples shown; the article is really more a List of retronyms than an explanation of Retronym. Flapdragon 01:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with you on that point, Flapdragon. This "list" should be moved or removed. --Avochelm 15:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just to throw my two-cents in, but Hard Cider is a better example than George H.W. Bush.--Pokey1984 08:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Feudal?

Would Feudal count? Conglacio 04:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Four-player mahjong

Mahjong (among other spellings) is actually a four-player game, but it seems that when people talk of it they often actually mean mahjong solitaire. As such, there ought to be a term that's used to clarify that one is talking of the four-player game. Assuming that it really does predate the solitaire game, then if there's a term in significant use that is understood to mean specifically the four-player game, then it could go on the list. -- Smjg 13:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Film camera

Film camera doesn't belong here. There was more than one type of camera before digital - plate cameras, for a start, did not (and do not) use film.

This page would be better if there were dated sources for the claimed retronyms. --Pfold 07:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The existence previously of other types of camera does not invalidate the retronymy of the term. Film cameras were not generally so called till the advent of digital. The name is used to distinguish what was all-but-universally called a camera from the later-invented digital types.
It does raise an intriguing issue, however, in defining the history of terms. If film cameras were so called to distinguish them from plate cameras before the invention of digital (Pfold doesn't make this clear), and if the term subsequently arose independently of this earlier use to distinguish them from digital cameras, then we have the interesting phenomenon of a single term with a single meaning but two uses. Both uses refer to the same object, but there is an older use distinguishing them from an older piece of technology, and a newer one distinguishing them from a more recent invention. It is the newer use that constitutes the retronym.—Copey 2 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Although the term "film camera" did exist in the pre-"digital camera" era, it wasn't a widespread term distinguishing them from cameras using other chemical media. Cameras in those days were usually distinguished by the chemical process they used (daguerrotype, ferrotype, etc), and as the chemistry standardized, cameras were usually described in terms of their media size (large-format, medium-format, 35mm) rather than what the medium was affixed to. -161.57.55.36 18:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What about analogue Camera?

Hardly anyone calls them that. We're not here to pick retronyms, but report them. - 161.57.55.36 18:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pocket watch

Deleted. The term pocket watch existed 2 centuries before wrist watch. Don't people check these things in a dictionary before posting them here? --Pfold 08:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The term "watch" itself (on its own) was what changed. "Watch" meant a pocket watch because it was the only kind that existed. Today, it almost always means a wrist watch because it is by far the most common type.96.51.16.28 (talk) 01:07, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Finfish

This a retronym? When did shellfish first exist? I thought they existed before fish did. Though if so then there can't have been a huge gap - apparently [2] fish were invented 510 mya, 32 my into the Cambrian. -- Smjg 14:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Shellfish are certainly not a late invention from which a previously universal type now has to be distinguished. The term fish by itself still doesn't include shellfish.—Copey 2 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting of article

Was there really any point in splitting this article into Retronym, consisting of 3 short paragraphs and List of retronyms, with the bulk of the original? In the meantime, I will paste this talk page with the List article.—Copey 2 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Desktop computer

could have been used in contrast to mainframes, so is it really a retronym? 75.16.157.237 04:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But did anybody use the term before laptops came about? OK, so it may have been contrasted with luggable computers in their days. Otherwise, the term that contrasts them from mainframes has always been "microcomputer" in my experience. -- Smjg 14:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Landambulance

From [3] we have "land ambulance". Morwen - Talk 14:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is though that the terms "road ambulance" and "land ambulance" are equally often used, as opposed to "air ambulance". Dieter Simon 23:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vegan

I recently read that the term "vegetarian" originally referred to what we would now call a vegan. Are lacto-ovo-vegetarians a more recent invention - or did they exist from the beginning (at least of human vegetarianism), just not referred to as vegetarians? (Moreover, where did food versus other animal exploitations fall into the original equation?) -- Smjg 14:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fountain pen

