Talk:Lajjun

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Good articleLajjun has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 23, 2008Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on November 24, 2008.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that local legend in Lajjun, a district center in Palestine under the Abbasids, held that the spring that served as its primary water source sprang from a stone after Abraham struck it with his staff?

1948

Walid Khalidi has something about Lajjun in All That Remains. I don't have access to the full text, but I think User:Huldra does, so you might ask her to share it here (though she looks to be busy at Hittin right now. David Tal has only one line stating it was occupied by Israeli forces at the end of May [1]. I'll keep looking and add whatever I can here or in the article. I'm a little tired today though, having lacked sleep for the last three nights. So please forgive the hapharazardness of my interventions. ;) Tiamuttalk 13:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, looking really good now. So which of you wants to co-nom it for a DYK? Anyone? What's the hook going to be? Tiamuttalk 16:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll nominate it in a second. I think the hook should be something, on Lajjun's position as a district center in Palestine in early Ottoman times. Perhaps, did you know

"that the destroyed Palestinian village of Lajjun was the capital of a district in Palestine that bore its name, while it was under Ottoman rule?" Something along those lines. What do you think? --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

wait a few minutes, and I will give you the marriage of a princess in 1231! ;-D Huldra (talk) 16:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Great! Thanks for all the expansion. I just want to ask you, does Khalidi mention anything on the Bar Kokhba Revolt and what the village grew and paid taxes on in 1596? I saw it in the Jerusalemites source, but Khalidi is much more reliable. --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1596 taxes+pop. is added. And yeah; Khalidi mentions Bar Kokba revolt; basically the place was established as a result of its suppression. Will be adding it...Huldra (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks so much Huldra. --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:54, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think of something a little more whimsical?

...that local legend in Lajjun in the tenth century held that the spring which served as the town's primary water source sprang from a stone after Abraham struck it with his staff?

Great work though to both of you. And picking the hook I'll leave up to you Al Ameer son since you started the article to begin with. Tiamuttalk 17:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I´ll be signing out soon (and then I´ll be back working on the Cinema of Palestine -article: I have the two Palestinian Cinema-books on loan from out-of -town libraries (until early next month)...so I really should concentrate on that article (hint, hint!). I´ll also leave finding a hook for this article to al Almeer son...but what about using the fact that it was actually the emperor Hadrian that decided the position of what was to become the town? Just an idea. Anyway, with this, Hittin and Nabi Rubin, we haven´t done badly this week! Huldra (talk) 18:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Damn, it's gonna be hard to choose which hook now. Oh well, I'll just find a way to incorporate two or all of the three hooks into one. You guys could edit it however you like, I don't really care much. Good luck with Cinema of Palestin Huldra! Maybe you'll nominate it for GA when it's ready ;). Tiamut, you just gave me an idea. What about a "Culture" section for the article? I know there are two tombs/maqams for Ali al-Shafi and Ali ibn al-Jalal and together (spring tradition and tombs) we could have a good Culture section. I'm going to need to find info on those two men first though. Cheers everyone! --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Khalidi quote

Could I get the page number for Walid Khalidi's quote on the description of Lajjun's remains? --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added. Huldra (talk) 17:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Images

The article needs a picture or pictures of its remains or before its destruction. Palestine Remembered has some, but I'll have to wait for a reply by the author who I emailed recently for permission. Is there any other website we could find pictures in? --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maundrell and Robinson

Just FYI: I actually found the the Maundrell quote in Robinson; I had not recognised that it was Lajjun that Maundrell was referring to, if I had not read it in Robinson! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 02:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

About Kibbutz Megiddo

Hello, I am now working on Megiddo, Israel and from the sources I have, I found that the Kibbutz was first built on al-Lajjun and later the members of the Kibbutz moved to a nearby hill. If this is not in the article, do you think this small fact needs to be in the article?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:38, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The article touches on the kibbutz being built on Lajjun, but not the relocation. --Al Ameer (talk) 16:26, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Still the Kibbutz is pretty much some 10 meters from the old site of Lajjun, but I think it's an interesting fact, although now when I think about it, if someone want to know about Megiddo they could find it in the article of Megiddo.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:49, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Addition to "External Links"

