Talk:John Constantine

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Former good article nomineeJohn Constantine was a Language and literature good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 30, 2012Good article nomineeNot listed

Bisexuality and Spymaster

To clarify before the discourse: John Constantine is bisexual, seeing as he has had physical and emotional (in the romantic sense) relationships with both men and women. Erasing his identity is an act of profound disrespect against him and other people with that sexual orientation. Regardless of the use he makes of the advantages of his attraction to both genders, this does not mean that he is faking it or just engaging in same sex relationships only for benefit or only with a specific purpose.

Not to open this whole can of worms again, but I'm really hesitant to include Constantine as a homosexual or bisexual. It's not that I have any problem with LGBT characters, I just don't know if someone who ONLY sleeps with a man for the sake of an elaborate con- with revenge and monetary gain as the end goal, rather than physical or emotional pleasure- should legitimately count as gay. This came to mind after a recent issue of Iron Man, where one of Tony Stark's employees- supposedly a gay man who was in a relationship with one of Stark's main scientists- turned out to be the villainous Spymaster in disguise. Spymaster is not gay (or at least, it's never been even remotely hinted that he is), and I wouldn't personally consider him gay because he only entered into relations with another man as a part of his cover. There's no indication that Spymaster is really attracted to men or that he enjoys their company in his personal life, and I don't think something someone does as part of a ruse should define their sexuality. For the same reason, I feel that this article should at least consider the possibility that Constantine may be a straight man who did what he had to do for the sake of his scheme.74.90.224.4 (talk) 02:17, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As shown, cited and referenced in the article, Constantine openly references girlfriends and boyfriends in original source. As it stands, that view is just a personal theory against the published canon material.201.86.212.143 (talk)
Except, as people have mentioned before, the "boyfriends" quote was mentioned a total of one time, in a non-canonical issue written by "John Smith." It was also basically just a throwaway line and I'm not sure how seriously it was meant to be taken. The only other evidence of his bisexuality was from the Stanley Manor storyline, in which his homosexual relations were part of a scheme. Again, I'm not homophobic and I'd have no problem with Constantine being bisexual, I just genuinely don't think the evidence supports it. If you don't count Spymaster as bisexual (and most people wouldn't) I don't see why you'd count John Constantine.74.90.224.4 (talk) 22:49, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Another example that's comparable is Electro. One issue of Spider-Man by Mark Millar had a throwaway line where Electro implied that he'd gone gay in prison. It was clearly meant as a joke- and IMO, a rather stupid, tasteless, and offensive one, at that- and (thankfully) no other writer after Millar ever brought up the issue of Electro's possible homosexuality/bisexuality again. I don't think anyone counts Electro as a gay or bisexual character (Wikipedia apparently doesn't), and the throwaway line about his sexuality was at least in a canon story by a well-known writer. The one about Constantine's sexuality was in a story that explicity isn't canon, by a writer who was most likely using a psuedonym.74.90.224.4 (talk) 08:43, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It was published in the Hellblazer comic. How is it not canonical? 98.11.16.203 (talk) 03:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

John Smith, his real name, has written lots of pretentious guff for UK comics, particularly in the early 1990s, though he's hardly improved since then. However, it was a one-off story, far as I know Smith hasn't written for Hellblazer since. There's a mention of "boyfriends" but John's had serious relationships with several women through the course of the story, never been portrayed as attracted to, or in a relationship with, a man.

Constantine is heterosexual. One sentence by a hack writer who only did one issue, shouldn't contradict the entirety of the rest of the comic's history. I don't hate bisexuals, cos I am one, and qualifying as such requires a real attraction to both sexes. This has never been shown in Hellblazer. 188.29.164.79 (talk) 08:42, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rick Veitch

The first named appearance of Constantine was drawn by Rick Veitch, inked by John Totleben. This source: http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050228/NEWS/502280387&SearchID=73201566900517 indicates he is a co-creator, so I been bold and added him as such. I don't have Hellblazer issues handy but I assume that the co-creation credits are for Moore, Bissette and Totleben only, matching DC's offer of movie royalties to those 3 only? I accept that is a case against listing him as co-creator. On the other hand, when Moore refused his movie royalties he re-distributed them to Bissette, Totleben AND Veitch suggesting that Moore considers him a co-creator. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yugyug (talk • contribs) 13:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC) +|||||||||||||||||||||||||+ (talk) 13:14, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Strangled brother?