The fountain pen was definitely so called before the invention of the ball point -- to distinguish it from the dip pen, which probably is a better example of a retronym. One good example is the 1892 joke reproduced at http://www.kamakurapens.com/Humor/TheFountainPenWasInventedByTheDevil.html and I am certain there are amny others out there. It should probably be stricken from this list. --Jeff Lipschultz 03:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

bar soap

I suspect that bar soap was an innovation relative to soap flakes, but that's only a guess on my part. As for regular coffee, can we simply say that regular is a common retronym-forming adjective for just about anything? —Tamfang 05:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]


a few omissions

The 1980-1988 conflict between Iran and Iraq was often referred to as "the Gulf War" (or the "Persian Gulf War") while it was going on. Bicycles originally had a large front wheel and a small rear wheel. After the introduction of the "safety bicycle" with two equal-size wheels, the type with unmatched wheels became known as the "penny-farthing," among other names. Similarly, the invention of the safety razor and its subsequent popularity generated a need to rename the old-style blade as a "straight razor." --RKH

Whoever taught you that the penny-farthing was the original kind of bicycle had it all wrong. The first bikes had no pedals, but were propelled in a similar way to a child's scooter. Then pedals were added, to one of the wheels rather than being between the wheels as with modern bikes. Then somebody had the idea of making the machine go faster by making the drive wheel bigger and bigger to magnify the pedal movements. -- Smjg 15:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How embarassing--I knew that. Precision is important, as I tell my students. On a related note, the large-small bicycle became known as an "ordinary bicycle" once the safety bicycle appeared. I'm not sure when the term "penny-farthing" was coined. --RKH

Pedestrian, heterosexual

I can only disagree with the listing of these two.

"Known simply as "people" before transport was invented" - surely transport (in the form of horses, horse-drawn vehicles and the like) came about long before the English language as we know it did. So when could "people" have specifically meant pedestrians? Moreover, aren't people still people even when they're not on the move?

And as for "heterosexual", homosexuals and heterosexuals alike must have existed for centuries before there were names for them. -- Smjg 18:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I think about it, I totally see your point. I had just added an entry for "prime lens," a retronym for a camera lens with a fixed focal length that was created after zoom lenses were invented. In this case, the actual existence of fixed-focal-length lenses predates the existence of zoom lenses. On the other hand, in the case of "homosexuals" and "heterosexuals," both kinds of people existed from the beginning, and it's only the term "homosexual" that was a new invention. The only reason I edited the entry was because I thought that it could be phrased better, and I wasn't really thinking about whether the entry belonged here or not. Now that I've phrased it better, I vote that it be removed.  ;-) -- Skaraoke 21:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Pedestrian" is simply not a retronym; whoever added it was either joking or didn't understand the concept.
Joking. I understand the concept perfectly well. It's been a while since I checked if anyone had twigged yet. Strictly speaking, of course, the concept couldn't have had a word to describe it until there was transport. When this happened is anyone's guess, but well before the Latin language existed for English speakers to borrow terms like pedestrian from—probably the participle of an ancient word meaning walk.—Copey 2 (not logged on)

The terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" were invented at the same time, as two sides of the same coinage. - 161.57.55.36 18:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

biological parent

Isn't this also used in order to distinguish between the biological parent and the 'legal' parent, i.e. if the biological father is not the 'legal' father because of adultery?--Soylentyellow 17:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're a bit confused. That's not the only case of distinction between the biological parent and the legal parent. Adoption, as already mentioned in the article, is the more usual example of this. -- Smjg 14:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

British milk

In how much of the world are the given terms used? The only kinds of milk that we Brits are generally acquainted with are full-cream, semi-skimmed and skimmed. (We do have the term whole milk, I think more often on labels than in everyday conversation.) According to Delia Online, full-cream is 3.5% and semi-skimmed is 1.5-1.8%. How can we best consolidate these facts or, failing that, rephrase it to be more geographically neutral? -- Smjg 23:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On HDTV

The part about SDTV possibly coming in to use is quite outdated imho. At least here in Sweden we separate SD from HD, at least in nerdy/semi-nerdy circles. /per