Would there be any opposition to add an external link from YouTube.com about the village of Lajjun, and an interview with one of its old-timers? The video can be seen here. Just curious.Davidbena (talk) 01:04, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think it could be added.....but be aware that not all the info is correct! ....they say that Lajjun had 77000 dunams of land. But in the last census, from 1945, Lajjun was counted with many other places, largest of which was Umm al-Fahm, and together they all had about that amount of land. (Hmm, this article could do with some updating...) Huldra (talk) 23:06, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Aerial photo

I uploaded an aerial photo from 1944 to commons. Do you think it has value as an illustration ? File:Aerial photo with Lajjun and Tell Megiddo, 1944.jpg trespassers william (talk) 15:35, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The aerial photo does not add very much, and, in fact, would distract from the article.Davidbena (talk) 19:33, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it could possibly be between the maps? This picture was a great find! It could possibly be moved up, into the infobox? Huldra (talk) 23:06, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The photo mentioned by Huldra seems better.Davidbena (talk) 03:29, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mamluk historian

I saw in a book by Ze'vi Ilan that another writer of Arabic in the 1370s has mentioned the Maqam Ibrahim in Lajjun. There was not much juice in that quote but it turns out that the book in Arabic is hanging as a ripe fruit if you google : "تاريخ صفد" سهيل زكار. It mentions لجون eleven times, probably some of them merely as a nahyia. Google translate is useless here, but maybe one of you will see it worthwhile to request a translation of those paragraphs. Author info:[2] [3]. trespassers william (talk) 23:25, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to break down what info this author might add. The editot's introduction has more. The strange thing is that the text gives what looks like dates in the 800s AH, while the editor Zakkar, and B Lewis, date him circa 780 AH. Who can read Arabic and help here?


Here is what the primary text has about Lajjun:


Seventh "(Amal" of Safd:
Lajjun
(seat, base, a rule) of Marj ibn Amir
is of / belongs to AshirYaman (elsewhere in two words or only Yaman), like all of Marj ibn Amir
And in it the Maqam of Khalil Ibrahim peace be upon him (of the shrines / places to visit)
And in it (the city?) the terrace of the sultan, and a road-khan great and important, at which travellers stay
العمل السابع : مرج بني عامر ، وبه ولايتان : اللجون ، وجينين ، فاللجون بلد قديم ، وهو قاعدة المرج ، وهو من عشيريمن ، وكذلك جميع مرج بني عامر ، وبه مقام الخليل إبراهيم عليه‌السلام من المزارات ، وبه مصطبة السلطان ، وخان سبيل عظيم الشّان ، يأوي إليه المسافرون.
and Jenin
وأمّا جينين فبلد قديم أيضا وبه خان سبيل عظيم الشّان ، لا يكاد يوجد مثله في الحسن وكثرة المياه ، وبه سوق كبير ، وبالمرج قرى أمهات ، هي عمدة البلاد الصفدية في الغلات ، كزرعين ، والفوله ، ولها قلعة حسنة وبتيتين ، وبجبلها مقام دحية الكلبي صاحب رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وسلم ورضي‌الله‌عنه ، من المزارات المقصودة ، وبجينين مركز درب الشام ومصر ، لا يكاد يخلو من البريديّة في كلّ يوم ، يمر ، على جينين من التجّار والمسافرين أنواع كثيرة.