Ok, so it's a comic, and there's magic to boot, but an unborn child strangling another? Should the text instead read that Constantine's brother was strangled by Constantine's umbilical cord? 67.188.201.40 (talk) 08:24, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While I haven't read this part of Hellblazer yet, the same thing happened in New X-Men where an unborn Xavier strangled his twin. So, it's not that unheard of in the world of comics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.98.199.50 (talk) 21:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Constantine strangled "Golden Boy", his brother, with his umbilical cord, in the womb. "Deliberately", or as deliberately as an unborn child can commit murder. Of course, John doesn't remember it. It's the cause of fate going the wrong way. Doubtless some magical influence caused it, somewhere, but I don't think we ever find out exactly what. 188.29.165.20 (talk) 16:11, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Two Versions

There are now two versions of Constantine. One in in the Vertigo Universe--Hellblazer-- which is disconnected to the DC Universe where he has aged in real time. The other in the DC Universe--where he doesn't appreciably age and appears in Justice League Dark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.73.126.16 (talk) 04:11, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:John Constantine/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Nicknack009 (talk · contribs) 13:56, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is my first attempt at reviewing a good article candidate, and I have only skimmed the article so far, but here are a few comments based on that superficial reading.

Lead:

  • Is Constantine "also known as Hellblazer"? I haven't read the comic for ages, but I don't recall him ever being referred to by that name - it's just the title of the comic.

Creation and conception:

  • The photo caption says "with writer Alan Moore saying that he always wanted to create a character that looked like Sting", but this is incompatible with the text of the section (and the cited reference), which says he created Constantine because the artists wanted to draw a character who looked like Sting. Also, is it at all necessary to include Sting's middle names, or indeed his real name at all, in this caption?
  • "The policy was reversed in 2011" - what policy? The stuff about Constantine appearing in Justice League Dark in 2012 seems totally out of place in a section about how he was originally created, and would perhaps be more appropriately placed in the "Other appearances" or "Other versions" sections.

Fictional character biography:

  • "After the death" is inappropriate as a sub-section heading. Readers often use headings and subheadings to skim through the article, looking for a particular piece of information that interests them, and this subheading is meaningless unless you've read the preceding subsection.

Other appearances:

  • Since the previous section is a "fictional character biography", with everything reconstructed into a chronology, rather than a survey of his appearances in Hellblazer, this section is not quite coherent within the structure of the article. It also needs a cleanup. Some of the points, the Oliver Queen and Shade the Changing Man ones in particular, assume a knowledge of the DC Universe and its characters that the general reader does not necessarily have, the appearance of a character who looks like Alan Moore in Hellblazer is not another appearance of John Constantine, and "mentions" are not appearances.

Hope that's something to be getting on with. --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:56, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Judged on the Good Article criteria:
    • Well written: there are issues with the article structure and the level of knowledge assumed of the reader, so it fails this criterion.
    • Factually accurate and verifiable: I have raised a couple of issues of factual accuracy, so fails this criterion.
    • Broad in its coverage: pass.
    • Neutral: pass
    • Stable: Has undergone a major revision by a single editor over the course of September, and these edits seem to have been accepted without any major dispute, so that seems to be a pass.
    • Ilustrated: pass. --Nicknack009 (talk) 14:04, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]


* A small addition to this- there appear to be several instances of weasel words sneaking into some of the descriptions, which would need some cleanup. Also, some of the refs need to be put into the proper format of (ie, cite web, cite book, rather than bare links). Finally, the plot summaries probably need a small trim, and possibly more references (easiest to reference the trades, rather than issues to avoind over-reffing). But, I should add- this seems very close, and only needs a little more work! NOTE - I edited the related article Hellblazer to GA standard, and therefore do have a bias in this instance, and therefore have only provided advice, and not a review. Benny Digital Speak Your Brains 13:10, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I came across this article not knowing it was a FA candidate. Off the bat, the sourcing is atrocious (lots of fansite sourcing, incomplete reference information, dead links, and something all three in the same instance) and there's way too much in-universe information. In my opinion, this article needs a complete overhaul. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:33, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up After further examination of the article and after noting that it was nominated at GAN by an anonymous IP with only two previous edits to the article, I'd recommend a quick fail of this nomination. WesleyDodds (talk) 14:58, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Failing per Wesley's concerns. Wizardman 00:31, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I know. Awful, isn't it?
188.29.165.72 (talk) 17:58, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Warning