Varieties of m&m's

They were Milk Chocolate m&m's during my childhood. Never to my knowledge have they been called Plain m&m's, at least here in the UK. Besides, dark chocolate is often known as plain chocolate over here, and so the name "Plain m&m's" would have been confusing. I think it's just as likely that renaming Plain m&m's to Milk Chocolate m&m's in some unspecified country was a move to give the product a consistent name across the English-speaking world. -- Smjg 14:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On my side of the pond, M&Ms have been advertised as "plain and peanut chocolate candies" as long as I can remember, i.e. since circa 1970. (When more varieties were added, I was no longer exposed to television as much so I can't say how the terminology was affected.) —Tamfang 22:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The M&Ms in the dark brown packages were described on the wrapper as "Plain" for decades in the USA. I remember reading newspaper stories when they removed the word "plain" from the packaging and replaced it with "milk chocolate." I didn't think it made sense at the time, but in retrospect it does since now there is a "dark chocolate" variety (purple wrapper). The newspaper article suggested Mars didn't want to use a word with negative connotations (one could argue if "plain" qualifies) to describe their product. —tuc 5 February 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.66.250.95 (talk) 13:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

UK and US bias

This article has many US only examples and some UK only examples. What about Canadian, Australian, or non-Anglosphere examples? I am neither from the US or the UK, but there are definitely examples from outside these two countries. Johnny Au (talk) 19:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Johnny Au, you are right. It is probably bound to be the case, as the number of contributors from the U.S.and the UK predominate(?). So, let us call on all our English-speaking Wikipedians from all over the world to contribute, which includes of course yourself, Johnny Au. Please, feel free to add your local versions of retronyms. Americans and British are hardly qualified to do that for you. Dieter Simon (talk) 19:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done just that, with the additions of Zellers in "brick-and-mortar store," Canadian broadcast channels in "broadcast television," First World War in "World War I," and First Chinatown and Bloor-Yonge station in Toronto in the "geographic retronyms" section. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 01:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

lettering

If User:Arthur Rubin hadn't reverted User:Wavelength's additions of "capital letters" and so on, I'd be considering it, because they imply an over-simplification of the history of our alphabet. —Tamfang (talk) 16:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List from retronym article, to be merged

I moved this huge list here for merging, because it just clutters the main subject article. Locador (talk) 17:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Examples in various fields

Consumer products

  • The usage of "Classic" may be derived from a famous retronym: the relaunch of Coca-Cola as "Coca-Cola Classic" after the failure of what is now called the New Coke recipe change.
  • When Apple began selling new touch-screen variants of its iPod music player in 2007, the original form-factor iPod was renamed iPod Classic to be more easily distinguished from other iPod product lines.
  • As the PlayStation 2 neared launch, Sony Computer Entertainment refined its PlayStation console as a viable alternative to its expensive successor, rebranding it as the "PSone". Common alternatives to "PSone" are the "PlayStation 1", the "original PlayStation" and the "PlayStation retro".
  • In the early 2000s, liquid dish detergent became available as a concentrate, allowing a bottle of the same size to be used to wash more (or dirtier) dishes. The common nomenclature for such products was "ultra" strength (e.g., Ultra-Dawn). Some consumers prefer the original (and generally cheaper) formulas, which in some cases are still available in a re-labeled "non-ultra" form.
  • The popularity of Bird's Custard in the United Kingdom has led to the retronymic term "egg custard" to specify and distinguish original custard, which traditionally contains eggs.[1]
  1. ^ http://www.channel4.com/food/recipes/popular-cuisines/british/fresh-egg-custard-recipe_p_1.html

Art and literature

The designation of a period or of an artistic or literary style as "classical" is invariably a retronym; such a designation is given only retroactively, when the heritage of the period in question has been judged and found worthy by a later culture.

Careless use of retronyms in historical fiction can cause anachronisms. For example, referring to the "First World War" in a piece set in 1935 would be incorrect — "The Great War" or "14-18 War" were commonly employed descriptions prior to World War II. Anachronistic use of a retronym could also betray a modern document forgery (such as a description of the First Battle of Bull Run before the second had taken place).

