Talk:List of largest empires

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Empires with sourced areas but without dates

I figured I'd make a section for empires where sources have been found for the maximum extent but with no year specified (meaning they can't be included in the list). My hope is that this will be helpful when people try to locate sources. Feel free to add entries of your own to the list below. TompaDompa (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can add those empires in the list, I would only noted in the time cell "unknown". Janos Neman (talk) 12:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about largest empires, as such they might not have been at the time they existed. Slatersteven (talk)

References

  1. ^ Obeng, J. Pashington (1996). Asante Catholicism: Religious and Cultural Reproduction Among the Akan of Ghana. BRILL. p. 20. ISBN 978-90-04-10631-4. An empire of a hundred thousand square miles, occupied by about three million people from different ethnic groups, made it imperative for the Asante to evolve sophisticated statal and parastatal institutions [...]
  2. ^ Iliffe, John (1995-08-25). Africans: The History of a Continent. Cambridge University Press. p. 143. ISBN 978-0-521-48422-0. At its peak around 1820 the empire embraced over 250,000 square kilometres [...]
  3. ^ a b c d e Cioffi-Revilla, Claudio; Rogers, J. Daniel; Wilcox, Steven P.; Alterman, Jai (2008). "Computing the Steppes: Data Analysis for Agent-Based Modeling of Polities in Inner Asia" (PDF). Proceedings of the 104th Annual Meeting of the American Political Scientific Association. pp. 8–9. Retrieved 2020-07-13.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
  4. ^ Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [T]he state of Đại Cồ Việt was established in the tenth century [...] The maximum extent of the territory at that time was around 110,000 square kilometres.
  5. ^ Bosin, Yury V. (2009), "Durrani Empire, Popular Protests, 1747–1823" (PDF), The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest, p. 1029, doi:10.1002/9781405198073.wbierp0481, ISBN 978-1-4051-9807-3, retrieved 2020-07-14
  6. ^ a b Bang, Peter Fibiger; Bayly, C. A.; Scheidel, Walter (2020-12-02). The Oxford World History of Empire: Volume One: The Imperial Experience. Oxford University Press. pp. 92–94. ISBN 978-0-19-977311-4.
  7. ^ Shillington, Kevin (2013-07-04). Encyclopedia of African History 3-Volume Set. Routledge. p. 733. ISBN 978-1-135-45670-2. The limits of the empire correspond approximately with the boundaries of the Chad Basin, an area of more than 300,000 square miles.
  8. ^ Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [W]hen Nguyễn Vietnam surrendered to France in the late nineteenth century the territory it claimed to control had more than tripled to over 370,000 square kilometres
  9. ^ Hart, Hornell (1948). "The Logistic Growth of Political Areas". Social Forces. 26 (4): 402. doi:10.2307/2571873. ISSN 0037-7732. In the Mediterranean area the earliest historic governments which extended their territory by major use of fleets were the Greek and the Phoenecian, reaching areas of approximately 250,000 square miles each
  10. ^ Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (1992). "Economic Diversity and Integration in a Pre-Colonial Indian Empire". World Archaeology. 23 (3): 336. ISSN 0043-8243. At its maximal extent the Vijayanagara empire encompassed some 360,000 square kilometers
  11. ^ Alcock, Susan E.; D'Altroy, Terence N.; Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (2001-08-09). Empires: Perspectives from Archaeology and History. Cambridge University Press. p. 85. ISBN 978-0-521-77020-0. The total spatial extent of the empire, not including the north coast, I estimate to have been some 320,000 square kilometers.