====


The naaib of An-Nasir Faraj and that after him:
النائب التاسع والتسعون الأمير زين الدين الهيذياني ، نزل من القلعة ، ولاقى السلطان في اللجون ، ولبس خلعته ، ودخل نائبا إلى صفد في شهر ذي الحجّة سنة أربع عشرة وثمانمائة ، وهو آخر نوّاب الملك النّاصر فرج بن برقوق رحمه‌الله تعالى ، ولمّا توجّه الملك النّاصر خلف شيخ ونوروز ، وصل أرض اللجون ، ووقعت الوقعة هرب الملك النّاصر إلى دمشق ، وجاء دمرداش ونكباي إلى صفد ، وتوجّهوا الجميع إلى دمشق ، ورجع شيخ ونوروز ، ومن معهما إلى دمشق ، ومسكوا الملك النّاصر ، وقتلوه بدمشق ، وأجمعوا رأيهم أن يكون الخليفة أبو الفضل العبّاس بن محمد سلطان ، واستمرّ نوروز نائب الشام ، وتوجّه شيخ صحبة الخليفة إلى القاهرة ، ثمّ إنّ الله أراد ما أراد ، وتسلطن شيخ نهار الإثنين مستهل شعبان سنة خمس عشر وثمانمائة.


====
(who?) built or rebuilt the khan al lajjun, and bridge dayila, and other stuff all over the province (and gave the author his job ?) (just before 837 / 1433 ??) (and the author wrote circa 780) (in a list that starts [ ذكر باقي النّوّاب بصفد المحروسة بعد قشتمر المنصوري النّائب السادس والأربعون بعد المائة سنة : ])


النائب الثالث عشر بعد المائة المقر الزّيني مقبل الدّوادار ، دخل إلى صفد نهار الخميس رابع شعبان المكرّم سنة تاريخه ، حاصر القلعة ونقب نقب عظيم ، وجاءه منجنيق من دمشق ، وجاء بطوغان الزّردكاش من مصر وسبك مدفع ثلاثة وعشرين قنطار ، واستمرّ الحصار إلى أن يحضر نائب غزّة يونس ، وكان حضوره في ثاني عشر رمضان ، وأرسلوا من القلعة طلبوا الأمان من السلطان ، وفي ثامن عشر رمضان نزل نائب القلعة ، وتوجّه إلى القاهرة ، وعاد جوابه نهار الإثنين رابع شوّال بالأمان ، ونزل اينال من القلعة ، بعد أن نزل قماشه وحريمه ، فلمّا دخل دار السّعادة ، مسكوه ومعه جماعة ، وعادوا إلى القلعة وجماعته ومشاه ، وجهزوا يعرفوا ، وأتلف النائب من المشاة نحو ثلاثين نفر ، واستمر ينال في القلعة ، فلمّا كان ثامن عشرين من سنة تاريخه ، حضر بريدي من القاهرة وعلى يده مرسوم شريف بانفاذ قضاء الله تعالى فيهم فشنق اينال ، ودواداره وأمير آخوره ، وعلّقوا على الأبراج ، وجهزوا المماليك والمشاة الذين كانوا معه ممسوكين صحبة البريدي إلى القاهرة ، واستمرّ اينال العثماني حاجب الحجّاب بصفد ، فلمّا كان ثامن شهر الحجّة سنة تاريخه ، أعادوا المماليك من القاهرة مقطوعي الأيدي ، وأمّا أمير مقبل فإنّه استمرّ نائب بصفد ، وعمّر مزرعة جب يوسف عليه‌السلام وبناها خان للسّبيل ، وعمّر قيساريّة للتّجّار ، وعمّر فوقها أطباق وعمّر اسطبل ، وعمّر مزرعة عكّا والسّيده ومعصريّه المعشوقة والحمّام بها ، وعمّر دكاكين بالنجارين عوض ما كان بها من البيوت ، وعمّر بركة ماء ما بني مثلها قط في صفد ، وساق الذخيرة إليها ، وأحضر جرن كبير عظيم من الجبل على العجل ، واركزه بالنجارين ، وعمله للسّبيل ، وساق إليه ماء العين الذي بالميضئة ، وعمل له ثعبان ماء في سبع نحاس ، وساق من البركة إلى الجرن المذكور ، وبنى قيساريّة على جانب البركة من الشّرق ، وعمّر سجن وسوى للبركة مسكنا ، وبركة القيومية وفعل آثار حسنة بصفد ، وعمر جسر المقطع ، وخان اللجون ، وعمر طبرنا بمرج ابن عامر ، بعد أن كانت خراب دمنة مقطع الحرامية ، وأوقف وقوفات بصفد ، وأيضا على سيدي شعيب نبي الله عليه وعلى نبيّنا الصلاة والسلام ، وتوفّي نهار الجمعة تاسع عشرين شهر ربيع الأول سنة سبع وثلاثين وثمانمائة ، وكانت له جنازة عظيمة ما شهر بمثلها في صفد ، وكانت مدّة إقامته بصفد إحدى عشرة سنة وسبعة أشهر وخمسة وعشرين يوما ، ودفن بجوار الشيخ صارم الدين الخالدي رحمهما‌الله تعالى.
النائب الرابع عشر بعد المائة اينال الشبشماني ، دخل إلى صفد نهار الخميس ثامن عشر جمادى الأول ، سنة سبع وثلاثين وثمانمائة.