Actually it was called the First World War as early as 1920 in a book by Charles à Court Repington. --82.18.79.50 (talk) 23:36, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Politics and government

  • U.S. President George H.W. Bush was ubiquitously known, both during and following his administration, as "George Bush" and "President Bush". However, when his son George W. Bush was elected president in 2000, the elder Bush became retroactively known as "George H.W. Bush". The need to distinguish between the two presidents also spawned colloquialisms such as "Bush Senior" and "Bush 41" for George H.W. Bush.

Technology

  1. ^ "The Wheelmen FAQ: What do you call high wheel bicycles?". Retrieved 2009-01-23.
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference safire1 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Miller, David (2004), The Illustrated Directory of Warships from 1960 to the Present Day, Greenwich Editions, London. ISBN 0-86288-677-5

Audio

  • The original amplitude-modulated consumer radio broadcast system was termed "AM" (or "standard broadcast") when frequency-modulated ("FM") broadcasting began.
  • Single-channel audio was the norm until stereo equipment became available, prompting the retronyms "monophonic" and "monaural" (sometimes simply "mono").
  • The introduction of tape cassettes led to the term reel-to-reel to describe the older technology.
  • The advent of satellite radio has prompted the term terrestrial radio.
  • Compact Discs, originally developed as a high-fidelity digital audio media, were later adopted for use as a general data medium. Thus, "CD-ROM" (for data) prompted the retronym "CD Audio", "CDDA", or "Red Book CD" (because of its Rainbow Book standard).

Motion pictures

The first mass-distributed films were monochrome and silent. As the technology developed:

Television

Television has prompted several retronyms:

Telephone

Telephone calls were originally completed through the assistance of an operator at a switchboard. When self-dialing service became available, the older service was referred to as "operator assisted" dialing. Later, tone-based dialing prompted the older service to be retronymed "pulse" dialing. The older phones were also referred to as "rotary dial" phones, to differentiate from the newer phones with a keypad.

The advent of digital telephony services such as ISDN and ADSL led to analog services being described as "plain old telephone service" (or simply "POTS"), primarily within the telephone industry. As mobile telephones have become prevalent, many consumers have come to refer to POTS as "land line" phone service[citation needed] – although calls placed on such a line may traverse wireless links such as microwave and satellite.

Computers

Geography

  • India and Indonesia were known by Europeans as "the Indies", until their discovery of the Caribbean (which they called the West Indies) led to the necessity of the retronym East Indies.
  • During the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Mexico was sometimes referred to (particularly in the U.S.) as "Old Mexico", to differentiate it from the territory and later state of New Mexico. "Old Mexico" is an example of a retronym that gradually fell into disuse, and is rarely heard today outside of Westerns.
  • Simón Bolívar united Venezuela, New Granada, and Ecuador under the name Colombia. After the union was later dissolved, New Granada changed its name to Colombia. Historians coined the term Gran Colombia (Great Colombia) to refer to Bolivar's union.

Entertainment

  • In entertainment media, a retronym can be applied to a property that becomes a franchise and requires the source property to be differentiated from others in the franchise.
    • The original 1960s Star Trek television series is mostly referred to as Star Trek: The Original Series to distinguish it from the many film and television sequels that Star Trek has spawned.
    • The Indiana Jones film Raiders of the Lost Ark is now referred to as Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark to match the title of its prequel and two sequels.
    • Both of the above titles remain unchanged on their onscreen title cards.
    • The first Star Wars movie to be filmed and released was originally titled simply Star Wars; after the film became a success and sequels were assured, the film was subtitled Episode IV: A New Hope for all subsequent releases.
    • CSI: Crime Scene Investigation, which is set in Las Vegas, Nevada, has spawned two spin-off series, CSI: Miami and CSI: New York. The original series' title has not changed, but it is syndicated in some markets with the new title CSI: Las Vegas.[citation needed]
    • After the 2005 revival of the popular UK science-fiction series Doctor Who the original run of episodes from 1963 to 1989 began to be referred to as Doctor Who - The Classic Series by the BBC [1] and often Classic Who by fans.
    • When the first season of Survivor first aired, it was simply called Survivor, but once more seasons aired, the first season then was referred to as Survivor: Borneo.
    • The sixth Kamen Rider television series, originally known simply as Kamen Rider, was released on home video under the title of Kamen Rider: Sky Rider in order to distinguish it from the original Kamen Rider television series.[2] The protagonist of the series was also given the name of Skyrider.
  • "Classic" is often applied to the first computer game in a franchise, especially if the sequels are numerically titled. This is often necessary to access references to the original game on the internet by means of a search engine, which would catch all the subsequently numbered games as well. Examples include:
  • Counter-Strike was more commonly known among gamers as Counter-Strike 1.6 or CS 1.6 after the release of Counter-Strike: Source.
  • Command & Conquer was frequently referred to as Tiberian Dawn after its sequel Tiberian Sun was confirmed, and also because it lent its name to the series.
  • After Dungeons & Dragons introduced the use of polyhedral dice, the regular cubical die became known as the "d6" in role-playing games, to distinguish it from the d4, d8, d12 and d20.
  • Role-playing games themselves became known as "pen-and-paper" or "tabletop" RPGs after computer and console games also known as RPGs appeared.
  1. ^ [1]
  2. ^ "Toei Video's Kamen Rider DVD Catalog" (in Japanese).