Vague complaint by an account with a single edit

Multiple empires doesnt have their size correct and is the only list with this type of problem: having stupid negacionist people editing the page as they want. The ADMs need to do something about this beccause wikien is becoming non-reliable Miguel Águia (talk) 10:40, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then edit it and add sources to back up your claims. Synorem (talk) 10:43, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, I am not a fan of this page for the same reason. You can’t even add anything otherwise it will get reverted by the same people, even if the source is reliable. Popayan1210 (talk) 02:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree - this page is more of a playground for editors pushing their own nationalist views than it is an encyclopedic article. I question its value as an article. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 15:54, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the one hand, yes: the value of this article is questionable as ranking empires by territorial size is subject to all kinds of uncertainties and subjectivities, resulting in presenting a seemingly-simple answer to a decidedly non-simple question. This is a problem inherent in the format: we cannot go into the nuances in a list like this. On the other hand, this seems to be a question that people want to know the answer to—the article gets a few thousand pageviews daily. As you say, it can be a playground for editors pushing their own nationalist views. If we got rid of it, chances are somebody else would recreate it, probably with a less rigorous approach. TompaDompa (talk) 15:19, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest this article should de deleted. A lot of the article's eligibility comes from Rein Taagepera's works and there are multiple sources that disprove Rein's assertion on some empire's sizes. Multiple sources have been suggested that show a different size here or there but they are not allowed because it would make it harder to make a list. The purpose is to make a list, sure, but why Rein's work? For example, there are multiple sources that point at a different size for the 1st,2nd and 3rd portuguese empire and yet, only Rein's size is used.
We are making a bigger disservice than service for having this article exist because multiple peope use this article for school, youtube videos, etc.
The article has to be renamed to "Size of empires" and each empire has to have multiple entries showing different sizes according to multiple sources.
The user @TompaDompa who has held an iron grip on this article, has to open his hand and help restructure this article into less of a d*ck measuring contest and more of an actual contribution to society.
~~ Ygglow (talk) 17:08, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you think the article should be deleted, the place to suggest that is at WP:AfD—though I think it unlikely that a consensus in favour of deletion will be found.
I'm guessing the question about why the article relies so heavily on Taagepera's work is rhetorical, seeing as you have been involved in talk page discussion here for years and should be well aware of the answer, but just in case somebody is unsure what the reason is: Wikipedia policy mandates that we use the WP:BESTSOURCES, and Taagepera's work consists of peer-reviewed scientific articles specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities—just about the highest-quality, most WP:RELIABLE sources we can get for something like this.
The list functioning or perhaps more accurately being viewed as a kind of competition between different empires is probably unavoidable as long as it is sorted or sortable by size. It actually used to be much, much worse in this regard back in 2016 before I cleaned it up by enforcing our WP:Core content policies (especially when it comes to sourcing), removing the "rank" column, and doing a bunch of additional tweaks and changes. I'm certainly not opposed to restructuring the article to make it (seem like) less of a matter of prestige; the current approach makes it far too appealing a target for WP:Nationalist editors as it is. We still need to make sure to comply with WP:NPOV by assessing source quality and applying WP:Due weight, of course. TompaDompa (talk) 20:19, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, I give you permission to restructure the article the way I said. You already have a list of empires, all you need to do is input the sizes according to each source. ~~ Ygglow (talk) 20:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand the specifics of your proposal. Would you care to elaborate? TompaDompa (talk) 20:40, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like many empires at their biggest extent are missing, for example the Serbian Empire and Gran Colombia, in which both are considered empires in the List of empires page. They weren't added to the list despite them being larger than many of the empires that are on the list just because "There is no reason to add them, they weren't notable/biggest at the time" Which is a lacking reason to not add accurate information to the page. The page is outright missing information and when any attempts are made to add it, one of the main editors reverts your edit and falsely accuses you of things you do not do. I tried to add Gran Colombia as it had over 3,000,000 sq km and was larger than many of the empires on the list but they reverted it just because, it wasn't for any good particular reason. Wikipedia is meant to give information not widely available and store it in an encyclopedia, I see no reason for many of these empires to not be included. Popayan1210 (talk) 14:55, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a list of largest empires, not empires at their greatest extent, that would be a new column added here List of largest empires. Slatersteven (talk) 15:04, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? It is for all intents and purposes a list of empires by size. TompaDompa (talk) 15:19, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There should be a definitive list of the top 100 largest empires (greatest extent) by land size (most accepted/recent estimate) for the full list of the largest empires in a seperate area and a list of notable empires at their largest extent where it currently is. Popayan1210 (talk) 15:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Less moaning more concrete proposals please, name one emo]pire we ger wrong. Slatersteven (talk) 15:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The surface of the Spanish Empire is wrong

The surface given in the article is 13.7 million km2.

If we add the surface of the Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas (11,500,073 km2) + the surface of the current Spain (506,030 km2) + the surface of the Philipines (300,000 km2) + the surface of the states of Nex Mexico (315,194), Texas (695,662 km2), Arizona (295,253 km2), Colorado (269,837 km2), Utah (219,887 km2), Nevada (286,367 km2), California (423,970 Km2) and Florida (170,312 km2) it is = 14,982,585 km2.

All these lands were Spain in 1790. In addition, at that moment, the Spanish Louisiana (2,140,000 km2), the territory of Nucta that reached modern-day Alaska, and other lands in Soth America like the Esequibo (159,500 km2) or parts of the Amazon were part of the Empire. Therefore, the data is clearly wrong.

What is more, these data are about the Spanish surface in the late XVIII century (1790), with the incorporation of Portugal (and Brazil) in 1580 the surface could had been even larger. Sepharad1 (talk) 22:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See the talk page archive. Slatersteven (talk) 09:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Umayyad should be on top of Abbasid and was bigger than Abbasid

Abbasid ruled from Libya to India but Umayyad ruled from Morroco to India and had the Iberian Peninsula and some of France also plus it had more in Turkey and if we count occupied areas it makes it easily bigger than Abbasid Wikipedia is requested to change the mistake and put Umayyad in top of ABBASID and about sources why is it even needed Umayyad litterally looks bigger in map Umayyad is obviously bigger I am a Muslim myself and saying this Again requested to change 58.145.185.253 (talk) 18:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The area of the sokoto empire is wrong

The sokoto caliphate had effective control of the sulatanate of Agadez in the north (in present Niger Republic) to Lokoja at the Niger confluence, from the west it stretched from Segou(emirate of hamdullahi),they had effective control on yorubaland thanks to the illorin emirate.to the east they had adamawa,this emirate alone was 400,000 sqkm so the whole empire cant be that same size,further northeast they had control of of most of western tchd and all the tchad lake wich is 1.95million square kilometers,i will be changing the size and providing sources My main one is the thesis of Murray last on the sokoto caliphate 85.192.74.198 (talk) 10:38, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would rather you presented the sources here. Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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