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end of book excperts
====
Annexes with possible quoters and quotees
====
In annex 4, from the book:
كتاب نخبة الدهر في عجائب البر والبحر
by al-Dimashki
(Again, Lajjun with Ashir and hawa and Yemen, and people of nazareth and of Kafr Kana /jenin is small)
ومن أعمال صفد مدينة اللجون وهي مضافة إلى العشير والهوى واليمن وأهل الناصرة ، كما أهل كفركنا قيس ولهذا القسم أيضا جينين وهي مدينة صغيرة ولها عمل


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Annex 5, from the book:
كتاب كوكب الملك وموكب الترك
by
لخليل بن شاهين الظاهري (٨١٣ ـ ٨٧٣ ه‍)


(Lajjun subdistrtict)
الثاني عشر عمل اللجون قرية في جهة الغرب عن بيسان ، وبه مقام الخليل إبراهيم عليه‌السلام.
(Kawkab SD ??)
الثالث عشر عمل قدس ، وتقدّم أنّ السواد وبيسان خرجا عنها ، وقلعة كوكب قال فيها العماد الأصفهاني : راسية راسخة شامخة ، وقلعة الطّور على جبل الطّور ، الذي هناك بناها العادل ثمّ تغلبت عليها الفرنج فهدموها.
====
trespassers william (talk) 17:39, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

About Maximianopolis, Bar Kochba Revolt and Legio VI Ferrata, April 17, 1948, and demographics

Hello,

I just translated this (quite impressive) article into French. Five remarks:

  1. The name Maximianopolis is said to be "in honor of Maximian, [Diocletian's] co-emperor": according to Cline, it could either be Galerius = Galerius Maximianus (possible founder of the city in 293-296, following T. D. Barnes, "Eusebius and Legio", Scripta Classica Israelica, #27,‎ 2008, p. 59-66).
  2. The arrival of the Roman legion is said to have occurred "after the Bar Kochba Revolt": several sources (following Lifshitz) put it sooner.
  3. Only Legio VI Ferrata is mentioned: several sources (Edward Dabrowa, ISBN 978-3-515-05809-4, p. 15 ; Benjamin H. Isaac, ISBN 90-04-10736-3, p. 203) give Legio II Traiana Fortis as its probable predecessor.
  4. The paragraph about April 17, 1948 is based on a source dated April 16.
  5. There is no source for the figures of the population "at the end of 1940" (1,103) or in 1948, in the infobox (1,208).

That's all! Not so many!