Cabinet minister

Is the term cabinet minister a retronym?--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 00:52, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Game Boy Mono

Could some examples be given of when this term has been used, I have never heard Nintendo use it or any enthusiasts. Drkirby (talk) 20:52, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Game Boy Mono? Bull

No one calls it that, or at least not enough people for it to be common enough for a list like this. Maybe some nuts somewhere call it that.76.226.223.3 (talk) 22:10, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DOS mode?

How is "DOS mode" a renaming of the operating system "DOS"? Doesn't seem like a retronym to me. If you install DOS on your machine, then you call it DOS. If you use DOS from within the Windows operating system, then it's called "DOS mode", since it's merely a feature of the extant OS, rather than a distinct OS -- or something like that. In any case, standalone DOS is never called "DOS mode", so this isn't a retronym. Phiwum (talk) 08:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Seaport

Seaport appeared in the English language in the 1590's.[4] Since airports didn't exist then, seaport can't be a retronym for airport. It should be deleted from this list, unless its inclusion is supported.
John Harvey, Wizened Web Wizard Wannabe, Talk to me! 12:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Trans World Airlines?

Exactly how is this a retronym and not simply a name change? ...a poor example, regardless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.10.62.253 (talk) 21:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Doom retronyms

There are four separate retronyms referring to the computer game Doom, seems a little excessive. Or possibly in contradiction to wikipedia policies on relevance, listing, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.23.134.2 (talk) 22:58, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

p-book (vs. e-book)

Is it worth adding "p-book" (meaning a paper book to distinguish from e-books)? The term p-book is gaining popularity (though personally I'm not keen!) as e-books are surging in their popularity. Red banksy (talk) 09:20, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it might be wise to create a section for such works like specific movies and video and computer games... anyone? BlackAdvisor (talk) 19:11, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Atheism

Prior to the categorisation of Theism, the default philosophical position "a lack of a belief in a God or gods", did not equate to an existing category. Once Theism was utilised, the retronymic Atheism was used to describe a non-theistic position.

This is going to need some references. It's not at all obvious that originally everyone didn't believe in God or gods. Neither is it obvious that the term "atheism" came about due to the spread of theism (for example, "atheism" wouldn't be a retronym if at some time everyone was an atheist, then later everyone became a theist, then later again atheism was reintroduced). Either or both may be true, but we need to establish that with reliable references or the entry can't stand. Marnanel (talk) 22:02, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

removal of The First World War

I've removed World War I, because it was not named World War I during or after World War II. It was named such in 1918, and Charles à Court Repington published a book about the war in 1920 titled The First World War". Kingturtle = (talk) 00:19, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tobacco cigarette

On November 18, Oxford Dictionaries announced that their international Word of the Year 2014 is vape. If you vape, you inhale and exhale the vapour produced by electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes or e-cigs) http://wwwords.org/vape. The retronym is tobacco cigarette. Brenont (talk) 14:11, 18 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly unsourced list full of errors

