Talk:List of casinos in Puerto Rico

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Casino de Ponce

I restored the removal of Casino de Ponce from the List of casinos in Puerto Rico (here) by Eljohnson15 for several reasons:

The edit summary states "the Antiguo Casino de Ponce was a social club, not a gambling casino", however, the editor does not provide any cites that support that claim.
Also, though the edit summary says that it "was a social club, not a gambling casino", the focus of the Casino de Ponce article is on the building structure and not on a group a people, lending credence that Casino de Ponce was a structure and not the alleged social club claimed in the edit summary. For example, if it was a "social club", as claimed, then there would be a list of Casino de Ponce presidents, or of a controlling or administrative board of directors, or membership dues to be paid, etc. Since none of those are mentioned in the article, it is safe to assume that, unlike a group of people that meets where they can find a meeting place, Casino de Ponce was in fact a building that served the social needs of people, in much the same way as the other casinos in the list serve the social needs of people: for gambling, drinking, card playing, and socializing in general. Further, the article Casino de Ponce lists the three sites where Casino de Ponce was located, as it required larger and larger quarters for its various activities, but there is no mention of characteristics of a "club" such as its director.
Another fallacy of the removing editor deals with the invalid application of mutual exclusion. That is, even if Casino de Ponce was assumed to have been "a social club", that would not preclude it from also being a club of gamblers who met at their Casino de Ponce building to gamble and, thus, bringing Casino de Ponce within the scope of this list. The two (the social club and gamblers' club) are not mutually exclusive. Likewise, if it could be proven that Casino de Ponce was indeed a location, but for social gatherings, then that, in and of itself, would not preclude it from being also a location for gambling, especially since gambling is a social activity.
By calling it "social club", the edit summary is equating Casino de Ponce with an organization, that is, with a group of people. However, the subject of the Antiguo Casino de Ponce article is a building structure, a structure where people gathered, and exactly what this List of casinos in Puerto Rico includes: structures where people gather.
Casino de Ponce was built in the 19th century (1862) [it closed in 1932] (gambling was legalized in Nevada in 1931, but already existed for decades prior to 1931), exactly during the time when the term "casino" was synonymous with buildings where pleasurable activities took place, including dancing, music listening, sports, card playing, and gambling.^[1]
It is safe to assume that Casino de Ponce was, in fact, a gambling casino (albeit one where other activities also took place such as, perhaps, dancing, music, bands, eating, drinking, card playing, pool playing, etc.) because in 1913, when historian Eduardo Neumann Gandia wrote Verdadera y Autentica Historia de la Ciudad de Ponce, he makes numerous references to the Casino de Ponce (see pp. 21, 102, 116, 119, 264-270), at a time when the word "casino" was already being used to include places where gambling took place.
It is common WP practice to write articles that include both an organization and its facilities (building structure/s). For example, Ponce High School could be argued to be an article about the building, yet it includes a list of school principals, something that could be argued indicates it was "an organization", yet that doesn't do away with the fact that the article is about the building that is registered in the NRHP. Only when there is enough materials to split such articles into two distict articles (one about the organization and one about the building) do we do so (assuming, of course, they are both subjects are notable). Thus, we have Museo Castillo Serrallés (the organization) and [[[Castillo Serrallés]] (the building). This means that it would be normal for the article Antiguo Casino de Ponce to include some material about its occupants (as it does) within the primary focus of the article: a building where social (incluiding gambling) activities took place.

Mercy11 (talk) 03:19, 9 March 2023 (UTC) Mercy11 (talk) 03:19, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

Wow, long answer... There were High Society Social Clubs in Puerto Rico called "Casinos", most of these were created after the Spanish Law under the Ley de Libertad de Asociación de 1873. The most famous of these were the "Antiguo Casino de Puerto Rico", the Casino de Mayagüez (its still exists as a Social Club), and the Casino de Ponce. These Social organizations called Casinos were common in Spain as well, see Casino de Madrid. My family were members of the Club. They held dances and meetings, it was not a gambling casino in any sense of the word. Do you have any cite to prove your claim that it was a "gambling casino".

Links for Casino de Ponce being a social club: https://eladoquintimes.com/2022/04/05/ponce-historico-el-antiguo-casino-de-ponce/

Here is an article in spanish wikipedia that better explains what these social/cultural casinos where https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casino_cultural

El Johnson (talk) 16:02, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I agree with you we would need to be 100% categorically positive that it was a gambling casino to be included and I have reverted my own edit, with your last edit now standing again. Best regards, Mercy11 (talk) 17:36, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Gambling in America: An Encyclopedia of History, Issues, and Society. William N. Thompson. 2015. p.43. ISBN=9781610699808

[1] Gambling in America: An Encyclopedia of History, Issues, and Society. William N. Thompson. 2015. p.43. ISBN=9781610699808

[1]

Talk:List of casinos in Puerto Rico

Casino de Ponce

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