--Fanfwah (talk) 07:30, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Legio merge

Any objection to merging this article with Legio? They are exactly the same site. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a general rule, I don't see any advantage in merging substantial articles about towns and the archaeological excavations of Greek or Roman remains there. The archaeological dig and related topics cover only a small portion of the history discussed in the article about the town, but the article is already fairly detailed and has additional potential for expansion. As a section of this article, it would probably be too detailed and require trimming—in other words, it would be a candidate for splitting out into its own topic, which is what it is now. Additionally, we usually host articles about Greek and Roman sites under the names by which they were known in antiquity; but most of this article postdates that, and would not make sense under that title. So while there is certainly overlap between the articles, they are probably better off kept separate, as they currently are. P Aculeius (talk) 13:46, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that's a good rationale for keeping the pages separate. Richard Nevell (talk) 23:25, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the pages should not be merged. Legio and Lajjun are two separate entities some 1.5 km apart. רמרום (talk) 10:43, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1940s map of Lajjun, with modern roads in blue
1908 map of the same area
Megiddo prison, on top of the Legio church ruins, is in the core area of Lajjun per the map here. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:17, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This 2002 article from Yotam Tepper, the primary modern archaeologist of the region, shows the border of the area of Legio (see his Fig. 1 on p.238) and an old photo of the town of Lajjun with Roman columns sticking out of the ground (see his Fig. 11 on p.241). Onceinawhile (talk) 17:56, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Legio (the Roman camp), is located on the Manakh region 1.5 km from Lajjun. The prison is located 1.6 km south-east from Lajjun. Lajjun is located 0 kms from Lajjun. they are two separate places although they share a common etimology. רמרום (talk) 06:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We also should consider a merge of Maximianopolis (Palestine) into one of these articles. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:51, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest merging it into Legio, since apart from the list of titular bishops, the only information about it concerns it in antiquity. The list of bishops probably would be an odd fit for Lajjun, and could be viewed as an extension of the town's Roman origins, though a section hatnote to the list at Legio might be appropriate. However, if others disagree, I don't think it would do much harm at Lajjun either. At the very least, I think it's worth preserving at one or the other. P Aculeius (talk) 19:06, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agreeרמרום (talk) 06:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not convinced these should merge. It was said that these are the same place. By that logic they are the same as Tel Megiddo. Lajjun includes two suburbs (Lajjun esh-sharqiya and el Gharbiya). There are also the ruins of the Khan. These make Lajjun spread over a wide area. Now the Classical and Late Antiquity ruins are also spread across a wide area. Kfar Othnai is identified as the Megiddo Prison. Maximianopolis is located at the industrial zone of Kibbutz Megiddo, just north of the core of Lajjun. The Roman base is located a km to the east. There's also an amphitheatre mid-way between them and Tel Megiddo. There is some, but not complete overlap between Lajjun, Maximianopolis, Legio, Kfar Othnai and Megiddo. Excluding the latter, we are talking about stitching over 3 square km of land into one settlement unit.
But We are dealing with a cluster of sites in a general area, whose natural settings are pretty clear: a trade and military route junction.
Since there are so many toponyms, I think it would not be wise to cluster all of these together in a single place. And what would be the proper name of this place? This map in Tepper's recent report of the digging in Legio shows that we have different toponyms for different places. Compare to this map of the legion camp and with [https://palopenmaps.org/en/maps?basemap=9&overlay=pal1940&toggles=places%7Csplit#14.84,35.1798,32.5763 the 1940s map of Lajjun area).
I think that it would be good to separate these from each other. We already have Tel Megiddo separate, as it should be. Lajjun mostly refers to the history is this location from the 7th century onwards. Maximianopolis and Kfar Othnai are two different settlements that may have existed at the same time. Legio is a Roman base, also contemporary with them. To push together an area spreading over 3 square km, with numerous toponyms referring to places different in location and time would be too reaching in my opinion. To generally grip them together into one location would seem to be too much of a WP:SYNTH--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:33, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Bolter21 רמרום (talk) 06:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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