Some examples:

  • Bic Cristal: This is just a normal rebranding of an existing product line; it's no more a retronym than Mac Pro or KFC.
  • LED mouse: MouseSystems referred to their early 90s models as "optical LED mouse". I don't know if the LED was an attempt to sound fancy, or hoping they could win a trademark on that after losing the trademark on "optical mouse", but it certainly wasn't a retronym to distinguish from the better laser mice that someone would invent half a decade later.
  • Naturally aspirated engines: This may be a retronym, but it definitely doesn't mean "without fuel injection". It means air intake is based on atmospheric pressure. It doesn't matter how that air is taken in, or whether it's pre-mixed with fuel, as long as there's no above-atmospheric forced injection (a supercharger or turbo) or other oxygen delivery system (nitrous, liquid rocket oxidizer, etc.).
  • Procedural programming: The term "procedural" was used long before the advent of object-oriented programming, to describe a specific style of structured imperative programming that used subroutines for modularity, and to describe languages like Pascal designed to encourage, enforce, or teach that style. It was also used as a contrast with functional programming--both are subroutine-oriented, but procedural programming uses imperative subroutines, instead of the (at least partially) declarative subroutines of functional programming.
  • Pulse dialing: In popular use, "pulse dialing" was a name for a new feature in the 1980s, for pushbutton phones that could be used even if your exchange didn't support touch-tone dialing (because you were in a remote area, or on GTE instead of AT&T, or your telco charged extra, or you had a legacy PBX). In internal AT&T use, the term is decades older than tone dialing. Either way, it's not a retronym invented in the 60s.
  • Seventy-eight (78) rpm records: The term goes back to 1925, when manufacturers agreed on a standard speed of 78 rpm, and records began to be stamped with "78 R" on the label to indicate that they followed the standard and could therefore be played on phonographs without adjustable regulators.
  • Textile-top convertibles: The terms "textile-top" and "rag-top" have been used continuously since their initial popularization as an alternative to the open cars and folding-hardtop convertibles of the 1920s. In fact, you can see ads for textile-top landaulet convertible horse-drawn coaches from the 19th century. Neither one is a retronym.
  • World War One/First World War: People were using these terms as early as 1918.

The whole section on "disputed retronyms" seems pointless; the double retronyms aren't actually retronyms; and really, I'm not sure what the point of this list is. But if it's going to be here, it should probably be correct, and sourced.--50.0.128.185 (talk) 09:53, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Constitution Acts (Canada)

This is certainly a new name for something old, and is a very interesting example, but it isn't a retronym per definition. There was no new BNA Act from which the old one needed to be distinguished; on the contrary, old and new acts with different titles were all renamed Constitution Act! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.239.0.169 (talk) 21:32, 1 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

DOS computer

I don't think that the term "DOS computer" arose from the advent of Windows like the article suggests. Even before Windows, a DOS computer could have been opposed to one's UNIX machine. Does anyone have any info to back the claim in the article? Memfrob (talk) 05:28, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The term was already in use to distinguish it from a "CP/M computer" or a "BASIC computer", for example. Reify-tech (talk) 05:53, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

a few more geographic examples

City of London; downtown Los Angeles – distinguishing the old core from the grand accretion. What variations exist elsewhere?

Old Castile, a region of Spain.

Washington DC – marginal, as the name existed before, but the suffix became necessary after 1853. —Tamfang (talk) 19:23, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm shocked that you would suggest adding Old anything, whose retro status is so boringly obvious. —Tamfang (talk) 06:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prussia

East Prussia : Prussia began as a duchy in what is now Poland. …

I question the addition of the bolded words. Was the duchy not part of the kingdom of Poland? (And did it not include at least part of what is now Kaliningrad Oblast?) —Tamfang (talk) 06:27, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

double

I don't see any retronyms in the section Double retronyms, do you? —Tamfang (talk) 18:22, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

roller skate

The term "roller skate" was in use long before in-line skates (Rollerblades) to differentiate skates with wheels from ice skates. 108.225.17.141 (talk) 16:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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