Edit warring is not going to help with the GA nomination! Wesleydodds does have a good point on the level of cruft in some sections, and I am sure that if you both discuss a reasonable middle ground, rather than reverting eachother's edits, this article might actually be in with a good chance of making GA! Now, in the politest possible terms, SORT IT OUT!!! Benny Digital Speak Your Brains 08:28, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just the answer I needed

The page's plot really needs major trimming, but the fancruft's almost dissolved. I advice NOT to touch the Powers and Abilities and Media section too much. The Power section musn't be touched, especially the examples because Constantine is marked as a mage, but I've read some Hellblazers and he doesn't used much magic, that's why the examples needs to stay to make a clear descriptions of what magic he can do. Wesley removed much of the important stuffs in the OTHER MEDIA section and made horrendous grammar writings, everything about this fictional character needs to count. I'm doing what i can for the plot but i'm gonna need real help from pros and experts of Hellblazer. Godzilladude123 (talk) 09:27, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I removed material that was not supported by reliable secondary sources. If secondary sources do not comment on something, then it's not noteworthy. The Powers and abilities section is based entirely on the comics themselves, which aren't reliable sources since they are works of fiction and fiction is malleable. The entire section should be excised unless we can find an out-of-universe secondary source (a scholarly paper or a book about the history of comics or something along those lines) that analyzes the depiction of the character's abilities. Also, I am unaware of any grammatical errors I might have made, but if there were any, I apologize; I tend to fix my mistakes rather quickly. WesleyDodds (talk) 14:18, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent write-up in The Vulture

See here This would make a good source but I don't have the time to add it. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:41, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

papa midnight john Constantine

Any explanation? Who is he? Martin burd (talk) 01:50, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look [[1]]. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:15, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Read "Original Sins", the collection of the first few issues of Hellblazer. Papa Midnight was in the first story to run in Hellblazer. He came back in some later ones. He's basically a voodoo gangster, who makes a lot of money and seemingly owns his own tower in New York. He runs a nightclub, among other things. Of course after tangling with Constantine in a later story, things don't end well for him. 188.29.165.20 (talk) 16:14, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures

Could someone please explain why there is a picture of a dude cosplaying, but not a picture of Matt Ryan as Constantine? john k (talk) 14:11, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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first appearance

when did John first appeared? in Swamp Thing Vol. 2 No. 25 (June 1984)? or The Saga of Swamp Thing #37 (June 1984)? What is the difference between these two books? I'm confused about the different statements in the article. 89.0.1.25 (talk) 15:36, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Accuracy questioned re: Johanna Constantine on TV

This article makes two dubious assumptions regarding Johanna's appearance in the upcoming Sandman TV series. First is the claim Jenna Coleman is playing two characters by that name. There has been no indication of this. Second is the statement "in a main capacity". Coleman only filmed for a few weeks and stated in interviews that she had wrapped the role before she was officially announced as having been cast. She has spent the spring of 2021 filming another movie and working on her own TV series, The War Rooms. More likely her appearance will be minor. This too is supposition - point being we cannot say how much of a role she will have in the series. 70.73.90.119 (talk) 17:57, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious statement in the intro

“Constantine is notable for the fact that some of the people who wrote his stories have claimed to see him apparently showing up in real life despite him being a fictional character.”

The elephant in the room aside, is he really “notable” for this? 138.78.225.88 (talk) 02:26, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion to remove Real Life appearance section.

Ah Yes!, i too saw him. such a bullshit smh. These are just pure advertising tactics of writers to promote their content. but the question is why are we promoting this FANPOV. the real life appearance section should be removed entirely. RamaKrishnaHare (talk) 15:34, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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