Talk:List of presidents of the United States

Image changes, without consensus

We've got to do something about editors showing up (IP, mobile, etc) & changing images here & at List of vice presidents of the United States without a consensus & borderline edit-warring to keep those changes. GoodDay (talk) 02:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Hatnote

@Drdpw: How is this a "DAB of little usefulness"? "Presidents of the United States" could refer to several other things, all documented at President of the United States (disambiguation), most notably to President of the United States itself, but also to 5 other "United States"es and The Presidents of the United States of America (band). (Presidents of the United States of America redirects here too, but I left it out of the "redirects here" clause to save space.) WP:HATNOTERULES is clear, if a notable topic X is commonly referred to as "Foo", but the article "Foo" is not about X, there must be a hatnote linking to the article on X or linking to a disambiguation page that contains a link to the article on X. This is widely followed in cases where the singular and plural form of a term diverge. To take three canonical examples from WP:PLURAL:

• Windows redirects to Microsoft Windows, which hatnotes to Window; Window hatnotes to Windows (disambiguation).
• Seahawks redirects to Seattle Seahawks, which hatnotes to Sea Hawk, to which Seahawk redirects.
• Snicker redirects to Laughter, which hatnotes to Snickers; Snickers hatnotes to Snickers (disambiguation), which has an entry for Laughter.

That said, I don't have a strong preference as to whether the hatnote target should be President of the United States (disambiguation) or President of the United States. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 21:12, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

As long as Presidents of the United States of America and The Presidents of the USA redirect here (they shouldn't, and they didn't until recently), there must be a hatnote because of the band, if nothing else. Presidents of the United States is slightly less of an issue because president of the United States is linked in the first sentence. Station1 (talk) 07:39, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Those articles should not redirect to this list article. Drdpw (talk) 01:21, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Then take them back to RfD. It's been 2 months since Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 11 § The Presidents of the United States of America, and since that closed as no consensus it's been long enough to renominate. Until then, though, a hatnote is required by WP:HATNOTERULES. Please self-revert and then, if you wish, start a new RfD. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 01:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Biden & Trump portrait crops

Why do the Biden and Trump entries use extremely close crops of their portraits, when all other recent presidents are represented by their uncropped official portraits? We should probably stick to the uncropped official portraits for Biden and Trump, or switch to super narrow crops for all the other recent presidents, rather than the current arbitrary switch. Unless there's some good reason for this inconsistency? ∴ ZX95 ^[discuss] 00:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Presidential Numbering: Biden is NOT the 46th President of the United States

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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If this has been discussed before, please direct me to the proper discussion.

This is a discussion that affects many pages, but this felt like the most central place to discuss it.

The way we do presidential numbering is simply wrong. For example, the sentence "Joe Biden is the 46th President of the United States" is just objectively incorrect. He is the 45th president. He is the 45th person to serve as president, therefore he is the 45th president. That's what those words mean. There is no other way to interpret that. You can get away with saying something like "Joe Biden is president number 46" or "Joe Biden served the 46th presidency of the United States" because they refer to more abstract concepts like presidencies, but if you say "46th president" that is referring to presidents, who are PEOPLE. There have only been 45 PEOPLE who were president of the US, so the numbering CANNOT go above 45. Grover Cleveland is not two people! Finnigami (talk) 18:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Grover Cleveland served two presidencies..source .Moxy- 21:26, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that fact, which should be clear from the last sentence of my post, "Grover Cleveland is not two people!" The point remains that though they may have been 46 "presidencies" so far (although honestly it also seems arbitrary to me that two terms dont count as two presidencies if they're sequential, but that's beside the point in this case) there have certainly not been 46 presidents, because each president is a person and there have only been 45 people who have been president! Finnigami (talk) 06:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of how right you think you are, surely you can recognize that the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of sources refer to Biden as the 46th. You need substantial evidence to counter something like that, and logic alone is insufficient. --Golbez (talk) 03:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately I may have put this topic in the wrong place. There are two different ways to talk about such things. The way this article talks about it, in terms of providing abstract "numbering" for presidents, is technically correct and falls within convention. HOWEVER, the statements used in other articles, such as "Joe Biden is the 46th President of the United States" are simply, objectively, categorically incorrect. Finnigami (talk) 06:21, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

"HOWEVER, the statements used in other articles, such as "Joe Biden is the 46th President of the United States" are simply, objectively, categorically incorrect." And the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of sources disagree with you. We need more than "Finnigami's logic" to overturn that, regardless of how right you might be. If this is a fight you want to wager, godspeed, but this isn't the place to do it. --Golbez (talk) 14:29, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Actually, the sources agree with me, 100%. They all agree on the order of presidents, and who was who. And they all agree that there have been 45 total presidents. Finnigami (talk) 16:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Cleveland is counted as the 22nd & 24th president, due to having served non-consecutive terms. GoodDay (talk) 03:19, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that fact, which should be clear from the last sentence of my post, "Grover Cleveland is not two people!" The point remains that though they may have been 46 "presidencies" so far (although honestly it also seems arbitrary to me that two terms dont count as two presidencies if they're sequential, but that's beside the point in this case) there have certainly not been 46 presidents, because each president is a person and there have only been 45 people who have been president! I'll say it again: Grover Cleveland is not two people! Finnigami (talk) 06:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

You're wasting time on this, TBH. Should you doubt my word? Open this discussion up at Joe Biden's talkpage & see how it goes. GoodDay (talk) 16:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

To me it seems rather silly to suggest that because a discussion will most likely have a certain conclusion, that the discussion isn't even worth having. Finnigami (talk) 16:59, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

IMHO, you're wasting editors' time. GoodDay (talk) 17:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean its a waste of time to even discuss. That is a very dismissive view of other editor's inputs. Finnigami (talk) 17:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

While we're at it, Yellow Corporation's trucks were actually orange. Therefore the article should be renamed "Orange Corporation"...I guess? Woko Sapien (talk) 16:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

On the contrary, an accurate analogy would be to say that, even though the same of the company is "Yellow Corporation," the article should say that the trucks are orange. Which it should. That is what I am arguing for: that the article should describe reality, rather than simply aligning with an inaccurate tradition. But what you are insisting is analogous to changing the article to say that the trucks are yellow, even though they are orange, simply because of the standard official name "Yellow Corporation". Thank you for providin this illuminating analogy that supports my argument! Finnigami (talk) 16:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

And this article already clarifies that incongruity perfectly well:

Since the office was established in 1789, 45 men have served in 46 presidencies...Grover Cleveland served two non-consecutive terms and is therefore counted as the 22nd and 24th president of the United States, giving rise to the discrepancy between the number of presidencies and the number of individuals who have served as president.

I think GoodDay said it best, make a formal proposal if you feel that strongly about it. Otherwise, this isn't a constructive debate. Woko Sapien (talk) 17:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any possibility of a consensus forming for what's being proposed. Recommend (per WP:NOTFORUM) that this discussion be closed down. GoodDay (talk) 07:01, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Seconded. Woko Sapien (talk) 17:17, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.